Praying to Saints [Archive] - Christian Forums

Trento

3rd September 2002, 07:26 PM

Lamblove

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Of what use would it be to pray to dead people? They're dead

 

The saints are alive according to this epistle which was read
and considered scripture in the early Church for over 150 years. The Encyclical Epistle of the Church of Smyrna concerning the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp. These are the last few paragraphs. Polycarp lived in the mid-second century. He had spent time in Rome around A.D. 154-55, but is best known as a Bishop of Smyrna. In fact, he was bishop there when Ignatius passed through that city on his way to martydom in Rome around 110 A.D. MartPoly 19:2 Having by his endurance overcome the unrighteous ruler in the conflict and so received the crown of immortality, he rejoiceth in company with the Apostles and all righteous men, and glorifieth the Almighty God and Father, and blesseth our Lord Jesus Christ, the savior of our souls and helmsman of our bodies and shepherd of the universal Church which is throughout the world. MartPoly 20:1 Ye indeed required that the things which happened should be shown unto you at greater length: but we for the present have certified you as it were in a summary through our brother Marcianus. When then ye have informed yourselves of these things, send the letter about likewise to the brethren which are farther off, that they also may glorify the Lord, who maketh election from His own servants. MartPoly 20:2 Now unto Him that is able to bring us all by His grace and bounty unto His eternal kingdom, through His only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, be glory, honor, power, and greatness for ever. Salute all the saints. They that are with us salute you, and Euarestus, who wrote the letter, with his whole house. MartPoly 21:1 Now the blessed Polycarp was martyred on the second day of the first part of the month Xanthicus, on the seventh before the calends of March, on a great Sabbath, at the eighth hour. He was apprehended by Herodes, when Philip of Tralles was high priest, in the proconsulship of Statius Quadratus, but in the reign of the Eternal King Jesus Christ. To whom be the glory, honor, greatness, and eternal throne, from generation to generation. Amen. MartPoly 22:1 We bid you God speed, brethren, while ye walk by the word of Jesus Christ which is according to the Gospel; with whom be glory to God for the salvation of His holy elect; even as the blessed Polycarp suffered martyrdom, in whose footsteps may it be our lot to be found in the kingdom of Jesus Christ. MartPoly 22:2 This account Gaius copied from the papers of Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp. The same also lived with Irenaeus. MartPoly 22:3 And I Socrates wrote it down in Corinth from the copy of Gaius. Grace be with all men. MartPoly 22:4 And I Pionius again wrote it down from the aforementioned copy, having searched it out (for the blessed Polycarp showed me in a revelation, as I will declare in the sequel), gathering it together when it was now well nigh worn out by age, that the Lord Jesus Christ may gather me also with His elect into His heavenly kingdom; to whom be the glory with the Father and the Holy Spirit for ever and ever. Amen. {2*** THE THREE PROCEEDING PARAGRAPHS AS READ IN THE MOSCOW MS. ***}2 {9 MartPoly 22:2 This account Gaius copied from the papers of Irenaeus. The same lived with Irenaeus who had been a disciple of the holy Polycarp. For this Irenaeus, being in Rome at the time of the martyrdom of the bishop Polycarp, instructed many; and many most excellent and orthodox treatises by him are in circulation. In these he makes mention of Polycarp, saying that he was taught by him. And he ably refuted every heresy, and handed down the catholic rule of the Church just as he had received it from the saint. He mentions this fact also, that when Marcion, after whom the Marcionites are called, met the holy Polycarp on one occasion, and said 'Recognize us, Polycarp,' he said in reply to Marcion, 'Yes indeed, I recognize the firstborn of Satan.' The following statement also is made in the writings of Irenaeus, that on the very day and hour when Polycarp was martyred in Smyrna Irenaeus being in the city of the Romans heard a voice as of a trumpet saying, ' Polycarp is martyred.' MartPoly 22:3 From these papers of Irenaeus then, as has been stated already, Gaius made a copy, and from the copy of Gaius Isocrates made another in Corinth. MartPoly <B>22:4 And I Pionius again wrote it down from the copy of Isocrates, having searched for it in obedience to a revelation of the holy Polycarp,</B> gathering it together, when it was well nigh worn out by age, that the Lord Jesus Christ may gather me also with His elect into His heavenly kingdom; to whom be the glory with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit for ever and ever. Amen. .
Looks like Polycarp appeared to the Author and gave him details of what transpired SAINTS ALIVE.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Reformationist

3rd September 2002, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Trento
The Encyclical Epistle of the Church of Smyrna concerning the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp

Is this text recognized by the Protestant movement?

