Do you believe that you have to be able to speak in tongues to be a true Christian [Archive]

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RedKnight

9th October 2005, 06:04 PM

Why yes or why no? Just what I wanted to hear.

covenantwmn

9th October 2005, 09:42 PM

No, I don't. Like baptism, tho important and instructed, the thief on the cross did neither and Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise the same day. Blessings.:)
in Him, Leslie

Entertaining_Angels

9th October 2005, 10:23 PM

No

1 Corinthians 12

Spiritual Gifts

1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28629a)] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28629b)] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28632c)] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28649d)]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28650e)] the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

Shannonkish

9th October 2005, 11:03 PM

No, I do not believe it is. I think it is a gift... however, I don't think it is required for salvation.

Raistlinorr

10th October 2005, 12:33 AM

No, I do not believe it is. I think it is a gift... however, I don't think it is required for salvation.

Agreed.

Svt4Him

10th October 2005, 12:52 AM

No. Why? Well because you don't.

Belinda

10th October 2005, 02:25 AM

nah

linchen

10th October 2005, 02:34 AM

No, I do not believe it is. I think it is a gift... however, I don't think it is required for salvation.

I agree.
Even if the tongues are a very usefull gift they are not
essential for salvation.
To be a true Christian means to have repented of
our sins and to have a new life as a gift from Jesus.

Ratchet

10th October 2005, 11:53 AM

Why yes or why no?

I don't think so but I guess some people might.:confused:

Kelly

10th October 2005, 11:57 AM

Jesus was all about accepting people other rejected. Anyone who's teaching that manifestation of gifts is a requirement for salvation is wrong. I think the one gift he wanted to see in all of us is love.

Shannonkish

10th October 2005, 11:58 AM

I would agree Kelly! Good Post!

discernomatic

10th October 2005, 12:21 PM

Quantos

10th October 2005, 02:25 PM

No

If so, how could someone who was mute ever be a true christian ?

RedKnight

10th October 2005, 05:55 PM

Good answers people Those were the very answers I wanted to hear

Entertaining_Angels

10th October 2005, 06:00 PM

Now, if you want more of a variety in your replies, go post this question in the pentecostal side of the house here.

shakingthedustoffmyfeet

10th October 2005, 06:03 PM

no. I am Pentecostal/Charismatic. I am a member of a Presbyterian Church. I attend it Sunday a.m. with my husband and my other church Sunday and Wednesday p.m. One definitely does not have to speak in tongues to be a true Christian.

How in the world could that idea be Biblical?

White Horse

10th October 2005, 06:29 PM

OK...reading this thread I pick up three things...speaking in tongues is

Important
Instructed
Useful
I would like someone to show me where any of that is Biblical.

What's important about it? The only thing I can find "important" about any tongues is when the disciples were speaking in a foreign language that they hadn't been schooled in. That was important to spread the gospel to those who might not otherwise hear it, but I know that's not the "tongues" y'all are refering to. Show me where speaking in "unknown" tongues is important.

I want to know where the Bible "instructs" me to speak in tongues...known or unknown.

I want to know what's "useful" about what we now consider "tongues", when no one in the congregation, including the speaker, as any inkling as to what in the world you're going on about.

I'd also like to know what purpose it serves. Frankly, I've seen it do absolutely nothing but cause haughtiness and division...and that certainly does not sound like anything produced by the Holy Spirit I know.

And before someone starts thinking I'm knocking anyone for it, please make sure you know that people I love so dearly I can't even express it are pew jumpers. Relatives, including my baby sister, for whom I would kill or be killed (and have almost done both), and friends who are every bit as close to me as family. So I'm not knocking Charismatic practices. It's not my place to tell you what's right between you and God. I'm merely making observations from what it looks like where I'm sitting.

kittystrawberry

10th October 2005, 07:05 PM

Entertaining_Angels

10th October 2005, 09:00 PM

No, to be a true Christian is to believe in Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life.

I wonder if speaking in tongue, keep the conversation strictly between God and the specific spirit...so that Satan does not know what is being said at the moment.

Something important to note though, God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. On the other hand, satan is not and cannot be everywhere at once nor can he read your mind. I know I used to fear that I had to be careful what I prayed out loud for fear the 'enemy' would twist it but, y'know, God changed that and has freed me from those fears.

White Horse

11th October 2005, 05:34 AM

In rereading my post this morning, I can see where it might be taken wrong. I was not feeling well at all last night, completely exhausted and stressed from work and errand running. I want to make darn sure everyone understands that I'm not suggesting Pentecostal or Charasmatic practices in general are wrong or ungodly. Not at all. However, I do want to reiterate that the attitude coming from some folks who claim to partake in that activity, is not an attitude that would be produced by the Holy Spirit, which would lead me to believe that it's quite likely that the Charasmatic practices IN THOSE INCIDENTS may be coming from someone other than the Holy Spirit. At the very least, they're being practiced by people who are way too immature spiritually to be practicing them. Then that takes me back to the question, "Why would God give you a spiritual gift you're not ready for?" But in no way to I think that pew jumping in general is demonic or anything like that. I know too many folks who bear sweet, sweet, sweet fruit who practice those things. Those I don't worry about. The ones who somehow think they're better than someone else, or more gifted than someone else, or somehow more favored in our Lord's eyes...friends...that attitude does NOT come from the one true God. I can guarantee you that. So I'd examine the practices that lead you to that line of thinking to make darn sure they're coming from God. Because I can promise you something else...and, believe me, I know this first hand and have been trapped into Satan's snares myself...I promise you that everything good God offers us, Satan will offer a counterfeit version. I'd just make sure you're not walking around with some counterfeit "gifts" in your pockets.

That's all. Carry on.

In His love,

WH

BIGMike99

11th October 2005, 06:05 AM

The answer is no, because speaking in tounges comes in the Lord's timing. you cant just make them speak in tounges, they have to be under the holy spirit's annointing.

Raistlinorr

11th October 2005, 07:58 AM

First off all these answers are what my personal take you might recieve some different answers to this.

OK...reading this thread I pick up three things...speaking in tongues is

Important
Instructed
Useful
I would like someone to show me where any of that is Biblical.

What's important about it? The only thing I can find "important" about any tongues is when the disciples were speaking in a foreign language that they hadn't been schooled in. That was important to spread the gospel to those who might not otherwise hear it, but I know that's not the "tongues" y'all are refering to. Show me where speaking in "unknown" tongues is important.
To me it's another way to comunicate with the Holy Spirit on a personal level.

I want to know where the Bible "instructs" me to speak in tongues...known or unknown.
To my knowledge no where does it say you have to or ask that you do it mentions that some do though.

I want to know what's "useful" about what we now consider "tongues", when no one in the congregation, including the speaker, as any inkling as to what in the world you're going on about.
This is not wholey true I've been there when the speaker or others have translated what that got out of the message. Perhaps it was some thing they needed to hear or that some one who was not listening as well as they should have needed to hear. As mentioned above it's a personal level of communication to the Holy Spirit IMO.

I'd also like to know what purpose it serves. Frankly, I've seen it do absolutely nothing but cause haughtiness and division...and that certainly does not sound like anything produced by the Holy Spirit I know.
I've never seen it cause either of what you say guess I'm lucky there. I've seen others desire to get that gift because of others doing it. As mentioned above also I think the Holy Spirit is different for every one just like personalities (maybe it tends to be like your personality as the Lord did make us in his image yet none of us are the same) so once again I believe it's a personal level of communication.

Also note that this is stricktly my opinion on this issue. I know I've felt hugh great joy because of the Holy Spirit taking over me in times when I needed it I've also felt sorrow for those that need his help I've gotten great messages from hearing tongues and speaking them. I fully believe that it's a personal thing to each person and is completely different for each also. Just as some are ment to preach in front of crowds and some are better at being a speaking with but a few. We each have a different role in God complete plan and we each do and see things differently for the most part. Thats what makes his plan so great and loving because we need every one to get the job done (sort of like an ant colony).
I hope this helps to answer your questions some what.
God Bless
Raist

onelamb

11th October 2005, 10:58 AM

As a Pentecostal Christian-Assembly of God-I just want you all to know that our doctrine does not say-nor does the Bible teach that one must "speak in tongues in order to be saved"--we are saved by trusting in the shed Blood of Jesus Christ. The baptism in the Holy Spirit-which is initially manifested by the ability to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enables-happens to CHRISTIANS only.

Kelly

11th October 2005, 11:01 AM

The baptism in the Holy Spirit-which is initially manifested by the ability to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enables-happens to CHRISTIANS only.

Thanks for sharing, onelamb. So do you mean that all Christians have the gift?

onelamb

11th October 2005, 11:06 AM

Thanks for sharing, onelamb. So do you mean that all Christians have the gift?

No, I do not mean that-however we all could-according to Peter-"for this promise is to you, your children, and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:39
The baptism in the Spirit is available to all of us-but not all accept. It is a gift-just like salvation that is freely offered. This baptism brings with it the ability to pray and praise in other tongues. What is referred to in the Bible as "the gift" of tongues is something different-and not all those who are filled with the Spirit and pray in tongues privately will be used in the public manifestation of "tongues".

