some basic questions

[kimber1]

firstly, i come in peace :)

i was looking around for a FAQ of what y'all believe but i haven't really found what i was looking for. i'm just trying to gain a better persepctive of what you believe and why, the "points" (i know there are 5 and some only have 4) but i do not understand the whole tulip thing (although i know it's a pretty flower ;) )
so if someone could maybe explain some of this or point me to where i need to go it'd be much appreciated :)

peace be with you
Kim

[akolouthein]

firstly, i come in peace :)

i was looking around for a FAQ of what y'all believe but i haven't really found what i was looking for. i'm just trying to gain a better persepctive of what you believe and why, the "points" (i know there are 5 and some only have 4) but i do not understand the whole tulip thing (although i know it's a pretty flower ;) )
so if someone could maybe explain some of this or point me to where i need to go it'd be much appreciated :)

peace be with you
Kim

God bless you Kimber and I pray God guides you in your search. If you would like a great website with so much information on what we believe I suggest this first! http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/doctrinesofgrace.html

My goodness, I could look in there for a long long time and still find great resources. It is one of the sites that really helped guide me.

Grace and peace to you.

[rnmomof7]

I am thinking of posting some of the Westminister Catechism.

I think that will answer many questions

[kimber1]

God bless you Kimber and I pray God guides you in your search. If you would like a great website with so much information on what we believe I suggest this first! http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/doctrinesofgrace.html

My goodness, I could look in there for a long long time and still find great resources. It is one of the sites that really helped guide me.

Grace and peace to you.wow thanks for the link:) i could spend days there and still be lost:P i see some major questions coming y'alls way if you're only patient with me :)

[kimber1]

I am thinking of posting some of the Westminister Catechism.

I think that will answer many questionsi knew you'd be here once you saw me :)

okay just off the top of my head, TULIP. i have a question about unconditional election. this is one i can't seem to wrap my head around. how or where does the idea that God only chooses to save certain ones come from? and i hope you know i mean no disrespect this is just a tough one for me :)

[edb19]

i knew you'd be here once you saw me :)

okay just off the top of my head, TULIP. i have a question about unconditional election. this is one i can't seem to wrap my head around. how or where does the idea that God only chooses to save certain ones come from? and i hope you know i mean no disrespect this is just a tough one for me :)

Ephesians 1:4-5
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

John 17:9
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

http://www.the-highway.com/election_Boettner.html

[CCWoody]

i knew you'd be here once you saw me :)

okay just off the top of my head, TULIP. i have a question about unconditional election. this is one i can't seem to wrap my head around. how or where does the idea that God only chooses to save certain ones come from? and i hope you know i mean no disrespect this is just a tough one for me :)

Actually, my sister, the fundamental theological question is not "where does the idea that God only chooses to save certain ones," for only the Universalist, labeled heretics by the entire confessing church believe that God chose to save all. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Arminian "Protestants," and even we wicked Calvinists all affirm that God will only save some.

The fundamental question which divides us is upon what basis has God chosen to save.

The answer given by some is that God chose to save based upon some foreseen quality about that individual, whether a baptism performed by men or a decision/ choice made by men.

The answer given by we Calvinists is that God chose to save based upon nothing but his good pleasure to extend mercy to those who would have never chosen Him & don't deserve his grace to begin with. This is based upon numerous passages in the Bible.

Our Presbyterian confession states it thus (other Calvinist confessions use similar language) -- Scripture proofs are footnoted:

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn8) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn9) and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn10)

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn11) Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn12) are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn13) and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn14) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn15)

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.[17] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn16)

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn17) that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn18) So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn19) and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21 (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn20)]

[rnmomof7]

i knew you'd be here once you saw me :)

okay just off the top of my head, TULIP. i have a question about unconditional election. this is one i can't seem to wrap my head around. how or where does the idea that God only chooses to save certain ones come from? and i hope you know i mean no disrespect this is just a tough one for me :)


Kim my life has become very busy lately with a several things going on at church ( the death of a beloved elder for one)
And with family issues.

Woody's answer is excellent and I will touch bases with you later.

Love ya !

[kimber1]

no problem terry :) i'll be back later tonight with more questions after i've mulled this over for a bit. my condolences :crossrc:

[kimber1]

Actually, my sister, the fundamental theological question is not "where does the idea that God only chooses to save certain ones," for only the Universalist, labeled heretics by the entire confessing church believe that God chose to save all. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Arminian "Protestants," and even we wicked Calvinists all affirm that God will only save some.

The fundamental question which divides us is upon what basis has God chosen to save.

The answer given by some is that God chose to save based upon some foreseen quality about that individual, whether a baptism performed by men or a decision/ choice made by men.

The answer given by we Calvinists is that God chose to save based upon nothing but his good pleasure to extend mercy to those who would have never chosen Him & don't deserve his grace to begin with. This is based upon numerous passages in the Bible.