MartPoly 19:2...MartPoly 20:1...MartPoly 20:2...MartPoly 21:1...MartPoly 22:1...MartPoly 22:2...MartPoly 22:3...MartPoly 22:4

 :scratch: Are these supposed to be scripture notations?

C'mon Trento.  You're not actually trying to answer this question by citing a non-scriptural reference that isn't accepted by the reformation movement?  Are you?

I'm confused, please explain.

God bless.

DaveKerwin

3rd September 2002, 08:18 PM

God is the source of all good things, and he alone sits on the throne. Only he can answer prayers, so I will pray to him directly, I don't need a middle man. If you need one, then go ahead, but I will go right to the big man. It's like calling my lawyer. I don't want to talk to the secretary, I want to talk to him directly. Same with God. I go right to God. So I say go directly to the source of everything, because only he can do what you ask.

ZiSunka

3rd September 2002, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by Trento
Lamblove

The saints are alive according to this epistle which was read
[color=#000099]and considered scripture in the early Church for over 150 years. [b]The Encyclical Epistle of the Church of Smyrna concerning the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp. These are the last few paragraphs. Polycarp lived in the mid-second century. ....And I Pionius again wrote it down from the copy of Isocrates, having searched for it in obedience to a revelation of the holy Polycarpgathering it together, when it was well nigh worn out by age, that the Lord Jesus Christ may gather me also with His elect into His heavenly kingdom; to whom be the glory with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit for ever and ever. Amen. .
Looks like Polycarp appeared to the Author and gave him details of what transpired SAINTS ALIVE.

I'm one of those Bible-only Christians, therefore, catholic tradition, no matter how wordy, means nothing to me.

If we have the authority through Jesus Christ to go boldly into the thrown room to ask of God anything we wish, why on earth would we bother asking some dead person to ask Him for us? ? :scratch: :( :eek:

Trento

3rd September 2002, 11:06 PM

Sorry Brothers and sisters i was under the impression from historical Patristic texts that they preserved the words of Jesus and his teachings  then passed it on to followers who eventually sorted through these and chose the table of contents for the Bible. For myself if i can trust that they chose the Contents of the Bible correctly which is a tradition of my Church i will trust them in other traditional matters. I respect your tradition and  leave it at that. :)

Brian45

4th September 2002, 06:29 AM

Originally posted by lambslove
Of what use would it be to pray to dead people? They're dead.

 

I couldn't agree more ,  as a matter of fact , I can't remember the last time I had a conversation with a dead person , and if I did , it was probibly over a dead issue ,  then again , maybe i'm a dead beat .             :)

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 08:35 AM

nyj

4th September 2002, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Reformationist
Since you deem it beneficial to have Mary intercede on you behalf do you think your prayer is more likely to be answered if she does so?

Well Reformationist, I'd hate to cloud the issue with Scripture, but since you asked, the answer is "Yes".

"The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit." - James 5:16-18

"He hears the prayers of the righteous." - Proverbs 15:29

How much more righteous can one be than one who shares fully in the divine mysteries of Jesus salvific actions on the cross?

Originally posted by Reformationist
Do you think that intercession on your behalf by anyone, including Mary, the Pope, your fellow Catholic, etc is a determining factor in whether God grants that request?

Intercessory prayer is good and pleasing to God.

"First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth." - 1 Timothy 2:1-4

Yes, I believe that such (having Mary or a Christian friend pray for me on my behalf... btw I notice how you only targeted Catholics for mockery in your post) may very well be the case. Of course, I wouldn't ask just anyone to pray for me on my behalf... Would you ask an unbeliever to pray on your behalf Reformationist? Would you ask an athiest to say a prayer for you Reformationist? I doubt it, and hence you asking me this question is somewhat hypocritical.

