Faith and Healing Something to consider

[GraftMeIn]

I can't help but notice that some people think that if you're a Christian and truly know God that it means you should be healed of any sickness or disease. I just can't buy into that. I'm not saying that you can't be healed, we all know God has the power to do such things, and he does. But there's also many reasons he might not heal someone, but that's something that's much harder for our eyes to see, or for our minds to even comprehend.

 Now some of you may already know, that the Lord is preparing to take my father. I know not when this will happen, although I do feel it will be very soon. But I do have a certain amount of understanding as to why it needs to happen, but that's another post in itself. The reason for this post is to show that sometimes there are hidden lessons, etc. that we learn through the afflictions of our loved ones. That maybe God has other reasons for allowing someone to have a disease, or illness that wont be healed. So I will tell you about my own earthly father, and what I have learned through him, and the inflictions he has suffered in his life.

 I think back to a time when I felt I was robbed of a father. While other kids had a father who could drive them around to different places, and do things with them. My father couldn't because he's been bound to a wheelchair since my early childhood, and there have always been many things he couldn't do physically.

 I see things in a different light now, I no longer wonder about why God never healed him, or even question it. I think back to what my father taught me, he taught me many things possibly without even knowing it. Nor did I know I was learning anything at the time. But now the Lord has helped open my eyes, and I can see it more clearly.

 So here are a few things I have learned, and things I have seen. Things I might not have learned at all if my father was healthy.

 I saw how God provided for our family. We had all that we needed, even though neither of my parents worked. We never had to go beg, borrow, or steal. God provided us with all that we needed.

 I learned to be independent. While other kids were being driven here or there, or relying on their fathers to do things for them. I learned to do more for myself, because my father couldn't do them for me.

 I was able to learn about perseverance. Even though my father only had the use of one hand, and couldn't walk. He did many things that amazed me. When he started a project he always stuck to it, and finished it. He never let the fact that things were harder for him to accomplish stand in his way. I never heard him complain, he faces each day one at a time, and simply accepts whatever new struggle he might have to face, and sees it through.

 I learned about patience. Simple things that might take us a couple minutes to do take my father much longer, but he never let that make him angry, he just takes his time and gets them done anyway, without one single complaint.

 I learned that you should never judge someone by their apperance. Just because someone might be different, or have some disability doesn't make them any less of a person, or any different in the eyes of God. God only sees what's in our hearts, we should always see others in the same way.

 These are just a few of the things I learned from watching my father. Things I might not have ever learned, had he been healthy. Lessons that could only come from someone who trusts in God. I also know that he could have never faced things the way he has, without having God in his life.

 When I went to the hospital to visit my Dad, I prayed about if I needed to talk with him about God. And the answer I got was... No he already knows the way. Just be with him.

 So I do not question my fathers salvation one bit. Although it seems some people think that I should. I feel it needs to be said, that if someone tries to convince you, that if someone isn't physically healed that they aren't truly saved, that just isn't true. I'm reminded of not only Job, but also of Lazarus.
 
   Someone with physical limitations face greater hurdles than those who don't. And even when darkness surrounds them, they still have faith in Jesus. They have a light that shines brighter than all the rest. It cuts right through all the darkness, and serves as a tool to teach, and reach others. How they to can overcome the darkness, how when trouble comes our way, no matter how great it is, or how powerless we may be against it. There is still one thing we can always put our faith in, and that is Jesus Christ, because he will see us through all the trials we may come up against in this world. I think there's much to be said for someone who when faced with disease and illness, still clings to their faith in Christ. How great their faith must be, to keep trusting in him for all things. I don't think they lack faith at all, I think they clearly show that they have an even greater faith, than some of us can even begin to understand.

 

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Very well said GraftMeIn,

Your father did a good job of raising you.  You should never feel put down because of others words. 

We can all learn many things from each other and there are variaties of ways to learn these things.  We each have to walk according to what The Lord has shown us and not what he's shown somebody else.

I'm sorry to hear that you may soon lose your father but rejoice with you that he will be with Jesus.   

It's really nobody else's business or place of judgement as to the why's of your father not coming out of that wheelchair.  But when he see's Jesus face to face he will be able to not just walk but I believe he will run.  And he will run with joy and thanksgiving.

Thanks for sharing with us.  Be blessed.  I'm praying for you.

In His Grip,

Barbara 

[GraftMeIn]

Thanks Quaffer,
I felt I needed to post this to show that, if someone is healed or not has nothing to do with if they are truly saved. I think it's kind of sad to think that others would even consider teaching such a thing. God has shown me what a blessing my father has been for others, including myself. And he will be blessed more than we can even imagine when he gets to join Jesus in heaven.

