The Bible Doctrine Concerning Death

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These texts and commentary have been complied to give an overview of the biblical view of death. Some will be surprised at what the Bible has to say. I have also listed answers to a number of questions dealing in depth with texts that might seem counter to this view.

I realize that there is a great deal of reading here, but I included as many texts as possible so that the overall picture can be clearly seen by anyone who wishes to know what the Bible says.

Anyone is free to ask questions about the material posted here. Please be sure to read through any applicable sections first because many questions are already answered there.

It should also be noted that the most important thing about death is it is only temporary for the believer! We have a great hope in the resurrection of Christ.



PART 1: Texts that speak about the nature of death, the soul, etc.


DEATH

Immortality of nature is an attribute that distinguishes God from men--Only God is Immortal

RO 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

1TI 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1TI 6:11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

The human soul is not immortal

EZE 18:3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

PS 26:9 Do not take away my soul along with sinners, my life with bloodthirsty men,

PS 116:8 For you, O LORD, have delivered my soul from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling,

PR 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.

Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

MT 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul is the dust + the breath of life. A soul is a human being.

GE 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens-- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground-- 7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (The KJV renders this ‘soul’, the NIV ‘being’, to note that what is formed is a person from the components)



We deserve death, but God gives eternal life as a gift–conditional immortality

RO 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

2TI 1:8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

RO 6:19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We do not receive immortality immediately, though we do have assurance of it. This happens at the second coming of Christ, at the resurrection. This is why the second coming is the hope of the New Testament Christians.

EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

2TI 4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge,will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

1CO 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.



1CO 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For theperishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

1TH 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

JN 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.


RO 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

At the resurrection our bodies become like Christ’s body

1CO 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

JN 20:24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

(This text describes Jesus post-resurrection body)

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Until the resurrection we are truly dead, we ‘sleep’ in the dust (see above also)

JOB 14:12 so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep



PS 7:4 if I have done evil to him who is at peace with me or without cause have robbed my foe-- then let my enemy pursue and overtake me; let him trample my life to the ground and make me sleep in the dust. Selah

PS 13:3 Look on me and answer, O LORD my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death;

PS 90:5 You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning-- though in the morning it springs up new, by evening it is dry and withered.

JN 11:1 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair. 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, "Lord, the one you love is sick." When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it." 5 Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 Yet when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days. Then he said to his disciples, "Let us go back to Judea.""But Rabbi," they said, "a short while ago the Jews tried to stone you, and yet you are going back there?" Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? A man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light. 10 It is when he walks by night that he stumbles, for he has no light." After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him." Then Thomas (called Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with him." On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home. Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask." Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" "Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."

MT 9:23 When Jesus entered the ruler's house and saw the flute players and the noisy crowd, 24 he said, "Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep." But they laughed at him. 25 After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up. 26 News of this spread through all that region.

The dead do not ascend to heaven, (With the exception of Moses)

JUDE 1:8 In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

(This text shows that Moses’ body was contended for, not just his soul. Moreover, it is clear that this was an unusual event, as there was a dispute over whether this could happen. At this point, Christ had not died yet for the sinner.)

AC 2:29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

" `The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 5 until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet." '

JN 20:15 "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him." Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

The dead do not have sentient thoughts in the grave

PS 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

(NIV says "plans", KJV says "thoughts"...either way, they cease to be)

ECC 9:3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope--even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

What about dead spirits?

Levit. 20:7 Mediums, etc. forbidden

`I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.

Deut. 18:9

When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

I Chronic. 10:13 Saul died for consulting a medium

Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

Isaiah 8:19 Don't consult dead, but go to the Lord

When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.

I John 4:1 Must test spirits

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

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Part 2: In depth discussions of texts that seem to contradict the above view

When presented with the above texts many have questions about the idea that we are unconscious in death, in the grave. These are often based on texts that seem to conflict with this idea. i have identified 10 texts that I too wondered about when I first began to study the issue. And then I list my findings.


2 Corinthians 5:1-10-Away from the body, at home with the Lord


2CO 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2CO 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad .


Some notes:

a. Paul does not say that when our tent is gone we are free from the body. He says that when our tent is gone we will have an eternal HOUSE, a lasting structure, a replacement for the weak tent. This is a parallel to the new body talked about in Corinthians 15, and would be similar to Jesus' resurrection body. It is a body without corruption.

b. He says that we meanwhile groan, longing to be clothed with the heavenly body so we won't be found NAKED. Now we see three states. 1. Tent 2. Heavenly building 3. Unclothed, or naked. The word "groaning" is rather instructive. It is not the only time Paul uses the phrase in regard to the body. Notice this passage in Romans:


RO 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

The hope is that God will soon end this earth that is groaning under the weight of sin, and we , and it will be redeemed. The "redemption of our body" is the hope they were saved in. But it is not yet. In fact, the text implies it is at Jesus coming at the restoration of all things.

Now, notice then that the state of being unclothed, is nakedness. Paul wants not to be dead...naked...but to be clothed with his heavenly body..the redemption of his body. He wants out of this dying old tent, and to see his hopes realized.

c. in vs. 4 we see another parallel to his theology in I Corinthians 15. Verse 4 reads..."For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life."

Now let's plug in our definitions, and see if it works.

For while we are in this (current body) we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be ( dead), but to be clothed with our (new heavenly body), so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Now when is the mortal swallowed up by life? The same passage that we looked at above, I Corinthians 15 makes this clear:


1CO 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Putting the texts from all of Paul's writings together that use similar language helps us to see that these three states are the same he has talked about before.
1. This life
2. Sleep in death
3. New body, with the Lord.

d. verse 6 again summarizes, that we would rather be out of this body (the weak tent), and with the Lord. And note that it ends with a picture of appearing before the judgement seat of Christ to receive a reward for that done in this earthly body.

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Luke 23:43-Thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise"

(This first part was written by my wife Sophia7 but I reproduced it here to save time over re-writing it.)

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Some people say that Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross--"Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise'" (Luke 23:43, NIV)--is evidence that people go to heaven immediately after death. However, we should remember that Jesus did not ascend to heaven that day when He died (and, as I believe, neither did the thief). After the Resurrection, when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, He said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father" (John 20:17). He did not return to heaven until he had appeared to the disciples for 40 days (Acts 1:3). Therefore, it would make no sense for Him to tell the thief that he would be in paradise with Him that day.

The text actually makes more sense if read as follows: "Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.'" Because the Greek manuscripts that were used to translate the New Testament did not use punctuation, it is possible that when translated into English, the commas were misplaced to reflect people's own assumptions about how it should read. It does not fit with other biblical evidence for Jesus to tell the thief that he would immediately go to heaven when Jesus didn't.

One more text I thought of on this subject is Acts 2:29-36, from Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost:


29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

" `The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand

AC 2:35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '

AC 2:36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."



Thus, Peter was aware that David did not ascend to heaven but that he remained in his grave. Jesus, on the other hand, did ascend to heaven but left an empty grave. He did not ascend in spirit form but as a whole person, a whole being, a whole soul (including the body, with the wounds in His hands and all). Likewise, we will ascend to heaven when Jesus comes again, as whole souls (body plus life-giving breath of God), clothed with the immortality that Jesus promised us in 1 Corinthians 15.