[i]Originally posted by Reformationist
Thanks for the insight.

It's always a pleasure to correct people's misunderstandings so they can see the Biblical Accuracy of Catholicism.

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by nyj
Well Reformationist, I'd hate to cloud the issue with Scripture, but since you asked, the answer is "Yes".

"The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit." - James 5:16-18

"He hears the prayers of the righteous." - Proverbs 15:29

Thanks for sharing the scripture nyj.  I am not questioning the power of prayer.  Prayer is definitely one method by which God defines and enacts His Divine Will.  But neither one of those scriptures you noted shows any support for praying to dead saints for intercessory prayer.  Further, prayer doesn't change God's immutable plan.  If you pray for rain to Mary, or the Pope or you and a bunch of Christians get together and pray for rain it's not like God says, "Finally!  Now I can have my Will be done."

How much more righteous can one be than one who shares fully in the divine mysteries of Jesus salvific actions on the cross?

Well, despite what your church might teach their aren't "levels of righteousness."  You're either righteous, or you're not.  Christ's death made me righteous in God's eyes.  Are my works righteous?  Of course not.  But, again, I'm not saved by my righteousness.  I'm saved by His.  My salvation is based on nothing I did, do, or will do.  It's based on what Jesus did for me.  My point is that regardless of whether praying to a dead Christian for their intercessory prayer is beneficial or not, it is no more or less beneficial than having a fellow Christian pray with you.  Either way, it doesn't change God's plan.

Intercessory prayer is good and pleasing to God.

Well,...I would agree.  I would also say any kind of prayer that exalts God pleases Him. 

Yes, I believe that such (having Mary or a Christian friend [i.e.: a righteous person] pray for me on my behalf... btw I notice how you only targeted Catholics for mockery in your post) may very well be the case.

I apologize if you feel I was "targeting" anyone.  I just wasn't aware that anyone else prayed to saints, except maybe Methodists, which in my opinion are pretty much Protestant Catholics, a least by the nature of their faith and the things involved in it, such as praying to saints.

Of course, I wouldn't ask just anyone to pray for me on my behalf... Would you ask an unbeliever to pray on your behalf Reformationist? Would you ask an athiest to say a prayer for you Reformationist? I doubt it, and hence you asking me this question is somewhat hypocritical.

Must you always be so confrontational?  My comments weren't spawned from a desire to target your church.  Maybe you should not always assume the worst:

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;<SUP> </SUP>does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;<SUP> </SUP>does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;<SUP> </SUP>bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

It's always a pleasure to correct people's misunderstandings so they can see the Biblical Accuracy of Catholicism.

1 Corinthians 13:4
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up.

Sorry to "cloud the issue with Scripture."

God bless.

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 01:05 PM

How much more righteous can one be than one who shares fully in the divine mysteries of Jesus salvific actions on the cross?

When did Mary hang on the cross? :scratch: I can't find that in my Bible.

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 01:21 PM

Through our sanctification we begin to participate more fully in the life we have through Christ, until our death when we participate fully. Nothing was said about Mary ever hanging on a cross.

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 01:23 PM

Really? Because that statement that she "shares fully in the divine mysteries of Jesus salvific actions on the cross" makes it sound like you are saying she hung on the cross with him.

How does she share in them anymore than all the rest of us humans, then? I mean, if no one but Christ hung on the cross, then He did ALL the work of salvation on the cross, right?

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 01:36 PM

Christ's death made me righteous in God's eyes. Are my works righteous? Of course not.

If you have been made righteous, then why are the things you do not found pleasing to God? We are righteous, and what we do is sanctified by the Holy Spirit. We participate in the divine nature, right here and now. Obviously not to the extent we will after our death, but God still dwells within us. Those faithful who have died before us are not cut off from the Body of Christ, but are instead even more a part of it. We try to pay attention to our brothers needs and pray for them, but we can only do it imperfectly. Our departed brothers and sisters behold God in all His glory, they have been perfectly sanctified, and I believe they fulfill Christ's wishes that we pray for one another perfectly. To me that is as clear from Scripture as the Trinity is. Why the need to divide the Body of Christ? Has death not been conquered?