Our Presbyterian confession states it thus (other Calvinist confessions use similar language) -- Scripture proofs are footnoted:

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn8) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn9) and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn10)

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn11) Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn12) are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn13) and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn14) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn15)

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.[17] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn16)

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn17) that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn18) So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn19) and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21 (http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/III_fn.html#fn20)]okay i can see from Scripture where the elect idea comes from but i guess the problem i have is thinking that God would somehow "damn" someone just 'because'. or is it that y'all would say God knew in His infinite wisodm before all of time that these people would always reject Him and never come to Him?

another question, are most Calvinists Presbytarian or are there Calvinists in all different denoms?

okay again something about the elect. i'm assuming y'all believe in OSAS correct? in that once you're an elect nothing you ever do could cause you to fall from Grace right? but do you still see it neccessary to confess your sins? (i know that sounds kind of a dumb question but i'm trying to learn)

*headed back to the link given to find some more questions :)*

[kimber1]

okay here's what's tugging at me. with the concept of the elect, where does free will come into play?

[Imblessed]

[QUOTE=kimber1]okay i can see from Scripture where the elect idea comes from but i guess the problem i have is thinking that God would somehow "damn" someone just 'because'. or is it that y'all would say God knew in His infinite wisodm before all of time that these people would always reject Him and never come to Him? Kimber, we all are born "damned"! God chooses to save a multitude we cannot number.
Let me ask you something. If God "looked" through time, saw who was going to "choose" Him and elected these individuals based on their choice, why then, did he choose to let the others be born? Isn't He in effect "damning" some anyway, by letting them be born, KNOWING they will never choose Him? Unless you are a universalist, there is no way around the problem that there will be many millions of people over the years going to hell, and God knows it before they are even born--so you cannot claim that the calvinist's view of predestination is any more "mean" than an arminian's can you?

another question, are most Calvinists Presbytarian or are there Calvinists in all different denoms?
I am baptist, and there are some other denominations here to, but I'd say the majority of calvinists are probably presbyterian. I can tell you that there are denominations where there are very, very few, if any, calvinists. But yes, you can find calvinists in most denominations.

okay againsomething about the elect. i'm assuming y'all believe in OSAS correct? in that once you're an elect nothing you ever do could cause you to fall from Grace right? but do you still see it neccessary to confess your sins? (i know that sounds kind of a dumb question but i'm trying to learn) We believe in Preservation of the Saints, which is a bit different from OSAS; we do not believe that one can say the "magic words" and not actually change ones heart and attitude and get to heaven. We also do not believe that if one does profess faith, but dies without faith, that one was ever saved to begin with. Does that make sense?

Keep asking those questions! :wave:

[kimber1]

[QUOTE] Kimber, we all are born "damned"! God chooses to save a multitude we cannot number.
Let me ask you something. If God "looked" through time, saw who was going to "choose" Him and elected these individuals based on their choice, why then, did he choose to let the others be born? Isn't He in effect "damning" some anyway, by letting them be born, KNOWING they will never choose Him? Unless you are a universalist, there is no way around the problem that there will be many millions of people over the years going to hell, and God knows it before they are even born--so you cannot claim that the calvinist's view of predestination is any more "mean" than an arminian's can you?
heh well i have to admit when i was reading through a link about the universalist view i was kind of struggling with that one bc i'm not a universalist but i really don't like the idea of not all being saved. i was always brought up with teh concept that God desired ALL to come to Him.


We believe in Preservation of the Saints, which is a bit different from OSAS; we do not believe that one can say the "magic words" and not actually change ones heart and attitude and get to heaven. We also do not believe that if one does profess faith, but dies without faith, that one was ever saved to begin with. Does that make sense?

Keep asking those questions! :wave:okay so you're saying that once you profess your belief that your faith should show those fruits and if not then it wasn't a "true conversion"? right?

[Imblessed]

okay here's what's tugging at me. with the concept of the elect, where does free will come into play?I don't care for the concept of free will, personally, because to take this whole "free will" concept to it's logical conclusion is to imply that God is NOT in control at all, which is unbiblical to say the least, and (IMO) heretical at worst(that God is not omnipotent, or omnipresent)

Here's the way I see it.

It's those who are unregenerate who do not have free will, because they are slaves to their sins, sons of the devil, and only have the ability to choose against God. We who are saved, have more of a free will because we can make decisions for God or for ourselves. Does that make sense?

A person will only choose that which is most desirable at any given moment, and to an unregenerate person, they never desire to choose God.

