Question

[PaleHorse]

I was wondering if any of you know of an Adventist pastor or theologian that teaches drinking alcoholic beverages is biblically sound?

Thank you in advance.

[Cliff2]

I was wondering if any of you know of an Adventist pastor or theologian that teaches drinking alcoholic beverages is biblically sound?

Thank you in advance.

I do not know any that do teach that drinking alcoholic beverages can be supported from the Bible.

I do know of an ex SDA minister who was put out of the ministry for drinking but am still not aware of him at any stage promoting the drinking of them.

[PaleHorse]

I do not know any that do teach that drinking alcoholic beverages can be supported from the Bible.

I do know of an ex SDA minister who was put out of the ministry for drinking but am still not aware of him at any stage promoting the drinking of them.
TO Cliff2 --> I don't know of any either. I ask the question only because many in the "reform" movement seem to advocate drinking alcoholic beverages. With that being the case, it would seem logical that there would be a "reform" pastor or theologian that would lend weight for this belief in the movement.

TO Reformed Adventists --> Are there any pastors/theologians that advocate the drinking of alcoholic beverages?

[PaleHorse]

In light of not getting a response (even after the question has been viewed 26 times as of this post) I can then only assume that there aren't any in an actual, offical leadership role that condone the imbibing of alcohol. This is as I expected.

[awesumtenor]

I ask the question only because many in the "reform" movement seem to advocate drinking alcoholic beverages.

Name some; point out where they have advocated such. Be specific.

In His service,
Mr. J

[StormyOne]

In light of not getting a response (even after the question has been viewed 26 times as of this post) I can then only assume that there aren't any in an actual, offical leadership role that condone the imbibing of alcohol. This is as I expected.
If it is what you expected, the purpose of the question was what?

[BondGirl]

Well I don't know about "Pastors" - but I know that I am SDA - and I interpret Wine to mean "WINE" - not "grape juice". I drink a glass of wine every now and then for my "stomach sake".... In other words.... To either "settle" my stomach, or when I have a sickness/cold. Just like the Bible commanded....

[PaleHorse]

Name some; point out where they have advocated such. Be specific.

In His service,
Mr. J
I cannot name some for that would be considered a violation of the rules; I don't want to inadvertantly flame anyone.

[PaleHorse]

If it is what you expected, the purpose of the question was what?
The purpose of the question was simple; since I know that I do not know everything I posed the question just to ensure the point.
But the lack of an answer to this question does prompt another - but I will consider a few things before posting it.

[awesumtenor]

I cannot name some for that would be considered a violation of the rules; I don't want to inadvertantly flame anyone.

Are you saying there are pastors and theologians employed by the Adventist church who have advocated the consumption of alcohol in this forum? If the answer is yes, then your pointing out where they did so, would not be flaming; it would be acknowledgement of something already in the public record.

But just because you may know of individuals who may imbibe does not mean that they advocate that everyone should do as they do nor does it mean that their doing so has anything to do with their not having a conservative bent or that it is something taught and advocated by any wing of this church.

Guilt by association games can be construed as flaming too...and I am sure that you never inadvertantly flame anyone... it's always something you do with malice aforethought with specific intent to defame and discredit... but I digress...

In His service,
Mr. J

[PaleHorse]

Well I don't know about "Pastors" - but I know that I am SDA - and I interpret Wine to mean "WINE" - not "grape juice". I drink a glass of wine every now and then for my "stomach sake".... In other words.... To either "settle" my stomach, or when I have a sickness/cold. Just like the Bible commanded....
1 Timothy 5:23 - Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

But please consider:
Isa. 65:8 - Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all." This wine is "in the cluster," or fresh from the grape. It is a blessing, but not the fermented wines or alcoholic beverages.

We both know that healing is most certainly a blessing, but the above verse is clear that the wine that has the blessing is the one that is "new wine found in the cluster". When we couple this information with the findings of modern medicine, that alcohol turns acidic in the stomach, we understand for most stomach ailments doctors will tell their patients to abstain from drinking any alcohol. As an aid to digestion, on rare occasions, I can see where the additional acid could be a good thing - but for an ulcer it would most certainly be a bad thing and harmful to the patient.

