How does this add up to your doctrine?

[Unreformedbythetruth]

Romans 11:17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Doesn't it show that even the elect of God can be cut out for unbelief!!!

[seekingpurity047]

This doesn't contradict anything. Look at the parallel that Paul is speaking of: John 15:1-11

1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch of mine that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

Notice how the branches that Paul and Jesus are talking about (the ones that break off) are those who believed in vain.

1 Cor. 15:1-2

1Now I would remind you, brothers,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=47&context=context#fen-ESV-28699a)] of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

Those who have believed in vain are not part of the elect, regardless of that which you will say. These are people who will believe because it's "cool" or "different". Think about "christians" converting to islam. Those people never were really christians at all if they convert to islam, or some other religion. Clearly their reasoning is simply that they don't like Christianity, so they switch! CHRISTIANITY IS NOT A RELIGION! Though people would say otherwise. The people who believed in vain never were christians in the first place. Hence, the elect cannot be cut off, but only those who have believed in vain. John 6:37

37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Seriously correcting your mistake,

Randy

[Unreformedbythetruth]

The disciple's are the elect(branches) and Jesus warns them that if they do not remain in him, they are no good for nothing

I believe in the elect very much, but it goes much deeper than that. I believe in the called workers in the field choosen by God Those who have been predestined before the foundation of the world.

God does include with them, those that hear the gospel of their salvation having believed.

The scripture clearly shows me that only believers are guarenteed to be saved, for even the elect of God will be cut out for unbelief.

I'm just a child, who's only hope is in Jesus.

Jesus called the world and gave them a choice to believe or not to believe and the consequences for thier choice. He made the elect the messengers of that.

I believe in the the elect of God, but they are workers for the harvast.

[tigersnare]

Jesus called the world and gave them a choice to believe or not to believe and the consequences for thier choice. He made the elect the messengers of that.



Did you just make this up? How do you read Romans 9?

[Unreformedbythetruth]

No I read John 3:16 and throughthat has set before us life and death, so choose Jesus, so that you may live.

God will show mercy on believers and condemn unbelievers as the word of God says.

God will show mercy on whom He wills and He will to show mercy on believers.

Abraham was not saved by works of the law, for there was no law. He was not saved by works at all.

He believed God and it was credited to him as righteouseness.

It was not His work that he was saved, but the belief of the works of God, who provided the sacrifice.

He had to accept it as we do Jesus in order to be save, but it was the work of the cross that we are saved by.

The wages of our sin is death, so we cannot save ourselves. The only hope we do have is Jesus.

[tigersnare]

for even the elect of God will be cut out for unbelief.


Those so called "elect" do not exist. These elect however do..

Romans 8
29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

[Unreformedbythetruth]

I praise God for the elect, if it was not for the work they were called by God to do to reach people like me, i would of never knew of the hope for the world through Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

[seekingpurity047]

We have a choice to choose God... ok... Have you read the bible? Is it us who bears our own faith? Is it us who makes our own faith. Nope.

Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Woah! DOUBLE IMPORTANCE THERE! What are you saying Paul? Sorry... what? did you just say... faith is not of my doing... hence not my choice? Wow!!!! THAT'S AWESOME!

Randy

[Unreformedbythetruth]

What is the wages of your sin.

Did you pay your wages.

No you didn't, Jesus did.

It is not your work that saved you, because it wouldn't be salvation but death.

It is a free gift, that God is offering to you, but you going to have to accept it in order to receive.

Any gift free or not, you have to accept in order to receive it.

[tigersnare]

Eh..:scratch: Umm...where to start, where to start....

[seekingpurity047]

What is the wages of your sin.

Did you pay your wages.

No you didn't, Jesus did.

It is not your work that saved you, because it wouldn't be salvation but death.

It is a free gift, that God is offering to you, but you going to have to accept it in order to receive.

Any gift free or not, you have to accept in order to receive it.

That's interesting, but illogical. Now, you say that we have to accept the gift from God. Ok. But if "It is not your work that saved you..." then.... why do I have to accept anythign on my behalf? Wouldn't the acceptance of something be a work in itself? You'll have to do better than that, because when you say that we have to accept the free gift of God, then you reject scripture. So you say "OK. Prove it!" No problem. John 6:29 'Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."'