But to those God has chosen, we now have the ability to choose Him, and we now have the heart and desire, so we do. And after God changes our hearts, we make choices every day--some good(because we are now able to choose good) and some bad(because we still have the sin nature, and there are still habits and desires to overcome)

When I say good and bad, I'm not talking about good and bad as we understand it, or good and bad "in totality". Even unregenerate people do "good" things everyday. There are very "good" people who are unsaved, we will all agree. But their good actions are based on selfish reasons--love of self, societal gain, desire for recognition, etc etc. These acts are not good enough for God because they are not done out of love for Him and desire to please Him--and because of that, they are not actually "good" at all. If one was able to please God just be being "a good person" there would be no need for Jesus' atonement.

I've heard over and over again--"it's a gift, but you have to accept it", or "God is a gentleman, he'd never force you to believe", or "we are robots, if we are forced to believe" but that's not true, any of it. God doesn't force us to believe against our wishes, He's not twisting our arms! What He does do is reach down and turn our hearts of stone to hearts of flesh, allowing us to see His beauty and making us capable of choosing Him. We all freely chose God. For some of us, it was easy--for others, He had to fight for it, but in the end, we all willingly and freely used our will to choose Him. It just took God opening our hearts to His beauty and love first.

[Imblessed]

[QUOTE=Imblessed]
heh well i have to admit when i was reading through a link about the universalist view i was kind of struggling with that one bc i'm not a universalist but i really don't like the idea of not all being saved. i was always brought up with teh concept that God desired ALL to come to Him.
None of us like the idea of not all being saved, but it's fact. Think about it, if God truly "desired" all to come to Him, don't you think He could accomplish that? The mere fact that he allows those who will never come to Him to be born in the first place should make you stop and think. Why would He do that? Allow those who will never come to Him to be born? Maybe, just maybe because it serves His purpose. He sees the big picture, not us.



okay so you're saying that once you profess your belief that your faith should show those fruits and if not then it wasn't a "true conversion"? right?
Yes, fruit is proof of salvation. Now, not everyone is going to have the same amount of fruit, or the same kind. And there will be some who have the appearance of fruit, but not the heart change and some who will convince themselves that if they are good enough, then God will have to let them into heaven. Those are ones God will judge, we cannot. For some, I realize that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms, but we humans are capable of really decieving ourselves and others......

[kimber1]

so do Calvinists not subscribe to free will or is that just a persoanl reflection from you personally? what i mean is you say we can choose either good or bad and we do this every day. that to me is free will right? we have free will to choose to sin or to do the right thing and run from it yet we're all guilty of it every day of our lives.

i guess thatr's what gets me stuck on this unconditional election. i can see y'alls point in that God foreknew who would be saved, but it seems to decrease the free will aspect and that's oone of the things i struggle with.

i know i've read somewhere (probably in the CCC) that it's acceptable as a Catholic to subscribe to some of these points but right at the moment i can't remember where i read it but i also remember there being a "as long as" added to what i read and i can't recall what that was. :P

can someone explain the preservation of the Saints a bit more?

[Radagast]

For a totally Catholic (but fairly friendly) view on Calvinism, see http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm. I quote:

Thomas Aquinas wrote, "God wills to manifest his goodness in men: in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of his mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others.... Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will. Hence Augustine says, 'Why he draws one, and another he draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err.'"
Personally I think Calvinism represents the consistent conclusion to what Thomas Aquinas and Augustine taught.

-- Radagast

[Radagast]

... What He does do is reach down and turn our hearts of stone to hearts of flesh, allowing us to see His beauty and making us capable of choosing Him...
As that ultimate Calvinist document, the Canons of Dordt (http://www.prca.org/cd_text3.html) says:

But when God accomplishes his good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, he not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illumines their minds by his Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit, pervades the inmost recesses of the man; he opens the closed, and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised, infuses new qualities into the will, which though heretofore dead, he quickens; from being evil, disobedient and refractory, he renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions.

And this is the regeneration so highly celebrated in Scripture, and denominated a new creation: a resurrection from the dead, a making alive, which God works in us without our aid. But this is in no wise effected merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation, that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted; but it is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable; not inferior in efficacy to creation, or the resurrection from the dead, as the Scripture inspired by the author of this work declares; so that all in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner, are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe. - Whereupon the will thus renewed, is not only actuated and influenced by God, but in consequence of this influence, becomes itself active. Wherefore also, man is himself rightly said to believe and repent, by virtue of that grace received.