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Now another question raised by this text is the nature of Paradise.


In the OT we have many references to people going to their resting place, in fact a common resting place. Some have looked at these verses, along with those referencing paradise in the New Testament to make a doctrine that says that paradise was a place under ground for those who died previous to Jesus resurrection.

but my question is, where do we find this?

The only three references I have found to the underlying Greek word are the theif on the cross (Luke 23:43) and the reference to the trees in the garden (Revelation 2:7) and Paul's reference to a man (which he later clarifies as himself) who was caught up to paradise in vision, or in the body, he wasn't sure. (2 Corinthians 12:4)

Now from these texts we note that:

a. one text deals with the abode of God and it was UP not down. This is the one where Paul relates being caught up

b. The tree text refers to this same abode of God, except that Revelation indicates that God will set up shop on the new earth.

c. The third one is the thief text examined above.


In the above texts the term always applies to the abode of God, not as a resting place of all the dead.


It is clear that Jesus did not go to paradise because He had not yet ascended to the Father.

For those who say that Paradise was in a different spot before, what do they base it on? Usually the story of the rich man and Lazarus covered later.

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John 11:25-26 "Whoever lives and believes in me will never die"


The quote is part of a larger story dealing with the resurrection of Lazarus. The statement must be taken in light of what Martha said regarding the last day resurrection:



JN 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

JN 11:24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

JN 11:27 "Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world. "

First Jesus affirms that those who die, believing in Him will live again. However, this seems to contrast with His next statement:

" and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Now at first glance these statements don't go together. If those who die believing in Him will live again, how can He say that those who live and believe will never die? Either they die and are raised, or they don't die. How can it be both? In fact, Lazarus believed in Him, yet he is dead.

To understand this we need to remember Martha's comment which is the context. She mentions the resurrection, AT THE LAST DAYS. At the last days we see that

a. those who are dead and belived (like Lazarus) are raised to life
b. those who are alive , who believe in Him don't have to die.

These two elements of the last day resurrection are spelled out well in 1Thessalonians 4

1TH 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

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Luke 16:19-31-The story of the rich man and Lazarus


I readily admit that this text does speak of a discussion between dead people. But I intend to show that the story is perhaps not so much a story of the actual happenings after death, but a story meant to show a particular point, and may in some places be highly figurative. The view of disembodied souls living on after death was familiar to Jesus' audience as the hellenistic culture of the Greeks/Macedonians had long before been exported by Alexander the great throughout his empire. So Jesus referring to commonly known stories, is not all that unusual.

If you disagree with this analysis, fair enough. Just give it a fair reading. I take the view of this text both because of the internal evidence, and the other texts relating to the nature of Sheol/Hades in the Bibl.


The first argument in this regard is the context of the story. Earlier in chapter 16 we see Jesus telling the story of the dishonest steward. After this story Jesus directly addresses the love of money in the Pharisees:

LK 16:14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.[/quote]He then gives two brief notes on different topics, then comes to this story. It seems to have an even harder hitting point about the use of wealth.

Here is the text.

LK 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.[/quote]As is often the case in Jesus' stories we have two contrasting figures here. The rich man, with all the things he could want, and the beggar who is hungry, has sores and even has dogs harassing him. Clearly the contrast in intentional, just as with the stories of the pharisee and the tax collector, and the widow and the judge.

Here the story is meant to show how our current life situation and actions effect our future life.

LK 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

At this point I would like to point out some of the purely figurative elements in this story.

A. Father Abraham is in charge of the righteous dead. I think it goes without saying that we don't see this in any other passage. The closest we come are the passages that speak of going to rest with the fathers. But in these cases it is often clear that is in the grave.

B. Heaven and Hell are in plain view of each other. I am not sure we would teach that either. Some, simply on the basis of this text, have taken the idea that all the dead went to one place until Jesus died and rose, then the division was made with people in heaven. But since this is never stated in the Bible, I am not sure this is a terribly valid argument.

C. We have an apparently disembodied spirit, or some would have us believe he is, who is wanting water, just enough to cool his tongue. How would a spirit benefit from water? And how would cooling ones tongue help with such torment? It is clearly meant to stress the severity of the punishment.

The words often translated as hell in the NT are often different, and some of them refer to a holding place for evil forces (Tarterus) , and others to fiery punishment (Gehenna), and destruction.

Here the term used is Hades, which often corresponds to the OT Sheol, or the grave, but here may be used in reference to the Greek underworld myth. The Greeks called Hades the place of the underworld. And there of course there were living people BOTH good and evil in corresponding locations.

D. The story does not say anything about spirits. The story reads, the angels carried the whole body there, which doesn't seem to fit the common notion of spirits being in hell.




LK 16:25 "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
This appears to be the main point of the story.

A. this life effects the next
B. a great gulf is fixed, you can't switch after you die. This life is where it is decided.


LK 16:27 "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

LK 16:29 "Abraham replied, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

LK 16:30 " `No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

LK 16:31 "He said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " This last bit is fascinating. Here Jesus is making a direct swipe at the disbelieving pharisees. Not only is he accusing them of loving money, but He is saying they refuse to believe, and this belief will hurt their future life.

Notice he says they will not believe even if someone raises from the dead. Who was it in the story that was supposed to go back from the dead to warn them? Lazarus. A direct reference to what Jesus was in fact going to do, which illustrated the way death works quite clearly. Lazarus died, then was raised to life. Jesus said he slept.

In fact, Jesus prophecy was true. When Lazarus, the real Lazarus, was raised from the dead, they did not believe:


JN 11:43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

JN 11:45 Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, put their faith in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.
"What are we accomplishing?" they asked. "Here is this man performing many miraculous signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation."

While Jesus' story contains elements that relate to life immediately after death, they are clearly a part of a figurative story meant to relate a warning to the pharisees. He seems to be employing elements of Greek myth, which was known to his audience at the time.

Moreover, the overall point of His story is true. We will suffer if in this life we are Godless and selfish. And we will suffer in flames. Therefore Jesus is not being dishonest by employing a story with Greek details to convey a real point.

Here is the rundown on texts regarding hades/sheol again:

Note the text here by a follower of God:

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

Does that sound like paradise? It sounds like the grave.

Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Isa 38:18 For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness.

Job 14:13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Notice that the SEA also holds people as well as hades...the grave. Of course, in fairness, this is a symbolic context. So it is of less value.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.


Here we see a NT text that is not in a symbolic context:

Act 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.
Act 2:25 For David says concerning him, "'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
Act 2:26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope.
Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
Act 2:28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'
Act 2:29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

David is dead. He is buried to this day. He is in the grave, just as Jesus was. But Jesus was not abandoned to the grave.He did not see decay.