[DaveKerwin]

GraftMeIn,

thanks for your story. I agree, God can use a man such as your father for many things, and because he is not as physically well as others, that means nothing. It does NOT mean that he is missing out, and it does not mean that he should be healed. It means that God allowed what happened to him for a reason, and I believe you have seen why.

I recently heard a quote from a man who had cancer. He was a marathon runner (a famous one) and he had cancer for nealy twenty years before dying. He said the best thing that has ever happened to him was getting cancer. It topped all the awards and metals, it topped everything. Cancer put this man's life in perspective and he lived for twenty years as if every day was his last. If God decided to teah me a lesson like that, I will gladly receive it, and I will use it for the purpose he intends.


Quaffer, you are right, he will run into the arms of the savior.

[LouisBooth]

"Someone with physical limitations face greater hurdles than those who don't"

amen! What a great testimony!!!

"I don't think they lack faith at all, I think they clearly show that they have an even greater faith, than some of us can even begin to understand."

again, AMEN!! Like those crazy kids said, "But even if he does now, we want you to know, O kind, that we will not server your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up." Even if he doesn't help or heal, I'll still worship him, for he is God.

[ZiSunka]

My nephew is deaf. Even if he could be healed, it isn't necessarily God's will for him. God might have plans for him that only a deaf person could fulfill. God might have something bigger than restoration for Greg. Healing is not the end all and be all of life. Sometimes afflictions are bigger blessings than perfect health.

[LouisBooth]

i totally agree lambslove!!!

[Andrew]

all well and nice sweet words but what about some scripture to prove that God doesnt want to heal some or that he authors sickness or death in some of his children?

also ask yourself if you wld do the same to your kids.


Kid: Mummy I have a fever.

Mum: No medicine or doctor for you son. I have my reasons for not bringing you to the doctor but I can't tell you why. Go figure.

-------------

Mrs Lee: I just cut off my son's tongue and broke his legs.

Mr Lim: Oh, what important lesson were you trying to teach him?

Mrs Lee: Not to use foul language and not to run around so much.

Mr Lim: You are such a loving parent :)

-----------------

Mr Lim: I put my son to sleep.

Mrs Lee: But its only 9 am in the morning.

Mr Lim: Oh I meant I killed him becos I wanted to teach him a lesson.

Mrs Lee: You're such a loving father. (smiles)

[LouisBooth]

*chuckles* great strawman you have there andrew, burn it all you want, we don't believe that at all, at least I don't.

[Andrew]

sorry, its not for you Louis or the unbelieving...

btw cldnt help thinking abt you when I wrote the humorous play.

[LouisBooth]

okay, that's fine, I was just saying that it is a strawman. I haven't seen anyone posting on this board that believes any of those things.

as far as this goes..

"about some scripture to prove that God doesnt want to heal some or that he authors sickness or death in some of his children?"

I have several verses that I gave you. I have just been made aware of a few more. The most promient one I know is Ecc 7:14

"When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other..."

[Andrew]

"I haven't seen anyone posting on this board that believes any of those things."

EXACTLY. When it comes to human father-son relationships on earth, they consider such things monstrous and cruel -- and wld lock up such fathers and throw away the keys.

Yet in the same breath, they think that of their Heavenly Father is like that. They may not state it explicityly, but their theology sure shouts it out. And God is not dumb.

Now one may argue, that's using human father-son relationships and extending it to God. But then didnt Jesus himself do the same thing:

Mt 7:11* If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Lu 11:13* If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

One of the reasons why God gives us children is so that when we hold that bundle of joy in our arms, we get a glimpse of how much God loves his children.

[LouisBooth]

"Yet in the same breath, they think that of their Heavenly Father is like that. They may not state it explicityly, but their theology sure shouts it out. And God is not dumb."

Nope, they say exactly what the bible says. :) You just want to twist it a little to make them look bad it seems. Its called building a strawman.

As for the Mat and Luke verses I agree, but this is in terms of spiritual goodness. God isn't going to heal someone if they aren't ready for it.

[Andrew]

"Nope, they say exactly what the bible says."

more like what traditions from the dark ages say.

"As for the Mat and Luke verses I agree, but this is in terms of spiritual goodness."

talk about twisting and adding to scripture.

and on another thread, you say God will meet our needs not wants -- now i dont suppose you are also saying "needs" here are just spiritual? so u wear spiritual clothes and eat spiritual burgers and sleep on a spiritual bed?

[LouisBooth]

Andrew do you have a degree with twisting people's words? you do it quite well.

1. I never said he didn't met your physical needs
2. the passage in luke and Mat, in my view are talking about your spiritual condition
3. 1 and 2 do not conflict.