Sirius

11th October 2005, 11:18 AM

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

That says it all right there, Because one person doesnt speak tonges doesnt mean that they are not part of the body, thats just not what they are made to do.

White Horse

11th October 2005, 11:59 AM

No, I do not mean that-however we all could-according to Peter-"for this promise is to you, your children, and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:39
The baptism in the Spirit is available to all of us-but not all accept. It is a gift-just like salvation that is freely offered. This baptism brings with it the ability to pray and praise in other tongues. What is referred to in the Bible as "the gift" of tongues is something different-and not all those who are filled with the Spirit and pray in tongues privately will be used in the public manifestation of "tongues".

I was baptised with the Spirit the day He saved me. He flat came over me, went through me, cleansed me, healed me and comforted me. I'd assume we can agree that pretty much covers baptism.

kingisjesus

11th October 2005, 12:51 PM

Have you not read what the apostle Paul said concerning the gifts of The Spirit?
Not all the saved speak with toungs, and not all the saved have healing ect.

1 Corinthians 12:4-31
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28629a)] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28629b)] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28632c)] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28649d)]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28650e)] the greater gifts.

Entertaining_Angels

11th October 2005, 01:48 PM

The baptism in the Holy Spirit-which is initially manifested by the ability to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enables-happens to CHRISTIANS only.

Be careful here or one may be deceived. Other religions have been known to speak in tongues including some voodoo-based religions and I've been told that some of the head-honchos in the mormon church have spoken in tongues. I've also read accounts by people who say they tried and spoke in tongues at a service but they were not Christians. Oh, and, personally, I've known folks to give Christianity a try and at some point speak in tongues during the service but fall away soon after. They'd be the first to tell you they never really believed.

I am in no way saying that the gift of tongues is not a real gift because I know it is a gift but ALWAYS test to make sure this is from God. The devil does counterfeit 'gifts'. The Bible is very clear about the gift of tongues and Paul taught how it was to be used.

kingisjesus

11th October 2005, 01:53 PM

A gift from God is given according to his will and not to everybody. (see scriptures above)

onelamb

11th October 2005, 06:46 PM

Be careful here or one may be deceived. Other religions have been known to speak in tongues including some voodoo-based religions and I've been told that some of the head-honchos in the mormon church have spoken in tongues. I've also read accounts by people who say they tried and spoke in tongues at a service but they were not Christians. Oh, and, personally, I've known folks to give Christianity a try and at some point speak in tongues during the service but fall away soon after. They'd be the first to tell you they never really believed.

I am in no way saying that the gift of tongues is not a real gift because I know it is a gift but ALWAYS test to make sure this is from God. The devil does counterfeit 'gifts'. The Bible is very clear about the gift of tongues and Paul taught how it was to be used.

At no time does satan give you anything that will bring you closer to God. Notice the Bible says-"as the Spirit enabled them to speak"-- If the Spirit of God is enablling you to speak then you don't need to worry about receiving a stone instead of an egg. "If you fathers know how to give good gifts to your children-how much more then will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask". Speaking in tongues as the Spirit enables is merely the initial physical sign that the Holy Spirit has baptised us. Look carefully at Pauls words-he was explaining the difference between the gift of tongues=which I already said, not all Spirit filled believers are used in-and speaking in tongues as prayer which according to scripture is for ALL who will receive this baptism. No time-not even once are Christians told to "be careful that they might be speaking in a counterfit tongue". In fact, Jesus said that His followers would speak in tongues. And Paul said, "I want you all to speak in tongues" He also said, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you." Too many people spend so much time looking for the devil that they miss God.

Entertaining_Angels

11th October 2005, 06:58 PM

At no time does satan give you anything that will bring you closer to God. Notice the Bible says-"as the Spirit enabled them to speak"-- If the Spirit of God is enablling you to speak then you don't need to worry about receiving a stone instead of an egg. "If you fathers know how to give good gifts to your children-how much more then will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask". Speaking in tongues as the Spirit enables is merely the initial physical sign that the Holy Spirit has baptised us. Look carefully at Pauls words-he was explaining the difference between the gift of tongues=which I already said, not all Spirit filled believers are used in-and speaking in tongues as prayer which according to scripture is for ALL who will receive this baptism. No time-not even once are Christians told to "be careful that they might be speaking in a counterfit tongue". In fact, Jesus said that His followers would speak in tongues. And Paul said, "I want you all to speak in tongues" He also said, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you." Too many people spend so much time looking for the devil that they miss God.

I once saw something happen that was clearly not from God by somebody who had just spoken in tongues and then was engaged in 'holy laughter'. At the time I did not understand it but since God has shown me that I need to be truly cautious. Like I said, you won't hear me argue that the gift of tongues is not a gift for today but it is very misused in my opinion and I just caution people to test this gift as they would any other gift.

God bless.

LynnMcG

11th October 2005, 07:02 PM

Nope, it's a gift of the spirit and we each do not receive EVERY gift.

Reazzurro90

11th October 2005, 07:27 PM

Nope, it's a gift of the spirit and we each do not receive EVERY gift.

Well, the tongues for public exhortation is not available to everyone, but tongues as in the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is. But either way, speaking in tongues is not necessary for salvation, or else we all would have spoken in tongues once we had accepted the Lord Jesus Christ. There is even a verse in Acts where Apollos meets Christians who did not know who the Holy Spirit was, and yet were followers of Christ.

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." (Acts 19:1-2, NIV)

So, it's pretty evident that it's not necessary. And no real pentecostal would say that it is essential (Oneness are not pentecostal Christians, so they don't count).

Raistlinorr

12th October 2005, 07:50 AM

I once saw something happen that was clearly not from God by somebody who had just spoken in tongues and then was engaged in 'holy laughter'. At the time I did not understand it but since God has shown me that I need to be truly cautious. Like I said, you won't hear me argue that the gift of tongues is not a gift for today but it is very misused in my opinion and I just caution people to test this gift as they would any other gift.

God bless.

Are you saying that Holy Laughter is not from God? Or do you think at that time it was not appropriate?

I've been filled with a Holy Joy that caused me to laugh for hours it was at a time when I needed it though the Lord gives to fill our needs. I needed that joy at the time it was a sweet release from other things around me. This all happened during a service right after we sang praises to our Lord the preacher knew what was going on in my life at the time and so did my friends they just praised God and he preached his service while I felt such an over whelming joy that I can't come up with words to describe it.

Maybe I missunderstood what you meant.

God Bless
Raist

Entertaining_Angels

12th October 2005, 11:21 AM

Are you saying that Holy Laughter is not from God? Or do you think at that time it was not appropriate?

I've been filled with a Holy Joy that caused me to laugh for hours it was at a time when I needed it though the Lord gives to fill our needs. I needed that joy at the time it was a sweet release from other things around me. This all happened during a service right after we sang praises to our Lord the preacher knew what was going on in my life at the time and so did my friends they just praised God and he preached his service while I felt such an over whelming joy that I can't come up with words to describe it.

Maybe I missunderstood what you meant.

God Bless
Raist

I do have some feelings on holy laughter but only because the way I've seen it used was not from God but I don't think this post is about 'holy' laughter.

But, my post was just saying that I was once in a situation where somebody spoke in tongues and then holy laughter and something from that was in no way from God (because it is clearly spoken against in Scriptures) took place so my example was an instance I witnessed somebody who spoke in tongues who then did something evil.

discernomatic

14th October 2005, 01:17 PM

Kelly

14th October 2005, 01:24 PM

I can take some passages out the Bible about crying or rending garments, are their whole church services focused on bawling our eyes out or tearing up our clothes?

SteelDisciple

14th October 2005, 02:20 PM

I don't believe in Holy Laughter. I think it's someone hyping themselves up by listening to the message. They don't realize they are hyping themselves.

Anyway...A true christian is someone who accepts Christ into his life. THAT'S IT.

Reazzurro90

15th October 2005, 06:48 AM

Why yes or why no? Just what I wanted to hear.

Silly me, I did not see I replied to this thread....

Delete please

Reazzurro90

15th October 2005, 07:01 AM

Svt4Him

15th October 2005, 11:34 AM

A gift from God is given according to his will and not to everybody. (see scriptures above)

Sorry, just go to this page, so if it's answered, forgive me. But I'm thinking you're saying not all are given this gift. Are all given the gift of faith? And if not, does that mean only some have faith other Christians don't? And if Christians don't have faith, and we are saved by grace through faith, does that mean some aren't saved?

Unless faith for you as a Christian and the gift of faith which is for a group of people are different types of faith. Which would also be like tongues for personal edification and tongues for a group.

Petunia

15th October 2005, 11:42 AM

I don't believe you have to speak in tongues in order to be a truc Christian. Post # 2 points out a good example with the thief on the cross.

Petunia

15th October 2005, 11:49 AM

Regarding 'holy laughter'.. I don't know much about it and have only seen one church do this. I don't remember reading any scripture to support it either way. So.. I don't believe it's anything spiritual.. demonic or Godly. I personally think it's fleshly.