Act 2:30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,
Act 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.
Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
Act 2:35 until I make your enemies your footstool.'
Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

This is long after the resurrection. But David did not ascend. He is still in the grave. If sheol was temporary and ended at the resurrection, where is David? Why did he not ascend?
the prophecy was not about him, just Jesus. And Jesus did ascend being raised from the grave without corruption.
David is dead, buried until the resurrection when he will ascend.Otherwise there are not many usages of the term Hades to consider in the NT. Which is why I primarily look at the OT equivalent. We need to find some idea of meaning through usage. And the only time we see this two area, split realm of the dead is in the parable here, which just happens to follow Greek notions of the underworld.

[tall73]

1 Samuel 28:4-23 Saul, the witch of Endor, and the spirit of Samuel


The story of Saul consulting the witch of Endor is an interesting glimpse into the dangers of consulting the dead. It is also a text that is used to show that we go immediately to heaven, etc.

Here is the story, along with my commentary.


1SA 28:4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all the Israelites and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her."
"There is one in Endor," they said.

Saul who had now continually refused to admit his rebellion was thoroughly cut off from God's will. Since he could not find answers from the Lord, he sought a medium to consult with–though he well knew the prohibition against doing so, and had killed the mediums himself. Of course, one has to wonder how long ago that was, since even some of his own men now knew right where one was.


1SA 28:8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

1SA 28:9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"

1SA 28:10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."

1SA 28:11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.

1SA 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

1SA 28:13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground."

1SA 28:14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

1SA 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

Now there are a couple of questions. First of all, is this man in a robe really Samuel. There is apparently a curtain or something in the way so that Saul cannot see, or perhaps the lady herself is the only one seeing anything. But even if it is Samuel, notice the details....he came up from the ground...and said, why have you disturbed me? In other words, the implication is he was in the ground dead. Unless of course we would say Samuel was in Hell, and there is no evidence of that. And even if there was, why would he mind being disturbed from there!

In any case, my theory is this is not Samuel. God was very stern in telling them not to consult mediums:


DT 18:9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

Even Saul paid the price for doing so:
1CH 10:13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.[/quote]Why was God so adamant about this? Because if, as many texts attest to, the dead are really dead, then it is not the dead they are talking to, but evil spirits. Afterall, while there is some evidence that people are not disembodied spirits at death, we all know that demons are spirits. And I think this is why God forbade people to have anything to do with spells, the occult, necromancy, etc.


1SA 28:16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors--to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

1SA 28:20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.

1SA 28:21 When the woman came to Saul and saw that he was greatly shaken, she said, "Look, your maidservant has obeyed you. I took my life in my hands and did what you told me to do. 22 Now please listen to your servant and let me give you some food so you may eat and have the strength to go on your way."

1SA 28:23 He refused and said, "I will not eat."
But his men joined the woman in urging him, and he listened to them. He got up from the ground and sat on the couch .

Some say that because Samuel gave a true message that it was truly him. And the text could go either way. But it is also true that the message totally discouraged Saul, and in the end drove him to suicide.

Moreover, God had already said He would NOT talk to Saul, and neither would Samuel. Why would he now?

To sum it up, there are two possibilities for this text.

a. Saul consulted a demon
b. Saul consulted Samuel who was summoned FROM BELOW, and was disturbed from his previous state.

The evidence seems clear either way that Samuel was dead. Not in heaven.

[tall73]

Matthew 17:1-3 (and other accounts of the transfiguration) Why are Moses and Elijah present with Jesus?


MT 17:1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

It is of course evident that there are two people here talking to Jesus, from the past, who are not dead and in the grave.

For Elijah this is easily explained. He was taken to heaven alive in a chariot of fire.

2KI 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, "My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!" And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.

Moses, and this one is fascinating, actually did have his body recovered. We find this in Jude. Now, not only is it fascinating, but notable for it being the EXCEPTION.

Here is the text that references it:

JUDE 1:8 In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them.

Notice that he specifically mentions Michael disputing over the BODY of Moses. Why a dipsute? Because Jesus had not even died yet, to assure the redemption of our bodies.

But we can see from this text that it is quite reasonable that Moses was an exception and was in heaven with his body.


(http://showthread.php?p=18928474#post18928474)

[tall73]

Luke 20:37-38 The Saducees and the resurrection, "all are alive to Him."

Luk 20:37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.
Luk 20:38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him."

Jesus is answering a question from the Sadducees about the resurrection. The question is a trap of course, and in fact the Sadducees do not even accept that there was a resurrection. So Jesus points out that there is a resurrection of the dead.

God does not regard a temporary sleep as a troubling matter. The statement "all are alive to him" must be taken in the context of his earlier statement, ie, "that the dead are raised even Moses showed." In other words, the issue is the resurrection, which the Saducees denied, but Jesus upholds. The Saducees did not believe in an afterlife, resurrection or angels, etc.

[tall73]

Revelation 6:9-10 Souls under the altar


REV 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"



a. The word soul here is interesting, and some take it to mean that it is a disembodied entity. however, they do not get this definition from the Bible. Genesis two says that God formed man INTO a living soul, not that he had a living soul.

b. If you take a stricly literal view of this then the saints are constrained to sit under an altar all day, fully cognizant. That doesn't seem to be a view expressed anywhere else in scripture.

d. This text is a representation of those who pour out their lives on the altar of sacrifice. Paul used a similar figure in refering to his life being a drink offering. They literally gave over their whole selves just as the animal was wholly consumed. So they are pictured as being under the altar where the blood would run down to.

e. Note this passage with what I would consider to be a similar symbolic representation:


Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Are we to assume there was literal blood crying out? It is a simlar scene here. A symbolic cry for judgement on those who are destroying God's people.

[tall73]

Luke 23:46-" Into your hands I commit my Spirit"


LK 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

A few notes:

a. If Jesus' spirit went to God why did He tell Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father?


JN 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

b. the verse itself, if you read it literally, says exactly what happened. The word is pneuma. It is where we derive pneumatic from. it is translated as breath or spirit etc. Essentially the verse could quite literally be read, "Into your hands I commit my breath, then Jesus breathed His last."

we translate the same word spirit or breathe depending on the context. But I would say the context here supports the view that he breathed his last breath.

Additionally, He said He commits it to God based on the scriptures.

a. God gave it in the first place:


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


but note that it is quite distinct from the soul, which was the completed whole.

b. it is said to go back to God when a person dies


ECC 12:6 -7Remember him--before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel broken at the well, and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. NIV

notice , even here the spirit is not seen as a sentient being, but a force, given by God.

Again, Job makes it even more plain:


Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

In this example of Hebrew parallelism he notes that the spirit of God's continuance in his nostrils (he is still drawing breath), is a sign of his still being alive...(and as long as he is alive, in context, he will maintain his assertion).

The point is, Jesus is not talking about a sentient spirit or soul returning. He is talking about giving up His last breath. If He were saying He was going to heaven then He would contradict himself in speaking to Mary when He said "I have not yet ascended to my Father."

[tall73]

I Peter 3:13-22-Spirits in prison

1PE 3:13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened." 15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17 It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

This text is really a challenging one, and I hope others will share their views on it as well. Any look at a decent commentary will note that interpretations vary on this text. There are several questions that any expositor must ask. Of course, some might not really have an answer in Scripture, and others might.

