Mosaic and Rabbinical?

[stone]

What are the differrences from Mosaic and Rabbinical Torah?

[chokmah]

What are the differrences from Mosaic and Rabbinical Torah?
What are your definitions of the two?

[simchat_torah]

I think that's what they are asking, lol.

I'm not aware of any differences?

[chokmah]

I think that's what they are asking, lol.

I'm not aware of any differences?
Oh...

me neither. :D

[visionary]

no wonder you are called the thread killer..... no differences.... between what the bible says...Mosaic.... and rabbidical...volumes of commentaries by rabbis.

[Bruce101]

Eating a cheeseburger a sin. Rabbinical
Not eating a kid (baby goat) seethed in it's mothers milk, Mosaic, Bible.
Not mixing diary and meat (Rabbinical) is derived from the goat sin (Mosaic), and not eating a cheeseburger is derived from the meat/diary sin.

Washing hands before meal, a rabbinical decree.
Eating bread, not a sin.
Eating bread, with dirty hands makes the bread unclean, like pork.
Again, this is Rabbinical.
Yeshua didn't like rules being added to the existing law already laid out by God.
Jesus and some of the Pharisees had it out with the washing of hands issue.

Bruce

[HaNotsri]

Eating a cheeseburger a sin. Rabbinical
Not eating a kid (baby goat) seethed in it's mothers milk, Mosaic, Bible.
Not mixing diary and meat (Rabbinical) is derived from the goat sin (Mosaic), and not eating a cheeseburger is derived from the meat/diary sin.

Washing hands before meal, a rabbinical decree.
Eating bread, not a sin.
Eating bread, with dirty hands makes the bread unclean, like pork.
Again, this is Rabbinical.
Yeshua didn't like rules being added to the existing law already laid out by God.
Jesus and some of the Pharisees had it out with the washing of hands issue.


In traditional Judaism there are two Toros: the Torah she'bik tav (the Written Torah) and the Torah she'bal peh (the Torah of the mouth or the Oral Torah). Both were given at matan Torah at Har Sinai. The Oral Torah was passed from Moses to Joshua to the Judges and down through the prophets and teachers of the time to Ezra and Nehemia and on to the men of the great assembly. It was transmitted orally. It wasn't codified until the couple of hundred years after the destruction of the Holy Temple and its codification was called the Mishnah (which is derived from the word that means "repitition"). It was codified by R' Yehudah haNasi (Rabbi Judah the Prince) and was done so as he saw the coming dispersion and feared the Torah tradition would be lost) and Jews wouldn't know how to observe their religion. Later a couple of schools of thought, the major and more authoritive one being in modern day Baghdad (Bavel or Babylon) and a lesser authoritive one being in Tiberias (on the Sea of Galilee), discussed major points of the Oral Torah as it related to the Torah and those discussions were codified into what became the Gemara. The Mishnah and Gemara together are called the Talmud. There is the Babylonian (Bavli) Talmud and the Jerusalem/Palestinian (Yerushalmi) Talmud.

From the Talmud and other commentaries, what became known as halacha evolved. The greater more accepted opinions in the Gemara became known as halacha and generally the Pharisaic school of Hillel is the tradition that was followed. It was the more liberal of the two schools of major Pharisaic thought (Hillel and Shammai). Halacha/Torah was brought down through the centuries into the Ramb"m's Mishneh Torah, Yosef Karo's Shulchan Aruch (which is where most halacha is derived from in my experiences), Kitsur Shulchan Aruch, continuing on down to Chafets Chaim's Mishnah Breurah.

Halacha and mitsvos are divided into two different categories: d'oraisa and d'rabbanan. D'oraisa means that a commandment or a piece of halacha is interpreted as being directly from the Bible/Tan"kh itself. D'rabbanan means that it is a rabbinical injunction and while it is important to follow, its transgression DOES NOT merit the same consequence as would violating a d'oraisa mitsvah. It is still important to follow poskening of rabbinical authorities. Rabbinical authority is seen coming from Tan"kh in Deuteronomy 17 it talks about listening to the judges and kings of your time.

Essentially what they're doing is building a fence of protection (sometimes to crazy levels) around the Torah (both written and oral) to prevent any sort of transgression of its commandments. They do it out of love for God for wanting to follow his word. Sometimes the intentions can seem a little foggy or legalistic, but the people in the community that I lived in had such yiras Shamayim (fear of Heaven/love for God) that what they really wanted to do was just serve Him. It was refreshing.