What? Jesus just said that it is the work of God that you believe in Him... hmm... don't see Jesus saying that we have to accept his working in us to believe in Him.

Your response = illogical.

Randy

[Unreformedbythetruth]

Luke 10:2
He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.

Here you have the few workers(elect).

R

evelation 7

144,000 Sealed

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Here is the harvast and where they come from.



The Great Multitude in White Robes

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!" 13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

14I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."



I have no problem with the elect of God, but they are tools of God to reach the world with His love for them that He showed at the cross.

There was a closed door because of the sin of Adam, but Jesus has changed it and reopened the door and made the elect of God the messengers of it.



Romans 5

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

2 Corinthians 5

16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

I still believe Jesus that God loved the world, and since He loved the world He provided a way for all men to be saved through Jesus Christ and made His elect the messengers of it.

[seekingpurity047]

OK OK... hold on a second. The elect are but the messengers of God... interesting. Well... who are the messengers of God? You will say, the elect. *sigh* vicious circle you have yourself in here, you need to get yourself out. Notice something odd about your reasoning. Aren't all believers called to be messengers of God? Think about it. Have you ever read the Gospel according to Matthew. Like... common! The great commission. Matthew 28:16-20

16Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028&version=47#fen-ESV-24208b)] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." [ESV]

Interestingly enough... we are all called to be messengers of God. And, using your reasoning, therefore, we are all part of the elect. Hmm... It's simple reasoning. Deductive reasoning, that is.

The Believers are the messengers of God.
The Messengers of God are the elect.
So, the believers are the elect.

It's sheer logic. You are saying that there are two classes, but according to Jesus, there is but one. Therefore, according to Truth, there is but one class of believers.

Randy

P.S. Let me remind you that God is a God of reason. Isaiah 1:18

18"Come now, let us reason[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%201:18;&version=47;#fen-ESV-17670a)] together, says the LORD:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.

[rnmomof7]

The disciple's are the elect(branches) and Jesus warns them that if they do not remain in him, they are no good for nothing

I believe in the elect very much, but it goes much deeper than that. I believe in the called workers in the field choosen by God Those who have been predestined before the foundation of the world.

God does include with them, those that hear the gospel of their salvation having believed.

The scripture clearly shows me that only believers are guarenteed to be saved, for even the elect of God will be cut out for unbelief.

I'm just a child, who's only hope is in Jesus.

Jesus called the world and gave them a choice to believe or not to believe and the consequences for thier choice. He made the elect the messengers of that.

I believe in the the elect of God, but they are workers for the harvast.
(1.) The doom of the unfruitful (v. 2): They are taken away. [1.] It is here intimated that there are many who pass for branches in Christ who yet do not bear fruit. Were they really united to Christ by faith, they would bear fruit; but being only tied to him by the thread of an outward profession, though they seem to be branches, they will soon be seen to be dry ones. Unfruitful professors are unfaithful professors; professors, and no more. It might be read, Every branch that beareth not fruit in me, and it comes much to one; for those that do not bear fruit in Christ, and in his Spirit and grace, are as if they bore no fruit at all, Hos. 10:1. [2.] It is here threatened that they shall be taken away, in justice to them and in kindness to the rest of the branches. From him that has not real union with Christ, and fruit produced thereby, shall be taken away even that which he seemed to have, Lu. 8:18. Some think this refers primarily to Judas.

Matthew Henry

[Unreformedbythetruth]

God choose 12, to be his elect. Then you have people like mary, who where not the elect but saved.

I have no problem with limiting the elect which the scripture clearely shows, but the saved will be like the sands of the seashore.

I have no problem with you all limiting the workers, to do the work that God has prepared for them to do

To tell the world His love for them and the hope that is found in Jesus Christ

The scripture is our doctrine, if we add or take away from that, we will face the plagues discribed in the book.

I found people holding their doctrine out more than Christ, maybe it is just to lead them astray.

The scripture is a real dollar bill, and man-made doctine is a fake dollar bill.

I find the most problem with people is they study the fake dollar bill for so long,that the real dollar bill as became fake and the fake dollar bill has became the truth.

[Unreformedbythetruth]

Accepting Christ, or believing in Him, did that work pay our debt.

No it didn't, so it is still the work of the cross that saved us.

If i give you something I made, and you accepted it. Would you say look what my hands have made?

