Left Behind Controversy

[LilyLamb]

mb.leftbehind.com/ubb/For...02322.html (http://mb.leftbehind.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/002322.html)

Mr. Jenkins states that Chang is a believer.

[LilyLamb]

Can I discuss this here without someone thinking I need to be calmed down or I'm being hostile??? :)

I have tried to think of all the possible scenarios of Chang having a mark and being a believer but I cannot reconcile it with scripture that says that those who have the mark will come under God's wrath - and the scriptures say that we are not appointed unto wrath.

Can anyone help me understand this???

[Reborn2000]

I agree with you, Lily, about the double mark. I have wondered about this myself, but am waiting until the next book to (hopefully) see how this story plays out. I think you had some valid questions and I guess Mr. Jenkins answered to the best of his ability without giving away the plot of the next book. :)

Kelly

[onesheep]

Yes, you may discuss it here.

Personally I do not believe scripture supports a believer receiving the mark. Didn't read the last book so I don't know if Chang actually did or not, or if that is left hanging.

God marks us as His, I don't see how we can then take the mark of the beast.

[carma]

Lily,

I know you mentioned something about him not being able to fake the mark of the believer, because he couldn't see it. IIRC, there WAS someone in one of the earlier books that did fake the mark of a believer.

Anyone remember that?

[Reborn2000]

Yeah, I do remember that. It was the kid at the airport wasn't it? With Ken?

Kelly

[carma]

Ya, that does sound familiar.

[LilyLamb]

I remember that too - but if you read the link, you will see that Jenkins says that Chang IS a believer. ;)

Mr. Jenkins says ...

Chang is a true believe and he does not worship the beast. Calm down and keep reading. We're not going to all of a sudden go apostate on you. :)

Trust me, you have heard only Chang's side of this story. Do you think if one of the characters discovers a true account of what happened that it will jibe with Chang thinks he remembers? Do you really think we who have been as careful with Scripture as we know how would suddenly veer off course in book 8 and imply something wholly unbiblical?

This plot twist was my idea and of course I checked it with the best living resource a writer could have. Dr. LaHaye liked it and combed the Scriptures to be sure nothing there precluded it. I warned him to be ready for the fire storm before the whole thing was played out.

That's where we stand now. Employing the best advice from Verbal Judo, I should have said, "Is there anything I can say (without giving the story away) that will get you to trust us until this is played out in book 9?"

So ... we shall see what happens - I don't know how he's gonna pull it off - but we shall see.

[carma]

Well if he is a believer and if they have him actually receiving the mark, I don't know how they are going to pull it off, unless there is something there in scripture that I am not aware of, which is a possibility. I've read all of scripture several times, but I don't have it all memorized.

Like I have said to a few people, I don't see anyone making anybody take the mark, it would be, "You must take this" and when they refuse for any reason, "You lose your head!"

No forcing, no begging (except by loved ones), simply you do it with no fuss or you die.

[LilyLamb]

One person brought up the possibility that Chang's mark isn't real - but Chang doesn't know that yet - they think that maybe someone like Hannah is there and that with him being the first recipient that it was easy to pull off a counterfeit mark.

Time will tell. :)

[q8888]

I think that because it was forced on him without him consenting, he was ableto have both marks.

[onesheep]

I think that because it was forced on him without him consenting, he was ableto have both marks. Except by reading Scripture you aren't going to find anything about that differentiates between being forced or not. If you take the mark, you take the mark; force isn't an issue.

And my pesonal belief is they cannot both exist on the same person. It is not "just a mark."

[LilyLamb]

Actually in Revelation 13:16 it says - "The second beast also forced all people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to have a mark on their right hand or on their forehead."

So then if ALL will be FORCED to take the mark then Chang's situation isn't exclusive or special or different or acceptable - ALL will be FORCED by the second beast to have the mark.

And according to the very next chapter the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever - no exceptions.

[onesheep]

Yep, ALL will be forced. All being those that are not saved.

Those that are saved cannot take it or they will not survive.

All those that do not take it will die. Those marked by God cannot take the mark of the beast, they will die.

Except the 144,000, they are protected. Kind of makes that ALL something different than when we think.

Kind of falls into the:

Scripture says ALL israel shall be saved.
Further, it says that 1/3 of Israel shall be redeemed.

That's a contradiction unless the two are different.
#1: 1/3 of all the people with the blood of Jacob.
#2: All Israel = 1/3.

Just learned that. :D

I'll be bowing out of this discussion, LL, but I hope you find the answers you're looking for.

[carma]

Also remember, the 144K will not be 'around', they will be in hiding, supernaturally hidden, where they won't be found.

[Solomon Spade]

Hypothetical question:

Suppose that a believer was found unconsious by some of the Beast's follwers. Seeing that he doesn't have a BMO, and not knowing that he is a believer, they decide to give him the Mark. What would happen the the Christian if someone tried to give him the Mark when he wasn't able to resist?

[LilyLamb]

To me this, and other hypothetical questions like it, says that God is outta control and unable to protect His children. I've heard this argument time and again but it doesn't add up when you look at the "character" of God. I believe He is our hiding place and we need not fear being gathered up into some kind of concentration camp and being injected with a mark while we are unconscious.

However, for the sake of argument - IF, and that's a mighty big IF this were to occur then I would have to believe that God sees the heart and will judge accordingly.

Alas - Chang was not unconscious though, so it's a moot point for his situation.

My DD's are 22 and 17 and there is no way on God's green earth they would allow someone to place a mark on them - they're not strong enough to "resist" but by golly they wouldn't hide behind a fear of "needles" and would let the folks know that they are believers and not about to pledge allegiance to the beast as their allegiance already belongs to the Lamb.

[LilyLamb]

The Left Behind author's thread is now at page three and "flaming" ;) Lots of interesting points have been made, but it looks like nothing will truly be resolved until the next book comes out ... I do like what Rayford4eva said on page three ;)

Just keeping this thread alive ;)

[ChosenbyHim]

Yep, this is what sell books!

Chosen

[Josephus]

I'm amazed that there is even an issue over this. I sincerely hope people haven't taken the Left Behind series to be totally theologically sound. After all, it's only a fiction based on as much biblical fact as possible, but it's still fiction, and prone to human error.