I personally do believe there is an Oral Torah and there is some creedance to rabbinical authority. I don't think Jesus was against that. Jesus was against hypocrisy and was against losing site of the commandment by getting lost in the traditions. Losing site of the spirit of the Torah and not becoming so legalistic. He did after say "do what the Pharisees say (Pharisees are the precursors to modern rabbinical Judaism) and not as they do (referring to hypocrisy among SOME [not all] of them)." I also think that Messianic Judaism is destined to fail as a movement if it doesn't organize either. That's the one thing that has kept the Jewish people alive for the past two thousand years is their ability to have a common theology (obviously that has changed in the last 200 years, but you know what I mean) and doctrine that have moved them through cross cultural situations. I appreciate the Messianic movement, but it needs to come together and identify itself and present itself as one thing not many like: dual covenant theology messianics, two-house theology messianics, Ortho-practic messianics, evangelical Christian messianics, etc. It needs to look like its own movement and not divide itself. I would personally prefer a more Ortho-practic Messianic movement...but most people would not be for that. I think also there needs to be a worldwide messianic response to all the cults that have arisen along with this movement.

Michael haNotsri

[chokmah]

I'm sorry, folks. I can only respond with questions and/or fellowship posts.

Feel free to bring these things up outside of CO.

[stone]

Do rabbi's not melt chese on meat in an oven?

[CovenantRay]

Do rabbi's not melt chese on meat in an oven?

Rhetorical humor, no?

CovenantRay :scratch:

[stone]

i just finished reading Michaels post, very nice and informative. thank you


the cheese thing is that i am trying to verify that there is such a thing as a difference in following this law, torah.

After reading Michaels response i'm curious if there is such a thing as these two seperate laws? in Israel?

I'm guessing that melting cheese on meat in not Mosaic, as opposed to rabbinical, and now i am curious if there were even ovens for such an act of melting cheese on meat to take place?

[talmidim]

i just finished reading Michaels post, very nice and informative. thank you


the cheese thing is that i am trying to verify that there is such a thing as a difference in following this law, torah.

After reading Michaels response i'm curious if there is such a thing as these two seperate laws? in Israel?

I'm guessing that melting cheese on meat in not Mosaic, as opposed to rabbinical, and now i am curious if there were even ovens for such an act of melting cheese on meat to take place?Hey stone,
Why yes there are, now that you mention it. One is called Dominoes. Then there is Pizza Hut and Pappa John's... :D Of course, none are what you would call kosher. :cool:

[rhyddid_rose]

To Life Immortal

NOTE: If this post is in the wrong place, let me know.

Reading these posts reminded me of my Conservative Judaism conversion classses. Rabbi Ira Stone in Philadelphia PA had/has a wonderful programme.

I remember when they told us about keeping kosher, we were told about not eating shellfish, pork and birds of prey, hence the post title. Our teacher had a good sense of humour.

I started observing kosher before I went to the mikvah. Because I was a poor college student who shared a kitchen with a non-Jewish person, I couldnt get 4 sets of dishes and cooking utensils. I became a vegetarian. When Pesach came around, I loaded up on matzot and gave away my bread and vodka and gave my part of the house a good cleaning.

I still dont eat pork, haven't in almost 20 years now. I wonder if there is an health advantage to keeping kosher?

I just thought of a question to ask. I'll start another thread.

[jgonz]

I see the difference between Mosaic and Rabbinical as the words of Moses written down (Torah) vs the words of rabbis written down (Rabbinical). That's probably too simplistic, but that's how I've described it to my children.

[Bruce101]

I personally do believe there is an Oral Torah and there is some creedance to rabbinical authority. I don't think Jesus was against that. Jesus was against hypocrisy and was against losing site of the commandment by getting lost in the traditions. Losing site of the spirit of the Torah and not becoming so legalistic. He did after say "do what the Pharisees say (Pharisees are the precursors to modern rabbinical Judaism) and not as they do (referring to hypocrisy among SOME [not all] of them)." I also think that Messianic Judaism is destined to fail as a movement if it doesn't organize either. That's the one thing that has kept the Jewish people alive for the past two thousand years is their ability to have a common theology (obviously that has changed in the last 200 years, but you know what I mean) and doctrine that have moved them through cross cultural situations. I appreciate the Messianic movement, but it needs to come together and identify itself and present itself as one thing not many like: dual covenant theology messianics, two-house theology messianics, Ortho-practic messianics, evangelical Christian messianics, etc. It needs to look like its own movement and not divide itself. I would personally prefer a more Ortho-practic Messianic movement...but most people would not be for that. I think also there needs to be a worldwide messianic response to all the cults that have arisen along with this movement.