-- Radagast

[Imblessed]

so do Calvinists not subscribe to free will or is that just a persoanl reflection from you personally? what i mean is you say we can choose either good or bad and we do this every day. that to me is free will right? we have free will to choose to sin or to do the right thing and run from it yet we're all guilty of it every day of our lives. we have free will right up until it goes against God's Will. We are not free enough to change what God ordains. Taking free will to it's logical conclusion leads you right to Open Theism, which is heretical by any standard. God is soveriegn. Whether you believe His is soveriegn because He somehow looks through time and sees who is going to accept Him and "plans" accordingly, or you believe He is sovereign because He IS God and sees the big picture and ordains all that is to happen is beside the point. I think it's important, but it doesn't change the fact that He KNOWS all, and not one person on earth can change what He knows or suprise Him. Look at it this way---BIG PICTURE(God's view), No free will because we cannot change what will be LITTLE PICTURE(man's view)-- free will in that we make choices everyday based on lots of things, we are not robots, we choose right and wrong all the time


i guess thatr's what gets me stuck on this unconditional election. i can see y'alls point in that God foreknew who would be saved, but it seems to decrease the free will aspect and that's oone of the things i struggle with.
it depends on how far you are willing to go with the whole free will theory. I don't feel like I'm a robot. Calvinists are not fatalists, we are not saying that people can't choice, or are forced to choose against their will.

i know i've read somewhere (probably in the CCC) that it's acceptable as a Catholic to subscribe to some of these points but right at the moment i can't remember where i read it but i also remember there being a "as long as" added to what i read and i can't recall what that was. :P
I don't know enough of cathlicism to know one way or another...sorry.

can someone explain the preservation of the Saints a bit more?
I'll try to let someone else do that. I'm not so good at explaining that...

[rnmomof7]

okay i can see from Scripture where the elect idea comes from but i guess the problem i have is thinking that God would somehow "damn" someone just 'because'. or is it that y'all would say God knew in His infinite wisodm before all of time that these people would always reject Him and never come to Him?



Morning Kim,

Finally a bit of a break...

We have to realize that ALL men without exception deserved to be damned.
I think some of what we hear in the pulpits today implied that God OWES every man a chance to be saved.
Some would say that is only "fair". but see what is fair is that all men go to hell.
So God is not fair, because He has ordained that some men will be saved even though they do not deserve it .
We call that Mercy . Mercy is getting what you do not deserve.
One has to be tried and found guilty BEFORE you can get mercy, so all of us have been tried and found guilty.

We can not do things to change that decree. Just like a man that was found guilty of a crime depends solely on the judge to give mercy.
If he goes to jail and does "good time" and does all the right things, they may let him out early for good behavior, but that is not unconditional mercy.The stain of the crime remain and his release is conditional.
The Bible tells us God has mercy on us, we can do nothing to "earn that " . It is all His grace and His mercy..

God tells us that He "will have mercy on whom I will have Mercy" ( Romans 9)

He has known for all eternity the name of every man and woman He will save. Our names are written on His hand.

The next thing we are sometimes asked is will God turn away the non elect that want to come to Him.

God turns away no one that comes to Him, as many as WILL, He saves.

The key word there is will.
The non elect will never chose to repent and believe without the grace of God drawing them and
(No one can come to me unless the Father draw him John 6).







another question, are most Calvinists Presbytarian or are there Calvinists in all different denoms?

There are lots of Calvinist denominations

okay again something about the elect. i'm assuming y'all believe in OSAS correct? in that once you're an elect nothing you ever do could cause you to fall from Grace right? but do you still see it neccessary to confess your sins? (i know that sounds kind of a dumb question but i'm trying to learn)

*headed back to the link given to find some more questions :)*

Kim, one thing about the saved is we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into truth and to convict us of our sin.

We confess our sins not because we fear damnation, but because we so love the father we do not want our fellowship with Him impaired in any way .
When we sin the weight of that sin pulls us to our knees.

We believe once we have been saved we have the ability not to sin, something we did not have in the adamic nature.

[tigersnare]

okay i can see from Scripture where the elect idea comes from but i guess the problem i have is thinking that God would somehow "damn" someone just 'because'.

*Please dont' take this as hostile*

Most people have a "man centered" world view that affects how they percieve the world around them. This bleeds over into the way they read and understand scripture. I think the hardest thing for me, and apprently for the Church in Rome as well (Romans 9) was realizing that God is God, I am not, and God will do what God will do. And as Paul so kindly put it, who I am to answer back to God? Does he not have the right to make me into a vessel of wrath prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels prepared for eternity with him in Christ?

In Adam, I fell, I sinned, I died, I was cursed, I am guilty. I was born deserving wrath, I lived 20 years like there was no God. My past is evidence enough of total depravity, irresistable grace, and now unconditional election. I did nothing and continue to do nothing to have merited God's grace and favor...as well as to merit a "chance". I dont' deserve a chance, I rebelled in Adam and continue to rebel, what makes me think God owes me anything but wrath and judgment? Nothing...save Christ now.

[frumanchu]

okay i can see from Scripture where the elect idea comes from but i guess the problem i have is thinking that God would somehow "damn" someone just 'because'. or is it that y'all would say God knew in His infinite wisodm before all of time that these people would always reject Him and never come to Him?