I do urge to take a step back and not consider the Left Behind series as 'canon' to the end times. To do so would make it very hard for one to change their mind if the scenario we read in the series is nothing at all what does happen when we actually go through it.

<><

[onesheep]

Josephus, that is the problem. No one here considers it "canon" and yet there are still a great many who do. While we know it is fiction, it is portrayed as a Christian book. But it does not line up with Scripture. That is a problem for those that consider those books to be relied upon when Scripture is not.

That is the issue.

[LilyLamb]

Josephus ... what onesheep said is true - too many at the LB site take this series too seriously and that is why I have aggressively ;) pursued this - if you read the LB thread on this topic and other topics like it {which is linked in the first post of this thread} you will see how some have taken this series to such extremes that they defend the authors over scripture, including the author himself {note how he keeps saying that he has not gone "apostate" on us yet}. He honestly believes his series to be scripturally accurate. That concerns me more than anything.

[AngelAmidala]

I admit that after reading the first few books, and going to the Left Behind message boards, I was beginning to take what was going on in the books VERY seriously. But then there was a point where I told myself to STOP and realize that Left Behind was a fictional series, and while there was Bible research done to write the books, it wasn't exactly every single thing that would happen. And I was able to enjoy The Mark more once I read it. :)

[Wearynot]

As long as the writers stick close to scripture, I'll continue to read the series. But once they veer too sharply from scripture, I'm putting the books down.

[Vessel of Mercy]

To Lilylamb,
I am so relieved to have found this forum and this thread. Please do not think you are alone with your concerns about the doctrines in the Left Behind series. The Lord has prompted my husband and I to read, discuss, pray, and then write doctrinal commentaries-mostly about salvation- on all of the books. I don't know about Chang yet because I'm still reading the first book. I have plenty to write about with the first book, and now that I've seen this thread I'm so glad that others are not throwing away their Bibles because of this popular series.

May I please share something very important here about Tim LaHaye's Prophecy Study Bible: King James and also some things I observed at the official Left Behind website?

I'm pasting a letter God gave me to send to a few people he laid on my heart to do so.

This letter was a followup to an earlier letter where I wrote the Tim LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible: King James has a hexagram on the front cover.

Dear Concerned Christian:

I've received some mail about my statements concerning the marking on
the Tim LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible: King James. Some have thought that
I am in error and that the marking is not a hexagram, but merely the
Star of David.

The ENCIRCLED or RINGED hexagram is the magical symbol, and the hexagram
standing alone is the "Star of David" not a symbol used for magic. The
one on the Tim LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible: King James has a ring around
it, even though the Star of David does not. The Jewish people-NOT the
Kabbalistic Jews who are occultists-would certainly not appreciate the
Star of David symbol they use to be encircled and thus PERVERTED.

I did a little searching on the net and I'd like to leave some links for
those interested in looking at the Star of David and then looking at the
ringed "Star of David" which is a hexagram and used for magical
purposes.

First, I should define "magical purposes." Actually the spelling
occultists use is magickal which differentiates magic done by demonic
power from magic meaning mere sleight-of-hand. But I will just use the
plain "magic" spelling. Magic is the movement of natural energies to
create needed change. These "natural energies" are none other than
demon spirits and the occultist needs symbols to get them to perform the
supernatural change in this physical world.

One of the earliest Jewish symbol is the menorah. You can see that here:
www.us-israel.org/jsource...norah.html (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/menorah.html)

Then, later on, this symbol was adopted:
www.us-israel.org/jsource.../star.html (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/star.html)
This is the "Star of David" and I don't have a problem with it.

Now let's look at something VERY interesting. If you go here
www.menorah.org/starofdavid.html (http://www.menorah.org/starofdavid.html) you will see at the top of the
page the PERVERSION of the "Star of David" into a hexagram because it is
ENCIRCLED. Interestingly at the bottom of the page it has no circle and
is merely the "Star of David." The article on this page is interesting
in that it discusses the hexagram and its magical uses: "Rather, all
evidence suggests that the early use of the hexagram was limited to
"practical Kabbalah," that is, Jewish magic, probably dating back to the
6th century C.E."

The encircling of the hexagram is what gives it its magical (demonic)
use; it does not have this magical use without the circle. Why? Because
the CIRCLE or RING around the hexagram turns it into a "demon trap"
which the demons (once they are called) remain within to do their
assignment in the life of the one posessing the object with the hex on
it.

David Bay, of CuttingEdge minisries, wrote of the hexagram's use:
"Notice the Hexagram on which Satan's altar is resting. Since this
hexagram is surrounded by a circle, it becomes a Demon Trap, which we
now know is THE most powerful tool possible to conjure up a demon so
that he can be forced to do that which the Witch wants him to do." This
was taken from his article entitled: "I, WITCH" NEW WORLD ORDER
ORGANIZATION" at: www.cuttingedge.org/news/...iwitch.htm (http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1221biwitch.htm)

Satan's altar does not need to be resting on top of a hexagram in order
for it to be used as a "demon trap." These hexagram symbols have been
used for centuries to put curses on many objects and people.

It is definite there is not one, but five "demon traps" on the Tim
LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible, and one of the "demon traps" is on a title
page of sorts where there is a "Presented To" section with a line for
the person to write their name or the name of the person they are giving
the bible to. When the person's name is written here, this activates an
additonal curse.

I have not yet shared this, but I think the Lord would have me to
mention this now:

There are some disturbing facts about the "Left Behind" website that I
visited recently. The book, Desecration is due to be released, yes
PLANNED to be released on Oct. 30, 2001. This information can be found
at: www.leftbehind.com/faqs_gen.html (http://www.leftbehind.com/faqs_gen.html)

Here's what they wrote about it: "Q: When is the next book in the Series
coming out? A: Desecration, the 9th book in the Series, will be in
stores on October 30, 2001."

The 9TH BOOK! Released on Oct. 30th so it will be selling on the 31ST!
We all know about Halloween and how it is the highest Satanic "holy day"
of the year, but what is the significance of the number 9?