A. What is the relation of the story of the spirits in prison to Peter's main point....suffering, as Christ suffered.

B. who are the spirits?

C. What is the prison? How did they wind up there?

D. When did Jesus preach to them? How did Jesus preach to them? What did Jesus preach to them? Why did Jesus preach to them?

G. What does it mean for Jesus to be made alive by the Spirit?

H. How does this part of the passage relate to Peter's comments directly after this that speak of our actions in the body, etc?
These are all big questions. I don't know if the Bible actually answers all of them.


Some see that it teaches that people's spirits are in prison alive at this moment, rather than the whole person sleeping in death. Others say that Jesus went to preach by His spirit during His death. Do these conclusions follow? To see we have to look at the text phrase by phrase.


For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit

First of all, we can say that Jesus was put to death, and buried, most everyone agrees on the basics of that statement.

But then what does it mean when it says that He was raised by the Spirit? Some read it as Jesus' spirit going somewhere. But it does not say He was raised as a spirit, but by the Spirit, or the Holy Spirit.

Now He did have a spiritual body (talk about confusing) according to 1 Corinthians 15, but we see in his interaction with the disciples that it was in many respects a normal body.

In any case, the idea that Jesus' had a sentient spirit is not here shown.

Of course, it is a bit unusual in that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all at different times credited with the resurrection...but I suppose it is a support for the trinity.


John 10:17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."


Ephesians 1:19 That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

now for the next section....

through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built


Jesus went to preach....through the Spirit..the same one that raised Him from the dead.


This is not too foreign an idea since Jesus told his disciples that he would not leave them as orphans, but would send the Spirit so that He could be where they were.


JN 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me[/quote]

What did He preach? Why ? Etc. we don't know.

to spirits in prison

Now one can assume that these were human spirits, but that doesn't necessarily follow.

A. do we ever actually see a text talking about people as spirits? The only possibility I can think of is the souls under the altar, and even then they are called souls, not spirits, but some have taken it that way. In the story of the rich man and Lazarus again some say so, but it never mentions spirits, it says that angels carried them, and that water would be helpful for his tongue, etc. so they seem to have physical bodies.

B. Peter makes mention of spirits in prison. And they are not human. We see a reference to them in Jesus' ministry as well.

2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment...

Here the word Tartarus is translated hell. We see mention of a similar place in Jesus' dealings with demons.


Luke 8: 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!" 29 For Jesus had commanded the evil spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places. Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.

If Peter makes reference to spirits in prison that are not human, and there are not clear cut references to people's disembodied spirits around, why should we take it that these spirits are human?


who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

This brings up two issues:

1. Timing - did Jesus preach to them through the Spirit during that time? Through Noah? Later? After His resurrection? It is all unclear. And for that matter, it is unclear what Peter is talking about at all. However, I would submit that this was a nice segue into Peter's comparison with baptism. And the immediate context, connected as it is with the discussion of Jesus' death, could be taken to mean that He went soon after His death. But the timing issue is really all up in the air.

2. Who were these spirits? What happened around the time of Noah? We don't know that either. Although there is one speculative answer. And note, I said speculative...I don't say this as doctrine at all. There is a text that some people feel is speaking of spirits, that occurred around the time of the flood, and might be something that would call for judgment by God, just as he judged the earth with floods:


GE 6:1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Now of course we have probably all heard varying takes on this one too, because it too is a difficult passage. But if we take them to be spirits, they could well be these, who were disobeying in the days before Noah's flood.

My point is, there is a lot of information that NONE of us know about this text. But what we do know is that

a. It does not say that Jesus' spirit went anywhere. It says he was raised, and that He also preached by means of the Holy Spirit.

b. Peter's other reference to spirits in prison is in relation to evil angels. And given there are not direct statements in scripture about human spirits in prison, it seems like the safe way to interpret this unusual passage is that he is referring to angels.

[honorthesabbath]

I guess there's no more room for discussion!!! lol

[TrustAndObey]

I thought PaleHorse was the go-to guy on this subject, but it looks like Tall knows his stuff too! :)

[PaleHorse]

That was an awesome post, Tall73! I did a similar study and its on this forum somewhere (I can't find it now that things are shuffled around). :)

Great job!

[honorthesabbath]

This is such a good study--it shouldn't get buried so far down the pile!!

[PaleHorse]

This is such a good study--it shouldn't get buried so far down the pile!!
I fully agree! Such information is good for those that want to know why Adventists believe as we do. Even if others don't agree with it they at least can see it is very solidly supported by scripture.

[dezzie1180]

This is a great study,Tall73 and PaleHorse thanks for such great insight of the topic.

[stranger]

The soul is the dust + the breath of life. A soul is a human being.



rather the LIVING soul ia a human being, the dead soul is in hell awaiting resurrection ... but it survives the destruction of this earth in that state [since most souls are resurrected at the second resurrection in the NEW earth]

... the dead soul is thus not a human being as we know human beings ... and hell is eventually empty because all are resurrected who die ...

Ac 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

[tall73]

rather the LIVING soul ia a human being, the dead soul is in hell awaiting resurrection ... but it survives the destruction of this earth in that state [since most souls are resurrected at the second resurrection in the NEW earth]

... the dead soul is thus not a human being as we know human beings ... and hell is eventually empty because all are resurrected who die ...

Ac 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Stranger, I have spoken to some of the specific claims in this regard in the post by Trust and Obey in Gt on the nature of a soul. I am not sure whether you happened upon this link from that thread or the one in which I was addressing briefly the question of hell.

[stranger]

At the resurrection our bodies become like Christ’s body

You have failed to distinguish between resurrection to the physical body and translation AFTER that to the spirit ,so let us look more closely at Jesus' resurrection :-

Lu 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Thus Jesus was resurrected to his PHYSICAL body , wounds and all [which Thomas felt]

Only later was he translated to spirit and ascended to heaven :-

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Thus you have made a grave error, much happens between the second resurrection to the body in the new earth and the translation to spirit of those who were sinners in THIS earth , just as Jesus and the saints did in this life, everyone resurrected inthe second resurrecetion must recive baptism of the spirit into all truth and then be trialed against Satan in the righteus new earth before judgement ...

The saints inthis earth receive all truth in this earth and so they resist Satan mostly to the death [Rev 13:3-7] and so they are perfected intrial in this earth and those saints that die will be resurrected in the first resurrection and translated with the saints still alive ... this is almost immediate because these saints have been baptised into all truth by the spirit of truth and been perfected by trial in THIS life...

BUT those of the second resurrection have NOT been perfected in this life, they were sinners in this life... so they mUST receive baptism of the spirit to be able to resist Satan in the new earth and so be perfected in trial in the new earth so that they can be redeemed to the spirit in translation at the great [throne] judgement day of God...