I believe there is a lot of wisdom in the above statement.:thumbsup:

Bruce

[Adiel batKelev]

without an accepted community standard (rabbinic halakah) what develops is something which scripture soundly warns against: every man doing what seems right in his own eyes

[talmidim]

While this is a thread asking the difference between the Mosaic and Rabbinical, it has seriously missed the mark. Some have actually tried to address these issues and others have used it to get on their soap box about the "Messianic" movement. For me, few have addressed the core issues to any degree of satisfaction.


There is the debate about Rabbinical Judaism. How far has it strayed from the Spirit and the Torah?
There is the debate about written and oral Torah. How much authority do the traditions of man have?
There is the debate about the "Messianic" movement. Should it submit to a central authority?
This is my opinion in a nutshell. The covenant with man unfolded in seven parts, each time reiterating and clarifying the Word, each time adding back what man had stripped away and stripping away what man had added. It started with Adam and was then reiterated with Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Yeshua and finally all who would believe.

The words of Yeshua are the yardstick by which I measure all things. If there is an apparent conflict with the epistle of an Apostle, the instructions of Torah, the prophets, the history, the writings, I will keep my eyes on Him. In His revelation to the seven churches the Master told us many things. The things He revealed have to do with these very subjects we discuss here. Go back and read these lessons again with these questions in mind.

Did He say, "You have to convert to Judaism to be saved"? NO!
Did He say to the seven churches, "You have got to all come together under a central governing body"? NO!
Did He say, "You need to follow the cultural traditions and the fence laws of the Rabbis"? NO!
Did He say, "Its OK if you disregard some of my commandments"? NO!
What did the Master tell His churches? His Messianic congregations?

Ephesus Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. RETURN TO HIM
Smyrna Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. ENDURE TRIALS
Pergamos Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. KEEP HIS DOCTRINES AND REFUSE ALL AUTHORITY NOT OF THE FATHER
Thyatira Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. DO NOT BE SEDUCED BY THE FLESH OR FALSE DOCTRINES
Sardis I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy EVEN IN A DEAD CHURCH WITH BAD LEADERSHIP, THE INDIVIDUAL THAT IS FAITHFUL TO YESHUA'S WORD SHALL LIVE
Philadelphia Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. BE STRONG, KEEP HIS WORD, DO NOT DENY HIS NAME
YOU WANT TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE WRITTEN AND ORAL TORAH? I'LL GIVE IT TO YOU IN ONE WORD: YESHUA

[stone]

Hey stone,
Why yes there are, now that you mention it. One is called Dominoes. Then there is Pizza Hut and Pappa John's... :D Of course, none are what you would call kosher. :cool:

lol, ooops, seems i left out a small detail from the question, i meant, 2000 years ago, were there ovens?

and why wouldn't they be kosher today, the dominoes and papa johns, etc, if they didn't have any pork?

[Wags]

lol, ooops, seems i left out a small detail from the question, i meant, 2000 years ago, were there ovens?

and why wouldn't they be kosher today, the dominoes and papa johns, etc, if they didn't have any pork?

There are kosher pizza joints (mostly just in locations with a large enough jewish population to support them) and some even switch and server kosher for passover pizza. :thumbsup:

[CovenantRay]

There are kosher pizza joints (mostly just in locations with a large enough jewish population to support them) and some even switch and server kosher for passover pizza. :thumbsup:

I can attest that there are/were many in LA and NYC.

CovenantRay :prayer:

[talmidim]

lol, ooops, seems i left out a small detail from the question, i meant, 2000 years ago, were there ovens?

and why wouldn't they be kosher today, the dominoes and papa johns, etc, if they didn't have any pork?Well stone,

That brings up one of our favorite dead horses to beat, biblical kosher vs. rabbinical kosher. It seems that there are some small differences. http://www3.christianforums.com/images/mood/Happy.gif

[Adiel batKelev]

lol, ooops, seems i left out a small detail from the question, i meant, 2000 years ago, were there ovens?

and why wouldn't they be kosher today, the dominoes and papa johns, etc, if they didn't have any pork?pepperoni - even lacking that, the vast majority of cheeses are curdled/cured with rennet - and enzyme from a mammal's stomach - the cheapest and most often used is from porcine sources... unless a cheese is designated Kosher there is no way to know what the source of the rennet is....