Texe Marrs wrote concerning this: "Satanists take delight in the number
nine for a couple of reasons. First, Satanists enjoy reversing,
mirroring and inverting symbols, letters and numbers. When you turn the
number "9" upside down you get "6" which makes up the number of the
Beast (666) as revealed in Revelation 13:18 in the Bible. Second,
Satanists take perverse pleasure in commemorating the death of Christ
and the death of Christ is associated with the number nine. Mark 15:
34-37 reveals that Christ spoke his last words on the Cross of
Calvary at the ninth hour and "gave up the ghost and died)." See the
article, "Occult Numerology" at: logosresourcepages.org/nine.html (http://logosresourcepages.org/nine.html)


And all this written on a BLACK page with ORANGE letters! This is the
appearance of evil and biblically must be abstained from: " Abstain from
all appearance of evil."-1 Thess. 5:22

It's very disturbing to me that this person promoting the
pre-tribulation rapture so strongly has satanic markings on his
end-fiction series, Left Behind (Did you know he raptured the Pope and
Mother Theresa?) and on his Prophecy Study Bible.

Harry R. Miller wrote: "When a wolf puts on sheep's clothing and appears
before God's saints as one of them, it is then time for those who are
faithful to IDENTIFY THE WOLF. Those who know the wolf and keep silent
are as guilty as the enemy himself; they become partakers of his
sins by hiding the identity of the imposter."

This quote has helped me to keep in perspective WHY I am writing these
letters. The Lord wants to protect his people and help them prepare for
his true coming...as a bride ready for Him, without
spot or wrinkle.

I trust the Lord will help you to look into this and to see what He is
showing you regarding this.

Sincerely,

Gary and Lisa


Lilylamb, if you or anyone reading this thread would like to read my comments on the doctrinal content of the Left Behind series, please bookmark my discussion website and I'll be announcing when the articles are done.

members2.boardhost.com/TrueGospel/ (http://members2.boardhost.com/TrueGospel/)

Sincerely,

Lisa-a vessel of mercy

[Wearynot]

Lisa, I'd be interested in knowing where you got that "I Witch" web page. I mean other than the solitary link you provided. Who authored that page?

[postrib]

Hi.

Are you implying that LaHaye is a secret Satanist? If so, that's a pretty strong accusation, especially considering that the covers and title pages and graphic doodles of many major books aren't designed by the authors but by special graphic designers hired by the publishers. The authors and publishers, and even the graphic designers themselves, may not have been aware of the possible implications of the graphics, which you are right to point out.

Similarly, though I believe Satan will use the entire pre-trib doctrinal base of the Left Behind series against Christians in the tribulation, this doesn't mean that the authors or pre-tribbers must be Satanists themselves.

Knowing the rapture's true timing is important because if some Christians believe with all their heart that Jesus has promised them a pre-trib rapture, couldn't "many be offended" (Matthew 24:9-12, compare Matthew 13:20-21) when it doesn't happen?

"The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith" (1 Timothy 4:1), and this departure from the faith (the falling away or apostasy) will happen before Jesus comes to rapture us (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).

I believe Jesus told us everything beforehand for a good reason, so that we would not be deceived and would not lose faith (Mark 13:23, Hosea 4:6). I believe the pre-trib doctrine is setting the church up for great disappointment and confusion and the falling away from the faith (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-12, 2 Thessalonians 2:3).

We all must begin to face and get free of any fear of the tribulation and death (Revelation 2:10, 21:7-8; 1 Peter 4:12-13, Hebrews 2:15, Luke 12:4, Philippians 1:21-23).

I personally believe that pre-trib prophets are giving the people what they want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3-4), instead of what they need to hear (Mark 13:23), and that false prophets that teach God's people false hopes will be held accountable, as in the days of old (Jeremiah 14:13-15, Ezekiel 13:2-16).

Satan could use the failure of the pre-trib rapture to happen as a great weapon against Christians who believe Jesus had promised them a pre-trib rapture.

He could say something like: "Jesus promised you that he would whisk you away before the tribulation started, but did he keep his word? No. Just like he kicked poor Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden to keep them from eating the tree of life and living forever (read it for yourself in Genesis 3:22-23), so even now he doesn't want the best for you; he just wants you and your poor baby to starve to death and suffer for his amusement! You don't believe me? Read it for yourself in Job 9:22-23 and Proverbs 1:26. But look here, I'm not laughing at you, I'm offering you and your baby food to eat, because I love you. All you need to do is take this little mark on your hand and worship me and my man here for a little bit and we'll take perfect care of you; and once we're all united we'll storm heaven together and I'll let you eat of the tree of life and live forever and do as you please."

No doubt some Christians could fall for this line, for haven't many already fallen for what I believe is a false gospel which says Jesus saved us from the tribulation?

May the Lord bless you.

www.geocities.com/postrib/ (http://www.geocities.com/postrib/)

[carma]

Postrib,

He could say something like: "Jesus promised you that he would whisk you away before the tribulation started, but did he keep his word? No. Just like he kicked poor Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden to keep them from eating the tree of life and living forever (read it for yourself in Genesis 3:22-23), so even now he doesn't want the best for you; he just wants you and your poor baby to starve to death and suffer for his amusement! You don't believe me? Read it for yourself in Job 9:22-23 and Proverbs 1:26. But look here, I'm not laughing at you, I'm offering you and your baby food to eat, because I love you. All you need to do is take this little mark on your hand and worship me and my man here for a little bit and we'll take perfect care of you; and once we're all united we'll storm heaven together and I'll let you eat of the tree of life and live forever and do as you please."

Would you say that someone that believes this has their faith in Jesus Christ?

[Vessel of Mercy]

The article is from David Bay's CuttingEdge website: www.cuttingedge.org

Lisa

[Vessel of Mercy]

Hello Posttrib,
Do you know its because of your discussion board links that I've been posting a bit lately at Rapture Ready and now here? I think your articles have good insight, and I totally agree that many will be offended in Christ if things don't go the way the teachers say they will go.