God Bless,

Neal

VOW

4th September 2002, 01:39 PM

To Lambslove:

Isshinwhat's remark about Mary sharing in the divine mysteries was in reference to her being the Mother of God. Without her cooperation, Jesus would not have been available to hang on the cross.

To Reformationist:

But neither one of those scriptures you noted shows any support for praying to dead saints for intercessory prayer.

But the Scriptural support shows that we are to pray for one another, and because of the PROMISE of Jesus, the "dead saints" are not DEAD, but alive in Christ.

A Catholic asking a "dead saint" to pray with him is identical in nature in a Protestant asking his pastor to pray with him. If you believe in the promise of Jesus, that those who believe in Him will NOT DIE, but have everlasting life, then the Catholic asking the "dead saint" to pray is merely showing absolute confidence in that very promise!

I just wasn't aware that anyone else prayed to saints, except maybe Methodists, which in my opinion are pretty much Protestant Catholics, a least by the nature of their faith and the things involved in it, such as praying to saints.

I wasn't aware of Methodists honoring saints. The denomination most similar to Catholicism is Episcopal, with Lutheran right behind. Both of those denominations recognize saints.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 01:42 PM

I mean, if no one but Christ hung on the cross, then He did ALL the work of salvation on the cross, right?

But we are all required to participate in Christ's death and unite ourselves to it.

Colossians 1:24

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

Every one of us will eventually sahre fully in Christ's salvific action. Those faithful who have died do so already.

Neal

Chloe

4th September 2002, 01:44 PM

Since all those who have died in faith are in the very presence of the Lord, why would they have to pray? The Bible says nothing of asking those that have died and gone to be with the Lord to pray for us at all. Jesus taught us how to pray, to the Father in His name. Yes we are to pray for one another, as the Bible teaches, but we are NEVER told to ask for those who are with God to pray for us. Big difference, especially considering that all who are redeemed are saints.

VOW

4th September 2002, 02:00 PM

To Chloe:

The Bible says nothing of asking those that have died and gone to be with the Lord to pray for us at all.

No, but the Bible tells us to pray for ONE ANOTHER.

To put it another way, the Bible doesn't tell us NOT to ask "dead saints" to pray for you!

We are not saying that everyone MUST ask the saints to pray for them. Our point is this: there is nothing wrong with someone asking a saint to pray with them to God; it is simply asking another person to pray for you, as you would ask a friend, a relative, or your pastor.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Thunderchild

4th September 2002, 02:02 PM

Well - that blew a theory apart. I was going to question whether all disciples of Christ were saints or not. But searching through the various epistles shows that the concept is valid.

Of course, there is a distinction between a believer and a disciple.

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 02:02 PM

Isshinwhat's remark about Mary sharing in the divine mysteries was in reference to her being the Mother of God.

That was the greatest way she participated in the divine nature, yes, but there were others; Pentecost, her suffering on Calvary as she watched Him die, and countless others that we will probably never know.

2 Peter 1:3-4

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

We are living sacrifices. All we do we strive to unite with Christ's sacrifice on Calvary, "For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too," (2 Corinthians 1:5). We have confidence that those sacrifices we make are pleasing to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit (Romans 15:16).

Mary's greatest gift was being the Mother of God, with all that entails. Every mother knows the sacrifices inherent to that. Mine will be something else, and each of yours a different thing. But what the gift or sacrifice is does not matter. What matters is the fact that we do it for love of God, and with a humble heart. Through that, we offer ourselves and all we do to God, and in the end, when we are all called home, we will be welcomed with those beautiful words, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

God Bless,

Neal

Thunderchild

4th September 2002, 02:08 PM

Well - i personally don't pray to dead saints. But - I can see no real need to go into conniptions about someone else doing it. To the extent of asking a dead saint join his or her petition to one's own petition to God anyway. Now, asking a dead saint to perform a miracle or such ... that is a different matter.

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 02:10 PM

Since all those who have died in faith are in the very presence of the Lord, why would they have to pray?

Keep in mind the scene recorded in Revelations occurs in the Heaven, and the vision Judas Maccabeus has is of two men, Jeremiah and Onias, who are dead.