Calvinists believe election is unconditional. That means there is nothing about the individual (foreseen faith, works, great hair, etc) that leads or compels Him to choose one individual over another. He does so according to the good pleasure of His will. As fallen individuals they are viewed as being condemned already, so in terms of justice there is no compulsion whatsoever to save them. If God were obligated to save anyone (let alone everyone), it would not be grace but justice.

The Calvinist cannot tell you what the reason was God chose one person and not another, but he can tell you what the reason wasn't.

[edb19]

okay here's what's tugging at me. with the concept of the elect, where does free will come into play?

From one of the study helps in my Bible (Reformation Study Bible). While I think that we often depend on the helps too much - I think this one explains pretty clearly. Sorry - don't know who to attribute to as there are multiple contributers (although I can say R.C. Sproul is the general editor). I have taken this pretty much word for word.

Free agency: all humans are free agents in that they make their own decisions, choosing as they please in the light of their conscience, inclinations and thoughts. They are answerable to God and to the rest of humanity for their choices. Glorified saints exercise their will, their choices are the product of human free agency in accordance with their nature. But because of the transformation of their hearts, the choices are good and right - we desire to do what is right.

Free will has been defined by Christian teachers from the second century on as the ability to choose any at all of the moral options offered in a given situation. Augustine taught that this possibility was lost through the fall. The loss is part of the burden of original sin. After the fall, our natural hearts are not inclined toward God; they are in bondage to sin and cannot be freed from this slaver except by the grace of regeneration.

Only a will that has been set free is able to choose righteousness freely and heartily. A permanent love of righteousness, an inclination of the heart to the way of living that pleases God, is one aspect of the freedom that Christ gives.

Romans 6:16-23, John 8:34-36, Galatians 5:1, 13

[kimber1]

For a totally Catholic (but fairly friendly) view on Calvinism, see http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm. I quote:


Personally I think Calvinism represents the consistent conclusion to what Thomas Aquinas and Augustine taught.

-- Radagastoh God bless you for that link!!! that was exactly what i was talking about earlier :) i knew there was somehting that said as a Catholic i could agree with one thing but not the other and that "other" is double predestination.

These passages, as well as the official teaching of the Church [20], require the Catholic to affirm that Christ died to atone for all men. see this from that link...i KNEW there was a reason i got stuck on that universalist view:P

see looking at that link it seems as though maybe we aren't quite as different as some think? :)

[kimber1]

We believe once we have been saved we have the ability not to sin, something we did not have in the adamic nature.okay this you're gonna have to explain to me because i still sin everyday. ;)

[kimber1]

The Calvinist cannot tell you what the reason was God chose one person and not another, but he can tell you what the reason wasn't.
okay i have to ask ;) what wasn't?

[kimber1]

Only a will that has been set free isable to choose righteousness freely and heartily. A permanent love of righteousness, an inclination of the heart to the way of living that pleases God, is one aspect of the freedom that Christ gives.

so is this kind of saying that only the elect have freewill?

[edb19]

okay this you're gonna have to explain to me because i still sin everyday. ;)

I'm with you, but maybe I'm misunderstanding rnmom. I don't know of a single reformed Christian who says they don't sin. We grow in sanctification - we become more aware of our sin and we hate it more. Sin does have less of a hold on us. The law, once our condemnation, becomes the guidance of a loving Father.

[edb19]

so is this kind of saying that only the elect have freewill?

As I understand reformed doctrine and free will - because of Adam we are slaves to sin. We are free to make decisions, to make choices. However those decisions are not for God because we are corrupt by nature. Sinners do not choose God, they choose sin.

We do not elect ourselves, God, in His sovereignty, elects some men and women to be believers. The Holy Spirit works in these people to turn their hearts towards God, hence they become regenerate. Without the Holy Spirit changing our heart we have no desire for Christ, without a desire for Him, we would never choose Him.

Does that help???

BTW - if I may suggest a book that is a good overview of reformed theology.

Essential Truths of the Christian Faith by R.C. Sproul
It is written with the layperson in mind. There are ~100 chapters, most 2-3 pages. It covers just about every topic you can imagine - just the basics - but enough to get a good, general idea about reformed beliefs. There's Scriptural references for each topic - it could easily be incorporated into devotional/Bible study time.

edie

[frumanchu]

okay this you're gonna have to explain to me because i still sin everyday.

What rnmomof7 is saying is that prior to regeneration an individual is not able to do anything truly good. Everything we do, even the most noble civic virtue, is tainted by our sinfulness and thus not inherently pleasing to God. That which is not of faith is sin, and the unregenerate man has no faith. Therefore everything he does is sin in the eyes of God. This is a very difficult concept for us as sinners to grasp, but to a perfectly holy God even an unbeliever's "best works" are not pleasing to Him.