The Lord has commanded Gary and I to get out the information he's led us to discover concering the markings on LaHaye's work. We will continue to do so, and not just LaHaye, but anyone in Christendom (that God leads us to) who is marking or teaching what is contrary to the true doctrines of the Holy Bible. God is brooding over his people with a holy jealousy, and there are some with hearts bowed towards him who are willing to heed the warnings he is giving them so they will not fall into Satan's carefully planned snares for the church.

A Christian has every right to say "NO" to the publisher's decisions towards marking their work in a Satanic fashion. If they don't get published, so be it. That's the pilgrim way.

Accusations are not necessary; observations are. The doctrinal content of the books is potentially destructive towards the believer, and it needs to be exposed.

Since when does God overtake a believer's will? Satan does everything in his power (by using curses, spells, etc.) to hold a person's will in bondage, but this is NOT God's way!

I happen to have the book, The Mark at home, and just thumbed through it because of this thread and the concern it has stirred. There is a discussion forum post in the book that teaches the reader that a believer will be UNABLE, yes, not have posession of his will, to take the mark of the beast. Here's the quote: from page 339 of the book, The Mark. (captials are mine)

I have good news for you that I have already admitted is difficult to understand, even for me, who has been called to shepherd you and exposit the Word of God for you. The Bible tells us that once one is either sealed by God as a believer or accepts the mark of loyalty to Antichrist, this is a once-and-for-all choice. In other words, if you have decided for Christ and the seal of God is evident on your forehead, you CANNOT change your mind!

That tells me that somehow, when we face the ultimate test, God miraculously overcomes our evil, selfish flesh and gives us the grace and courage to make the right decision in spite of ourselves. My interpretation of this is that we will be UNABLE to deny Jesus, UNABLE to even choose the mark that would temporarily save our lives.-end quote

This is completely against everything in the word of God concerning a believer and their capacity to make decisions in their walk with God. This also gives believers a false hope that God will all-of-a-sudden violate their will and make it impossible for them to deny Christ with this mark. That is NOT how the Most High God of the Bible deals with his saints, but can you guess which god deals with his followers by supernaturally manipulating their will?

I know every book must be purchased now and poured over for doctrinal content. I am so glad that others have been concerned as well and are working to expose the dangerous teachings.

Sincerely,

Lisa-a vessel of mercy

[carma]

Ok, a couple of questions for you Lisa.

Do you know its because of your discussion board links that I've been posting a bit lately at Rapture Ready and now here? I think your articles have good insight, and I totally agree that many will be offended in Christ if things don't go the way the teachers say they will go.

And now I ask you also, would you say that person has their faith 100% in Jesus Christ?

I have good news for you that I have already admitted is difficult to understand, even for me, who has been called to shepherd you and exposit the Word of God for you.

Who have you been called to do this for?

[carma]

:::carma looks in the mirror:::

Nope, I'm not invisible!!!

Either or both of you two gonna answer my questions?

[Vessel of Mercy]

Carma,
I can anwer your first question to me, but not the second, because it is based upon the second quote of which I did not make.

"And now I ask you also, would you say that person has their faith 100% in Jesus Christ?"

My answer: they would have their faith 100% in what they are TAUGHT are the promises of the Lord Jesus Christ, and as such their faith could be devastated at the thought that Christ's promises weren't true. Christ's promises ARE 100% true, every one of them. The promises that are not true are the promises false teachers are SAYING the Lord Jesus Christ has promised.

I'm curious if you are defending fictionalizing Bible doctrine...not merely fictionalizing an end-time scenario but fictionalizing Bible doctrine, ESPECIALLY as it pertains to salvation and the promises of God?

Sincerely,

Lisa-a vessel of mercy

[carma]

My answer: they would have their faith 100% in what they are TAUGHT are the promises of the Lord Jesus Christ, and as such their faith could be devastated at the thought that Christ's promises weren't true. Christ's promises ARE 100% true, every one of them. The promises that are not true are the promises false teachers are SAYING the Lord Jesus Christ has promised.

Then someone that has faith in what they are taught, does not have their faith in Jesus Christ.

I don't see that someone that has faith in teaching and not Christ is saved in the first place.

Who made that 2nd comment?

I'm curious if you are defending fictionalizing Bible doctrine...not merely fictionalizing an end-time scenario but fictionalizing Bible doctrine, ESPECIALLY as it pertains to salvation and the promises of God?

I'm not defending fictional anything. I am speaking against the fictional statements such as "if the pre-trib rapture does not happen, pre-tribber will do all kinds of damnable things".

That is simply not true. If a person has their faith in Jesus Christ, they belong to Him and scripture tells us that we are His sheep and we will NOT listen to the voice of the stranger, because we know His voice.

[LilyLamb]

Lisa - you had my full attention up until your comment ...

(Did you know he raptured the Pope and Mother Theresa?)

I have major issues with the LB series ... namely the idea that someone who has heard and rejected the gospel message can have a second chance after the rapture ... I do not feel this is biblical. And ... the issue of whether or not a true believer can have the mark of the beast and still be saved. The major argument for Chang is that he was "forced" to receive the mark against his will but since the scriptures state that all will be "forced" that is a moot point.

However, I also have MAJOR issues with anyone who makes off-hand remarks about a CHRISTIAN religion like the Catholics.

So ... we agree that there are some concerns regarding the LB series ... but I know nothing about the prophecy Bible which you mentioned so I can't comment on that.

However I do thank you for sharing your insights - you have made me aware of some things that I want to look into further.

[carma]

LilyLamb,

I knew that you or onesheep were gonna catch that.

:)

[onesheep]

:) LilyLamb is quicker than I am. ;)

[Vessel of Mercy]

Hello Lilylamb and others,

To those who disagree with my statment, "Did you know he raptured the Pope and Mother Theresa?" I wanted to provide an explanation for my statement. Ironically, the original letter (this one was added to as I learned more) about my discovery of the hexagram on the Tim LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible was sent to a pro-Catholic discussion board moderated by two Catholics.

The original letter was entitled, "Satanic Markings on Protestantism" because I had written earlier about the inverted cross on the Pope's chair -when he was in Israel- and the twisted cross he carries in his hand, (both of these are occultic symbols and this is documentable, which they asked me to do and I complied.) and I had said I would get back with some satanic markings on Protestantism-of which there are indeed many. My point, of which I believe they respected, was to expose the ways Satan has infiltrated every denomination and how we must trust the clear teachings of the Holy Bible ONLY.