Revelations 5:8

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Revelations 8:2-4

Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

2 Maccabees 15:11-16

...he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God." Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: "Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries."

I believe the bolded portion in the last passage says why they pray; they love us.

God Bless,

Neal

Thunderchild

4th September 2002, 02:12 PM

If you have been made righteous, then why are the things you do not found pleasing to God? We are righteous, and what we do is sanctified by the Holy Spirit. We participate in the divine nature, right here and now.

Oh - poor form that, Neal, thoroughly unsporting of you. . How dare you bring logical analysis of the scriptures into play. It's just NOT the done thing.

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by VOW
To Lambslove:

Isshinwhat's remark about Mary sharing in the divine mysteries was in reference to her being the Mother of God. Without her cooperation, Jesus would not have been available to hang on the cross.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Cuz God wasn't able, without Mary's help? :D

If Mary hadn't cooperated, the world would still be lost? :D

He would have never found anyone else to bear Himself as a human baby? :D

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 02:18 PM

That was the greatest way she participated in the divine nature, yes, but there were others; Pentecost, her suffering on Calvary as she watched Him die, and countless others that we will probably never know.

But those were PERSONAL sufferings, having nothing to do with us. Strangers cannot suffer for each other. Mary's pain was the result of watch her own offspring die painfully, and did NOTHING to sanctify us or make us righteous.

She was just another human being. Nothing about her was divine, nor is she now divine.

VOW

4th September 2002, 02:20 PM

The whole selection of Mary as the Mother of Jesus is based upon HER free will choice, her personal decision to accept the honor.

Without her ability to utilize free-will, then essentially you say that she was coerced. Her COOPERATION was needed.

Was Gabriel SHOPPING for a willing womb?

~VOW

DaveKerwin

4th September 2002, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by lambslove
Cuz God wasn't able, without Mary's help? :D

If Mary hadn't cooperated, the world would still be lost? :D

He would have never found anyone else to bear Himself as a human baby? :D

Yeah, God can do anything he wants, and if he wanted to save us and Mary was not willing, he would have made it happen. His mere words speak things into existance. He could have made anyone pregnant. Mary is no more special than lambslove, but I will not pray to lambslove. Asking lambslove to pray ALONG SIDE OF ME is different than me praying TO HER.

I grew up catholic, and I was extremely confused. I remember a conversation with my aunt about two years ago. She says she believes in Mary, and prays to Mary, but she was uncertain about Jesus, and if she even believed in Jesus. So because she was unsure, she didnt pray to Jesus, and only to Mary. I am here to tell you today that my Aunt's prayers are said in vain. Here is what I told her "How can you believe in Mary and not in Jesus? The ONLY thing that makes Mary anything is the fact that she bore Jesus. " Jesus is the focal point of all creation. He is the reason you were born, he is the reason you exist today, and he is the reason you will live forever. If I was you, I would pray only to Jesus. A middle man is not necessary. If you want others to pray along side you, then ask them to lift you up in prayer as you do yourself. JESUS hears prayers. When I pray, I say dear JESUS, not "dear saint so and so who is in the grave. "

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by isshinwhat
If you have been made righteous, then why are the things you do not found pleasing to God?

Because in His Divine providence He deemed it beneficial for my sanctification to leave within me the ability to transgress His Law, IOW sin.  That sinful nature that still wars in my members will not result in my death but rather in my life.  It is that resistance that causes me to trust more in His immutability and less on my own willpower.  I thank God daily that I can't lose my salvation by doing something "not pleasing" to God.  Lord knows that if it were up to me I would have lost my salvation a million times and more.

We are righteous, and what we do is sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

I agree.  However, as is shown explicitly on this MB Christians, myself included, are often the worst offenders of God's Law because we know the truth and do it not.

We participate in the divine nature, right here and now. Obviously not to the extent we will after our death, but God still dwells within us. Those faithful who have died before us are not cut off from the Body of Christ, but are instead even more a part of it.

I would agree with this except to say the faithful who have died before us are "even more a part" of the Body of Christ.  As I said, I don't believe that anyone is righteous by their own actions, before or after dying.  Therefore, our righteousness is something credited to us on account of the actions of another, that being Jesus.