Now, please stop putting words in my mouth, talking for me, and anything like this. thanks. :)

[Andrew]

quote: "1. I never said he didn't met your physical needs"

so now you show yourself not only to have a PHD in twisting words of people (as confirmed by hobie, quaffer, Snup) and scripture but you are also forgetful. you forgot what you've posted b4:

proof1: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15483&perpage=10&pagenumber=19
"God promises to meet our needs. If we walk and talk according to the way we are instructed by His Word then we are blessed. We cannot escape that principal. "

Louis: "Agreed, but its not physical blessings, its spiritual blessings. God isn't a meal ticket, nor is our faith greater then God."

proof2: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19908&perpage=10&highlight=prosperity&pagenumber=10

Louis: "It seems pretty clear to me that Christ came to give us spirutal blessings, not physical ones. He says as much several times."

want me to dig up some more?

[ZiSunka]

Placing all the responsibility for illness onto the sick person helps those with weak faith and a poor understanding of God cope with the dichotomy of a loving God who allows his people to suffer.

They don't have to look to God as the author of all, they can blame the sick person for not having enough of the right kind of faith.

Their God is too small, He can't possibly allow people to suffer for good reasons; all suffering must be bad.

It's like a three-year-old, who thinks his father should give him a motorcycle. Only a bad father would do that, but to the three year old it seems cruel. The boy needs to grow and mature and develop before he can possibly have the wisdom and ablility to drive a motorcycle. The boy needs to learn balance, which is best learned by falling down. And wisdom, which is best learned by observing and experiencing failure. The boy only sees that his father is withholding something desirable, and causing him to have to experience something undesirable--growth.

WOF believers can't understand why God would keep any "good" thing back from those who love, and why He would require them to experience and understand illness, a "bad" thing. But most believers who go through suffering agree that it was one of the biggest blessings they ever got from God. It was a time of growth, hope and closeness with God. Most people who went through suffering say if they had to give up some part of their lives, they would hold on to the time of suffering, because that is when they were closest to God.

God can't trust everyone with suffering. Some people are like the seeds that fall on shallow soil; when times of trouble come, their roots are not embedded deeply enough into God to survive and flourish.

God can only trust suffering to those who will drawn closer to Him because of it, not fall away.

[eldermike]

What a blessing, preach on Lambslove.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by lambslove
WOF believers can't understand why God would keep any "good" thing back from those who love, and why He would require them to experience and understand illness, a "bad" thing. But most believers who go through suffering agree that it was one of the biggest blessings they ever got from God. It was a time of growth, hope and closeness with God. Most people who went through suffering say if they had to give up some part of their lives, they would hold on to the time of suffering, because that is when they were closest to God.

God can't trust everyone with suffering. Some people are like the seeds that fall on shallow soil; when times of trouble come, their roots are not embedded deeply enough into God to survive and flourish.

God can only trust suffering to those who will drawn closer to Him because of it, not fall away.

I am not denying ANY suffering.  One must experience some suffering and lack in order to stand in faith for God's deliverence. One must experience suffering and lack in order to know they've been delivered. 

I have suffered and I'm sure there will be future suffering in some way.  But I plan for it to be my standing on the Word of God in faith for His deliverence that brings Him glory.  I want to stand on the Word, not my circumstances.  My circumstances do not change God's Word.

Glorifying God while experiencing illness or poverty is wonderful and that's the way it's supposed to be. But it's the person who brings Glory to God, not illness and poverty.

And, I've known lot's of people who got sick and turned away from God. 

[ZiSunka]

God has His own reasons for allowing sickness and suffering among His own people. To say that all sickness and suffering come from a lack of faith is to deny God His true place--ruler of the universe.

He gives rain to the justified and the unjustified--for his own reasons. He gives blessings to some and pain to others--for His own reasons. He heals some and allows others to die--for His own reasons.

The sourvernity of God is not usurped by humans, no matter what they name and claim.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by lambslove
God has His own reasons for allowing sickness and suffering among His own people. To say that all sickness and suffering come from a lack of faith is to deny God His true place--ruler of the universe.

He gives rain to the justified and the unjustified--for his own reasons. He gives blessings to some and pain to others--for His own reasons. He heals some and allows others to die--for His own reasons.

The sourvernity of God is not usurped by humans, no matter what they name and claim.

According to one commentary:

"Ecclesiastes is the book of the natural man whose interests are confined to the unstable, vanishing pleasures and empty satisfactions of those who live merely "under the sun."  The natural man is not aware that all the affirmative answers to life are to be found in Him Who is above, not "under," the sun.  The natural man grovels in the dust and finds only earthworms, while the spiritual man may soar on wings like eagles (Isa 30:31) above all that is futile and disapointing, and may live in the consciousness of God's companionship, favor, and incomparable, everlasting rewards. 