Not to go way off-topic, I just wanted to let you know there is good reason for my remarks of disbelief concerning the pope and Mother Theresa being raptured.

The pope has ALREADY taken a mark that is most definitely not of the God of the Holy Bible. You can learn of this by reading these three articles from David Bay's website: www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1161.cfm (http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1161.cfm)
www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1163.cfm (http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1163.cfm)
www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1163b.cfm (http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1163b.cfm)

David Bay's contention that the Pope is the False Prophet is not the point of posting these links, and I don't have an opinion on who the false prophet is at this point. I just wanted to let you know he "received a pagan Shiva mark on his forehead by a Shiva
priestess when he was on a trip to India."

It's interesting that Mother Theresa's quote (from Time magazine I believe) which I still need to locate, had to do with the Hindu faith and it corresponding somehow to the Christian faith. I will get that quote and get back to this board with it.

Sincerely,

Lisa-a vessel of mercy

[onesheep]

Vessel of Mercy, the site in your links is an anti-Catholic site so their credibility on the Catholic issue is entirely suspect. The fact that the gentlemen refers to Catholicism as a cult shows that he does not have an understanding of Catholicism.

The upside down cross is the Cross of Peter. Peter was crucified on a cross upside down and Catholics consider the Pope to be a direct line to Peter. The fact that someone took it and made it something else does not change what it stands for, the crucifixion of Peter.

[carma]

I wasn't aware that the mark of the beast is out for grabs yet.

I'm surprised that David Bay thinks so, since the mark is not brought about until the mid point of the trib and David Bay is a pre-trib believer.

[LilyLamb]

Lisa, I have heard comments before by those who are anti-catholic about the inverted cross, the "twisted cross" and the Pope receiving a dot from a Hindu. To make these into objects that are antichrist is in MHO ludicrous.

I recently checked out a new book from the library on the Vatican city and found out a lot of amazing, wonderful details about the art work that is displayed there and the history behind the city - very fascinating - you should check it out.

This is moving away from the topic at hand which is okay, but we can discuss this further if you like, and anything else regarding the teachings of the catholic church or why the Pope uses a "twisted cross" if you would like to join in on the discussions in the King's Tavern Catholic forum threads.

[Eric Halleck]

Interesting reading. This thread shows the condition of the church, and its many members, quite graphicly. Starts off with the premise that the Left Behind series is truth not understood. Some have dared question the reasoning of some that hold these as the latest books of the Bible. Some have admitted continuing to read and glean from its pages something that will inspire them, as long they hold close to the truth.

The truth? It is fiction. The truth? This is nothing more than a group of people way to make a heavy profit. The truth? As long as you all want to buy there books and debate fiction, those who profit from it love it.

It does not amaze me in the least that some would squabble over the "truth" contained in the pages of this fictional tale. Most who are squabbling over this would do the same over passages of scripture, and never come to agreement. So, nothing new under the sun, just a different group of people aiming to profit from our inability to discern.

Think about just who's pocket your next $20.00 bill will go the next book you buy in thgis series. Just where does that money go? I've asked forthrightly on several occasions, but I am still awaiting an answer. I think that is one piece of knowledge they don't want us to know about. Does it go to the Vatican? UPC headquarters? Their own individual checking accounts? Where? Do we not as members of the body of Christ have an obligation to ask these questions and be given the answer if this book series is being touted as a tool for the church?

Maybe we have just reached a point where deception, and nuggets of truth, must be packaged in frilly boxes with bows in order for us to give it credence. I think I'll go buy me a WWJD T-shirt to feel good about myself reaching out to the world.

Eric

[onesheep]

Eric, I have heard that Tim LaHaye has donated his profits to legitimate charities. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. As to giving it to the Vatican, I have to laugh at that. Tim LaHaye is vehemently anti-Catholic.

There are several issues involved here. For some people, this series is there first meeting with God and Christ. While the series is fiction the authors do state that it is in line with Scripture. I don't find that to be totally true. While it is a small door opener, it is the Holy Spirit, through Scripture, that will teach us who God is, what He wants for us, what He has in store for us.

But instead of going to Scripture some people go to fiction books. The authors know this and I believe they need to be much more vocal to readers that it is strictly fiction. How hard would it be for them to put something in the front of the book to grab people's attention and say, it's fiction, get yourself a Bible, pray to God for understanding and showing you what He wants you to know and read it everyday?

If you're going to write about Scripture, you become a teacher. And teachers have a BIG obligation in the eyes of God. They will be judged more harshly because of their positions. I don't think these 2 writers are living up to their obligations with this series.

Just my personal opinion, though.

[Eric Halleck]

If you're going to write about Scripture, you become a teacher. And teachers have a BIG obligation in the eyes of God. They will be judged more harshly because of their positions. I don't think these 2 writers are living up to their obligations with this series.

At first when I read this, I differentiated between the fictional book series, and those that teach scriptural truths. Then I re-read it, and I see that you believe the authors are in essence acting as teachers, even through the means of fictional writing.

Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that these folks have every right to profit as they are. Why not, it is the going trend. And if it is great entertainment, then who is to fault that either? Never read a book yet. Just watched the movie and have researched this whole movement out. My research kinda ended when I could not get a response to where my money would go if I bought a book. (Yeah, the Vatican thing was kinda a dig, but hey, we're dealing with fantasy, so anything goes, right?)

We aren't called sheep without a reason. Sometimes a voice calls out to us and asks us to follow him a while. Why the herd follows after is a mystery, but some of the flock hold their ground waiting to hear the true shepards voice. This fictional fad reminds me of the same spirit of the role playing game Dungeons and Dragons. People become so consumed in the fantasy, it becomes their reality. They have to play it out to its final conclusion. That of course is a matter of degrees the delusion carries out, depending on the person. Wanna believe the truth, or a fictional tale? Has always been the offer on the table to the children of God.