Nobody thus can be reusrrected to anything but the physical body, translation to the spirit is a separate process in which a living body is changed , in the twikling of an eye to spirit and the body is destroyed inthat process [Jesus' body was never found after his translation , but we know he was resurrected to a physical body, not a spiritual one cos' he took such trouble showing people his body was not spirit before he was translated to spirit]

[tall73]

Stranger, I must admit, that is not making much sense to me. I don't mean that it might not have some sense in it, but it is not readily apparent to me what you mean when you are talking about being translated into spirit.

It is not my view that we will have a body like Jesus' but that of the Bible:

PHP 3:17 Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. 18 For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.


1CO 15:35 But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. 1CO 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

1CO 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."


In the latter text it says plainly that they are RAISED imperishable, and a spirit body. Yet this body retains some of its physical characteristics, just as Jesus' body did.

For instance, while Jesus did show them the wounds etc. ,and they saw He had a physical body, He also did things that normal humans do not do with physical bodies:

JN 20:26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

So the idea that we are raised with a physical body but then are translated to spirit does not seem to hold up. God gives us imperishable bodies, and these are of a different nature than the mortal ones.

Moreover, are you suggesting universalism by the statement that those in the second resurrection will be perfected?

'

[stranger]

Stranger, I must admit, that is not making much sense to me. I don't mean that it might not have some sense in it, but it is not readily apparent to me what you mean when you are talking about being translated into spirit.


Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

- Thus Enoch was translated to spirit because he was perfected in this earth even before Jesus was manifested as a man ...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It is not my view that we will have a body like Jesus' but that of the Bible:

PHP 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

- that is exactly translation to spirit , one cannot be like jesus is nOW without being changed to spirit from a mortal living body ...

Thus those who do die MUST be resurrected to a living mortal body [as jesus showed in his resurrection, a body WITH WOUNDS , not His perfect spiritual 'body' after translation that ascended to God ...

Lu 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. [Jesus , after his resurrection to the physical body, before his translation to spirit and ascension to heaven ]

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


1CO 15:35 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

1CO 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
...
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
...
49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.


1CO 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

In the latter text it says plainly that they are RAISED imperishable, and a spirit body. Yet this body retains some of its physical characteristics, just as Jesus' body did.


As Jesus showed his disciples after his resurrection, he was NOT a spirit then, that was NOT his spiritual body, it was the SAME OLD body with the WOUNDS and it had NOT CHANGED at all , NOT changed to a perfect spiritual body ... and it did not so do until Jesus bod disappeared from the earth in his translation to a spiritual body that ascended to God


For instance, while Jesus did show them the wounds etc. ,and they saw He had a physical body, He also did things that normal humans do not do with physical bodies:

JN 20:26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."


There are plenty of physical bodies who can pick locks on this earth and could perform that act , it is by no means impossible and people do such things on stages all over this earth as conjurers and prestidigitators ... it demonstrates nothing more than dexterity , Jesus himself took the trouble to STATE explicitly that he was NOT a spiritual body at that time !!

Lu 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So the idea that we are raised with a physical body but then are translated to spirit does not seem to hold up.

On the contrary, as the above scriptures prove completely, Jesus took the trouble to PROVE that he was flesh and bones and NOT spirit after his resurrection

God gives us imperishable bodies, and these are of a different nature than the mortal ones.

That is so, but the spiritual body is spirit , NOT flesh and bones , the physical body is flesh and bones and the spiritual body is CHANGED from being flesh and bones into spirit in translation

1CO 15:50 ...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

Moreover, are you suggesting universalism by the statement that those in the second resurrection will be perfected?

I'm sure you raelise that that result from scripture falls way short of universalism , but it does contradict from scripture ,and thus reprove from God's inspired words, a belief of almost all christian denominations .... that is remarkable and significant enough i think to merit attention to it ...

[TrustAndObey]

As Jesus showed his disciples after his resurrection, he was NOT a spirit then, that was NOT his spiritual body, it was the SAME OLD body with the WOUNDS and it had NOT CHANGED at all , NOT changed to a perfect spiritual body ... and it did not so do until Jesus bod disappeared from the earth in his translation to a spiritual body that ascended to God




Stranger, Jesus will have those wounds even on the new earth.

Unfortunately I don't have time right now to read through all the posts that have been made, but Stranger I do want to warn you that this is a non-debate area. I know you and I know you aren't trying to be argumentative, but others don't know you and they might think you are.

I wish this site allowed people to open private forums that people could view, but people without passwords/invitations could not join. Wouldn't that be awesome?

I'll comment on the rest later!

God bless,
~Lainie

PS...I popped half of my hip back in today and the pain is slowly starting to disappear! I feel people at church praying for me today. :)

[stranger]

Stranger, Jesus will have those wounds even on the new earth.

Unfortunately I don't have time right now to read through all the posts that have been made, but Stranger I do want to warn you that this is a non-debate area. I know you and I know you aren't trying to be argumentative, but others don't know you and they might think you are.

I wish this site allowed people to open private forums that people could view, but people without passwords/invitations could not join. Wouldn't that be awesome?

I'll comment on the rest later!

God bless,
~Lainie

PS...I popped half of my hip back in today and the pain is slowly starting to disappear! I feel people at church praying for me today. :)

Yes, it is an awesome suggestion, and we should make it to Erwin...


As usual when smeone says this to me I can only say that I have no desire too dispute or argue with anyone , I am simply trying to pare away at the veil over the truth of god in this world... I am not denominational, I do not have any creed that I feel I have to assert, i am just looking for one truth from God

Thus anyone can teach me that truth if theyhave it, i will abandon my own foolish belief on anything to anyone who can show me a 'better' truth from scripture or the holy spirit direct

My view is that the rules about non-debate are highly vague and simply allow a few to censor other's statements in favour of theirown views being posted , it just allows subjective decisions to be made on what others are allowed to say... thus it does not benefit anyone to have such rules and te site needs an OPEN forum ,open to all people , where the open-minded can post without endless hassle from those sufficiently over-zealous about their personal beliefs that they want to shut up other people from speaking

Again I know that you do not feel that way yourself , but implicitly you are supporting them in that because you are here supporting one of the several site rules that support their acts of censorship and persecution by hassling of other christians

http://www.christianforums.com/t2237716-unity-and-open-christian-fellowship-in-god-forum-proposal.html

One might justly ask what can one say if one disagrees with something, that someone somewhere might not see as 'debate' ? ... surely the scripture is not 'debate' to a christian, if one is [even] prepared toa ccept any of other people's interpretations and DISCUSS them usig ONLY further scripture ???

Thus I fail to see your point as clear at all, nor that they rules are clear or fair to all [since people use them to silence others if they disagree and thay happen to have been given the ability to delete other people's words with relative impunity ... it is elitist censorship and hardly what Jesus would approve of ] ...

[Please note that it was not i that raised this off-topic discussion]

[stranger]

Jesus will have those wounds even on the new earth.



Again I insist I am NOT arguing, simply pointing at the scripture that shows to me that this is not the case, just in case one might see the point , or correct my view of it ...

1Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God ; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So how could there be wounds if there is no FLESH ?