The "Wisdom" of Proverbs is not the "wisdom" of Ecclesiastes.  The former is Godlike, the latter is usually human.

Throughout this book not once is the Supreme Being recognized as "Lord". The word used to designate Him is invariable the one that may be applied to God or to idols -"Elohim," the God recognized "under the sun." The wisdom which is thus limited can end only in "a miserable business"  and in vexation of spirit until it finds "the wisdom that is from above"(James 3:17) "the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto out glory" (1 Cor 2:7)

 

If we are going to quote Solomon from the book of Eccl. we must make sure that what he says is not opposite what God says.  If it is, it's not God who is wrong.

In 2 Chron 19:7  through Jehoshaphat God says, "there is no injustice or partiality with the Lord our God"

Rom 2:11 "For God shows no partiality"

Eph 6:9 "there is no respect of persons with Him

Col 3:25 "with God there is no partiality"

All of these verses show that God disagrees with what Soloman said.  So we must conclude that Soloman was wrong. 

We can not name something that God has not named. It would be futile to do so.  God has named certain things for His children and  if we want them, they are ours to claim.  If it does not happen as I trust, it does not matter.  God is God.  His Word does not change.  Even if I die I will still believe His Word.  Just like those 3 crazy kids in the furnace.

So while your words taken from the book of Eccl "sound" good, they are opposite what God says and are merely agreeing with Soloman who, when he said it, was living "under the sun", and not above it. :bow:

 

[ZiSunka]

I did not quote from Ecclesiates.

I quoted from Matthew: for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

The whole text is: "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. " Matthew 5:44-45

Christ's own words.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by lambslove
I did not quote from Ecclesiates.

I quoted from Matthew: for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

The whole text is: "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. " Matthew 5:44-45

Christ's own words.

I'm sorry lambslove, I believe it's someone else who quotes frequently from Eccl.   

But in this scripture ref I don't see it saying that God causes sickness.  It says, He makes His sun to rise and He makes it to rain on the just and unjust.  Again, I don't see how we can interpret that to mean sickness, disease, and poverty. 

It still stands that God does not show partiality to any person.  He does not promise healing to one and exclude the other.  His sun rises and the rain (water from heaven) falls on us all.  But I don't see that as judgement.

[ZiSunka]

He bless whom He blesses. It's His decision, not ours. You can ask for healing, and receive it gratefully from His hand, but sometimes it is His will to allow you to remain sick, and even to die.

Rain and sun are blessings. Health is a blessing. They all come to the just and the unjust, as he determines, for His own purposes.

[GraftMeIn]

Originally posted by lambslove
My nephew is deaf. Even if he could be healed, it isn't necessarily God's will for him. God might have plans for him that only a deaf person could fulfill. God might have something bigger than restoration for Greg. Healing is not the end all and be all of life. Sometimes afflictions are bigger blessings than perfect health.

That's so true lambslove. I have to admit I was blessed by having two parents that were always at home for me. Although as a teenager I didn't consider it such. I couldn't get away with anything! But now I see it so much differently.

[GraftMeIn]

Originally posted by Andrew
all well and nice sweet words but what about some scripture to prove that God doesnt want to heal some or that he authors sickness or death in some of his children?



Andrew,
 I already posted as to some of things God gave me a better understanding of. But now I ask you to look at this, look at what else the Lord gave me, He gave me these things before I even knew my father had cancer. Take a look at the dates these things were posted.

The Lord gave me a prayer before I even new I needed it... posted on July 23rd (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?amp;threadid=18952)

The Lord gave me words of comfort (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?amp;threadid=19116) before I knew I would need them...
Something written for those who struggle with death July 25th this was written just before learning that they had found masses in my fathers lungs.

This scripture was added

ISAIAH 57: 1-2
1 The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.
2 Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find peace as they lie in death.

As I Mentioned before, God has already granted me understanding as to why he will be taking my father. And that's another post in itself, but I will tell you this. It is to be spared evil. Many will not even see this, many already try and deny what is happening in this world. I will tell you what this evil is, but I will not argue with anyone about it, or about what it is. It is the mark of the beast, My father would be a prime candidate for when it's first instituded, and put into use. But God did not show me this untill after I had written what I had, and untill after learning what was happening to my Dad, and spending much time in prayer about it.

Prayer request posted on July 30th (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?amp;threadid=19394) first posted on the night of July 26th but got lost when the forums moved to the new server, on the 27th. Only to show that it wasn't untill after I wrote the other things that I came to the knowledge about anything going on with my Dad.

Some scriptures as you requested...

Hebrews 2:4
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Notice it says distributed according to his will, not ours.