SpokenFor2005

15th October 2005, 11:54 AM

onelamb

16th October 2005, 10:10 AM

"Have you received the Holy Spirit SINCE you believed?"
The Apostle Paul

"they received the Holy Spirit just as we have, for we heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God"
Peter

Shannonkish

16th October 2005, 01:38 PM

One,

I am not seeing this prove one position or the other.

Jimmy West

16th October 2005, 05:54 PM

Why yes or why no? Just what I wanted to hear.

"Tongues" is a spiritual gift. It has nothing to do with salvation. It's manifestation does indicate an active Holy Spirit and also indicates a fairly high level of spiritual growth in the person speaking it.

White Horse

16th October 2005, 06:04 PM

I can take some passages out the Bible about crying or rending garments, are their whole church services focused on bawling our eyes out or tearing up our clothes?

I usually either get laughing or crying when someone sees me tear my clothes off. :D

SharonL

16th October 2005, 08:03 PM

When you accept Jesus into your heart and ask Him to be Lord of your life you receive the Holy Spirit, however there is an infilling of the Holy Spirit and one of the gifts is speaking in tongues, but it is a gift and you do not have to speak in tongues.

discernomatic

17th October 2005, 05:33 AM

"Tongues" is a spiritual gift. It has nothing to do with salvation. It's manifestation does indicate an active Holy Spirit and also indicates a fairly high level of spiritual growth in the person speaking it.
I agree that tongues has nothing to do with salvation. The following statement does not make much sense to me, though. How can it be an indication of spiritual growth when some that were newly born-again were speaking in tongues? They had not grown yet. Also, from personal experience, I know some mature Christians who have never spoken in tongues and probably never will. Their wisdom and knowledge, however, benefits myself and others.

soblessed53

17th October 2005, 11:44 AM

I know better than that! I know true Christians who do not speak in tongues,including myself,and I know some who speak in tongues,that I definitley do not feel are where they should be with God.

onelamb

18th October 2005, 07:29 PM

I know better than that! I know true Christians who do not speak in tongues,including myself,and I know some who speak in tongues,that I definitley do not feel are where they should be with God.

Actually, none of us are "where we should be with God"-and many who have received the baptism in the Spirit are baby Christians-just like in the Bible. It was a normal, natural part of their walk with God. The ONLY criteria for one to receive this baptism is to be a Christian-whether for a minute or for years. Tongues are just a natural part of this baptism. In fact, "tongues" were the defining sign that this had been received.(Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6) Jesus is the One who baptises people in the Spirit and He hasn't changed. He is the same forever. The tongue we receive when we are Spirit filled for the first time is generally used for prayer--talking to God (1 Corinthians 14:2), for edification (1 Corinthians 14:4), and for praising Him (1 Corinthians 14:16). The gift of tongues is the manifestation of this tongue in a church service and must be interpreted so that the church can receive edification--1 Corinthians 14:5.

discernomatic

19th October 2005, 06:24 AM

I think the emphasis should be on the word "gift". Some get it and some don't.

rodimus321

19th October 2005, 10:07 AM

What great responses! Unfortunately I have seen church doctrines that say "they look at the outward appearance of gifts as evidence of salvation".

onelamb

19th October 2005, 04:27 PM

I think the emphasis should be on the word "gift". Some get it and some don't.

Some will receive it and some won't. You're right it is a gift-given to all who will accept. "How much more then will your Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask"-Jesus Christ. But the Lord does not hold it back from some as your words seem to indicate-it is meant for ALL of us. "For this promise is to you, your children and to all who are afar off, EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL"--I think that includes everyone who will accept-just like salvation-it's "whosoever will".

discernomatic

20th October 2005, 08:17 AM

Some will receive it and some won't. You're right it is a gift-given to all who will accept. "How much more then will your Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask"-Jesus Christ. But the Lord does not hold it back from some as your words seem to indicate-it is meant for ALL of us. "For this promise is to you, your children and to all who are afar off, EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL"--I think that includes everyone who will accept-just like salvation-it's "whosoever will".
That is not what I meant. I meant that speaking in tongues is not a gift that is given to everyone. The gifts are distributed unevenly (not unfairly).

"Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." 1 Corinthians 12:7-11.

Paul goes on to compare the different gifts to different parts of the body, each has its function and place. He emphasizes than not everyone receives every gift.

"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts." 1 Corinthians 12:29-31.

It is likely that every Christian alive at that time wanted all of those gifts, but according to Paul's words they did not get them all. Nor is there any indication in Scripture that specified that they always got what they wanted. Desiring something does not necessarily mean that you will get it. You will get it only if God sees fit to give it to you. For example: for some a particular gift might tempt them to sin and so be bad for them. God gives them perhaps not what they wished for, but something else that is better suited to them. God is a good parent.

So no gift, this includes the gift of tongues, can be proof of the reception of the Holy Spirit, since there will be Christians that do not have them.

As to the matter of predistination vs. free choice, I do not agree with your view of that issue.

JesusZone

20th October 2005, 08:47 AM

When a person becomes a christian, the Holy Spirit live inside them. And the Holy Spirit equipt with spiritual gifts. Not every person have the same gifts. So speaking in tongue is one of spiritual gift that God provided.

stone

20th October 2005, 02:17 PM

no, because i never have spoken in tongue's:thumbsup:

at least not that i'm aware

Quantos

20th October 2005, 03:22 PM

onelamb

20th October 2005, 06:21 PM

Speaking in tongues is one of the Spiritual gifts-but it is also the evidence that one has been baptised in the Spirit-so everyone can receive the baptism and speak in tongues as the Spirit enables them-but not everyone will be used in the gift of tongues-which according to Paul is for the church gathered and must be interpreted. When the Bible speaks of Spiritual gifts-it talks of supernatural gifts given by God-for the moment-they do not abide with the believer. However, those who are spirit filled can pray in tongues when the want to. Praying in tongues is NOT one of the 9 Spiritual gifts. This is why Paul said, "I thank my God I speak in tongues more than ALL of you--YET in church........" He did most of his tongue speaking outside of church-just like we all should. He used it for prayer....
"I will pray with my spirit and I will also pray with my mind, I will sing with my spirit and I will also sing with my understanding" No one who has not been baptised in the Spirit and spoken in other tongues will be used in the gift of tongues in the church. Many of you are mixing up the two specific kinds of tongues. Paul made it very very plain that they were two different things for two different purposes. ALL who are baptised in the Spirit can speak in tongues-but not all of them will be used in the gift of tongues.

discernomatic

21st October 2005, 04:12 AM

God has given me a very logical mind, that works wonders for working with computers, typing, developing Power Point presentations for the Pastor, working in the AV Department, ect...

I would say that God has given me this Gift, but it's not talked about in the bible, dose that mean that it's not a gift given by God, and if not of / by God then who gave me this wonderful Gift ?

I agree with you. I have the ability to learn languages relatively quickly and easily. Reading and writing have always been so easy for me. God gives different gifts, and not all are listed in Scripture.

Yet I must disagree with onelamb, that the gift of tongues, that is babbling in an unknown language whether for edification of the church or for personal prayer, is given to all. I stupidly tried babbling because others prompted me to, and felt and was the fool. The Holy Spirit was not running my tongue, nor my brain nor anything else. I know his presence, any presence I sense I compare to the one that entered me when I was born-again. I have rarely sensed his presence after that, most of the time they were other spirits that everyone nevertheless and unquestioningly said was the Holy Spirit. The other spirits were heavy over congregations and revivals where many spoke in tongues.

Sorry, because of this I will remain a skeptic until I see one person that speaks in tongues in the presence of the Holy Spirit - or when the Holy Spirit himself reveals to me that he is the one causing it. If the gift were so prevalent then why have I only seen counterfeits?

onelamb

21st October 2005, 10:06 AM

discernomatic-perhaps you should get out your Bible-find an example from the book of Acts onward-where one was baptised in the Spirit and did not speak in tongues-you won't find it=and when we are told about those receiving this baptism it doesn't ever ever say some spoke in tongues-it says ALL.
Acts 2:4-and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues as the Spirit enabled them to speak. All of them-all at once.

You cannot have it both ways-you want to say you believe the Bible, then believe it--all of it. Also-I made it plain that I don't believe all those who speak in tongues are used in the "gift of tongues" and so did Paul.
Just because every Christian has not accepted the baptism in the Spirit doesn't mean that it is not available to them-just like salvation-it is for "whosoever will"-but that doesn't mean that all will accept. So just because you don't speak in tongues doesn't mean that it isn't available for all. You have added to the Word of God-for the Bible only speaks of 9 Spiritual gifts. You say you have only felt the presence of the Lord one time-and now rarely??? Wow-what a shame. It seems easier for you to feel the devil than to feel the Lord??? My goodness, I would not like that one bit-perhaps you should read the parable the Lord told about the house that was swept clean-and ask Jesus to really fill you with the Holy Spirit=then there wouldn't be room for the evil one.

lizzie0711

22nd October 2005, 02:50 AM

Speaking in tongues dont make you a true christian. Yes I do believe in speaking tongues beause it's in the Bible but if u don't speak in tongues don't mean that you not save (or true christian!)

PeterAV

22nd October 2005, 02:58 AM

Salvation is not dependent upon speaking in tongues.
There are ,however the odd group out there that advocate something inthat ballpark,and that is close to heresy.
Just because people Spake in tongues at the time of salvation does not mean that it is a pre-requisite for salvation.