Jesus was resurrected to a flesh-and-bones physical body WITH wounds , but LATE translated to a spiritual body to ascend to heaven :-

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Lu 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

The spirit does not have wounds, wounds are physical things ...

the spirit is perfect and immortal, it cannot be 'wounded'

[TrustAndObey]

Again I insist I am NOT arguing, simply pointing at the scripture that shows to me that this is not the case, just in case one might see the point , or correct my view of it ...




Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

This appears to be after the resurrection of the righteous in all the commentaries I've studied (and not all are Adventist commentaries). One commentary submitted that this question will possibly be asked by someone who was righteous but had never heard of Christ--yet was still saved.

I tend to believe it means we will see the wounds and remember that our Savior died for us, but we will not remember the things of this earth anymore.


1Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.




So how could there be wounds if there is no FLESH ?

We already know that Jesus was resurrected WITH His wounds still apparent (He showed them to doubting Thomas)....which appears to contradict the verses you gave up there. But is it not possible that He chose to keep His wounds as a sign in heaven/new earth forever? Men watched Him (with a body) ascend up to heaven. Also remember that Mary did not recognize Him on resurrection morning, implying that at least His face was healed. I tend to think He purposely wants to keep the wounds that healed us.

Are you saying that He didn't ascend to the Father before He was resurrected, but did ascend some time between the resurrection and appearing to the disciples? And then ascended again 40 days after being on earth? I've heard that argument before but I'm not sure if that's what you're saying. We just have to keep in mind all the things Jesus did in those forty days (the Bible doesn't tell us much) that seem "fleshy".

I do find it odd though that the disciples did not recognize Jesus when they were in the ship.....John 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.

I'm rambling. I just got up. :) I'll add more later.

God bless,
~Lainie

[stranger]

I'm rambling. I just got up. :) I'll add more later.

God bless,
~Lainie


:)



Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

This appears to be after the resurrection of the righteous in all the commentaries I've studied (and not all are Adventist commentaries). One commentary submitted that this question will possibly be asked by someone who was righteous but had never heard of Christ--yet was still saved.

I tend to believe it means we will see the wounds and remember that our Savior died for us, but we will not remember the things of this earth anymore.


Such perhaps is the fate of those who rely on commentaries of men , to believe the traditions of men ? ....

if u want to discuss sciptural points instead of referring to the empty authority of words of men who do maybe not have all truth of God ... then we have soething to discuss , but the tradition of men mUST become apostate , Jesus said so , so the authority of men should reliably tell one [Rev 13:3-7] ,according to Jesus himself, what is false now ...

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

We already know that Jesus was resurrected WITH His wounds still apparent (He showed them to doubting Thomas)....which appears to contradict the verses you gave up there.

No it doesn't, Jesus was resurrected to the old BODY ... wounds and all, before appearing to Mary and then said that he was not yet ascended ... so he was in his old physical body with wounds and all after resurrection and wentt around showing people that it was NOT a spiritual body [the quotes I gve above already , but you missed the somehow in your tired state ... every sympathy :) ]

But is it not possible that He chose to keep His wounds as a sign in heaven/new earth forever?

We know that spirit can manifest as a man [not least in that Jesus and Satan and angels all do this] so there is no reason why this should not happen... it seems rather unimportant to know whether it will happen, but it would not be evidence if it did ... for it was a physical body jesus showed the disciples ,after resurrection but before transation to spirit ... that is not the same then as a manifestation from the spirit....


Men watched Him (with a body) ascend up to heaven. Also remember that Mary did not recognize Him on resurrection morning, implying that at least His face was healed. I tend to think He purposely wants to keep the wounds that healed us.

It is not his wounds that healed us, it is his bringing in of resurrection for sinners so that death rids man of sin and resurrection gives us sinners a new opportunity to be righteous in the new earth



Are you saying that He didn't ascend to the Father before He was resurrected, but did ascend some time between the resurrection and appearing to the disciples? And then ascended again 40 days after being on earth? I've heard that argument before but I'm not sure if that's what you're saying.

No, what I have pointed out is that the scripture states that jesus was NOT resurrected to a spiritual body , but to the old physical body, flesh and bones, complete with the old wounds ... and that he made a point of saying that he was NOT spirit but flesh and blood ... so he was translated later to spirit , and his physical body disappered inthat translation, it was never found, never buried again....

We just have to keep in mind all the things Jesus did in those forty days (the Bible doesn't tell us much) that seem "fleshy".

Hmmm that might be an interesting study sometime ...


I do find it odd though that the disciples did not recognize Jesus when they were in the ship.....John 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.

Maybe he was just going around with something like a hooded cape on so that he could show himself to whom he wanted to , but would not be revealed to everyone ?

[TrustAndObey]

No, I didn't miss what you said. I totally agree that Jesus was resurrected into His old body. But the scriptures you quoted say that at the resurrection we will put on incorruptible and we become immortal. The same stands for Christ....yet He still had the wounds? Why?

And I don't just rely on commentaries Stranger. You know me better than that. If I did do that, I'd be Catholic would I not? :)

[stranger]

No, I didn't miss what you said. I totally agree that Jesus was resurrected into His old body. But the scriptures you quoted say that at the resurrection we will put on incorruptible and we become immortal. The same stands for Christ....yet He still had the wounds? Why?

And I don't just rely on commentaries Stranger. You know me better than that. If I did do that, I'd be Catholic would I not? :)

AHHH... I think I may be seeing the misunderstanding:

it WILL be "AT" the [first] resurrection! ...

since the saints who have died are RESURRECTED to the [physical] body FIRST

then they are joined by those saints who ARE STILL ALIVE in the physical body ...

then they are all translated TOGETHER to spirit and all become immortal...

the point being that one must be BOTH PERFECTED and ALIVE in a living body for translation to spirit ...

but resurrection is for 'dead souls' [whatever that is]...


--- here the scripture that says this :-


1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air[rather 'spirit', same word in Gereek as 'air']: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

NOTE: The DEAD are raised first [the first resurrection, to the body] , then they all come together , and only then are ALL "caught up" to join Jesus [who is already immortal spirit ]

Thus the saints indeed will become immortal "AT" the first resurrection as the scripture states , but only because the dead saints are first resurrected at that same time , because they must be LIVING bodies by resurrection BEFORE the translation to immortal spirit ....

BUT when Jesus died , he was resurrected to the PHYSICAL body many days before he was translated to SPIRIT ... it just happens that with the firstfruit saints there is very little delay between the two DIFFERENT processes ..

ALSO NOTE: The PHYSICAL body is DESTROYED in translation to the spirit, the PHYSICAL body of Jesus was NEVER BURIED , never found , AFTER translation ! ... but Jesus showed many his PHYSICAL body after resurrection ...!

[I didn't mean to imply that you use commentaries as conclusive evidence, but why would you present here the fact that you read them if you weren't giving them weight ?