Ecclesiastes 7:1-2
1- A good name is better than fine perfume, and the day of death better than the day of birth.
2- It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of feasting, for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this to heart.


If it wasn't Gods will that anyone should be sick or suffer, while on this earth. Then what was the need for this scripture?

Matthew 25:37-40
37-  "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38-  When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39-  When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40- "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Why would Jesus say anything about visiting the sick?
Why does the bible tell us that those who suffer on earth will be comforted in heaven?

Here's something I have seen. I have seen my family go from church to church, looking for one that didn't think they needed to cast demons out of my Dad, or accuse him of having a secret sin.

When we would go to church there would always be certain members that would grab hold of Dad drag him to the front of the church and try casting demons out of him. Sorry he wasn't demon possesed he simply has Multiple Sclerosis.
The bible says not to lay hands suddenly upon someone, It also says that if someone is in need of healing let him go to the elders. Seems they didn't give my father the chance to do this, since they went to him instead, only so they could try and cast out demons.

There were also other members of the churches that would approach my Dad after the sermons and tell him that if he quit his secret sin he would be healed. Most of these very same people had to wear eye glasses in order to see.
So what were these people doing to my father? Were they not judging him, by telling him the reasons he hadn't been healed?
 
Only God knows what's in someones heart, only God knows how much faith they have in him. It isn't for us to judge. We can't look at someone and say you lack faith because you haven't been healed physically, If we do then we are in fact judging them.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by GraftMeIn
Only God knows what's in someones heart, only God knows how much faith they have in him. It isn't for us to judge. We can't look at someone and say you lack faith because you haven't been healed physically, If we do then we are in fact judging them. 



GraftMeIn,

I agree with this statement whole heartedly. I can only profusely apologize for the idiocy that some of Gods people operate in, in their zeal, ignorance, and/or selfrighteousness.

Growing up in the penticostal environment I saw and heard a lot of stuff. Some of it good, some of it not so good. Some of it done to me, some of it done to others.

But God was faithful to see to the end that despite some of the ignorance, I came out sane. Through it I learned to just drew closer to Him and got into His Word and tried to learn how to operate the way I saw Him operate.

However, if we really look at some of the things Jesus did, if He were here today, and did those things to people, He would be the top most dangerous person on HH's list.

He spit in the dirt and made mud and then spread it on a blind man's eyes. He called one heart-broken women a dog because she asked that He deliver her demon possesed daughter from the demon. He asked a lame guy why he could'nt get himself to the pool to be healed. He let His disciples take a little boy's lunch. He called the religious of His day, cheap painted gravestones. He hung out with prostitutes, drinkers, tax collectors, and unlearned fishermen. He called His disciples men of little faith because they expressed fear during a storm on the lake. He once called one of them Satan. He let a friend die so He could raise him again. He called Himself God.

We need to learn to apply God's grace to others as He has applied it to us. We cannot expect more of others than we do of ourselves. If we expect others to do it perfectly everytime, or not do it at all then we must apply that same logic to ourselves. But . . .then we would not be obeying what we've been told to do.

A boss I once had use to say, "the only people who don't make mistakes are those who are not doing anything at all".

You're probably gonna say "I don't expect people to be perfect". But let's be honest. If you did not expect it, you would not have been offended.

And I do apply that same logic to myself. When I get offended by something somebody says or does to me, it just shows me how much closer I need to grow to Him. Because, according to Ps 119:165 "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them". And, lest you say, I'm not offened. If that were true you would not still be using it to account for your feelings.

God is not a respector of persons. I don't claim to understand why some manifest that healing while others do not. I do not think it means they love God less than I do.

If one truely believes that God is the one who has made them sick or poor then it is wrong to go to the doctor to try and undo what God has done. It would be working against His will to do so.

It is to your fathers credit that he gave glory to God in the midst of his troubles. It is to your credit that you have matured to understand so much. I believe it was God's Spirit that nurtured that in you and him, not his illness.

God has given you much grace.  He's supplied comfort before you knew you were going to need it.  That is so like Him.  He loves us.  He loves us unconditionally.

I bless you and I pray for great strength to overshadow you during this time of pain.  I pray for Jesus to wrap His arms around you and that you may feel His embrace as you encounter the days ahead.  Be at peace.

your sister in Christ,

Barbara

[GraftMeIn]

thanks again Quaffer,

I like the comment from the boss you gave, It's so true. Everyone makes mistakes. And I've made more than my fair share that's for sure!

What's insteresting is my father never let those things bother him, he never mentioned a word about it, So I didn't think much about it back then. My Mom wasn't too happy about it though. But now looking back on things, and seeing that people are telling others why they haven't been healed. I feel the need to stand up say all these things.