All praise, boosting, and glorifying goes to the one who did the work, not to the one who accepted the gift.



John 6:27-29




27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."


28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

There was this worker who wanted to work for a farmer. So He ask the one in charge of the work, What is the work of the farmer. The one in Charge said the work of the farmer is to pull weeds. So if He wanted to work for the farmer, He had to pull weeds. He has a choice He can walk away and not pull weeds, or he can pull weeds. It is still the work of the farmer.

[BBAS 64]

Accepting Christ, or believing in Him, did that work pay our debt.

No it didn't, so it is still the work of the cross that saved us.

If i give you something I made, and you accepted it. Would you say look what my hands have made?

All praise, boosting, and glorifying goes to the one who did the work, not to the one who accepted the gift.



John 6:27-29




27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."


28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

There was this worker who wanted to work for a farmer. So He ask the one in charge of the work, What is the work of the farmer. The one in Charge said the work of the farmer is to pull weeds. So if He wanted to work for the farmer, He had to pull weeds. He has a choice He can walk away and not pull weeds, or he can pull weeds. It is still the work of the farmer.

Good Day, unreformed

I am not sure where you got this translation, but it is error.

Joh 6:28

(ALT) Therefore, they said to Him, "What shall we be doing so that we shall be working the works of God?"

(ASV) They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?

(Bishops) Then saide they vnto him: What shall we do, that we myght worke ye workes of God?

(ESV) Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"

(GB) Then sayde they vnto him, What shall we doe, that we might worke the workes of God?

(GNT) eipon oun prov auton ti sbapoiwmen tpoioumen ina ergazwmeqa ta erga tou qeou

(HCSB) "What can we do to perform the works of God?" they asked.

(HOT)



(KJV+) Then3767 said2036 they unto4314 him,846 What5101 shall we do,4160 that2443 we might work2038 the3588 works2041 of God?2316

(KJVA) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

(NASB) Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

(RSVA) Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"

(Vulgate) dixerunt ergo ad eum quid faciemus ut operemur opera Dei

(YLT) They said therefore unto him, `What may we do that we may work the works of God?'

Again from the Greek:

Joh 6:28 eipon oun prov auton ti sbapoiwmen tpoioumen ina ergazwmeqa ta erga tou qeou

You my friend have a really really bad translation on your hands.

Peace to u,

Bill

[seekingpurity047]

Accepting Christ, or believing in Him, did that work pay our debt.

No it didn't, so it is still the work of the cross that saved us.

If i give you something I made, and you accepted it. Would you say look what my hands have made?

All praise, boosting, and glorifying goes to the one who did the work, not to the one who accepted the gift.



John 6:27-29




27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."


28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

There was this worker who wanted to work for a farmer. So He ask the one in charge of the work, What is the work of the farmer. The one in Charge said the work of the farmer is to pull weeds. So if He wanted to work for the farmer, He had to pull weeds. He has a choice He can walk away and not pull weeds, or he can pull weeds. It is still the work of the farmer.

Yah, I agree wth bill on this one. Translation = faulty.

Where the crap do you get that believing is the work of the "farmer" in this verse? You are making absolutely no sense at all.

Ya know what... i think YOUR doctrines are more man centered than any other doctrine ever thought of. What does God do, then? According to you, nothing. He is no longer active; He is no longer sovereign. You deny scripture in your own words. No proof and no logic. The elect are the twelve, and ONLY the twelve? Think again.

Romans 9:10-13

10And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Is Jacob part of the elect? According to you... no. According to you, only the twelve are part of the elect.

Yet again, you are missing everything.

Who are the messengers of God? You will say "The twelve". Well... that's illogical. I guess we all better stop spreading the gospel becuase we don't have to... since we are not called to be messengers of God.

Acts 16:10

10And when Paul[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=16&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=47&context=context#fen-ESV-27476a)] had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

Woah woah woah! Who wrote the book of acts? We all know that Luke did. Who was Luke? A greek, a GENTILE. Was Luke part of the elect? According to you, no. But why in the world would God call him and Paul to preach the gospel? You just finished saying that the twelve are the ones who are the messengers of God. This would not include Luke. But Luke was also called to be a messenger of God. Hence, Luke is part of the elect. Your responses are just sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo illogical and unbiblical. What you are saying is that we don't have to spread the gospel. Shame on you!