We try to pay attention to our brothers needs and pray for them, but we can only do it imperfectly.

I agree.

God bless.

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 02:31 PM

But those were PERSONAL sufferings, having nothing to do with us. Strangers cannot suffer for each other. Mary's pain was the result of watch her own offspring die painfully, and did NOTHING to sanctify us or make us righteous.

1 Corinthians 12:26

And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

In a very real sense, anything that happens to you, happens to me. No, Mary's suffering did not sanctify you nor me (nor has anyone claimed that), but it did effect you and I. Just look, we are having a conversation about it 2000 years after the fact.

What is being said is that Mary is righteous and her prayers are effective. Not that she ever redeemed anyone by her own power, nor that she is divine.

Neal

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 02:32 PM

Mary is no more special than lambslove, but I will not pray to lambslove. Asking lambslove to pray ALONG SIDE OF ME is different than me praying TO HER.

Lambslove couldn't answer your prayers, because she is merely human. Although she loves you as a sibling-in-Christ, her will is not always done. The best she can do is pray FOR you, too.

I have a dear friend who dedicated all her children to Mary. If I were Mary, I would be repulsed by that. The object of Mary's devotion was God, not herself. Mary was an instrument of God, like so many others before her, but she was not God, not divine, not a co-equal to Christ, not the Mother of God, not anything more than a human being who made herself available to God's will. Like Samuel, Elijah, Joshua, Isaiah, Ezra, and all the rest who madethemselves available to God. Human, that's all.

VOW

4th September 2002, 02:40 PM

To Dave:

Asking lambslove to pray ALONG SIDE OF ME is different than me praying TO HER.

And that is EXACTLY what Catholics are doing when they ask a saint to pray for them. It is a miscommunication, often on behalf of many Catholics themselves, to say that we "pray to Saints," as someone would pray to God. The saint does not answer prayers. The saint is not divine. The saint merely lifts up his or her voice to yours to glorify God.

Part of the problem is in the very word, "to pray." In a more archaic form of English, it means to beseech someone, to ask of someone. It's still used in legal wording today, and even in British courtrooms.

If you personally don't want to ask a "dead saint" to pray for you, that's fine. But there is nothing wrong with someone else asking a saint to join him in prayer.

Peace,
~VOW

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by VOW
Isshinwhat's remark about Mary sharing in the divine mysteries was in reference to her being the Mother of God. Without her cooperation, Jesus would not have been available to hang on the cross.

Mary's cooperation?  So, she had a choice in the matter?  I don't remember Gabriel asking Mary for her permission one time.  In fact, he said, ""Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.<SUP>  </SUP>And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.<SUP>  </SUP>He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.<SUP>  </SUP>And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

Did he say, "If it's okay with you God wants you to bear a child even though you are a virgin?"  Or, "Would you mind calling Him Jesus?"  No.  He said, "You will" and you "shall call His name Jesus."  Not a whole lot of asking for Mary's "cooperation."

Just out of curiosity VOW, what do you think would have happened had she said, "Naaah.  I'll pass."  Do you believe God's Will such a tentative thing that He relies on our "cooperation" to ensure His Will is done? 

But the Scriptural support shows that we are to pray for one another, and because of the PROMISE of Jesus, the "dead saints" are not DEAD, but alive in Christ.

I have never disputed the scriptural support for praying for one another.  I am confused, and concerned, by the veneration shown to the level of influence Mary's intercessory prayers have in our appeal.  I have never seen a prayer on paper, practiced by an entire denomination, called "Holy VOW, saint of God."  By the way, I don't mean that maliciously or sarcastically.  It's just seems quite obvious that you believe Mary's intercessory prayers to be more help than that of the saved individual at your church who you might go to for help in dealing with a burden.

I wasn't aware of Methodists honoring saints. The denomination most similar to Catholicism is Episcopal, with Lutheran right behind. Both of those denominations recognize saints.

Well, sorry.  I'm most likely wrong.  My parents are Methodists, kinda.  Don't know much about those others.  What I do find ironic is that one of the religions you mention as being "most similar" to Catholicism is Lutheran.  Strange, don'tcha think? 