Prior to the Fall, Adam had both the ability to sin and the ability to not sin.

After the Fall, Adam (and thus all men by birth) still had the ability to sin, but no longer had the ability to not sin. In other words he could not not sin.

The regenerate person, indwelt by the Holy Spirit but still battling the corruption of the flesh, has both the ability to sin and the ability to not sin.

Once we are glorified in Heaven, we will no longer have the ability to sin and will retain the ability to not sin. IOW, we can no longer sin! :clap:

You can read more about this here (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/four-fold.html), including quotes from Saint Augustine himself.


okay i have to ask what wasn't?

It wasn't any condition we met or anything he saw in us beforehand. :)

so is this kind of saying that only the elect have freewill?

Yes!! :thumbsup:

Man is not born with "free will." His will is in slavery to sin (or in "bondage" as Luther termed it). He has the natural ability to choose good (natural ability being defined as simply the ability to choose what one wants) but lacks the moral ability to choose good (his heart is completely disinclined from God and therefore he only wants to choose evil).

God sets our will free from bondage to a sinful heart.

These are great questions, kimber. Keep em coming! :)

[rnmomof7]

okay this you're gonna have to explain to me because i still sin everyday. ;)

Luther wrote a book call "The bondage of the will"

The point is that once Adam sinned all the children of Adam are born with their will in bondage to sin.


Think of it this way . All of our choices are made on the basis of our preferences.
The unsaved man does not have a preference for God or the things of God.

The man will choose based on unregenerate preferences. Because the choice , no matter how good it looks to us, is a sin to God because it was made based on human standards and was not a work of God in him. So the unregenerate can not help but sin

man, although still a free moral agent, is fallen and sinful.' It is not in his nature to choose that which is spiritually good (to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, for example). Just as God by nature is good and can only choose to do that which is good, fallen, unregenerate man is by nature sinful and can only choose to do that which is sinful. Look at Paul's explanation in Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slave whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?" A slave doesn't choose his master, but the master chooses his slaves. If a man is a slave to sin, he will choose according to his master, his nature. Man is born into this world enslaved to sin because it is our nature as offspring of Adam's race (Rom. 5:12).

That is a excerpt from this simple article

http://www.credenda.org/issues/9-1doctrine101.php


Kim when a man is saved, for the first time he has a real choice to sin or not to sin, he is no longer a slave to the sin and the sin nature.
When we are born again, like Adam before the fall we have the ability not to eat from the tree.
Remember when Adam sinned ? What was his response to that sin? First he tried to cover it so God would not see it , then he hid from God. He did not seek out God to repent and ask forgiveness God had to seek him out .

Then when confronted by God he tried to justify the sin and even blamed God for it.
THAT is an unregenerate man.

A saved man is convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit, it is a weight and burden to him, he seeks out God to confess and repent. He does that because he is no longer a slave to sin.He now belongs to Christ.

On the other hand everything the unsaved man does is sin to God because it is centered in an unsaved heart and carnal desire it is not a work of God in the man it is a work of the flesh

[tigersnare]

okay i have to ask ;) what wasn't?

I'm pretty sure the answer was contained in the same post Calvinists believe election is unconditional. That means there is nothing about the individual (foreseen faith, works, great hair, etc) that leads or compels Him to choose one individual over another. He does so according to the good pleasure of His will.

It is not based on who we were, who we are, or who we will be. It is not based on what we've done, what we are doing, or what we will do. It is soley based on God's will for his creation.

[kimber1]

i'd just like to thank y'all for answering my questions so nicely :clap: i dunno, it seems we actually do have much in common. i get that y'all don't agree with what i believe 100% and that's cool. i firmly believe that we both believe the basics and the little stuff will be sorted out in the end. :)

[rnmomof7]

i'd just like to thank y'all for answering my questions so nicely :clap: i dunno, it seems we actually do have much in common. i get that y'all don't agree with what i believe 100% and that's cool. i firmly believe that we both believe the basics and the little stuff will be sorted out in the end. :)


Augustine was a Catholic Theologian and much of the foundation that Luther had was found in Augustine. Calvin was raised as a Catholic and a scholar so much of what he brought came from his roots.

Kim we share the same creed, we have a similar foundation, so it is natural that we would hold a lot in common.

As Calvinists we rest in the sovereignty of God and trust He has every man where he has ordained they be.
A friend once called that the comfort of Calvinism, to know that we are in Gods ordained will no matter what.

Peace my friend

[CCWoody]

okay i can see from Scripture where the elect idea comes from but i guess the problem i have is thinking that God would somehow "damn" someone just 'because'. or is it that y'all would say God knew in His infinite wisodm before all of time that these people would always reject Him and never come to Him?

