A gospel we are afraid to preach....

[StormyOne]

When Jesus spoke of being lifted up on the cross he said "I, if I be lifted up will draw.." - he didn't say "I will draw some" - he said "I, if I be lifted up will draw ALL - draw all to me to hold them" all of us drawn into the divine embrace that excludes no-one - black, yellow, white, rich, poor, educated, uneducated, male, female, young, old, gay, lesbian, so-called straight - yes it IS radical. All, all, ALL belong - Arafat, Sharon, Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, George Bush, Tony Blair, Palestinian, Israeli, Jew, Arab, Protestant, Catholic - all, ALL, all belong in this family.

And in a healthy family the rule is from each according to their ability, for each according to their need. And so if we are serious about being family we would not spend obscene amounts on budgets of death and destruction, when we know a small fraction of those budgets would enable our sisters and brothers - members of our family - God's family, God's children - EVERYWHERE - they would have enough to eat, clean water to drink, adequate health care, education.

Go and tell my brothers. Go and tell my family. We are all, all family God's family. The human family.
An excerpt from a sermon by Bishop Desmond Tutu

http://www.heureka.clara.net/books/tutu-sermon.htm

Why don't we want to preach that?

[Vaudois]

Because Bishop Tutu is preaching a "if you are simply a human you are God's family" concept.

It overlooks the second birth: only when we are rescued from Satan's family to Christ's are actually enfolded into God's Family. Before that, you are a hostage, willing or not.

[StormyOne]

Because Bishop Tutu is preaching a "if you are simply a human you are God's family" concept.

It overlooks the second birth: only when we are rescued from Satan's family to Christ's are actually enfolded into God's Family. Before that, you are a hostage, willing or not.
I disagree... Satan didn't create anyone... only God did, in fact, let's be frank, even satan is God's child....So we are ALL His... we all belong to God.... before and after being born again....

[Olikamay]

I disagree... Satan didn't create anyone... only God did, in fact, let's be frank, even satan is God's child....So we are ALL His... we all belong to God.... before and after being born again....

I see that you disagree not only with Vaudois , but also with Jesus Himself. All may have been created by God, but all are not His children, the second birth IS what it's all about.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Olikamay

[payattention]

I see that you disagree not only with Vaudois , but also with Jesus Himself. All may have been created by God, but all are not His children, the second birth IS what it's all about.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


OlikamayThis is what happens when we ignore the truth about what the Bible represents. Jesus' statements must be interpreted in context of the entire history of the universe. If you do that it becomes evident that He was merely responding to the fact that these people were acting as if their father was the devil. Incidentally, modern man is in pretty much the same situation. God has never disowned His creation. We should resist the urge to use Christ's statements to discount the truth of Creation.

[Vaudois]

I see that you disagree not only with Vaudois , but also with Jesus Himself. All may have been created by God, but all are not His children, the second birth IS what it's all about.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Olikamay

Spot on, Olikamay; that is Jesus' point to the Jews in that Text you qoted. Physical birth means nothing; being born of the Spirit means everything. Hence bloodlines, even all the way back to Adam, are all common; but being actually washed in the Blood of Christ is the only trully Un-common act that adopts us back into God's Family.:groupray:

However this does not mean that the redeemed are not to act as Good Samaritans to all people; but to blur the lines between those lead by Christ and those lead by His enemy, even for the sake of a false sense of "universality", is rather contradictory, IMHO.:confused:

[payattention]

but to blur the lines between those lead by Christ and those lead by His enemy, even for the sake of a false sense of "universality", is rather contradictory, IMHO.:confused:You misunderstand. Your son is still your son even when he has embarrassed the entire family. Read again the story of the prodigal son. Even in the pig pen he was still his father's son. He did not understand that but the father made certain he did not forget it. The drug addict in the gutter that you turn your nose up at is your brother, not a case study.

[Vaudois]

Let's be frank, payattention:

1. How many junkies (or on the other end of the scale, just plain nonchristians) have you been "brotherly" to this year? How many have you housed, fed and clothed...directly? One is plenty.

2. How many non-internet South Africans of colour are your friends? How much direct knowledge of conditions in SA do you have? How much do you actually know of the political agendas of SA priests?