Tongues was always subsequent to salvation=right after but it is not a dogmatic doctrine in scripture.
In fact Paul asks the question,do all speak in tongues?The obvious answer is NO.
The only requisite for salvation is faith in the shed blood of Christ and the Gospel.
The Gospel is found labelled out for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
All must be believed according to the scriptures.The scriptures show;
Christ died for our sins.
Christ was buried.
Christ rose again the third day.
He was seen.
Remember that the resurrection of jesus Christ is diferent than any other resurrection in the world,for it is a flesh and bones body.
This is very crucial.

So don't worry about tongues being a weight over your shoulder.
Choose the best gifts.And remember to love=Willing the most amount of good to God and the universe.

PeterAV

onelamb

22nd October 2005, 12:50 PM

You took Pauls words out of context PeterAV=when asked if 'all spoke in tongues" he was speaking of spiritual gifts in the church-this is why he went on to say-"I thank my God I speak in tongues more than all of you....YET in the church"....and "I want you all to speak in tongues"

Being saved is a prerequisite for being baptised in the Spirit-you can be saved and not speak in tongues, just like you can be saved and not baptised in water. It, however, should be a natural step in the lives of Christians. Being baptised in the Spirit was so important that Jesus used His last message to His disciples to make sure they knew to expect this.

discernomatic

24th October 2005, 09:12 AM

Hi onelamb,

I find that you rely much too heavily on the post gospels NT, that is very prevalent these days. I am not unfulfilled, simply because I do not experience what you might. I rejoice with David together and lament with him, in the Psalms. The OT is much richer than many suspect. If you look where the NT and the OT run parallel it will open your eyes to many things.

It is not easier for me to "feel" the devil as it is to "feel" the Lord. It is just that the Lord is not "moving" outside of his people as often as some say he is. I am certain that there are more false revivals than real ones, if any are real at all. I do not rely on spiritual experiences for fulfillment. I rely on prayer and the knowledge of God that the Holy Spirit gives me from within, it comes the most when I am reading Scripture, but sometimes on its own. I used to be Pentecostal, but have given all of that up now for something that is much better in my opinion, and much more Scriptural.

discernomatic

onelamb

24th October 2005, 10:47 AM

So-now, we cannot rely on "post gospel NT"? Wow-I think I'll stick with the Word of God--ALL of it.

discernomatic

24th October 2005, 12:37 PM

So-now, we cannot rely on "post gospel NT"? Wow-I think I'll stick with the Word of God--ALL of it.

I didn't say that you could not rely on it at all, just that Paul was not perfect, and that a Pentecostal interpretation of the letters is not the only one that brings fulfillment.

IspeakNtongues

24th October 2005, 05:05 PM

I speak in tongues and i dont believe it is "recquired" although it talks about it in the bible often and it is an amazing gift!

RichardT

24th October 2005, 05:50 PM

I still can't speak in tongues....

onelamb

25th October 2005, 08:53 AM

I didn't say that you could not rely on it at all, just that Paul was not perfect, and that a Pentecostal interpretation of the letters is not the only one that brings fulfillment.

The Pentecostal interpretation of the letters is the only one that is correct. You say on the one hand that I can rely on the Word-but on the other hand you say that Paul was not perfect-trying to imply that we cannot depend on those parts of the Bible that he wrote? Sorry, but I'm not even going to go there-"All Scripture is given by God" If something else brings YOU fulfillment-then so be it-but you have not given anything but your own opinion-I believe the Bible-I have learned to leave my "opinion" by the wayside and stick with God's Word.

onelamb

25th October 2005, 08:58 AM

I still can't speak in tongues....

Richard, you need to be baptised in the Holy Spirit. Tongues are not the be all, end all of our Spiritual walk-just a part of it-one that comes naturally when we are filled with His Spirit.
It's not so much God giving the Spirit to us as it is us receiving what has already been given. My point is that a person doesn't have to wait for years, or months, or days to receive the Holy Spirit. You can by faith receive the Holy Spirit right now. You don't have to wait.

Suppose at church, you noticed somebody hanging around the altar for days and days. Then finally you asked them, "what's going on", what if they then told you they were waiting for Jesus to save them. That would be silly, at best. God has already given salvation to the world in the person of His Son, now it's just a matter of receiving by faith what God has already given. The infilling works the same way. The question is not, has God given us the infilling, instead it's, have we received.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Peter and John didn't pray that God would give these new believers the Holy Spirit, the Spirit was already given. What was left was for them to receive what had already been given. A person does not need to wait to be saved, they can get saved right now. Salvation has already been given. By the same token, a person does not need to wait to receive the infilling, the Spirit has already been given.

Actually, all born-again believers already have the Spirit just not the Baptism, there is a difference.

discernomatic

26th October 2005, 08:46 AM

The Pentecostal interpretation of the letters is the only one that is correct. You say on the one hand that I can rely on the Word-but on the other hand you say that Paul was not perfect-trying to imply that we cannot depend on those parts of the Bible that he wrote? Sorry, but I'm not even going to go there-"All Scripture is given by God" If something else brings YOU fulfillment-then so be it-but you have not given anything but your own opinion-I believe the Bible-I have learned to leave my "opinion" by the wayside and stick with God's Word.
I phrase things as my opinion because this is a way to avoid offending others and is the accepted sort of phrase in debate. Stating beliefs as facts when you cannot prove them is considered to be poor argumentation. Religious beliefs, including Christian ones belong more to the realm of philosophy than to science. Science names controversial ideas theories, not facts.

As to your post above, that all depends on your definition of Scripture/God's Word. The verse you quote, if taken in context, was referring to the OT, as the letters were not considered a part of Scripture at that time. I believe that Paul was led by the Spirit, but not 100% of the time. No one except Jesus Christ was under the influence of the Spirit 100% of the time. Peter made a wrong decision about including circumcision as a rite to enter Christianity which Paul talked him out of. God is infallible, and Jesus affirmed the infallibility of the OT, but that does not automatically mean that the apostles were infallible, Jesus never said that they were or even would be.

Another problem that arises, is then which version of Scripture one should believe. Some say that only the King James is relevant, others insist on a version based on the Latin Vulgate, still others insist on newer versions, including The Message. And that only covers the English language. Bibles, Testaments and portions of the Bible have been translated into over 2000 languages and dialects. Which of those are valid or invalid? If the Pentecostal interpretation is the only way to interpret the letters correctly, then a Pentecostal bible would be preferable. Which bible version is the most Pentecostal? Should you now tell everyone else that anything that is not Pentecostal is wrong? Doesn't that ring a bell?

onelamb

26th October 2005, 08:53 AM

discernomatic

26th October 2005, 09:08 AM

Discernomatic-since you do not accept the authority of all the Bible-we cannot continue this discussion. I believe that I can show what I believe to be true and correct-by going only by the Word of God. If you, on the other hand, do not accept that Word to be Truth, then I will not convince you of what I believe to be correct-ie, you cannot accept the source of my belief. Perhaps if you would like to-we can continue the discussion about tongues, but I must hold you to the idea of using scripture alone.
Even if I did accept every word of the letters (there are actually very few that I do not accept), I do not think that your argumentation has been logical up to this point and that some verses have been used out of context. Other forum members have put forth arguments. You did not counter them but seemed to avoid them (perhaps you forgot to counter them). Will you be willing to address every issue?

onelamb

26th October 2005, 11:56 AM

Yes, I am willing to address every issue concerning the baptism in the Holy Spirit and tongues. I did not answer each and every point in this discussion because I am not the only one involved. This is a discussion board after all. and there are others who wish to participate. If you have a specific issue that someone has brought up that you wish to discuss my position on-please state it, along with your postion, and I will give you mine.

I haven't purposly avoided any part of this thread-however, I believe what I have stated to be true and logical using the Word of God as my guide. All this talking around the issue that you've been doing isn't doing anyone any good. Exactly what is it I've said that you disagree with (or believe I do-since according to you I haven't answered them all) ? You actually, have avoided the subject at hand.

discernomatic

26th October 2005, 12:47 PM

Hi onelamb, I'll get back to you on that. It may take a bit to analyze the correspondence.

Telrunya

26th October 2005, 03:54 PM

Why yes or why no? Just what I wanted to hear.

No I do not believe that speaking in tongues is a requirement or and indication of a true Christian nor do I believe it to be the only indication of being Spirit filled. I base this on 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 which specifically state that not all spiritual gifts are given to everyone but are distributed as seen fit by the Holy Spirit. God doesn't need everyone in the body to be a mouth. I know from personal experiance what it means to be Spirit filled to the point where you can do nothing but lay on the floor and worship God, but I have never spoken in tongues. Anyone who says that those who prophecy but do not speak in tongues are not Spirit filled is sadly mistaken as Paul points out in 1 Corinthians 14.

Nevaeh07

26th October 2005, 04:32 PM

discernomatic

27th October 2005, 04:45 AM

Hi Onelamb,

In post 23 you referred to your doctrinal standpoint:

“The baptism in the Holy Spirit-which is initially manifested by the ability to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enables-happens to CHRISTIANS only.”