I stand in awe of the way God works in our lives, the way he grants us understanding and gives us just what we need, before we even know that we need it. The way he can show us things so that we know it comes from him, leaving no room for us to doubt it. There's no greater feeling than knowing he has everything under control.

[Andrew]

"but sometimes it is His will to allow you to remain sick, and even to die."

1. Wld we do that to our own children? Then why do we say and teach that our heavenly Father is like that?

2. Healing is plainly in the atonement/redemtion work of Christ. ie its part of the cross/Gospel. So, if you say that statement quoted, then you must also say that "sometimes it is His will to allow you to remain a sinner, and even go to hell." (and yes there are those who actually believe that -- limited atonement doctrine)

I'm not interested in who has more faith or less faith or who's more faithful or less faithful or whatever. The simple truth is that God Word says that healing is part of the cross (as is prosperity and many other things).

Now, why some Christians experience these blessings and why others dont or at varying degrees is certainly a matter of
1) Faith (u cant deny that cos without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to pls God). at its simplest, some Christians dont experience it bcos they dont even believe it and even come against it).
2) We are all growing/learning at different degrees.
3) We dont have all the answers but we know enough from the Word that sickness doesnt come from God (ie he does not AUTHOR it but he has to allow it sometimes although its against his heart). Neither does death. How can it be when death is God's enemy.

I believe the problem is that one does not see that healing is part of redemption. once that can be seen, the argument stops. and the learning can begin.

[LouisBooth]

"want me to dig up some more?"

Go for it andrew, but like always, you're ripping things out of context twisting them slightly just to make your point.

[LouisBooth]

"If we are going to quote Solomon from the book of Eccl. we must make sure that what he says is not opposite what God says. If it is, it's not God who is wrong. "

*sigh* now scripture isn't scripture. Keep twisting. The wisdom that book has in it is countless, and when taken in context is quite enlightening, that is why I quote from that book. Its a great quote and quite inline with the whole bible. God is in control. He sends the good and the bad times. He has made the one as well as the other.

[Andrew]

"Go for it andrew, but like always, you're ripping things out of context twisting them slightly just to make your point."

the context, links, are there for all to check. and no, i'll save you the embarassment.

[LouisBooth]

"the context, links, are there for all to check. and no, i'll save you the embarassment."

Then you'll see that I was not saying he doesn't provide for our physical needs then. The blessings he gives us are of a spiritual nature though.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"If we are going to quote Solomon from the book of Eccl. we must make sure that what he says is not opposite what God says. If it is, it's not God who is wrong. "

*sigh* now scripture isn't scripture. Keep twisting. The wisdom that book has in it is countless, and when taken in context is quite enlightening, that is why I quote from that book. Its a great quote and quite inline with the whole bible. God is in control. He sends the good and the bad times. He has made the one as well as the other.

You forgot to post all my post Louis, so I've done it again for you. :angel:

According to one commentary:

"Ecclesiastes is the book of the natural man whose interests are confined to the unstable, vanishing pleasures and empty satisfactions of those who live merely "under the sun."  The natural man is not aware that all the affirmative answers to life are to be found in Him Who is above, not "under," the sun.  The natural man grovels in the dust and finds only earthworms, while the spiritual man may soar on wings like eagles (Isa 30:31) above all that is futile and disapointing, and may live in the consciousness of God's companionship, favor, and incomparable, everlasting rewards. 

The "Wisdom" of Proverbs is not the "wisdom" of Ecclesiastes.  The former is Godlike, the latter is usually human.

Throughout this book not once is the Supreme Being recognized as "Lord". The word used to designate Him is invariable the one that may be applied to God or to idols -"Elohim," the God recognized "under the sun." The wisdom which is thus limited can end only in "a miserable business"  and in vexation of spirit until it finds "the wisdom that is from above"(James 3:17) "the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto out glory" (1 Cor 2:7)


 

[LouisBooth]

"The former is Godlike, the latter is usually human. "

Nope, wrong again. Both are statements from a wiseman writing down God inspired thoughs. If it was mere human wisdom it would not be scripture.

Sorry to tell you Ecc is from the wisdom of God through a man.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"The former is Godlike, the latter is usually human. "

Nope, wrong again. Both are statements from a wiseman writing down God inspired thoughs. If it was mere human wisdom it would not be scripture.

Sorry to tell you Ecc is from the wisdom of God through a man.