3. Why didn't Christ say " like your leader/teacher/mentor the devil" OR " you act as if the devil was your father"? It appears you are putting the Gnostic spin on this question.

4. Creation is God's ability. Loyalty to Him is our choice. We stand under God's banner or Satan's by choice, not birth. Whether we take our stand ignorantly,arrogantly or humbly is still our choice.

[Vaudois]

To clarify: All are born sons of Adam, the Man: our heart choices indicate who are spiritual father is. This is why Jesus was also the Son of Man.

[payattention]

Let's be frank, payattention:

1. How many junkies (or on the other end of the scale, just plain nonchristians) have you been "brotherly" to this year? How many have you housed, fed and clothed...directly? One is plenty.

How does this question support your position? I get very sceptical of people who resort to tactics such as these when they find themselves painted in a corner. If you can't discuss honorably, don't.

2. How many non-internet South Africans of colour are your friends? How much direct knowledge of conditions in SA do you have? How much do you actually know of the political agendas of SA priests?

Same question as above. And what does South Africa have to do with this? You must be in South Africa. Incidentally, I will be meeting with two of my friends from Botswana tomorrow.

3. Why didn't Christ say " like your leader/teacher/mentor the devil" OR " you act as if the devil was your father"? It appears you are putting the Gnostic spin on this question.

Only to the extent that this is what you do if you refuse to believe that when we die people in hell can engage in conversation with people in heaven and that everybody in heaven can fit in Abraham's bosom.

4. Creation is God's ability. Loyalty to Him is our choice. We stand under God's banner or Satan's by choice, not birth. Whether we take our stand ignorantly,arrogantly or humbly is still our choice.That does not say we are not his children.

[Vaudois]

I do not question God's love for His creation; John 3:16,17.
I question God's humanly imposed "blindness" as to who love and serve Him. To assume that position by birth equates with position by repentence makes the Prodigal Son parable a a fairy tale, a Disney-ish platitude.

Yes...position with Christ decides one's fate, not words, bloodline, intellect, money, wit or assent to a creed.

Otherwise, being born again means zip.

[tall73]

This thread is dying to be reposted in the main forum so we can all debate. I assume at this point it is being done in violation of the rules.

We have started this debate a few times...what is our original state?


I went ahead and put the topic in the main forum so we can all debate:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2187569-what-is-our-default-condition-in-regards-to-salvation.html

[Vaudois]

How does this question support your position? I get very sceptical of people who resort to tactics such as these when they find themselves painted in a corner. If you can't discuss honorably, don't.

Same question as above. And what does South Africa have to do with this? You must be in South Africa. Incidentally, I will be meeting with two of my friends from Botswana tomorrow.

Only to the extent that this is what you do if you refuse to believe that when we die people in hell can engage in conversation with people in heaven and that everybody in heaven can fit in Abraham's bosom.
That does not say we are not his children.

"Tactics"? Asking a practical christian-fruit question you call a tactic? hmmmmm...

The original thread quotes the SA bishop, Demond Tutu and his "all of us are God's family" theory. That is why I brought up S.Africa's spiritual spokesman. While you visit with your Botswanian friends, ask them if they consider their nation and SA the same country. Ask them how they feel about Tutu.

No I do not live in S. Africa or anywhere near there; but my best friends are, and I have learned alot from them about "politicized priests", Noble winners or not. They are not white. They suffered greatly under apartheid.

"If you can't discuss honorably, don't."

I suppose this is your invitation to not discuss with you anything, therefore I will not, as per your request.

[tall73]

Naw, he doesn't mind discussion actually, but let us please avoid debate in these newly established forums.

There is a suitable topic for this discussion in the main area now. A quick review of recent posts would show that this new area is to avoid the kind of labelling and fighting we have had in the past. So let us honor this agreement and limit this kind of debate to the main forum.

[payattention]

"Tactics"? Asking a practical christian-fruit question you call a tactic? hmmmmm...
No one will object should you decide to lay before us the record of your practical christian-fruit. When you obtain ownership of the keys into the kingdom you can begin asking me for my right to entry.

[Kolya]

[QUOTE=Vaudois

The original thread quotes the SA bishop, Demond Tutu and his "all of us are God's family" theory. That is why I brought up S.Africa's spiritual spokesman. While you visit with your Botswanian friends, ask them if they consider their nation and SA the same country. Ask them how they feel about Tutu.