To be honest, I, too, have a problem that God would somehow condemn someone "just because." This is not what I see in the Bible. What I see is that the Father envisioned from a single lump of fallen humanity a people whom he "sees" to be a particular people of his grace and mercy. This is a brief explaination of "Election." These people were not elected to receive this grace based upon anything they would say or do. In fact, it is in specific disregard for their crimes that the Father elects them.

The rest are left to be judged with a specific eye toward their crimes. This is not a damnation just because, but a damnation for which we all so richly deserve.

It has been my personal observation that people object to the idea of the Father's election, not because they have any real problem with this kind of salvation, but because they fret against the idea that the rest are not saved in the same way. But, this hesitation has as its root that it is somehow unfair to those who are not saved.

But, I ask: How has God done unjustly to a man by not even offering him what he doesn't deserve to begin with? We rebelled against God, collectively and individually. We don't deserve to be saved. What we ought to ask the Lord is: "Why would you view me and my sin and what I did to pervert your image and even want to save me?"



The very idea itself would pervert God's righteousness and sovereignty to say that he cannot have mercy on some and have justice on others.What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So, then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. ~ Romans 9:14-16


okay again something about the elect. i'm assuming y'all believe in OSAS correct? in that once you're an elect nothing you ever do could cause you to fall from Grace right? but do you still see it neccessary to confess your sins?


Yes, once the Father has elected to save me and provide for me all the benefits of that election; once the Son has made a penal substitutionary atonement for my sin and become my Surety and Advocate before the Father; once the Holy Spirit has communicated all that God is for me to me, then, no, nothing I will ever do or say will cause me to fall from this grace.

This does not mean that it is not important to confess my sins. Merely the full revelation of God's grace to the elect causes them to freely confess their sins, just as Isaiah, when he saw the glory of the LORD freely confessed his crimes: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips,.... For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."



Understand this: I chose the Lord freely out of love for the Lord. I confessed my sins freely out of disguist for myself. But if I say that I chose the Lord before he chose me or that the Lord chose me because I chose him, then I make a lie of the Scriptures.For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. ~ Bishop Saint Augustine of Hippo


Faith, belief, confession of sins, are the natural responses to salvation, just as breathing is the first and natural response of an infant newly born. We breathe in and cry out. These things are not the cause of my salvation any more than breathing and crying are the cause of my being born. What mother doesn't instinctively know this and so, even in her own distress listen for that first sound to know that things are well?

[GLJCA]

okay again something about the elect. i'm assuming y'all believe in OSAS correct? in that once you're an elect nothing you ever do could cause you to fall from Grace right? but do you still see it neccessary to confess your sins? (i know that sounds kind of a dumb question but i'm trying to learn)
:)*

The answer to this question is NO! Most Calvinists do not believe in OSAS. Let me explain why.

The 5th point of Calvinism states: "They whom God hath accepted in his beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end., and be eternally saved".

OSAS is a counterfeit of the 5th point of Calvinism, Perseverance of the Saints . It was created by those who wanted to take the Perseverance out of salvation. What was created was an easy believism that teaches that once I am saved I can live however I want because I now have a "GET OUT OF HELL CARD". They say that once someone is "SAVED" that there is nothing that they can do to lose that salvation. I see this no where in scripture. Now before you jump read the rest of the post.

1. I see warnings to the Church that if one doesn't presevere in the faith they can be cut off from the Covenant and salvation. (Rom 11:22).
2. I see admonitions to the NT Covenant people of God that we can come short of the promise of Rest that God gave His people if we are in unbelief (Heb 4:1), and therefore not enter into that rest.
3. I read the warning that Paul gave the Corinthians in chapter 15 that they were "saved" if they continue in his teachings.
4. I read the parable of the wicked steward in Matt 18:23 where the steward was forgiven all of his debt but when he didn't forgive another, his debt was restored and he was cast into prison. This was a servant of the King of the Kingdom and the parable was likened to the Kingdom of Heaven. The last verse says, So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

In each of these scriptures the writer is speaking to the Covenant People of God not heathen people. He is telling Christians that if they don't persevere they will not enter into God's rest and be cut off from the Covenant people of God.

OSAS denies and ignores these warnings. It gives people a false sense of security just like the Jews had who were relying on their being descendants of Abraham to make them secure with God. They thought that since they were circumcised and a descendant of Abraham that they were safe with God and Jesus told them that they were of their father the devil (John 8).

Scripture tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, yet we know that it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil 2:12).

We do not know who is ordained to eternal life but God has given us indicators by which we can know that we are one of Christ's.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.
1John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

This is where our security must come from. If I am a Christian and not doing these things then I have no reason to be secure in my salvation no matter what OSAS tells me. One who is ordained to eternal life in Christ will do these things because it is the Holy Spirit working His fruit through him.