Unreformed by the truth? No. Unreformed by ignorance is more like it.

Randy

[tigersnare]

Unreformed by the truth? No. Unreformed by ignorance is more like it.

Randy

Would you like the "Angry Young Calvinsist" label now? ;)

[seekingpurity047]

Would you like the "Angry Young Calvinsist" label now? ;)

Hahha... sorry tiger... it's just that... gah! How can you not see that there is but on category of true believers?

It gets on my nerves that.... he's totally contradicting himself with every sentence he types.

Randy

[Unreformedbythetruth]

No, It is believing in God and His message that God loved the world.
They simple asked Jesus what is the work of God that they should do, and Jesus simple aswered the work of God is to believe in the one He sent. It is still the work that was given to them to do from God.

Maybe it is you who missunderstand the scripture remember.

Just because I do not see it they way you do, does not mean that I am wrong.

Lets talk this out like gentelmen, not like brood of vipers please. There is no reason to call my understanding ignorance. It might be you who is wrong.


What you can say about me, can also be said about.

Mathew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Before the cross, God made a lot to happen to bring Christ. Loved this person hated others. Used Pharoah and what ever you may say. O.k. In order to make the path that Christ was comming down.The world had no way before Jesus, but to believe in the one promised to come who will crush the serpents head, and It will strike the one's comming heel.

After the cross He opened the door for the world.

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Let me see you want to also to change that scripture to fit your doctrine.

[Unreformedbythetruth]

The only way that man can save themselves is to never of sinned, but all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

The result of sin is death, so it not the work that we have done that saved us, but the work God did on the cross through Jesus Christ that saved us.

To believe and trust Jesus, is believing in His work for our salvation, not our's.

He believed God and it was credit to Him as righteousness

[seekingpurity047]

No, It is believing in God and His message that God loved the world.
They simple asked Jesus what is the work of God that they should do, and Jesus simple aswered the work of God is to believe in the one He sent. It is still the work that was given to them to do from God.

Maybe it is you who missunderstand the scripture remember.

Just because I do not see it they way you do, does not mean that I am wrong.

Lets talk this out like gentelmen, not like brood of vipers please. There is no reason to call my understanding ignorance. It might be you who is wrong.


What you can say about me, can also be said about.

Mathew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Before the cross, God made a lot to happen to bring Christ. Loved this person hated others. Used Pharoah and what ever you may say. O.k. In order to make the path that Christ was comming down.The world had no way before Jesus, but to believe in the one promised to come who will crush the serpents head, and It will strike the one's comming heel.

After the cross He opened the door for the world.

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Let me see you want to also to change that scripture to fit your doctrine.

John 3:18

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Use context.

Second of all: You said that faith is a work, then you said that faith is not a work. You confirm that we have to do a work in order to be saved. That work being coming to faith. Impossible, for man cannot do anything good, and for this, you cannot deny scripture.

Psalm 14:1-3

1 The fool [a (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-14082a)] says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.



2 The LORD looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.

3 All have turned aside,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

Is there any man who does good? Well... according to David, totally inspired by the Holy Spirit, man can't do anything good. There is no work that man can do that is good. Hence, if faith is good, man cannot do it by his own power. Want more scripture toi back it up? Ok!

Psalm 53:1-3

1 The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;
there is no one who does good.


2 God looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God. 3 Everyone has turned away,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

This is so crucial that David ended up writing two psalms about it. Wow... shocking! More? Ok.

Romans 3:9-18

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27986b)]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27989c)]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27990d)]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27990e)]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27991f)]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27994g)]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27995h)]

Well... if man is totally depraved, how does one come to believe? O man! That God may present His irresistable grace upon thee!

Romans 3:22-26

22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28002i)] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

There is only one category of believers in Jesus' eyes, and that being His sheep. For whom did Jesus die for?

John 10:11

11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Jesus laid down His life for a specific group of people, notably, His sheep. His flock. Believers to come.

John 10:14-16

14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Jesus died for the flock. His sheep. Who are His sheep? Those whom the Father predestined to be sheep.