Yet in post 72 you wrote: The Pentecostal interpretation of the letters is the only one that is correct.

A held doctrine may not necessarily be scriptural. That must be proven first.

In post 29 Oregal listed examples of people speaking in tongues that were not filled with the Holy Spirit and stated: “I am in no way saying that the gift of tongues is not a real gift because I know it is a gift but ALWAYS test to make sure this is from God. The devil does counterfeit 'gifts'.”

In order for your statements in posts 23 and 72 to be validated, Oregal’s point in post 29 would have to be successfully refuted. I have seen and heard people speaking in tongues as well, whose salvation was very doubtful according to Galatians 5:22-24. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.” I think that the word “passions” is very important in that passage. It may be a key to what is happening in most if not all current revivals.

From all of the reports and my own experience, it could be said that all is not well in Glossolallialand. There are many reports of people not only speaking in tongues but manifesting “holy laughter” as described somewhere in this thread, and barking, roaring and so-called “birthing” among other things as the Toronto Blessing and similar manifestations.

Here are some links about the Toronto Blessing:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/4948/vine3is5.html (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/4948/vine3is5.html)

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/sva-tb01.html (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/sva-tb01.html)

Since I have experienced the laughter myself and found it to be not from God, then I have good reason to believe that there are spiritual manifestations, including speaking in tongues that are not from God. I think that the word “passions” is very important in Gal. 5:24. The manifestations cater to the passions or the flesh. Looking back on the holy laughter experience I had, it definitely was spiritual (spiritual does not equal Godly, necessarily) but the flesh was heavily involved, it FELT very good. Not that feeling things is necessarily bad, but our feelings can be used against us very easily. The flesh is easy to corrupt.

Jeremiah 17:5 “This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.” John 3:5,6 “Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” John 6:63 “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.” Philippians 3:3,4 “For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reasons for such confidence.”

The one thing that I have found to be common among spiritual but un-Godly experiences is that the flesh is highly involved, feelings are part of the flesh. They can be misused against us. Going back to the time I was born-again, it was not a fleshly experience. I “felt” life stream into me, but emotions were absent perhaps except for the feeling of surprise and a sense of awe. These could not have been psychological effects either, because I did not expect anything, nor was it suggested to me that I should expect anything to “happen”. I was not in a state of ecstatic worship, I had one hour of a boring sermon behind me. I was only presented with the gospel and asked whether I believed, and having faith at that moment I answered simply with, “Yes.”

Expectation is a tool used more and more today to get worshippers to expect something. When you expect something your mind suggests that the emotions that fill you in worship are the desired effect, worshipping for long periods of time can cause “experiences” that seem real to the one experiencing them, but are only psychologically induced. From experience and observation at revivals and the like, I have seen others in a frenzy of fleshly expectation that was fulfilled either at the emotional level or even perhaps a spiritual one – causing speaking in tongues and falling over “in the spirit”, a thing often seen at Benny Hinn crusades among others. This neither proves or disproves whether God is causing the tongues, but falling over in the spirit is not recorded in Scripture as a gift or manifestation of the Holy Spirit. But the simultaneous nature of these events would at least cast doubt as to whether the speaking in tongues in those cases came from God.

Even from the beginning of the Pentecostal movement, it was rarely questioned whether what they received was from God or not. I have read Frank Bartleman’s Azusa Street (1982 pub. Whitaker House). He assumes much through doctrine without questioning whether that doctrine is Scriptural, but I give him credit for these comments: “The enemy did much counterfeiting.” p. 42. “Be not alarmed that Satan sows tares among the wheat of Christ. It has ever been so,….and ever will be, until the devil is chained for a thousand years. Till then he will always ape and endeavor to counteract the work of the Spirit of Christ.” p. 44. He quotes Wesley, “Oh Lord, send us the old revival, without the defects; but if this cannot be, send it with all its defects. We must have the revival!”” He goes on to quote Adam Clark and Dr. Seiss and talks about Luther, then comparing his zeal to theirs. He never listed what could have been counterfeited by Satan, but only insisted on absolute humility and openness to the Spirit as the solution, dying even to his intellect, emptying himself of thought to be open to the Spirit. Paul nor Jesus never told us to do that, only to die to our flesh. But all of the time Bartleman was “open” he never questioned which spirit was entering him, but always insisted that it was the Holy Spirit. I am sure that he meant well for everyone concerned, but his extreme emotionalism and self-admitted effort to ignore his intellect when “open” to the Spirit cause me to doubt his capacity to judge the spiritual situation correctly. You might want to read “The Early Years of the Tongues Movement by G. Lang” who was present in the early years of the revival at: http://www.intotruth.org/tb/lang.html (http://www.intotruth.org/tb/lang.html) .

That was just one element of the discussion that I questioned. There are many more points, but I don’t know if you have the time to discuss them. My time is somewhat limited, I have a website to attend to among other things. We might want to limit the discussion to this aspect for the sake of brevity.

Another aspect concerns your statement about the reception of the gift of tongues being for everyone that wants to receive it- as you say that salvation is offered. That is a highly debatable statement as well. It must be proven first that salvation is for all and then that the gift of tongues is offered likewise. It may interest others to know that the statement may not be correct as it stands even though it was stated in a matter-of-fact way.

In Post 63 you stated: “Just because every Christian has not accepted the baptism in the Spirit doesn't mean that it is not available to them-just like salvation-it is for "whosoever will"“

Jesus stated in John 6:64,65 that, “Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."” One could argue whether it was foreknowledge or predestination that led him to this statement. But there is another like it: Matthew 16:15-17. “"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.”

The converse of the argument would be, if salvation is based on revelation from God to man, not based on the will of man but the will of God, then it may also be that way with the gift of tongues. You get what God gives you, whether you asked for it or not. Simply asking him will not get you what you want unless he originally intended it. “God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?” Numbers 23:19. God’s will is infinitely stronger than man’s. I did not ask to be saved, nor was I seeking God the moment that I heard the gospel. He found me, not I him. I believe that this is also the case with the gifts. Everyone is born with various abilities that others do not have whether Christian or not, and Christians are given additional gifts that were picked out for us with ourselves and others in mind.

There are still many aspects left unaddressed here. It is probably impossible to get to them all in a reasonable amount of time.

discernomatic

Telrunya

27th October 2005, 09:35 AM

No. Speaking in tongues is just a gift from God, not a nessesity. God would like to give you this ability, but not until He thinks your ready for it. Don't worry if you can't already you probally will be able to eventually.

From your statement one would be lead to believe that anyone who speaks in tongues is more Holy or atleast more mature in Christ than those who dont. I hope this is not what you are implying because it isn't scriptural at all. The gift of speaking in tongues is not given to everyone. 1 Corinthians makes that clear. So not everyone "will be able to do it eventually".

onelamb

27th October 2005, 10:22 AM

“The baptism in the Holy Spirit-which is initially manifested by the ability to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enables-happens to CHRISTIANS only.”

Nowhere in the NT are we told that the baptism in the Holy Spirit happens to anyone BUT Christians-exactly what is your beef here? Do you have scriptural examples for your argument?

Yet in post 72 you wrote: The Pentecostal interpretation of the letters is the only one that is correct.

Yes, I believe this is true-now if you want to show something different-you cannot just say so-you must bring scriptural proof.

A held doctrine may not necessarily be scriptural. That must be proven first.
I believe it is scriptural and has been proven.

In post 29 Oregal listed examples of people speaking in tongues that were not filled with the Holy Spirit and stated: “I am in no way saying that the gift of tongues is not a real gift because I know it is a gift but ALWAYS test to make sure this is from God. The devil does counterfeit 'gifts'

Again, the baptism in the Spirit happens only to Christians-just because there is a counterfit out there does NOT mean that a person who ,as I said, "speaks in tongues as the Spirit enables" Acts 2:4 is counterfit. Too many people spend so much time looking for the devil they miss God. My Bible says, "noone speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed" 1 Cor. 12:3-so I, as a Christian, I have no fear of the counterfit.

In order for your statements in posts 23 and 72 to be validated, Oregal’s point in post 29 would have to be successfully refuted. I have seen and heard people speaking in tongues as well, whose salvation was very doubtful according to Galatians 5:22-24. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.” I think that the word “passions” is very important in that passage. It may be a key to what is happening in most if not all current revivals.

So were these people who "spoke in tongues whos salvation was very doubtful" actually Christians-if NOT then they were not "speaking in tongues as the Spirit enables" now were they?=they were manifesting a false spirit. Also the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a gift given, not because we are Holy, but because Jesus has saved us. The fruit of the Spirit however, comes from abiding in Christ-now a person can, according to scripture be saved one second and filled with the Spirit the next-ie Acts 10:46-no time for these people to bring forth fruit in there lives.

From all of the reports and my own experience, it could be said that all is not well in Glossolallialand. There are many reports of people not only speaking in tongues but manifesting “holy laughter” as described somewhere in this thread, and barking, roaring and so-called “birthing” among other things as the Toronto Blessing and similar manifestations.

I have not mentioned these things. Don't change the subject.