No I do not live in S. Africa or anywhere near there; but my best friends are, and I have learned alot from them about "politicized priests", Noble winners or not. They are not white. They suffered greatly under apartheid.

[/QUOTE]

Look at my flag! I still don't understand what this has to do with S Africa or Politics. Who preached the sermon is irrelevant. It could have been Billy Graham for all I care. It is the content that matters. That is all I wll say here, lets move this to :http://www.christianforums.com/t218...-salvation.html

[Vaudois]

A social Gospel by a man (who happens to be S.African or not)who has a social-political agenda (his awarded specialty) is my concern. Ceasar and God must stay seperate in our minds.

If the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Metropolitanus of Armenia or the Grand Mufti of Amman had said those words, my concerns would have been the same. Who said it IS important, in this case. His power over minds is strong.

This quote seems to me to be a "goody goody" sentiment that whitewashs the need for salvation for all humans.

To preach that every human is already in God's Family is insanely unbiblical.

All can be, could be, God wants them to be and I pray they will be....BUT they are NOT there yet.

Spot on, Olikamay; that is Jesus' point to the Jews in that Text you qoted. Physical birth means nothing; being born of the Spirit means everything. Hence bloodlines, even all the way back to Adam, are all common; but being actually washed in the Blood of Christ is the only trully Un-common act that adopts us back into God's Family.:groupray:

However this does not mean that the redeemed are not to act as Good Samaritans to all people; but to blur the lines between those lead by Christ and those lead by His enemy, even for the sake of a false sense of "universality", is rather contradictory, IMHO.:confused:

[HoneyDew]

Can Satan create any human beings? Is the act of creating solely for the God? If so, then we are His children. All. We have been led astray. We have been conditioned to think that we belong to the Accuser. We act like we belong to Darkness, but we are all the children of the King. When we are aware of the deception and come forth into the light of the God of Love, then we are free from that deception.

[StormyOne]

A social Gospel by a man (who happens to be S.African or not)who has a social-political agenda (his awarded specialty) is my concern. Ceasar and God must stay seperate in our minds.

If the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Metropolitanus of Armenia or the Grand Mufti of Amman had said those words, my concerns would have been the same. Who said it IS important, in this case. His power over minds is strong.

This quote seems to me to be a "goody goody" sentiment that whitewashs the need for salvation for all humans.

To preach that every human is already in God's Family is insanely unbiblical.

All can be, could be, God wants them to be and I pray they will be....BUT they are NOT there yet.

Thanks for your response.... I disagree totally with your post...nor do I particularly think it is christlike to suggest someone is insane... unless you are a psychiatrist and are submitting an assessment of that person's mental status..... Truth is truth whoever says it....Ceasar and God can stay separate in your mind, and that is not even the issue.....

Bottomline for me, everything that God created belongs to Him. We have no problem saying that "the cattle on a thousand hills" belong to Him, but cannot fathom people scattered throughout the earth belonging to Him....

[Vaudois]

"Belonging" for cattle is quite different than free moral agents choosing who is their spiritual father.

Please explain:

"Their works testified of their relationship to him who was a liar and a murderer. "Ye are of your father the devil," said Jesus, "and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stood not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. . . . Because I say the truth, ye believe Me not." John 8:44, 45, R. V. The fact that Jesus spoke the truth, and that with certainty, was why He was not received by the Jewish leaders. It was the truth that offended these self-righteous men. The truth exposed the fallacy of error; it condemned their teaching and practice, and it was unwelcome. They would rather close their eyes to the truth than humble themselves to confess that they had been in error. They did not love the truth. They did not desire it, even though it was truth."

Our works determine who is our father, not our physical birthing process.

To say "that is an insane idea" does not mean the speaker is mentally inbalanced. If I say that you have a "heavenly personality", that does not mean you are there in heaven yet.

[HoneyDew]

@Vaudois: tell me about a newborn child, born into an Adventist home. To whom does that child belong? God or Satan?

[Vaudois]

Does a baby have free will yet?

[HoneyDew]

When do you submit that freewill comes to the human?