Here is my real view of the entire series: why bother getting wrapped up in end times calamities via fiction? Why become engulfed in the lives of imaginary people living out the last days? If we'd open our eyes, we'd see a world full of real people getting ready to experience the real thing. There is no escaping it, the Word of God is not idle. If Yahweh said it, we'd better believe it will be fulfilled to perfection.

Wrong time to be focused on a fantasy, when we have reality staring us right in the face. In my opinion....

Eric

[onesheep]

Eric, Jerry Jenkins is a frequent speaker on Christian Marriages as well as writer of nonfiction. Tim LaHaye is a noted author, minister, counselor, television commentator and nationally recognized speaker on family life and Bible prophecy. He is the founder and president of Tim LaHaye Ministries and the founder of the PreTrib Research Center. He is a minister.

So yes, I consider them to be teachers. I also consider many posters on message boards to be teachers, and not always of God.

The point is that I know these books are fiction; many coming to Christ do not and will hold these books above Scripture. That is the problem. I'm not interested in living in a fantasy world but I also want people to come to know God. You aren't going to find Him in a set of fiction books, though many are trying.

If you are concerned about where your money is going, then you are doing right by not buying the books.

[Vessel of Mercy]

Dear friends,

I'm pasting a quote by Mr. Jenkins Lily Lamb put on one of her posts:Quote:

"Trust me, you have heard only Chang's side of this story. Do you think if one of the characters discovers a true account of what happened that it will jibe with Chang thinks he remembers? Do you really think we who have been as careful with Scripture as we know how would suddenly veer off course in book 8 and imply something wholly unbiblical?

This plot twist was my idea and of course I checked it with the best living resource a writer could have. Dr. LaHaye liked it and combed the Scriptures to be sure nothing there precluded it. I warned him to be ready for the fire storm before the whole thing was played out.

That's where we stand now. Employing the best advice from Verbal Judo, I should have said, "Is there anything I can say (without giving the story away) that will get you to trust us until this is played out in book 9?"

AS CAREFUL WITH SCRIPTURE AS WE KNOW HOW?!

I don't think so, and that is why the Lord had me start God's Word on Left Behind at: www.libertytothecaptives.org/discus (http://www.libertytothecaptives.org/discus)

Is being defiant when one is presented with taking the mark of the beast "a mark in itself" (presumably a mark of belonging to God)? See LB pg. 421. (The pastor, Bruce Barnes made this statement, lending much more authority to it.) Hmmm, it seems this plot turn in The Mark was already prepared for in the very first book in the series.

Chang was quite defiant, wouldn't you say, when he was given the mark? He certainly didn't agree to it, and indeed fought to get away. But was his DEFIANCE enough to render the mark of the beast null and void? Is DEFIANCE of the mark of the beast a "mark in itself" (of God)? No, but the book is teaching its readers this unbiblical reasoning.

Chang did not admit to being a Christian, or refuse the mark on that basis and accept martydom. Instead, he loved his own life, he denied Christ in action by not denouncing the Antichrist and confessing Christ before men. But he was indeed DEFIANT, and that supposedly is "a mark in itself."

I'm writing about this subject here for the very first time because I know Lily Lamb was concerned (and rightfully so!) about this and its implications. Finding out that the reader was primed for this teaching back in the first book gives me cause for grave concern. It is sin to plant these thoughts in the minds of believers and unsaved alike so that at a time of crisis these implanted subliminals (that's what they are!) will be retrived by the mind involuntarily and the person won't really know why they think this way.

The books also teach (by the example of the Christian characters) that it is acceptable to outwardly give the honor to Antichrist that only the Lord Jesus Christ is worhty of to "get along" when Antichrist rules the world. Where does it say this? I'm going to write about this soon.

Bring your Bible and visit: God's Word On Left Behind at: www.libertytothecaptives.org/discus (http://www.libertytothecaptives.org/discus)

Sincerely,

Lisa

[carma]

This statement simply is not true:

The books also teach (by the example of the Christian characters) that it is acceptable to outwardly give the honor to Antichrist that only the Lord Jesus Christ is worhty of to "get along" when Antichrist rules the world. Where does it say this? I'm going to write about this soon.

[savinggrc]

I know that this is overlooked very easily, but in the pretrib scenario, the only folks left when all the stuff happens in the books are unsaved, correct? They then got saved, correct? What about Jesus' admonition in Matthew 24 to flee? Had those folks fled when they realized they were dealing with the Antichrist in Nicolae, then the mark couldn't have been forced on them and there wouldn't be an issue. They didn't flee.

The Bible doesn't say a word about believers not being able to get the mark forced onto them nor does it mention "accepting the mark." As long as you use terminology that makes you believe that there is a choice, then you will miss it, imo. :) It says he will force them to take the mark. Jesus said when you see him, flee. If they fled and are in hiding, then he can't force them.

Just my 2 cents.

[carma]

Since the command to flee is to Israel, that would have nothing to do with this issue.

The guys was Asian, IIRC, not Israelite.

[savinggrc]

Carma,

It is not to Israel. It is to everyone "left behind" after the rapture - according to the pretrib scenario since the claim is that Matthew 24 is for those who are left behind for the tribulation. Is it not? It does not say Israel, flee. It says when you see this guy set himself up as God, then flee. It doesn't say, Hey Israel when you see this...flee....

And it still never says that a believer cannot have the mark forced on them. That is naught but opinion. :)

[carma]

Nope, the command is to Israel.

Remember, the warning about the sabbath and the winter...that is strictly to Israel.

[Vessel of Mercy]

I think Svg Grace made a good point about the Bible saying to flee. Most definitely this is must be done, and all believers would have to flee to avoid being faced with taking the mark or being executed.

But for those who are faced with it, the authors are teaching IN REAL LIFE, some unscriptural things:

There is The Mark Live Global Chat - Transcript
from November 15, 2000, 8:00 - 9:00 EST P.M. on the official LEFT BEHIND website, at: C:^#92;web page info^#92;The Mark Live Global Chat - Transcript.htm

Someone asked about Chang and the result of his taking the mark of the beast:

05:30:33 PM> MODMSG ru4ou2:in the case of young chang will he be held accountable or is he doomed for a life in hell

05:30:56 PM> The_Authors:God looks on the heart. He was a believer first, and thus, always.