<TABLE height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0>
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<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>Well Louis,

That's quite contradictary to what Solomon himself says in chapter 1:13 "And I applied myself by heart an mind to seek and search out by human wisdom all human activity under heaven.&nbsp; It is a miserable business which God has given to the sons of man with which to busy themselves"

Do you really believe that God is telling us through Soloman that He gave us a miserable business?&nbsp; In verse 16 Solomon writes "I entered into councel with my own mind"&nbsp; V 17 "And I gave my mind to know practical wisdom and to discern the character of madness".&nbsp; Do you believe God led him to do this?&nbsp;

Please Louis, answer those questions.&nbsp; Don't give me some inane answer like "nope".&nbsp;

How about Chapter 2 verse 3 "I searched in my mind how to cheer my body with wine - yet at the same time having my mind hold its course and guide me with human wisdom".&nbsp; Please list for me the times that God might lead you to get drunk to show how you can continue to make Godly decisions while being in such condition.

How about chapter 3 verse 19 "a man has no preeminece over a beast".&nbsp; Imagine that, God says we are "made in His image".&nbsp; But Soloman says we're lower than the beast.&nbsp;

2 Tim 3:16 says; "Every scripture&nbsp;inspired of God is also profitable for teaching. . .reproof. . .correction, for instruction. . .in righteousness.

Through the Eccl scriptures we are taught that doing things according to our own wisdom is futile, empty, and vanity. We are corrected for thinking things according to our own wisdom.&nbsp; And instructed not to follow the same course that&nbsp;Solomon took&nbsp;according to what&nbsp;he wrote in this&nbsp;book.&nbsp;

Now, let's take your logic into other portions of scripture.&nbsp; How&nbsp;about when Adam said,&nbsp;"the&nbsp;woman you gave me".&nbsp; Did&nbsp;God initiate that statement.&nbsp; How about when Cain said,&nbsp;"Am&nbsp;I my brothers keeper?

How about when Abraham and Issac, both lied to&nbsp;a king regarding their wives being their sisters. Were&nbsp;those statements initiated by God.&nbsp;

How about when Baalam refused to prophesy against Israel but instructed the enemy on how they themselves could cause Israel to fall?&nbsp; Would you say&nbsp;he was doing what God told him to do? And that God had it written in the Bible so we can copy it?

Again, 2 Tim 3:16 says; "Every scripture&nbsp;inspired of God is also profitable for teaching. . .reproof. . .correction, for instruction. . .in righteousness.&nbsp;

In all these instances we're supposed to learn&nbsp;how&nbsp;NOT to do things.&nbsp; We are supposed to learn what is NOT righteousness.&nbsp;</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[GraftMeIn]

1 Kings 4:29
God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by GraftMeIn
1 Kings 4:29
God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore.

This is true GRaftMeIn, however, Solomon, in his own words decided he needed to understand things from a "human" point of view and not from God's.&nbsp; So he deliberately, set out to do things opposite of what God instructed and found that everything he learned as such, was vanity.

Eccl 1:13 ( Amplified) "And I applied myself by heart and mind to seek and search out by human wisdom all human activity under heaven.&nbsp; It is a misarable business which God has given to the sons of man whith which to busy themselves.&nbsp;

I have seen all the works that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity, a striving after the wind and a feeding on wind.

What is crooked cannot be made straight, and what is defective and lacking cannot be counted.

I entered into counsel with my own mind, saying, Behold, I have acquired great human wisdom, yes, more than all who have been over Jeursalem before me; and my mind has had great experience of moral wisdom and scientific knowledge.

And I gave my mind to know practical wisdom and to discern the character of madness and folly in which men seem to find satisfaction; I perceived that this also is a searching after wind and a feeding on it.

For much human wisdom is vexation, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow".

Solomon sought to know human wisdom of which he writes only increased his sorrow upon the knowledge of it.&nbsp; He already had all of God's wisdom.&nbsp; Whatever could cause him to think there was anything other that what God said?&nbsp;

He chose the way of sin in his "discoveries".&nbsp; The wages of sin is death.&nbsp; Soloman learned it the hard way. That was his choice, not God's.

[LouisBooth]

quaf, I already responed to your post so I'm not going to do it again and bog the thread down: final conclusion, all scripture is God breathed and the passages you're talking about are specifically refering to themselves, not God as the passage I usually quote. As for the passages in Ecc you quote, if you'd take them in context you'd see they were wisdom of God, but you don't so they don't make sence at all. :)

[GraftMeIn]

Quaffer,
I wouldn't rely on the Ampliphied version of the Bible. Here's how that scripture reads in a few other versions, no where does it mention human wisdom.

NIV Ecclesiastes 1: 12-18

12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13 I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men!
14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
15 What is twisted cannot be straightened; what is lacking cannot be counted.
16 I thought to myself, "Look, I have grown and increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge." 17 Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind.
18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.