[Vaudois]

No particularlly set times; whenever conscience is violated or obeyed in a morally testing situation. When either rebellion or obedience is chosen. But this must be a repeated choice, as fallen man is given much mercy. Christ has been here; He knows what we are going through through our growing up, whether unto Him or unto Self and Satan.

[StormyOne]

"Belonging" for cattle is quite different than free moral agents choosing who is their spiritual father.

Please explain:

"Their works testified of their relationship to him who was a liar and a murderer. "Ye are of your father the devil," said Jesus, "and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stood not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. . . . Because I say the truth, ye believe Me not." John 8:44, 45, R. V. The fact that Jesus spoke the truth, and that with certainty, was why He was not received by the Jewish leaders. It was the truth that offended these self-righteous men. The truth exposed the fallacy of error; it condemned their teaching and practice, and it was unwelcome. They would rather close their eyes to the truth than humble themselves to confess that they had been in error. They did not love the truth. They did not desire it, even though it was truth."

Our works determine who is our father, not our physical birthing process.

To say "that is an insane idea" does not mean the speaker is mentally inbalanced. If I say that you have a "heavenly personality", that does not mean you are there in heaven yet.

You have jokes... I still disagree.... do you have kids? Regardless of your childs behavior good or bad, they are yours... you may not want to claim them but they are yours.... so your premise that our "works" determine who is our parent in my opinion is flawed.... we have no works. All of our works are as filthy rags or are you overlooking that fact...if we were dependent on them then we are in serious trouble....

I maintain that The Creator created us, and we belong to him... who does lucifer belong to? God, because God created him too.... so I have no problem saying that all creation belongs to God.... so I guess we are done here... you will not convince me that all do not belong to God nor will you be convinced that all do.... moving on....

[Vaudois]

Notice EGW grammer closely, Honeydew:

"Christ placed such a high estimate upon your children that He gave His life for them. Treat them as the purchase of His blood. Patiently and firmly train them for Him. Discipline with love and forbearance. As you do this, they will become a crown of rejoicing to you and will shine as lights in the world.
The youngest child that loves and fears God is greater in His sight than the most talented and learned man who neglects the great salvation. The youth who consecrate their hearts and lives to God have, in so doing, placed themselves in connection with the Fountain of all wisdom and excellence. {AH 279.2}

Nothing about automatic ownership here. Cows, birds and fish are automatically owned, but free moral agents must choose, when they become free to be morally responsible.

Oh... and being born into a Christian family is a great advantage, if parents are trully born again, and not relying on Church membership.

It's a opportunity not a birthright.

Jacob had to learn that the hard way!

[StormyOne]

Notice EGW grammer closely, Honeydew:

"Christ placed such a high estimate upon your children that He gave His life for them. Treat them as the purchase of His blood. Patiently and firmly train them for Him. Discipline with love and forbearance. As you do this, they will become a crown of rejoicing to you and will shine as lights in the world.
The youngest child that loves and fears God is greater in His sight than the most talented and learned man who neglects the great salvation. The youth who consecrate their hearts and lives to God have, in so doing, placed themselves in connection with the Fountain of all wisdom and excellence. {AH 279.2}

Nothing about automatic ownership here. Cows, birds and fish are automatically owned, but free moral agents must choose, when they become free to be morally responsible.

Oh... and being born into a Christian family is a great advantage, if parents are trully born again, and not relying on Church membership.

It's a opportunity not a birthright.

Jacob had to learn that the hard way!

I disagree still (even though this wasn't addressed to me) and EGW was never wrong? We have to choose NOT to be His, because He is making every effort to remind us, awaken us to the fact that we are His... We are His and we don't realize it. Probably because we have bought into the idea that we aren't His until we choose.... that idea I am sure did not originate with God... probably started in the minds of religious leaders and was passed on as "truth" though it is the tradition of men....

[HoneyDew]

@Vaudois: If that newborn baby died, Vaudois, what happens to him/her? Is that child consigned to eternal damnation or life?
None of us mortals breathe one breath without God. If we are not His, but the devil's, why are we alive? Can Satan keep us living?
We are God's children. We were kidnapped and brainwashed, but His loving act redeems us. We are His before we were born and we have to chose to belong to the Accuser.
EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are. She had vision, but she also was bound by the knowledge of her day. All of us are, prophets or not.