The authors are saying essentially that even though Chang was marked with the mark of the beast, because he was a believer when thus marked, he would remain a believer and remain sealed unto the day of redemption. The authors DENIED the inerrant word of God.

This is REAL LIFE teaching, not a teaching encased in fiction. Dr. LaHaye is teaching believers that as long as a Christian is genuine in his faith, his taking the mark will not result in the fate scripture describes for ALL who take the mark of the beast!

Yes, overcoming is one who "believeth that Jesus is the Son of God" -1 Jn. 5:5, but an overcomer also keeps Jesus' works unto the end: "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:"-Rev. 2:26

Lest anyone misunderstand the consequences of taking the mark of the beast, God's word is explicit in its warning to ANYONE who takes this mark: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormentd with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worhsip the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."-Reve. 14:9-11

Perhaps the authors might say in their next book Desecration (released on October 30, 2001 the eve of the most powerfully evil "Satanic high day" of the year) Chang did not worship the beast; in fact he confesed Christ later on after he was marked when he said, "Christ is risen indeed" when everyone else was saying "He is risen indeed" in reference to Antichrist. (See The Mark, page 146) The authors depicted Chang declaring his loyalty to the TRUE Christ AFTER receiving the mark of the beast. This is like teaching people they can still turn their lives over to the Lord Jesus Christ after they are physically dead! Taking the mark of the beast is a "no-turning-back" situation, and there will be no turning back, and no remorse and desire to serve the true, living, Lord Jesus Christ, who is God!

Chang did NOT declare his loyalty and allegiance to the Lord Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords when it was time to take the mark of allegiance to Antichrist. In real life,it would be for this reason, and none other, that he was marked. He would have received the mark IN REAL LIFE, because he was not willing to lose his life on this earth in order to save it, as Christ taught all his disciples. In the book, Chang did not scream out that he was a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ (the book, The Mark, depicted a believer commending him for NOT doing this! see The Mark page 353)and thus was not putting Christ first, above his own life. He did NOT have the "victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name,"! (See Rev. 15:2)

The scenario of being forced to take the mark of the beast WILL NEVER HAPPEN if the believer does what God's Word commands every true Christian to do and that is to confess Christ before men and accept the consequences. Satan will not force his mark upon any believer who declares their allegiance to the Lord Jesus Christ! No true Christian will be held down and forcibly marked! Why? Because taking the mark is an act of worship in itself, and worship can only come from the will and the heart.

Satan demands worship and a believer resolutely standing firm in his love for and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as the one true God and only savior of mankind, is worship to Christ and NOT to Satan!

This "believer first, and thus always" mentality (highly popular teaching but in direct contradition to scripture) is also behind the "two books of life" and false definition of overcomer taught in Dr. LaHaye's non-fiction works such as: Are We Living in the End Times?, The Time LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible: King James, and Revelation Unveiled.

Sincerely,

Lisa -God's Word On LEFT BEHIND: www.libertytothecaptives.org/discus (http://www.libertytothecaptives.org/discus)

[carma]

Perhaps the authors might say in their next book Desecration (released on October 30, 2001 the eve of the most powerfully evil "Satanic high day" of the year)

And the problem with the book being released on October 30th?

[Vessel of Mercy]

The book, The Mark, was done in April and has been sent to Tyndale House Publishers. It is unnecessary to plan the release of the book on the pre-Halloween date.

Occultists use high days in order to get power from Satan so they may accomplish certain goals. Why would a Christian even want to release their book on such an evil day? (The entire last week of October is the time occultists revel in added power from Satan: The 31st is merely the climax with horrendous human sacrifice.)

What the authors are saying about Chang taking the mark is more important than the observation about the book's release date.

I have information about other release dates that just happen to be occultic high days as well. I don't feel led to go into it now; I'm just grieved and burdened by this. The world is watching and Christians are to be separate...set apart from the world and Satan in their ways, and yes, in their book writing and release dates too.

Sincerely,

Lisa

[carma]

The book, The Mark, was done in April and has been sent to Tyndale House Publishers. It is unnecessary to plan the release of the book on the pre-Halloween date.

The Mark has already been released.

Occultists use high days in order to get power from Satan so they may accomplish certain goals. Why would a Christian even want to release their book on such an evil day? (The entire last week of October is the time occultists revel in added power from Satan: The 31st is merely the climax with horrendous human sacrifice.)

So anything that is done on Oct 30th is evil? You aren't even talking about Oct 31st, which wouldn't matter anyway, you are talking about the day before, why not push it to the week before or the entire month?

What the authors are saying about Chang taking the mark is more important than the observation about the book's release date.

You are the one that made the point about the release date, you were very clear in what you meant about it.

I have information about other release dates that just happen to be occultic high days as well. I don't feel led to go into it now; I'm just grieved and burdened by this. The world is watching and Christians are to be separate...set apart from the world and Satan in their ways, and yes, in their book writing and release dates too.

You better be careful there....you are treading on dangerous ground, IMO. Attributing evil to children of God, not a good thing.

[Wearynot]

This is REAL LIFE teaching, not a teaching encased in fiction. Dr. LaHaye is teaching believers that as long as a Christian is genuine in his faith, his taking the mark will not result in the fate scripture describes for ALL who take the mark of the beast!

Fercryinoutloud, this is FICTION. Are you telling me that you are judging Tim LaHaye based on a fictional account of the Rapture, which, by the way, is not the ONLY end-times doctrine ascribed to.

Am I understanding you to say that folks must write Mr. LaHaye off completely because of his fictional series?

If so, then it stands to reason that many writers of Christian fiction must be condemned by virtue of their writing about something they have not experienced. Like Frank Peritti?

It is up to individuals to be well-versed and immersed in Scripture so as to be able to judge fiction when they read it, and not to lean on their own, or Tim LaHaye's understanding.

[savinggrc]

What if, Weary, his non-fiction books line up with this? Are We Living In The End-Times? and Revelation Unveiled.

And don't you think, that as a teacher and at least a former pastor, that, at the very least, he's is being very irresponsible if he writes a fictional book that doesn't have good doctrine?