It simply makes it harder to understand the scripture ,if to do so one must first undo the words of tradition of men... before reading the scripture oneself and asking God in yearning prayer and meditation for understanding of what you cannot understand

[or if discussing with another one point is at least in question because others disagree with how one reads it - the problem of course is that it can take months to get an answer from God (at least that is my experience) ...

so much we learn truly is simply from reading scripture for oneself, but reading commentaries just makes the whole process OF TRUTH-FINDING actually harder and more error-prone because other men have gone so far and then just filled in the gaps to write a 'full' account ... one can no longer separate what was from God and what was not, what is true from the flanneling

one should realise that if one is moved to seek the real truth NOW [instead of waiting until God pours out His spirt on all flesh to GIVE us ALL His truth], then one is gonna have to RESIST the temptation to use shortcuts or one WILL get misled ... and it is going to be hard slow work to be SURE ...

what use then to us is NOT being SURE that the interpretations come from God? ...for we KNOW tradition of men MUST be wrong at this time [Rev 13:3-7] ,

so one could read tradition to learn what NOT to believe ,one might think !... unfortunately tradition ALSO has some truth, no denomination would exist without some truths in it ...

thus we ses that we have MANY denominations and we KNOW they cannot ALL be right

,we KNOW that almost all MUST have something wrong. ..

We KNOW all must hae something right ...

the mESS is only resolvable by reading scripture for ONESELF and asking God .pleading with Him for His truth... there are no shortcuts that will not lead one astray ,

...not that being led astray isn't serving God , just that it ain't the truth ...

So that is what my comment on commentaries is about , they necessarily are mostly tradition of men and so can be very misleading indeed, and it even must most be so ...

so dangerous to have a little truth mixed with other stuff , one tastes the sugar and swallows the whole , but we know the danger in that for the truth ,and we know that God supports that danger AT THIS TIME , for but a WHILE, for sake of His purpose (2Thess 2, Rev13:3-7)]

[TrustAndObey]

Stranger, that was the longest paragraph I have ever seen in parenthesis! LOL

Now, consider what you just told me and then ask again "what about people that don't have graves?" (This comes from a discussion in a different forum in case any of you are confused).

Remember I gave my uncle as an example...he was knocked out of his car when he was hit by a train and dragged underneath it for several miles. There was nothing left of his body to bury.

Now do you agree that even though my uncle doesn't have any of his body in a hole in the ground that he will be resurrected just like the rest of us? Those that have been cremated, do you now see that they will be resurrected just like the rest of us into their old bodies, even though those bodies have been annihilated? They may not have a "grave" in the sense that we consider a grave, but they are eventually incorporated back into the earth/dust.

Ecclesiastes 3:20 - All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

At the last trump....1 Corinthians 15:54 - So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:26 - The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Death and hell (hades...the grave) will be thrown into the firey pit. There will be no more death in heaven/new earth, but this will be after the second coming of Christ. Obviously if there is no more death there will no longer be a need for graves!

God bless,
~Lainie

PS...my back is still killing me but I'm going to see my brother-in-law today hopefully.

[TrustAndObey]

Stranger, one other thing, I saw you post in another forum that the body cannot go more than three days before seeing corruption (decay). What about Lazarus (not the one in the parable)? He was in the grave/tomb for FOUR days and he was resurrected to a regular body (obviously one without decay).

If a part of us continues to exist after death, when does it leave our bodies? I mean come on, what if people are being cremated BEFORE this entity leaves? What is the time marker for this thing to leave us? Obviously it takes more than three or four days to depart.

[stranger]

Stranger, that was the longest paragraph I have ever seen in parenthesis! LOL


LOLOL ... yes I really must do something about that ... if only I could LOL :)


Now, consider what you just told me and then ask again "what about people that don't have graves?"
Remember I gave my uncle as an example...he was knocked out of his car when he was hit by a train and dragged underneath it for several miles. There was nothing left of his body to bury.

Now do you agree that even though my uncle doesn't have any of his body in a hole in the ground that he will be resurrected just like the rest of us?


Yes, both the just and the just are resurrected , the just [saints] to the body in THIS world, the unjust [sinners] to a new body in the new earth :-

Ac 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Those that have been cremated, do you now see that they will be resurrected just like the rest of us into their old bodies, even though those bodies have been annihilated?

I don't know whether they will be resurrected into their old bodies , i see no reason for that to be necessary... a new body might well be more appropriate for those who died crippled for instance ... I do not actually see that it matters whether it is the old physical body or a new physical one ... Jesus was resurrected to his old physical body for two very good reasons , to show that he really was physical flesh and bones , not spirit, after resurrection , NOT YET a spiritual body ... and so the ones who saw him could [eventually] recognise him [once he revealed himself to them]

sinners resurrected in the new earth will not have their old bodies back since they are destroyed in the end of this earth [asuming it has ended by then]

saints will mostly not be able to be resurrected to their old bodies perhaps since their bodies hae been destroyed too much ... who can tell and what does it matter? ... the saints who are resurrected at the first resurrection are only in their [new or old] body briefly , then they are almost immediately translated to spirit along with the very few saints who do not see death at all... so what does it amtter wht body they had briefly?

If your unncle was a sinner,like most of us, then he will get a new physical body in the new earth , likely a better one than the one he died with since in the new earth one must receive all truth of god in spirit baptism and then be perfected in trial before translation at judgment day if god finds one has been righteous in the righteous new earth....

thus perhaps one may need a better new body in the new earth than the body one died with ... i cannt tell, but it seems a possibility ... the main point is that it is a PHYSICAL body BECAUSE sinners are NOT perfected in THIS life , so they [we] must be perfected in the next life before judgment [else the final trial of those who reject all God's truth [given to all at last] in the new earth, the lake of fire ...]

They may not have a "grave" in the sense that we consider a grave, but they are eventually incorporated back into the earth/dust.

Yes, their bodies are recycled by the earth ... but then how can one say that they are in the 'grave' as you claim they are ? [if 'grave' is the meaning of 'hades' ]

Ecclesiastes 3:20 - All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

I agree, the body is made out of elements of the earth ['dust'] and gets recycled to that same 'dust' .... that is understood, but WHAT goes on , what is in 'hades' that is resurrected in the new [or old] physical body ... maybe there is nothing, god simply 'remembers' that there was a soul and so creates a new body [or rekindles the old one if available] and breathes a soul into that .... but in that case there is no necessary relationship between the new soul and the old one ... is the 'individual' presenved somehow then, is there any identity between the new soul and the old one?

Is there any basis to say that this is the SAME person? ... with Jesus it was clear because he had his wounds and his appearance which convinced people , but what does ne have with a new body ? [Is it simply a copy of the body one once ghad at some satage in life ? ... it does not seem that it could be ,since infants that die youndg or in the womb often die because of genetic defects that prohibit life... thus a new body would have to be dIFFERENT for life to continue to TRIAL and perfection ...]

Thus I am unsure of what a 'dead soul' is, even of whether it means anything, but something has to be transferred through hades to the new earth that preserves identity , if identity is to be preserved at all....