[Bruce101]

pepperoni - even lacking that, the vast majority of cheeses are curdled/cured with rennet - and enzyme from a mammal's stomach - the cheapest and most often used is from porcine sources... unless a cheese is designated Kosher there is no way to know what the source of the rennet is....

I didn't know that.

Bruce

[Wags]

pepperoni - even lacking that, the vast majority of cheeses are curdled/cured with rennet - and enzyme from a mammal's stomach - the cheapest and most often used is from porcine sources... unless a cheese is designated Kosher there is no way to know what the source of the rennet is....

The major cheese makers around here would take issue with someone saying they use porcine as source of rennet. But then again they shut down to do a run of kosher cheese every month. :thumbsup:

You can email and ask any cheese manufacture for their source of rennet (just like asking for the source of Vit D - mostly it is a wool byproduct, but few dairys use a little piggy instead.) And of course vegetarian cheese uses vegetable rennet. So if you can't find "kosher" cheese that would be your next best bet.

[Vaneeza Malkah]

You can email and ask any cheese manufacture for their source of rennet (just like asking for the source of Vit D - mostly it is a wool byproduct, but few dairys use a little piggy instead.) And of course vegetarian cheese uses vegetable rennet. So if you can't find "kosher" cheese that would be your next best bet.


wool? I know wearing it is kosher as long as it's not mixed with linen, but eating it? Isn't that kind of like l-cystine (horse or human hair) that they actually put in food!

[Wags]

wool? I know wearing it is kosher as long as it's not mixed with linen, but eating it? Isn't that kind of like l-cystine (horse or human hair) that they actually put in food!

Vitamin D3:-

Reference: "This information is provided by Wegmans Supermarket, Rochester, NY. "

Vitamin D3 (normally found in milk): The Vit D3 is not derived from fish. Vitamin D3 is produced commercially by irradiating 7-dehydrocholesterol, the same found in human skin, only commercially it is extracted from lanolin (Sheep). Although lanolin is obtained by sheep, Vitamin D3 is considered Kosher and Parve because the sheep are not slaughtered to obtain the wool, from which the lanolin is extracted. The milk companies add vitamin D3 to help the body absorb calcium. This is a requirement by the laws that govern the milking industry. Whole milk does not have the vitamin destroyed in the processing therefore does not have the vitamin D3 added to it. Cream also does not have the added vitamin D3. The vitamin D3 is present in the milk naturally. When the milk fats are taken out in the processing to make fat free, 1%, 2% then the vitamin is destroyed and needs to be added back in.

[stone]

Does that book "Holy Cow" or however it goes, have all this stuff as far as the differences goes, in it?

[stone]

Maybe someone could recommend a book that gives the differences and explanations of the two so that i don't have to ask so many questions on here about this? :cool:

[Wags]

Does that book "Holy Cow" or however it goes, have all this stuff as far as the differences goes, in it?

If by differences you mean between biblical kosher and rabbinical kosher, then yes, the book "Holy Cow!" does cover both with the main emphasis on biblical kosher. You can see the index here: http://holycownews.com/web/toc.shtml

[stone]

any good books out there that describe all of the laws? and then the differences between the two?

[Wags]

:scratch: Maybe my posts just aren't showing up.

[Bruce101]

:scratch: Maybe my posts just aren't showing up.

You've been posting?

LOL,, just kidding!

Bruce

[insaneinthebrain]

Maybe someone should tell Wags about this thread, as she usually has some pretty good insights.


























:P :D

[Wags]

Thanks guys - I needed the laugh! :D

[stone]

:scratch: Maybe my posts just aren't showing up.

if that's in response to my 2nd question, i mean a book that discusses all of the laws, not just the eating kosher stuff.

I'm ordering that holy cow book now.

[Wags]

if that's in response to my 2nd question, i mean a book that discusses all of the laws, not just the eating kosher stuff.

I'm ordering that holy cow book now.

There are plenty of books that discuss "all of the laws" from a traditional point of view - orthodox, conservative or reform. A quick search on Amazon.com or the like will bring up a bunch.

Tim Hegg (http://www.torahresource.com/) does have a book/audio class out called "Introduction to Torah Living" (http://www.torahresource.com/Images/TOC-TL.pdf) that has some of what you are looking for. You can see sample pages here. (http://www.torahresource.com/Images/IntroToTorahSample.pdf) The audio (CD) class is sold seperately from the book.