According to what Jerry Jenkins said on the message board, though, LaHaye considers everything he has written thus far to be completely okay doctrinally. So, yeah, we're judging him based on what he wrote in a "Christian" fiction book series.

[Wearynot]

What if, Weary, his non-fiction books line up with this? Are We Living In The End-Times? and Revelation Unveiled.

Line up with what? My comments were directed toward VoM's seeming correlation of the release dates lining up with Satanic or occultic high days. I think that's pretty "Oliver Stoneish." Seems to be a stretch trying to parallel the Occult and release dates, which, btw, rarely are on schedule.

As for the Chang comments....I don't recall ever reading anything about being able to take both marks in either Are We Living in the End Times or Revelation Unveiled, both of which I have read.

According to what Jerry Jenkins said on the message board, though, LaHaye considers everything he has written thus far to be completely okay doctrinally. So, yeah, we're judging him based on what he wrote in a "Christian" fiction book series.

So you are judging him on what another individual has said? That wouldn't wash in a court of law, it is called hearsay, so that pretty much means nothing to me.

As for the fictional series, they are just that, a fictional series. I have read many, many fictional Christian accounts of a myriad of biblical events. The first one I read was in 1972 or 3, called Two From Galilee. I was like, eleven years old. The book was about Mary and Joseph, and kind of chronicled the birth of Jesus.

I remember I had a neighbor who was a fundementalist, Bob Jones, if that means anything to you. She railed against that book, saying that it wasn't a Scriptural play-by-play and thus demonic. What a silly girl she was, for that book began my love affair with Christianity.

I know that you have read of the many, many people that this series has led to Christ. I will never berate something that is such a powerful witnessing tool.

I dunno, I just think there are more important issues to get all apoplectic about.

[onesheep]

I know that you have read of the many, many people that this series has led to Christ. And it has also led a number of people I know to a "Christ" not of the Bible and that concerns me greatly.

While this book is fiction, the authors have stated they have been careful to assure that this series follows Scripture. I believe that to be incorrect.

So yes, I am judging him on the fact that he says it lines up with Scripture when I do not believe it does. As a teacher, LaHaye has the responsibility of making sure he does not lead anyone astray in any way. Teachers are held to a higher standard. And I believe leading someone astray is something to get apoplectic about.

FYI, as far as I know Frank Peretti has not stated that his books are his interpretation of Scripture or in line with Scripture.

And someone needs to stick a fork in this, it is beyond done.

[Zafana]

the mark of the beast is the chi xi stigma, which is the CROSS and it means you agree to die to the BEAST in you so you can live to the son of God; the whole world is gathered to the WAR OF ARMAGEDDON and the antichrist fools the whole world; we are all bearing the mark of the beast and we must OVERCOME IT to get to Zion and the only way to overcome it is to be crucified with Christ.

the church has no clue about this stuff, because they didnt experience the RETURN of CHRIST and I have; you dont have to believe me but I tell you the truth.

[Wearynot]

Uhhh...okay.

[AngelAmidala]

You took the words right out of my mouth Weary...

[carma]

:rolleyes:

Not this again.....

[Zafana]

5516 chi xi stigma {khee xee stig'-ma}

the 22d, 14th and an obsolete letter (4742 as a cross) of the
Greek alphabet (intermediate between the 5th and 6th), used as
numbers;; number representation

AV - six hundred threescore and six 1; 1

1) six hundred and sixty six, the meaning of which is the basis
of much vain speculation

About Strongs Concordance for Strongs Number 5516 Go to Rev 13:18

There is one verse containing Strong's number 5516. Here it is:


Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six [5516].

Notice you need WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING which are both attributes of the upper worlds or the 3rd heaven, to count this number. Jewish gematria is all about counting the number of the alfabet as is shown in PSALM 119: where David or Ezra takes us through his JUDGMENT and the Hebrew alphabet to show us how not just every WORD but every single LETTER is important in computing the word of God; the whole truth constantly validates and witnesses to itself..

In ancient Judaism the last letter, the TAV was the MARK ON CAINS forhead and a cross; It is the mark of Gods judgment on the man of predition; it is the sin nature that will be destroyed with this cross, this DOOR to the upper worlds we will all be raptured to after our crucifixion; mine happened 9 years ago. You dont have to believe me but surely there is a Bible scholar among you who can disprove what Im saying.

[Habakkuk3]

The Mark on Cain's forehead was to be understood by anyone that saw him; it's purpose was "so all that saw him wouldn't kill him" --

it required no special symbolism or "reading between the lines" --

and if it was "a letter' of any language;

it was in the pre-Tower-of-Babel language that all shared until that event.

I am not doubting that you had an experience 9 years ago; but that doesn't mean "everybody else's interpretation is stupid"
or...

are you saying that

people are LESS OF A CHRISTIAN

if they have not had the particular EXPERIENCE that you had years ago?

[carma]

Well Habs, yer just nicer than me, cause I am saying she did NOT experience this:

the church has no clue about this stuff, because they didnt experience the RETURN of CHRIST and I have; you dont have to believe me but I tell you the truth.

Or this...

It is the mark of Gods judgment on the man of predition; it is the sin nature that will be destroyed with this cross, this DOOR to the upper worlds we will all be raptured to after our crucifixion; mine happened 9 years ago.

She might have had some type of "spiritual experience" but Christ has not returned yet and the rapture has not happened.

[savinggrc]

Amen and amen Carma...huh. Imagine that!!! We're talking about endtimes stuff and (sit down first!!) we agree!!! :eek: Shocking isn't it! :lol:

[carma]

:lol: savinggrc.

See what kinda stuff you end up believing when you just look at one thing...only the spiritual or only the physical.

You must have a balance.

[Habakkuk3]

(Hab has fainted.)

[Wearynot]

[been waitin' fer this a looong time]

::throwing ice cold water on Habs::

[Habakkuk3]

oh.

[savinggrc]

I sure wish I could have been the one to do that...*jealous* Throw icy water on habs. What fun that would be.

[startswithaj]

i believe they explain how he can have the mark and still be a believer. The fact that the bible talks about choosing to take the mark of the beast....chang was drugged and forced into recieving it. I'm pretty sure u have to choose to take it.
-justin