I have not "experienced the laughter myself" and I have not even brought this up. Tongues again (AS THE SPIRIT ENABES) is what this thread is supposed to be about. I have experienced them, and I believe I can defend what I believe-not from my experience only=as you have-but from the Word of God.

The one thing that I have found to be common among spiritual but un-Godly experiences is that the flesh is highly involved, feelings are part of the flesh. They can be misused against us. Going back to the time I was born-again, it was not a fleshly experience. I “felt” life stream into me, but emotions were absent perhaps except for the feeling of surprise and a sense of awe. These could not have been psychological effects either, because I did not expect anything, nor was it suggested to me that I should expect anything to “happen”. I was not in a state of ecstatic worship, I had one hour of a boring sermon behind me. I was only presented with the gospel and asked whether I believed, and having faith at that moment I answered simply with, “Yes.”

And your point is???? Many people have never heard of speaking in tongues either=yet found themselves speaking in them moments after salvation-ie the Gentiles in Acts 10-and my pastors wife. Emotions and feelings are not what we go by-we go by the Word-but emotions are a part of what God has given us-even God Himself is LOVE. I myself was a member of the Presbyterian church when Jesus baptised me in His Holy Spirit and I began to speak in tongues as the Spirit enabled me. No-'ecstatic worship" here, and you've not had boring until you've been in that particular Presbyterian church.

Expectation is a tool used more and more today to get worshippers to expect something. When you expect something your mind suggests that the emotions that fill you in worship are the desired effect, worshipping for long periods of time can cause “experiences” that seem real to the one experiencing them, but are only psychologically induced. From experience and observation at revivals and the like, I have seen others in a frenzy of fleshly expectation that was fulfilled either at the emotional level or even perhaps a spiritual one – causing speaking in tongues and falling over “in the spirit”, a thing often seen at Benny Hinn crusades among others. This neither proves or disproves whether God is causing the tongues, but falling over in the spirit is not recorded in Scripture as a gift or manifestation of the Holy Spirit. But the simultaneous nature of these events would at least cast doubt as to whether the speaking in tongues in those cases came from God.

Like I said, I attended a Presbyterian church at the time the Lord filled me with His Spirit and was not in a "frenzy of fleshly expectation". You have given your observations and your experience but have no scripture to come against anything I am saying-again-bring forth the Word of God-not your "fleshly experience". Also-again you are changing the subject-I never mentioned "falling over in the spirit"-

Paul nor Jesus never told us to do that, only to die to our flesh. But all of the time Bartleman was “open” he never questioned which spirit was entering him, but always insisted that it was the Holy Spirit. I am sure that he meant well for everyone concerned, but his extreme emotionalism and self-admitted effort to ignore his intellect when “open” to the Spirit cause me to doubt his capacity to judge the spiritual situation correctly. You might want to read “The Early Years of the Tongues Movement by G. Lang” who was present in the early years of the revival at: http://www.intotruth.org/tb/lang.html (http://www.intotruth.org/tb/lang.html) .

For those of us who belong to Christ we have no fear of "which spirit is entering us"- You are so afraid of the devil, you are missing God.

That was just one element of the discussion that I questioned. There are many more points, but I don’t know if you have the time to discuss them. My time is somewhat limited, I have a website to attend to among other things. We might want to limit the discussion to this aspect for the sake of brevity.

You are the one who is bringing other things into the discussion-I have consented to discussing the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues-perhaps you should start another thread if you want to discuss your website or other things.

Another aspect concerns your statement about the reception of the gift of tongues being for everyone that wants to receive it- as you say that salvation is offered. That is a highly debatable statement as well. It must be proven first that salvation is for all and then that the gift of tongues is offered likewise. It may interest others to know that the statement may not be correct as it stands even though it was stated in a matter-of-fact way.

To prove that 'salvation is for all" I give you a very simple verse=="For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son-that WHOSOEVER, believeth in Him shall have everlasting life"--as far as "the gift of tongues" being for all-those are your words not mine-I have made it plain in my above posts that the gift of tongues is NOT for all.

In Post 63 you stated: “Just because every Christian has not accepted the baptism in the Spirit doesn't mean that it is not available to them-just like salvation-it is for "whosoever will"“

Jesus stated in John 6:64,65 that, “Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."” One could argue whether it was foreknowledge or predestination that led him to this statement

So then if there are those who "do not believe" whether by foreknowledge or predestination-then they would not fit into the "whosever will" of the above verse so this has nothing to do with it.

But there is another like it: Matthew 16:15-17. “"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.”

The converse of the argument would be, if salvation is based on revelation from God to man, not based on the will of man but the will of God, then it may also be that way with the gift of tongues.

Lets get our defintions straight right here-you keep calling this "the gift of tongues" I have not-and I do not believe the Bible does-when the Bible speaks of "the gift of tongues" it speaks of the ability to give a message from the Lord in another language in the company of others so that when interpreted the whole body is edified. (1 Cor. 13:27) I have said more than once that I do not believe that all Christians (even those who speak in tongues as prayer) are used in this gift. (1 Cor. 12:30) Also-you haven't used any scripture to refute what I'm saying , only your "experience". I find this odd. You who come down on me for going by experience...are doing the same thing you're accusing me of. STRANGE!!!!

You get what God gives you, whether you asked for it or not. Simply asking him will not get you what you want unless he originally intended it. “God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?” Numbers 23:19. God’s will is infinitely stronger than man’s. I did not ask to be saved, nor was I seeking God the moment that I heard the gospel. He found me, not I him. I believe that this is also the case with the gifts. Everyone is born with various abilities that others do not have whether Christian or not, and Christians are given additional gifts that were picked out for us with ourselves and others in mind.

The baptism in the Spirit is called in scripture "the promise of the Father"-Acts 1:4 Jesus said, "How much more then will your Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ASK?" I believe the desire to be filled with His Spirit comes from God-just like salvation. Also, as far as the gifts of the Spirit are concerned-this is the only place in scripture we are told to "covet" and that is to "covet the gifts" 1 Cor. 14:1 I speak in tongues as prayer 1 Cor. 14:14, and have been used by God in the "gift of tongues" in church 1 Cor 14:27, . The gift of tongues is just one of the 9 Paul mentioned, and I believe they are given as the "Spirit wills" 1 Cor. 12:7 So, just because I gave a message in tongues last week, doesn't mean that I will do so again this week or next. I have never been used in the gift of miracles-but perhaps will be next week-the gifts we are given are, as I said, "as the Spirit wills"

There are still many aspects left unaddressed here. It is probably impossible to get to them all in a reasonable amount of time.

I am willing-but next time-please do not use only your opinions or experience-If you want to refute something I'm saying please use the Word.
Also, I had to cut some of your words-post got too long to post.

*Lu*

27th October 2005, 12:28 PM

to be a christian is to love jesus n accept him into ur life, living the way God intended. Tongues is an awesome gift but not essential.

onelamb

27th October 2005, 05:34 PM

Be careful here or one may be deceived. Other religions have been known to speak in tongues including some voodoo-based religions and I've been told that some of the head-honchos in the mormon church have spoken in tongues. I've also read accounts by people who say they tried and spoke in tongues at a service but they were not Christians. Oh, and, personally, I've known folks to give Christianity a try and at some point speak in tongues during the service but fall away soon after. They'd be the first to tell you they never really believed.

I am in no way saying that the gift of tongues is not a real gift because I know it is a gift but ALWAYS test to make sure this is from God. The devil does counterfeit 'gifts'. The Bible is very clear about the gift of tongues and Paul taught how it was to be used.

Again, I'm talking about BLOOD BOUGHT believers here-those who "speak in tongues as the Spirit enables" have no fear of a counterfit-for they know the reality of life in HIM. Now, just because satan can counterfit the things of God-doesn't mean that we as believers need to fear that WE WILL be given a counterfit Baptism in the Spirit--"Which among you when his son asks for an egg would give a stone? If you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children-how much more will your Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ASK." We have God's Word on it.

didaskalos

27th October 2005, 06:20 PM

onelamb

27th October 2005, 07:12 PM

Every born again believer can and in fact has spoken in tongues.
They just did not know what they were doing when they did it.
Prophesy too!
They just need to learn how to do it "on purpose with purpose".

HUH????? I never spoke in tongues until the Lord baptised me with His Spirit. Just like the disciples-they were saved, had the Spirit indwelling them (John 20) yet did not receive this baptism until Acts 2:4. I guess I see what your getting at-ie-groanings that cannot be uttered-but for this conversation-you're really mudding the waters. Let's keep the Word of God clear.

didaskalos

27th October 2005, 08:10 PM

HUH????? I never spoke in tongues until the Lord baptised me with His Spirit. Just like the disciples-they were saved, had the Spirit indwelling them (John 20) yet did not receive this baptism until Acts 2:4. I guess I see what your getting at-ie-groanings that cannot be uttered-but for this conversation-you're really mudding the waters. Let's keep the Word of God clear.
I like this one:

Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Godzchild

27th October 2005, 10:29 PM

My spirit prays all the time. Even when I don't pray, he's making intercession for me.