God is Love.

[HoneyDew]

@Vaudois: I noted the EGW grammar.
If that newborn baby died, Vaudois, what happens to him/her? Is that child consigned to eternal damnation or life?
None of us mortals breathe one breath without God. If we are not His, but the devil's, why are we alive? Can Satan keep us living?
We are God's children. We were kidnapped and brainwashed, but His loving act redeems us. We are His before we were born and we have to chose to belong to the Accuser.
EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are. She had vision, but she also was bound by the knowledge of her day. All of us are, prophets or not.

God is Love.

[Vaudois]

Honeydew: You said "EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are."

Are you including yourself in this "More advanced then a Messenger of God" group?

Can you tell me who is more advanced? Names?


Again: a baby is not an activated free moral agent yet. Therefore they are innocent until tried. Therefore they will be given life again at the resurrection. Then their education will begin....and education 1000 years long and with no "death, sin or sickness" around to hamper them.

However, the Bible facts state:

We are all born in a condition of bondage to sin in this manner:

We are born in prison to the slavery our human race finds itself in; the love of self and error. Jesus came to break the bonds, not rationalize them away. All inherit a weakened human state, which has a relish for selfishness first and love for God and truth way down the list of priorities.

[StormyOne]

Honeydew: You said "EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are."

Are you including yourself in this "More advanced then a Messenger of God" group?

Can you tell me who is more advanced? Names?


Again: a baby is not an activated free moral agent yet. Therefore they are innocent until tried. Therefore they will be given life again at the resurrection. Then their education will begin....and education 1000 years long and with no "death, sin or sickness" around to hamper them.

However, the Bible facts state:

We are all born in a condition of bondage to sin in this manner:

We are born in prison to the slavery our human race finds itself in; the love of self and error. Jesus came to break the bonds, not rationalize them away. All inherit a weakened human state, which has a relish for selfishness first and love for God and truth way down the list of priorities.
you miss the main point or refuse to believe it... we belong to Him... we start out that way, and He does everything He can to help us understand that we belong to Him... He attempts to convince us that through Him we have been emancipated....

[HoneyDew]

Honeydew: You said "EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are."

Are you including yourself in this "More advanced then a Messenger of God" group?

Can you tell me who is more advanced? Names?




Somehow I missed this reply yesterday. LOL

Vaudois, simply go to some recent threads -- you will see the exchange between members. I believe it was Tall and Woobadooba, if I am not mistaken. Both made some valid points in my opinion, regarding the theologically correctness in some instances of the Adventist pioneers and how they grew in understanding. I am sure we in 2005 have grown even more now. Learning is not stagnant.
I am not going to telling who is more advanced than whom. That is not my concern and never will be. I am more concerned about my walk with Christ. That is all. :)


Peace

[Vaudois]

"Pioneers" and the Lord's Messenger (EGW) are not the same persons, functions or servants of Christ in office .

Pioneers cannot be compared with the Spirit of Prophecy, due to Who was chosing to instruct whom directly. It is His call, not some evolutionary intellectual process.

You specifically declared ""EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are."

I am surprised that you are not willing to share with others whom you consider more theologically advanced the EGW... OR the Pioneers.
Is this a secret club?
Are you saving this knowledge for friends?
Can you at least invite these great sages to this forum to shed this wonderous knowledge to the darkened corners of this forum....please?

[Vaudois]

Advancing light never comes at the cost of downgrading those whom God has appointed for a Task.

If in your eyes, EGW was not a Messenger of God, than...that's your trip.

[StormyOne]

Advancing light never comes at the cost of downgrading those whom God has appointed for a Task.

If in your eyes, EGW was not a Messenger of God, than...that's your trip.
Vaudois,
That statement does a disservice to egw, for if one looks at the things she wrote as a young woman, then compare those things she wrote as she was a much older woman one will notice growth in her understanding about God, and what God would have her do... She did not know "everything" about God, nor did God give her instant and complete knowledge about who He was...

Had she lived longer you would no doubt seen more growth and understanding...

[HoneyDew]

"Pioneers" and the Lord's Messenger (EGW) are not the same persons, functions or servants of Christ in office .