KJV Ecclesiastes 1: 12-18

12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

ASV Ecclesiastes 1: 12-18

13 And I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven: it is a sore travail that God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised therewith.
14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind.
15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight; and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
16 I communed with mine own hear, saying, Lo, I have gotten me great wisdom above all that were before me in Jerusalem; yea, my heart hath had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
17 And I applied my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also was a striving after wind.
18 For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

[Andrew]

quote:"This is true GRaftMeIn, however, Solomon, in his own words decided he needed to understand things from a "human" point of view and not from God's.Ê So he deliberately, set out to do things opposite of what God instructed and found that everything he learned as such, was vanity."

AMEN Quaffie. You've rightly divided the Word. ;)

[LouisBooth]

I'd disagree andrew, no where does it say that the book is supposed to not be in the bible, if you want to cut it out, go for it though, just don't claim to be biblical.

[SnuP]

I believe that what they are saying is that the book has great value in showing the extent of mans wisdom but how it will never measure up to God's. And that relying in it will produce distruction. But the book is not God's wisdom and there for the ideas presented in the book should not be taken for His wisdom.

[LouisBooth]

"But the book is not God's wisdom and there for the ideas presented in the book should not be taken for His wisdom."

ahh, but in context they'd be wrong about that. Please study the book.

[SnuP]

While it is true that God's wisdom does shine forth from the book win taken as a whole and even from whole sections, when little snips, verses or just one little section is taken from the book then the wisdom of God is lost in favor of mans wisdom as he tryes to prove part of his doctrine.

Like the gospel of John, there is a distinct message from God that can only be seen when the book is looked at as a whole. But unlike John, specific scripture can not be removed to show one of God's truths because it just comes of as folly.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by GraftMeIn
Quaffer,
I wouldn't rely on the Ampliphied version of the Bible. Here's how that scripture reads in a few other versions, no where does it mention human wisdom.

Actually GraftMeIn, the Amplified is "one" of the most reliable Bibles in print. However, it will not debate that with anyone.&nbsp; It would be pointless.

In the preface of the Amplified it reads:

"From the days of John Wycliffe (1329-1384) and the first English Bible to present, translators hadve worked diligently on English versions designed to faithfully present the Scriptures in contemporary language. The Amplifeid Bible is not an attempt to duplicate what has already been achieved, nor is it intended to be a substitute for other translations. It's genius lies in its rigorous attempt to go beyond the traditional "word-for-word" concept of translation to bring out the richness of thte Hebrew and Greek languages. Its purpose is to reveal, together with the single English word equivalent to each key Hebrew and Greek word, any other clarifying meanings that may be concealed by the traditional translation method. Perhaps for the first time in an English version of the Bible, the full meaning of the key words in the original text is available for the reader. In a sense, the creative use of amplification merely helps the reader comprehend what the Hebrew and Greek listener instinctively understood as a matter of course."

If you go to Strong's Concordance, verse 13. . .

Original word:&nbsp;HMKX&nbsp;

Definition:

1. wisdom a) skill (in war), b) wisdom (in administration), c) shrewdness, wisdom, d) wisdom, prudence (in religious affairs), e) wisdom (ethical and religious)

As you can see, none of them in this usage of the word "wisdom", is the&nbsp;Wisdom of God.&nbsp; The&nbsp;Amplified merely saves the reader the time in looking it up in the Strong's, etc. and does supply the proper meaning.&nbsp;

This is quite different in 1 Cor 1:24 where it says "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Geeks, Christ the power of God, and the Wisdom of God.&nbsp; And Col 2:3&nbsp; "In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Original Word: Sofiva

Definition: 1. wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge of very diverse matters.

a. the wisdom which belongs to men 1. spec. the varied knowledge of things human and divine, acquired by acuteness and experience, and summed up in maxims and proverbs. 2. the science and learning. 3. the act of interpreting dreams and always giving the sagest advice. 4. the intelligence evinced in discovering the meaning of some mysterious number or vision. 5. skill in the management of affairs. 6. devout and proper prudence in intercourse with men not disciples of Christ, skill and discretion in imparting Christian truth. 7. the knowledge and practice of the requisites for godly and upright living.

b. supreme intelligence, such as belongs to God. 1. to Christ. 2. the wisdom of God as evinced in forming and executing counsels in the formation and govenment of the world and the scriptures.

[LouisBooth]

"Actually GraftMeIn, the Amplified is "one" of the most reliable Bibles in print. However, it will not debate that with anyone. It would be pointless. "

I very much disagree with that... the amplified is NOT one of the most reliable bibles, and that is why most theologians I know don't use one. They usually Stick to other versons.

Snup--I totally agree, that is why I made sure that verse 14 in chapter 7 was in context, and thus God's wisdom.