Overtime_man

27th October 2005, 11:15 PM

Godzchild

28th October 2005, 12:12 AM

yes my bible says the same thing ;)

Overtime_man

28th October 2005, 03:00 AM

yes my bible says the same thing ;)

So does anybody on this thread speak in tongues the same way as described in Acts 2:4? I'm a bit worried because I work as a translator and this could put me out of business.

didaskalos

28th October 2005, 05:53 AM

There are two kinds and sources for speaking in tongues.
One is your own, born again spirit and the other is the Holy Spirit enabled spiritual gift "diversities of tongues".
Not everyone has the Holy Spirit enabled "diversities of tongues".
But everyone can pray with tongues out of their own born again spirit.
When you speak in normal languages, you reach into your mind and get words from your intellect. When you speak in tongues, you reach into your spirit and get "psudeo" words. Nobody understands these words because they are not real words like the words that come from your mind. Rather they are words that approximate the movement that you are expressing from your spirit. Many times we "feel" (for lack of a better word) something in our spirit but we do not know exactly what it is or how to express it in the human language of our mind. But we can still express that inner spiritual "feeling" by giving it a sound. You might say "that is silly" nobody knows what I am saying... not even me!" But that is not true. "God who sees the heart" knows exactly what it means. He can take that sounding, look into your heart, and see the meaning.
This sounding does not even have to sound like a human language... it might be nothing more than a groan, moan, sigh, cry, or even a laugh! Simply put a sounding to that inner movement that cannot be expressed with "articulate" words.
This in essence is the prayer language. You have all done it. You all can. You just need to learn to do it "on purpose, with purpose"!

didaskalos

28th October 2005, 07:47 AM

So does anybody on this thread speak in tongues the same way as described in Acts 2:4? I'm a bit worried because I work as a translator and this could put me out of business.
If you study the passage and compare it with 1 Corin 12-14, you will find that the "tongues" of Acts differ in some very critical ways from devotional tongues.
First off devotiona tongues are not understood by any man... not even the speaker (1 Cor 14:2). The tongues in Acts 2 were understood by men. There were those present that heard their own languages being spoken.
Then devotional tongues ALWAYS has to be interpreted. Which makes sense because NOBODY understands them. The tongues in Acts 2 did not need to be interpreted... they were clearly understood by hundreds of people. So what happens in Acts 2 was clearly not the same as what is being described in 1 Cor.
In fact, if you read down the passage in Acts 2.... you will see Pete using Joel 2 to describe what happened.... and it called what happened "prophesying"... which makes sense because people hear the tongues in their own language and understood what what being said = prophesying!

Overtime_man

28th October 2005, 09:52 AM

If you study the passage and compare it with 1 Corin 12-14, you will find that the "tongues" of Acts differ in some very critical ways from devotional tongues.
First off devotiona tongues are not understood by any man... not even the speaker

So if I understand you correctly, these days when people speak in tongues it's always something that nobody can understand rather than the earthly languages of Acts? What's the reason for the change? Seems that real languages would be more useful.

didaskalos

28th October 2005, 12:21 PM

So if I understand you correctly, these days when people speak in tongues it's always something that nobody can understand rather than the earthly languages of Acts? What's the reason for the change? Seems that real languages would be more useful.
Not always. There are alledged instances of preachers speaking in the languages they did not know to locals. But these are actually few and far between and never documented in such a way that could be proven.
Most often is the manifestation as described in 1 Corin 14.
Nobody understands it
It is directed to God... not to men.
It needs to be interpreted if it is to be understood by men
It is a manifestation of the spirit of the speaker.

onelamb

28th October 2005, 04:00 PM

What exactly do people here mean by "speaking in tongues"?? When I read Acts 2:4-11 it seems clear that those who received the gift were talking in human languages, but people seem to want to stretch that to anything from "holy laughter" to wild babbling. What am I missing? :confused:

What you have spoken of is only one of the 3 kinds of tongues mentioned in the scripture-In reading Acts 2:4-11-it is NOT clear that those who received the baptism spoke in human languages-only that those who were there-"each HEARD them speaking in their language" in other words-a case can be made that the miracle wasn't only in the speaking-but the hearing also.-they were all speaking at once and some heard what the Spirit was saying in there own langauge-but others, made fun of them, just like people do now-saying they were drunk.

Now if you will go over to Pauls teaching on praying in the spirit-you will find that he plainly said, "he who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man, but to God--INDEED, no one understands him"-he tells us plainly to pray this way-that's what speaking to God is-this again according to Paul is for the building up of our faith. If no one understands then this couldn't be the same kind of tongues as was mentioned in Acts 2.

Also-there is the gift of tongues which, is each in turn, one at a time, and let one interpret-according to the verses you mentioned-this DID NOT happen on the day of Pentecost-or at any time we have examples of people being filled with the Spirit.--First of all, they did not do it "each in turn" but they ALL spoke ALL at once. So, we have
1. Speaking in a language you do not know to declare the gospel of Jesus Christ.
2. Praying in a language you do not know so that you can pray perfect prayers without your understanding getting in the way, to build up your faith.
3. Speaking in a languge you do not know , aloud for the others to hear that is a gift of the Spirit-given by and at the Spirits prompting that when interpreted-again by the Spirits prompting-will edify the body of Christ.

I do not know of anyone who says, "holy laughter is the same as speaking in tongues" and as far as "wild babbling" goes-it's like any language you don't know-it sounds like wild babbling to you-but the words aren't meant for your ears they are meant for Gods.

onelamb

28th October 2005, 04:04 PM

So does anybody on this thread speak in tongues the same way as described in Acts 2:4? I'm a bit worried because I work as a translator and this could put me out of business.

Even if they do=they do not need your services as a translator. The gifts of the Spirit-including the gift of interpretation are supernatural-the understanding of the tongue spoken as one of the Spiritual gifts-comes from God-not from someone who has the earthly job of translator.

Godzchild

28th October 2005, 07:44 PM

So does anybody on this thread speak in tongues the same way as described in Acts 2:4? I'm a bit worried because I work as a translator and this could put me out of business.

Well I speak in tongues and I have no idea what language it is. But there are a lot of different languages and dialects out there so who can tell. Could be some remote african tribe for all I know. Needless to say, I've never used it for ministry.

Overtime_man

28th October 2005, 10:03 PM

Not always. There are alledged instances of preachers speaking in the languages they did not know to locals. But these are actually few and far between and never documented in such a way that could be proven.

Why am I not surprised by this...

Most often is the manifestation as described in 1 Corin 14.

But again, what would the reason for that be? I'm having a hard time understanding.

didaskalos

28th October 2005, 10:39 PM

Why am I not surprised by this...
But again, what would the reason for that be? I'm having a hard time understanding.
Because this is a means by which we can both speak to God and commune to Him those things we cannot relate in articulate languages, and it is a means by which we can edify ourselves.

Oscarr

29th October 2005, 12:43 AM

I have experienced "holy laughter" and I know that the spirit that caused it was not from God. At first I did not know this, I thought that I had a spiritual experience from God. But I looked back to the moment that the Holy Spirit entered me, the moment I was reborn. The experience of "holy laughter" that I had was not caused by the Holy Spirit, it was another spirit. Not all spiritual experiences are godly ones. Scripture tells us that our bodies, our feelings, can be used against us. Even the feelings of joy and love can be grossly misused against us. Also, because holy laughter is never mentioned or even implied in Scripture, I think that the whole phenomenon is of satanic origin. It is not a counterfeit of something that God gives some Christians as a gift, like speaking in tongues, but something entirely foreign to God.

I would be very careful of making generalised statements declaring a manifestation to be of the devil. The Pharisees said that Jesus was casting out devils through the power of the devil, and He warned them of the unforgiveable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I feel in my spirit that you should be very careful of attributing anything that is practiced as part of the ministry of the Spirit as coming from the devil.

In fact, I am very concerned about what may happen to your spiritual state if you keep doing that.

If something is not of God, it will fade away because it will have no purpose. But if there are instances where people laugh and giggle under the influence of the Spirit, and it is truly of the Spirit, and you declare it of the devil, you could end up fighting directly against God. it would place you in a state of rebellion against God, and you could lose your fellowship with Him until you get it right.

Remember in the Scriptures where David was dancing before the Lord and his wife Michal criticised him. She ended up being barren for the rest of her life. Being barren and not being able to have children was a position of shame in Israel in those days, and it would have been doubly so for a king's wife. My word to you is that if you criticise people for doing unusual things and make declarations that what they are doing is of the devil, you may find that you will end up being spiritually barren, bearing no fruit in your Christian life until you repent of your attitude before God. Jesus went to a fig tree and found no fruit on it. He cursed it and it died. This is a prophetic demonstration to show what could happen to Christians who do not bear good fruit in their lives. Jesus said that trees that bear no fruit are cut down and thrown into the fire. So if you harbour a critical spirit about how others manifest in the Spirit, you may end up being a fruitless tree, with the consequences that come with it.

So I am telling you in the Name of Jesus, be careful about what you declare publicly about these things.

onelamb

30th October 2005, 02:42 PM

Why am I not surprised by this...

But again, what would the reason for that be? I'm having a hard time understanding.