Pioneers cannot be compared with the Spirit of Prophecy, due to Who was chosing to instruct whom directly. It is His call, not some evolutionary intellectual process.

You specifically declared ""EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are."

I am surprised that you are not willing to share with others whom you consider more theologically advanced the EGW... OR the Pioneers.
Is this a secret club?
Are you saving this knowledge for friends?
Can you at least invite these great sages to this forum to shed this wonderous knowledge to the darkened corners of this forum....please?

You are being insulting. Kindly understand that I am not getting into a debate with you regarding the validity of anyone or anything. Kindly understand that you are assuming quite a lot about me and my intentions and I would rather you did not.
I am not in the mood to spar. If you wish to invite great sages to this forum, be my guest. It is neither here nor there.

[HoneyDew]

Advancing light never comes at the cost of downgrading those whom God has appointed for a Task.

If in your eyes, EGW was not a Messenger of God, than...that's your trip.

You should take the time to ask instead of reacting to a non-issue. The assumptions are broad reaching. Be careful that you don't do a disservice when assuming.
I am very much through with this.

[HoneyDew]

Vaudois,
That statement does a disservice to egw, for if one looks at the things she wrote as a young woman, then compare those things she wrote as she was a much older woman one will notice growth in her understanding about God, and what God would have her do... She did not know "everything" about God, nor did God give her instant and complete knowledge about He was...

Had she lived longer you would no doubt seen more growth and understanding...

Could you repeat that? :thumbsup:

[Vaudois]

Take the time to ask? I 've asked 7 questions in the past 2 days...No answers.

Claims have been made about "advanced theology", superior to EGW...no proof has been offered...

You have been "insulted"?? Misunderstood?

I rather think it is Inspiration that has been maligned, not the Honeydew.

I ask that YOU bring these "sages" of advanced wisdom here to help this forum, not that I had any.

If you are "through"before any starting of evidence to your claims, that that is sad and your right, of course.

Who knows what we may have missed in this advocation of "advanced" and current wisdom.

Bye...

[HoneyDew]

That statement does a disservice to egw, for if one looks at the things she wrote as a young woman, then compare those things she wrote as she was a much older woman one will notice growth in her understanding about God, and what God would have her do... She did not know "everything" about God, nor did God give her instant and complete knowledge about who He was...

Had she lived longer you would no doubt seen more growth and understanding...


Hey Storm, when you have some time, could you share with me examples of those comparisons? I wanted to send some to Kari. Thanks, dude.

[BondGirl]

Can Satan create any human beings? Is the act of creating solely for the God? If so, then we are His children. All. We have been led astray. We have been conditioned to think that we belong to the Accuser. We act like we belong to Darkness, but we are all the children of the King. When we are aware of the deception and come forth into the light of the God of Love, then we are free from that deception.

We tend to forget that even GOD created Satan. Although he "fell" to sin - his heart; he was still a creation of GOD. GOD did not create the sin, he did however create the "Free Will" to decide.

If you have a child, and they become a murderer - that doesn't mean that you love the crime they do. You may hate the crime, but your child - you still love. Because after all - they are still your child.....

Then again - maybe some of you would put your own children away....

:doh:

[Vaudois]

"Then again - maybe some of you would put your own children away...."

I see two types of fatherhood in the Bible: Creation and Education.
Eli, the high priest, failed in the education of his children, and Satan lead them into horrific habits. Eli's trust on his being his drunk kids father (creation) did not prevent the results (death) of his drunk kids under the education of Satan.
The spirtual overrules the carnal. "Jesus said to the satanical educated religious Pharisees "Ye are of your father the devil, and his works you do." John 8:44

Who is the father to thse who "must be born again?" Christ! Does loyalty to Christ in re-creation not over rule that of mere birthing?

[StormyOne]

care to revisit this one?

[moicherie]

care to revisit this one?
Sorry Clay we can revisit but the separatists attitude expressed here is the reason why racism flourishes in the church, Christians have an us and them mentality so refuse to see non Christians as part of them.

[StormyOne]

Sorry Clay we can revisit but the separatists attitude expressed here is the reason why racism flourishes in the church, Christians have an us and them mentality so refuse to see non Christians as part of them.
ahhh well..... :(