Of course, I'm not trying to be argumentative but just trying to provide some information.

Thank you

[SnowBird77]

1 Timothy 5:23 - Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

But please consider:
Isa. 65:8 - Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all." This wine is "in the cluster," or fresh from the grape. It is a blessing, but not the fermented wines or alcoholic beverages.

We both know that healing is most certainly a blessing, but the above verse is clear that the wine that has the blessing is the one that is "new wine found in the cluster". When we couple this information with the findings of modern medicine, that alcohol turns acidic in the stomach, we understand for most stomach ailments doctors will tell their patients to abstain from drinking any alcohol. As an aid to digestion, on rare occasions, I can see where the additional acid could be a good thing - but for an ulcer it would most certainly be a bad thing and harmful to the patient.

Of course, I'm not trying to be argumentative but just trying to provide some information.

Thank youNew Testament vs. Old Testament.

Unsettled stomach vs Ulcerated stomach.

That's clear.

[PaleHorse]

New Testament vs. Old Testament.

Unsettled stomach vs Ulcerated stomach.

That's clear.
So our bodies, and how they work, changed somehow between the OT and the NT?

[Vaudois]

So our bodies, and how they work, changed somehow between the OT and the NT?

Along those same lines of illogic, this was the advice of a Jew to half Jew. Nothing about Gentiles at all.

If one looks for loop-holes, one can justify anything and deem themselves quite religious.

[awesumtenor]

1 Timothy 5:23 - Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

But please consider:
Isa. 65:8 - Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all." This wine is "in the cluster," or fresh from the grape. It is a blessing, but not the fermented wines or alcoholic beverages.

We both know that healing is most certainly a blessing, but the above verse is clear that the wine that has the blessing is the one that is "new wine found in the cluster". When we couple this information with the findings of modern medicine, that alcohol turns acidic in the stomach, we understand for most stomach ailments doctors will tell their patients to abstain from drinking any alcohol. As an aid to digestion, on rare occasions, I can see where the additional acid could be a good thing - but for an ulcer it would most certainly be a bad thing and harmful to the patient.

Of course, I'm not trying to be argumentative but just trying to provide some information.

Thank you

Grapes can ferment on the vine; that is why when one was set apart for God's service by a Nazirite vow he was not allowed to eat grapes:

Num 6:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate [themselves] to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate [themselves] unto the LORD: Num 6:3 He shall separate [himself] from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. Num 6:4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.
While 'new wine' is found "in the cluster" the cluster is not guaranteed to have new wine in it.

In His service,
Mr. J

[StormyOne]

Luke 11:38-49 The Pharisee was surprised to see that Jesus didn't wash before the meal. (39) The Lord said to him, "You Pharisees clean the outside of cups and dishes. But inside you are full of greed and evil. (40) You fools! Didn't the one who made the outside make the inside too? (41) Give what is inside as a gift to the poor, and then everything will be clean for you. (42) "How horrible it will be for you Pharisees! You give God one-tenth of your mint, spices, and every garden herb. But you have ignored justice and the love of God. You should have done these things without ignoring the others. (43) "How horrible it will be for you Pharisees! You love to sit in the front seats in the synagogues and to be greeted in the marketplaces. (44) How horrible it will be for you! You are like unmarked graves. People walk on them without knowing what they are." (45) One of the experts in Moses' Teachings said to him, "Teacher, when you talk this way, you insult us too." (46) Jesus said, "How horrible it will be for you experts in Moses' Teachings! You burden people with loads that are hard to carry. But you won't lift a finger to carry any of these loads. (47) "How horrible it will be for you! You build the monuments for the prophets. But it was your ancestors who murdered them. (48) So you are witnesses and approve of what your ancestors did. They murdered the prophets for whom you build monuments. (49) That's why the Wisdom of God said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles. They will murder some of those prophets and apostles and persecute others.'

May the Lord add blessings, understanding, ant implemention to the reading of his word....