According to scripture, the reasons for praying in other tongues are:
1. To build up our faith
2. So that we can pray perfect prayers-prayers that go over and above our fleshly selves-right to the throne of God without our own human nature getting in the way.
3. Prayer for those times when we don't know what, or don't know how to pray.
4. To worship in Spirit and in truth.

AllTalkNoAction

30th October 2005, 03:50 PM

Many people assume that just cos the languages were recognised that therefore tongues was for preaching - WRONG !
I may go to France and overhear 2 people speaking in English... does that mean they are talking to me or that I will know what they are talking about ?
No, but I will recognise the words.

In Acts 2 the hearers of the speaking in tongues were all left in doubt:-
2:12: And they were all amazed, *and were in doubt*, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

So they recognised real language (as can happen today when foreign people come to a meeting where the gift of tongues is used - see 1 Cor. 14), BUT they will not have what it's talking about:-

1Cor:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. . . .
1Co:14:2: For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

That's why the disciples then STOPPED speaking in tongues to allow Peter to stand up and speak *to* the crowd in the common learned language (aramaic). These people then returned to their homes, so the gospel spread far and wide without anyone having to *learn* a new language - these Jews were *already* bi-lingual.

Then later in Acts where there was no-one else around, people *still* spoke in tongues.

Tongues was, and is for speaking to God, "prayer in the Spirit", for we know not what we should pray for, the Spirit intercedes for us (Romans 8v26)
1Co:2:9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

That's why all need to pray in tongues and that's why God causes ALL to speak in tongues when they appreciate they need something more than their natural abilities.

The New Covenant began with the sign & ability to pray in tongues, and must continue the same until Jesus returns when tongues shall cease.

Overtime_man

30th October 2005, 09:16 PM

AllTalkNoAction

31st October 2005, 03:56 AM

Seeing that the purpose of tongues is allowing God to lead you in prayer to him, beyond your own understanding, it doesn't matter whether the tongue is earthly (current or extinct), what matters is that it gets beyond the limited mind of the speaker to access the peace that PASSES understandng, love, joy and power of God (Zephaniah 3v9, 1 Cor. 14v2, 4, 14-22 (Isaiah 11v28), Romans 8v26, Ephesians 6v18, Jude 19-21)

Tumbleweed64

31st October 2005, 11:46 AM

In a nutshell....... NO

J4Jesus

4th November 2005, 01:39 AM

No, it is not essential

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

But after you believe and are saved it is a promise you can recieve

Acts 2
4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2
39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

discernomatic

4th November 2005, 06:14 AM

Hi Onelamb,

Will be entering this in two parts. The entry is too long.

Part 1

Sorry I didn’t get to this earlier, had too little access to the computer and other things to do. But I didn’t forget.

“Nowhere in the NT are we told that the baptism in the Holy Spirit happens to anyone BUT Christians-exactly what is your beef here?”

I must rely on experience in this case, even though Paul did not mention counterfeit tongues in Scripture. I cannot keep the Toronto Blessing out of the picture, since those that speak in tongues there and manifest claim to be Christian, claim to have the Holy Spirit. I have not been in a church where the manifestations are seen to be so full blown as they are there, but have seen single odd manifestations here and there and heard false prophecy. I cannot judge those that manifest and say they do not have the Holy Spirit, but I can question whether the manifestations themselves and even speaking in tongues, depending on whether it is done in a haphazard and disturbing way, or in an orderly fashion, are from the Holy Spirit in those cases.

Baptism in the Spirit cannot come to any but the elect, but that this is always manifested by tongues, is the problem. Tongue speaking is not a guarantee that one has been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Some Charismatic Catholics do it and use it as proof that they have the Holy Spirit too – it might be, it might not be. Glossolallia has also been seen in voo-doo circles – and at least some of the adherents that have demonstrated it will freely admit to not being Christian.

“Do you have scriptural examples for your argument?”

Because neither Paul nor the others ever addressed that issue specifically, no, I have no scriptural examples. But that does not mean that what I describe has not happened. Many have been witness to it. I would tend to reject manifestations not described in Scripture, or not presented in a Scriptural way, rather than accept them.

In post 72 you wrote: "The Pentecostal interpretation of the letters is the only one that is correct."

You still have not explained why the Pentecostal view is better than the Presbyterian one, the Calvinist one, the Lutheran one, the Reformed one, or the Roman Catholic one. Why is it correct and all others are not? How can Pentecostalism claim exclusivity in interpretation of Scripture?

In post 29 Oregal listed examples of people speaking in tongues that were not filled with the Holy Spirit and stated: “I am in no way saying that the gift of tongues is not a real gift because I know it is a gift but ALWAYS test to make sure this is from God. The devil does counterfeit 'gifts'

”just because there is a counterfit out there does NOT mean that a person who ,as I said, "speaks in tongues as the Spirit enables" Acts 2:4 is counterfit.”

I agree with you here. But one should always be sure that the Holy Spirit is enabling the speaking in tongues, and not another. I still say that it is possible for Christians to be duped, at least temporarily. The spirit of antichrist as described in 1 John 2 can be subtle, the falseness of a false gospel or false manifestations may not be immediately apparent, especially now with the purposeful use of psychological methods of manipulation and control in churches, which many Christians are not aware of.

”So were these people who "spoke in tongues whos salvation was very doubtful" actually Christians-if NOT then they were not "speaking in tongues as the Spirit enables" now were they?=they were manifesting a false spirit.”

Since the weeds grow with the wheat (Matt. 13:25), and we do not always know who the weeds are, they are among us at church, I think that more discernment is needed in such cases. That is why I brought the topic of Frank Bartleman into the picture, and listed a website relevant to that topic. Even though he knew that false manifestations were taking place, perhaps even right next to him, Bartleman never was willing to question his own experiences. It would not have been like doubting God himself, as some claim, but would have been a show of good judgment and proper discernment, that Paul and the other Apostles would have approved of, Acts 17:11, 1 John 4:1, 2 Thess. 2:9. Jesus warned us about signs and wonders as well, Mt. 24:24, Mk. 13,22. If Christians cannot be fooled ultimately, they can be fooled temporarily, otherwise there would have been no need for the warnings of Jesus and the Apostles.

“now a person can, according to scripture be saved one second and filled with the Spirit the next-ie Acts 10:46-no time for these people to bring forth fruit in there lives.”

I agree, in the sense that an infilling with the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, it happens at that moment, causing the person to be reborn. I see no difference between salvation and an infilling of the Holy Spirit.

I interpret the day of Pentecost as put forward in Acts 2 in a different way. I see the need for Pentecost at that time because the believers could not have received the Holy Spirit earlier, it was necessary to wait for Jesus to be crucified, risen and ascend to heaven. They were the only ones that were not filled with the Spirit the moment they had faith. But since that time, all are filled, i.e. baptized in the Spirit the moment they have faith. Water baptism is only an outward sign of what has already happened inwardly. Salvation is complete, only maturity must be gained.

It may help here to look at the traditional Jewish meaning of the day of Pentecost, the 50th after Passover. It is called the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot), and in the Old Testament was originally an agricultural festival celebrating and giving thanks for the "first fruits" of the early spring harvest (Lev. 23, Exod. 23, 34). The Apostles and disciples of Jesus gathered together were the first fruits of Jesus’ ministry, Romans 8:23. They, and those immediately after them were considered first fruits, just as the 144,000 Jews will be, Revelation 14:4. Both these Christian populations lived and will live in a time of great upheaval and danger, and needed/will need special abilities proportional to what they have to go through. I’ll get back to this idea below.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is for all believers. “Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off – for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:38, 39. There they were filled, but in this case there is no mention of speaking in tongues of any sort. The phenomenon was not universal. We could give them the benefit of the doubt and pretend that they all spoke in tongues, but that would not then be scriptural. Verse 43 goes on to say that the apostles did signs and wonders, but mentions no one else doing them or manifesting in any way.

In post 73 you stated: “Richard, you need to be baptised in the Holy Spirit. Tongues are not the be all, end all of our Spiritual walk-just a part of it-one that comes naturally when we are filled with His Spirit.”

There you equate baptism in the Spirit with the manifestation of tongues, saying that it is natural for any Christian to practice speaking in them. But then why did the ones mentioned in Acts 2, according to Scripture, not have this manifestation? The apostles remained with them and therefore they should have spoken in tongues, since you claim that it is not somthing that only accompanies mature Christians, but for all at all times. That is one reason why I insist that baptism in the Holy Spirit and salvation are synonymous in post-pentecostal believers, and that speaking in tongues is not something that everyone can do.

“Tongues again (AS THE SPIRIT ENABES) is what this thread is supposed to be about. I have experienced them, and I believe I can defend what I believe-not from my experience only=as you have-but from the Word of God.”

I never stated that your experience of speaking in tongues is not authentic. But that the phenomenon is so predominant where the practice is taught, and not in other churches where it is not, is at least suspect. It is hard to apply statistics to Christianity, but theoretically speaking the gift of tongues for edification of the Body of Christ would likely be distributed fairly evenly throughout each congregation where any believers are present. You can defend your experience by testimony, but whether it is the biblical speaking in tongues as the Spirit enables is still a relative experience that is difficult to prove to others, even Christians, like being born-again is difficult to prove to those that have not experienced it.

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