Romans 8:28-30

28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=28&end_verse=30&version=47&context=context#fen-ESV-28125a)] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-10

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined us[b (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201;&version=47;#fen-ESV-29191b)] for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known[c (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201;&version=47;#fen-ESV-29195c)] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Don't forget v 11-14

11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee[d (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201;&version=47;#fen-ESV-29200d)] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201;&version=47;#fen-ESV-29200e)] to the praise of his glory.

Romans 1:7

7To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.



God calls some to be saints... interesting....



And I can go on and on and on.... There is just sooo much. I just don't have time right now... back to working on an essay.



Later gator,

Randy

[Seaioth]

Someone needs to read up on unconditional election... =p I can't even follow the argument from here... this is like a soccer team playing against a basketball team >_<

[seekingpurity047]

To add to my response:

Romans 9:14-18

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[a (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209:14-18&version=31#fen-NIV-28156a)] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[b (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209:14-18&version=31#fen-NIV-28158b)] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Randy

[Unreformedbythetruth]

I praise God for the scripture you gave to let us know our God and the love He has shown to the world through Jesus Christ.

Not one of us is righteous, no one had seeked after God and we are good for nothing, that is the flesh

So what did God do He seeked us through His Son Jesus Christ, and made us the messengers of it.

Jesus came into His own and His own accepted Him not. They were His sheep, but they did not accept Him.

So what did Jesus say He would do. If you deny me on earth, I will deny you in heaven. Jesus did exactly what He said He would do, He denied His sheep, because they denied Him.

Believing is a responsibility of man, but it is what Jesus Christ did on the cross that saved them. It is pretty simple to me. All praise, glory, boosting goes to Jesus, because it was His work that saved us.

I believe in all the scripture of the predestined elect. I have no problem with that, but He also included with them those who heard the Gospel of there savation having believed were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

The world has a hope through Jesus Christ, even if you don't believe it.

1 Timothy 2

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

[frumanchu]

Romans 11:17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Doesn't it show that even the elect of God can be cut out for unbelief!!!
Actually, it shows a continuity between the covenants of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. God has one people for all time. Those who place themselves in covenant with Him but do not possess faith will be cut off.

[reformedfan]

Either Christ's blood actually saves, or Christ's blood + my good works (acceptance of the gift) does the trick. Either we are saved by Grace, through faith: (which is a gift from God) or we are actually ultimately saved by some conscious act that we do (receive Christ, accept the gift)

you sound familiar, so does yer familiar username...

[Unreformedbythetruth]

The warning of work is the work of the law, not what Jesus gives, which we draw near to God.

That is the new hope.

Paul was not teaching against what Jesus taught that we must believe.

See after people believed, they were leading men back to the Law which braught death.

Obeying the Law was only work for salvation, but all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

So it is a gift of God for salvation, because we didn't have to pay our debt, but to believe in the one who did. If you pay your debt then you can say you worked for your salvation, So the only hope you have is Jesus. a free gift, any gift free or not, you have to accept. You didn't make the gift, so you didn't work for your salvation.

You are confusing belief with the work of the Law.

Paul audience in His letters was believers, so he didn't have to tell them to believe, they already did.

Our belief comes from God through the scripture.

So what we believe is given to us by God, but it is our choice to believe in it or not.

[GLJCA]

Actually, it shows a continuity between the covenants of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. God has one people for all time. Those who place themselves in covenant with Him but do not possess faith will be cut off.

Awesome answer!!

[GLJCA]

The warning of work is the work of the law, not what Jesus gives, which we draw near to God.


Unreformed,

I don't want to offend you or anything like that but I have to ask, is English your first language? I have been noticing your sentence structure and conjugation of verbs and it seems that maybe you are just having a hard time putting your thoughts into words in English. I lived 13 years in another country so I know what it is like trying to put thoughts together in a second language.

GLJCA

[hlaltimus]

One must distinguish between God's eternal elect people and his national elect people, the Jews. The Lord chose and called this national elect people out of the loins of Abraham to be a nation, out of which nation some proved to be his eternal elect and some didn't. The case of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 aught to prove this beyond dispute. Both of those men were still Jewish descendants and as such received the privilege of at least exposure to the revelation of the Word of God and then other associate privileges. However Paul, (then Saul,) confessed that he had all of that in his testimony in Philippians 3 and was never-the-less without a relationship to the Messiah. Being a member of the national elect people of the Jews imparted privileges in time, while being a member of God's eternal elect imparts privileges both in time and in eternity.