[PaleHorse]

Grapes can ferment on the vine; that is why when one was set apart for God's service by a Nazirite vow he was not allowed to eat grapes:

Num 6:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate [themselves] to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate [themselves] unto the LORD: Num 6:3 He shall separate [himself] from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. Num 6:4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.
While 'new wine' is found "in the cluster" the cluster is not guaranteed to have new wine in it.

In His service,
Mr. J
When grapes ferment on the vine you always get vinegar - not alcoholic wine. Also, the verse (Isa. 65:8) doesn't mention fermentation at all - as such we must understand that it is refering to the normal circumstance of such juice while "in the cluster".
Additionally, Num 6:2-3 isn't talking about what to drink and what not to drink in normal sitiuations - it specifically is refering to those who make a vow. It was an act of obediance that showed themselves worthy of the vow. The same is true for Sampson's hair - the hair didn't give him his incredible strength - God did. But the rule for Sampson to not cut his hair was to show God of his obediance - it had nothing to do with his hair.

[Vaudois]

Clearly the Numbers verses are dealing with ANYTHING that had to do with grapes, not merely the fermentation aspect.

So is a symbolic lesson that the Nazirite cannot eat anything of grape origin, or merely a law against one food?

What do grapes symbolize in God's Word?

[Seraph1m]

Yeah, that was um, interesting huh.

Do you have any other questions you would like to address?

New Testament vs. Old Testament.

Unsettled stomach vs Ulcerated stomach.

That's clear.

[awesumtenor]

When grapes ferment on the vine you always get vinegar - not alcoholic wine.

umm.. no...overripe fruit contains alcohol; in fact wines like beaujolais are produced utilizing the naturally occurring ethanol rather than forcing fermentation with yeast and carbon dioxide.

Also, the verse (Isa. 65:8) doesn't mention fermentation at all - as such we must understand that it is refering to the normal circumstance of such juice while "in the cluster".

Whether juice is found 'in the cluster' depends on when you get to that cluster.

Additionally, Num 6:2-3 isn't talking about what to drink and what not to drink in normal sitiuations - it specifically is refering to those who make a vow. It was an act of obediance that showed themselves worthy of the vow. The same is true for Sampson's hair - the hair didn't give him his incredible strength - God did. But the rule for Sampson to not cut his hair was to show God of his obediance - it had nothing to do with his hair.

It was an act of obedience... but it had nothing to do with 'worthiness'; there is nothing we can do that makes us worthy in God's eyes... and there never has been. While Samson's strength was not in his hair, if you keep reading in Numbers chapter 6, you will find that one marked the end of his period of being set apart for service by cutting his hair; that is why Samson lost his strength when his hair was cut; God's spirit departed from him when he was no longer set apart.

In His service,
Mr. J

[awesumtenor]

Clearly the Numbers verses are dealing with ANYTHING that had to do with grapes, not merely the fermentation aspect.

So is a symbolic lesson that the Nazirite cannot eat anything of grape origin, or merely a law against one food?

What do grapes symbolize in God's Word?

Umm... you've missed the point completely.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Vaudois]

Thank you for your opinion.
You missed my point. Oh well....

[tall73]

I am a pastor, and while I do not believe anyone should drink, as it is not necessary to life, and can be quite harmful, I would also say one has a hard time using the Bible to say that you cannot drink any alcohol. It is quite clear that drunkeness is forbidden though. And since some people might have tendencies to drunkeness, it seems we could avoid a lot of problems by calling for total abstinence.

With the popularity of bottled water and medicinal or even herbal remedies for the stomach, I don't really think that using it for healing or to avoid bad water is really necessary any more either. And it fascinates me that some who use the cultural argument on most everything else seem to justify drinking by the text about stomach ailments. (Speaking of some I have met in real life, I don't know on what basis anyone here drinks or does not).

[BondGirl]

Again...as for Pastors - I have yet to hear of a Pastor speaking against incest in the pulpit.

...and it is mentioned in the Bible to be wrong.....

Using the logic of Pastors advocating against alcohol is along the same veins as Pastors not speaking against sexual crimes in the pulpit.

Just because it is not mentioned does not make it right/not right.....