GLJCA

[nb_christseeker]

we believe that Yeshua Christ, God's Son, is the Lord and that He was crucified and died. We believe that God raised Him from the dead on the third day, and whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

Any christian in here believe anything differently?

[kimber1]

oh hey you're preaching to the choir about the OSAS thing :) i'm Catholic remember and believe that true 100% etrnal salvation is attainable only upon death.

[GLJCA]

we believe that Yeshua Christ, God's Son, is the Lord and that He was crucified and died. We believe that God raised Him from the dead on the third day, and whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

Any christian in here believe anything differently?

I definitely believe that!! The difference is in what we think is involved in the word "believe"? Do we think that "believe" describes a one time act in which we transfer citizenship from the world to Heaven or does "believe" describe a lifestyle? OSAS defines it as a one time act where a person believes in Christ and is saved and transfers citizenship that can never be taken away but is that biblical?

Our definitions are important.

GLJCA

[GLJCA]

oh hey you're preaching to the choir about the OSAS thing :) i'm Catholic remember and believe that true 100% etrnal salvation is attainable only upon death.

I have been in a PCA Presbyterian Church for a few years now. I used to be a Southern Baptist. I learned about the Covenant theology from a friend at work and it changed my life. The reason I am so adamantly against OSAS is because I was deceived by it for about 40 years.

I personally believe that God has ordained some to eternal life from the foundation of the world. We don't know who they are because God has not reveal that to us. I truly believe that I am one of them and my assurance lies in what the Word of God tells me in the scriptures that I shared earlier. Those that God has ordained to eternal life will persevere to the end, and all the rest will fall away and go back to the world.

:wave:GLJCA

[Erinwilcox]

I'm against the OSAS in the way that it is usually used, but once a person is TRULY saved, they will then always remain TRULY saved.

[GLJCA]

I'm against the OSAS in the way that it is usually used, but once a person is TRULY saved, they will then always remain TRULY saved.

I personally would say it differently. I would say a person who is ordained to eternal life by God from the foundation of the world can never be lost.

Your statement depends on your definition of the word "saved". If you define it as "eternally secure in heaven" then you will have problems with a mirad of scriptures, where the writers of the NT warned Covenant members to persevere in the faith or they would be cut off from the vine (John 15), or that the Gentile Christians in Rome would be cut off from the covenant(Rom 11). Paul acknowledge that the Corinthians were saved if they continued in his teaching (1Cor 15:1-2). He also told the Christians in Colosse (Col. 1:20-23) that they were reconciled to Christ "IF" they continued in the faith. We are told to make our calling and election sure (1Pet 1:10) because unless we are doing the things that show the fruit of the Spirit in our lives we have no assurance of salvation.

On the other hand if we define "saved" as being "delivered" as the Bible does, then one possibly could enter into the covenant with God through belief and baptism, be delivered from the world, have his sins forgiven, receive the blessings that God gives to His Covenant people, and continue on that way for years, then fall into unbelief and turn away from the faith and die in his sins. Was this person ordained to eternal life? Nope but I would, according to the biblical definition of the word, consider him "saved" while he was in the covenant. If we don't look at the scriptures covenantally we will be in contradiction with the Word. Sure the Arminian and the OSAS folk can both find some scriptures to back their views but neither side can or will deal with the scriptures that contradict their position. In my opinion, only from the covenantal view can these things be understood correctly. In the OT a person who was in covenant was one of God's people and therefore saved, those outside of the covenant were heathen and lost. What has changed?

In reformed circles the trend is to move away from the historic reformed views of covenant and move closer to a Baptistic view which largely does away with New Covenant responsibility and teaching. It is incomprehensible to me that God changed the salvation process from the OT to the NT. Both the OT and the NT believers looked to the Messiah for salvation. In the OT to believe was a lifestyle not a one time act but in the NT "to believe" has suddenly become a one time act that gives someone a "get out of Hell free card". Personally I believe when Paul told the jailer, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house", he was talking about a life time of belief not just a momentary mind change.

I was told once that if the man in 1 Cor 5, who was sleeping with his father's wife and was excommunicated by the Church, died he would still go to heaven because he was saved. What do you think?

GLJCA

[Cajun Huguenot]

I do not like the phrase OSAS nor do I use it. I think we Reformed Christians need to stick with the Canons of Dort (and IMHO the Scriptures) and teach "perseverance." All who are elect before the foundation of the world will persevere.

The Reformed Doctrine of perseverance does no allow for the easy believe-ism that is associated with, and so prevalent among so many of our OSAS brethren.

I posted an article on this subject a few months back. It is here:
Perseverance or OSAS (http://www.christianforums.com/t2052226-perseverance-or-osas.html)

In Christ,
Kenith

[DCA777]

Could it be said that Calvinists take a "compatibalist" view of free will vs. strict determinism?