At the last trump....1 Corinthians 15:54 - So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:26 - The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


Thes passages refer to the final translation to spirit, NOT to death, nor to resurrection to the physical body from death ... it is translation to spirit that finally makes us immortal , not resurrection to a physical body

Death and hell (hades...the grave) will be thrown into the firey pit. There will be no more death in heaven/new earth, but this will be after the second coming of Christ. Obviously if there is no more death there will no longer be a need for graves!

agreed! :) 'hades' comes to an end when death does, there is no eternal 'hell' in hades for the dead as many claim ...

PS...my back is still killing me but I'm going to see my brother-in-law today hopefully.

I'm glad that you can finally get some advice and a clear diagnosis ... I doubt that you will get by so easily without some painkillers ... i found that taking aspirin reduced the inflammatin and that one can then take paracetamol whenever the pain is too great [the aspirin accentuates the pain-killing effect of the paracetaml ... very effectivve against severe pains as backs can cause ...

This combination then provides both reduction of inflammation required fr healing and pain relief and is far safer than the many newer drugs no typuically prescribed for back pain and inflammation... the only question then is how well one tolerates aspirin, some can tolerate it well , as myself, a few get irritation of te stomach... thus if the stomach becomes sore it is an indicationto move on to tye more dangerous newer drugs ...unfortunately drug companies have succeeded inputting many doctors off the use of aspirin with scare-mongering about gastric ulcers ... we know far more about the real cause of gastrc ulcer these days and they are now curable quite straightforwardly, unlie the side effect of al the newer drugs ... it is one of the sadder tales in Medcine that the lust for money deprives very many people of the best knowntreatments for their ailments [just because aspirin is much cheaper than the newer drugs]

Anyway please tell me more about the specifics of where your pain is , how and which movements affect it , whether wearng a belt helps , whether it can be relieved by particular postures , whether you can sit, sleep ,stand, etc and in particular if it goes down the back of your leg ... if you wish remote advice on how to proceed in getting the best chance of swift recovery , but maybe do it in a PM , not here ... I am supposing that your brother-in-law will be able to diagnose whether it is a pulled muscle or the perhaps-more-likely 'slipped disk' and help you with advice on how to chnage the way you do things so as to minimise the pain and maximise the rate of recovery... anti-inflammatory drugs like aspirin help considerably with both since the swelling causes even more damage in movement of the swollen parts and the pain causes other muscles tocontract and exacerbate the pain... if it is a slipped disc then a simple leather belt will help a great deal, stablising the muscles and minimising stran on the back... then as soon as the swelling is gotten down by use of drugs, one needs to start a progressive excercise routine, walking and/or swinmming , to get things back toward normal and stregthen the muscle support around the back , and correct any posture cahnges caused by the pain... ]

So my sympathes in your pan, i have been through this myself ... but prhas youcan gain some assurance inthat in that it wil get better ... so set about finding the best way to help it get better quickly ... :)

In that may His pece come upon you to help you relax ...
surprisingly perhaps relaxing can cause much pain to cease since pain causes spasm in other muscles around the painful area , adding to the pain...
so your brother-in-law may help stop the spasm ad dugs will help too, and if you relax and learn how to do things without straining the back , then the spasm will not return and all will mend quite nicely ...

So be at peace and I wll pray for your speedy recovery, :)
Roger

[KayD]

Hi,

Don't want to derail the debate, but to Tall73 or anyone familiar with this, can you let me know what the answer for this is?

I was recently speaking with someone who must have been doing a Sabbath School lesson or Bible study with someone. The individual was informed that those who arose from the grave when Christ was resurrected, also ascended to heaven with Him. The individual stated that they were told that EGW stated such in one of her writings. I told the individual that I am only aware of three individuals making it to heaven, aside from Christ (Enoch, Moses, and Elijah), and that though I haven't read all of EGW's writings, that I do not recall seeing that statement (that those who arose with Christ at His resurrection, also went to heaven with Him) in any of what I've read of her writings.

I don't want to be guilty of giving this person the wrong info, so if this is not so, can you direct me to where this was written or stated in the Bible or any of EGW's writings? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks much.

[stranger]

His sister Lainie , :)

Stranger, one other thing, I saw you post in another forum that the body cannot go more than three days before seeing corruption (decay). What about Lazarus (not the one in the parable)? He was in the grave/tomb for FOUR days and he was resurrected to a regular body (obviously one without decay).

Good point , obviously it is longer than three days before the body is not re-usable ... if indeed that is ever the case for those resurrected in THIS earth [Still does not answer the problem about resurrection in the new earth , but then we have not either of us proved either way from scripture whether that happens or not as yet ... still working on that :) ]

If a part of us continues to exist after death, when does it leave our bodies?

We know the spirit returns to God at death , I'm not sure how one would know when, but since life depats immediately at death, presumably the spirit goes straight away?

If the 'soul' is the life , and is formed by the spirit entering the body, then the soul [life] ends at death too and then there is no such thing as a 'dead soul' in the grave or in hades or anywhere ... so why would the bible talk about Jesus' soul being in 'hades' even if that is the grave as you contend ? [much scripture indeed fits that idea :) ]

[u]
I mean come on, what if people are being cremated BEFORE this entity leaves? What is the time marker for this thing to leave us? Obviously it takes more than three or four days to depart


I am by no means suggesting that 'it' is a 'thing' , I am far from sure it exists as an 'entity' ... my current best assessment is that the body is just reassembled by God or in cases that is not possible, re-created .... thus all that persists at death is God's 'memory' as-it-were of what the ndividual was ... thus a 'dead soul' [an unfortunate oxymoron, but i can give it no other name] is simply God's knowledge of the individual, sufficient to recreate a VIABLE facsimile ... and there's the problem with that, God HAS to CHANGE the body , just to make some bodies live again ... many bodies die BECAUSE their genetic make-up is NOT viable, they cannot live as they are ...

So if God CHANGES the genetics to make the bodyy live, then it is nOT the same person at all ! ... it is not resurrection, it is a nEW creation, a nEW person, a nEW and DIFFERENT individual ....

resurrection loses its meaning unless it is in some way the samd person as died, but in manyy cases that is just not possible , the resurrected identical person would judt die again , as they did the first time [e.g. because of a genetic defect]

[stranger]

Hi,

Don't want to derail the debate, but to Tall73 or anyone familiar with this, can you let me know what the answer for this is?

I was recently speaking with someone who must have been doing a Sabbath School lesson or Bible study with someone. The individual was informed that those who arose from the grave when Christ was resurrected, also ascended to heaven with Him. The individual stated that they were told that EGW stated such in one of her writings. I told the individual that I am only aware of three individuals making it to heaven, aside from Christ (Enoch, Moses, and Elijah), and that though I haven't read all of EGW's writings, that I do not recall seeing that statement (that those who arose with Christ at His resurrection, also went to heaven with Him) in any of what I've read of her writings.

I don't want to be guilty of giving this person the wrong info, so if this is not so, can you direct me to where this was written or stated in the Bible or any of EGW's writings? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks much.

We have this somewhat absolute statement from John :-

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Which is a little hard perhaps to reconcile literally with :-

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

[KayD]

We have this somewhat absolute statement from John :-

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Which is a little hard perhaps to reconci