Thanks for your input VOW.

God bless.

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 02:42 PM

The saint does not answer prayers.

Then why all those ads in the classified section of the newspaper that say, "Thank you Saint Jude, for prayers answered and favors given"?

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 02:42 PM

About the whole, "If it wasn't Mary it would have been someone else. God didn't need Mary, he could have made it happen," argument.

God humbled himself through the Incarnation. God chose to allow us to work with Him. He didn't tell Mary she would conceive, he asked her if she were willing. God is not in the business of asking the wrong people to do things, and I believe He prepared her beforehand for her mission. For arguments sake, if it hadn't been Mary, some other woman would still have consented/cooperated. Through humbling Himself, even to the point of death at our hands, He showed His glory. The fact that God uses the cooperation of man in no way infringes upon His soverignty, it displays it beautifully. Did God "need" Mary's help? No. Did God "need" to humble himself? No. Did God "need" to create us? No. But he did in every instance because of love. Because the way He chose to operate, he needed a woman to cooperate with His plan, and I believe He prepared Mary for it beautifully.

God Bless,

Neal

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 02:44 PM

But the glory goes to God, not to Mary. As you said, "He prepared her beautifully."

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 02:46 PM

As I said, I don't believe that anyone is righteous by their own actions, before or after dying.

Nor do I, but I do believe they have been fully sanctified, whereas I have not.

Neal

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by VOW
The whole selection of Mary as the Mother of Jesus is based upon HER free will choice, her personal decision to accept the honor.

Please share the scripture that implies that her acquiescence to God's Will is what "allowed" God to use her.

Without her ability to utilize free-will, then essentially you say that she was coerced. Her COOPERATION was needed.

Where?  Where does it say this anywhere in the Bible? :scratch:  

Was Gabriel SHOPPING for a willing womb?

Did Gabriel ask her to comply with God's Will?

God bless.

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 02:52 PM

But the glory goes to God, not to Mary. As you said, "He prepared her beautifully."

Amen.

Then why all those ads in the classified section of the newspaper that say, "Thank you Saint Jude, for prayers answered and favors given"?

First, prayer does not entail worship. It means only to ask. One's prayer to St. Jude would be a request that he pray to God. The quote you provided assumes he has done so, and is in thanks for that. Would you have a problem if I came up to you and said, "lambslove, will you do me a favor and pray for me?"

Neal

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by isshinwhat
He didn't tell Mary she would conceive, he asked her if she were willing.

Where?!!  This is what I read:

Luke 1:30-35
Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.<SUP>  </SUP>And behold, YOU WILL conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and SHALL CALL His name Jesus."  Then, again, "The Holy Spirit WILL COME UPON YOU, and the power of the Highest WILL OVERSHADOW YOU; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Where is he asking her permission or willingness?<SUP> </SUP>

So first you say:

Did God "need" Mary's help? No.

Then you say:

Because the way He chose to operate, he needed a woman to cooperate with His plan, and I believe He prepared Mary for it beautifully.

So, did God use Mary because He "needed" Mary or did He do it that way because it was His plan?

God bless.

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 02:58 PM

"Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word."

No offense, but I do not believe God would just tell some teenager He was going to make her pregnant without her consent. I believe the above quote to be her consent to the statment of God's will by the Archangel Gabriel.

Neal

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 03:00 PM

So first you say:

Context. I was saying that God doesn't "need" to do anything He does, strictly speaking.

Neal

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 03:01 PM

First, prayer does not entail worship. It means only to ask. One's prayer to St. Jude would be a request that he pray to God.

Then why thank Jude for answered prayers. If you asked me to pray for you, you might thank for praying, but you wouldn't thank me for answering your prayers! :D

In the prayer that goes with the newspaper ads, there is no mention of St Jude praying for you. Here is the text of that prayer:

"O most holy apostle, St. Jude, faithful servant and friend of Jesus, the church honors and invokes you universally, as the patron of hopeless cases, of things almost despaired of. Pray for me, I am so helpless and alone.

Make use, I implore you, of that particular privilege given to you, to bring visible and speedy help where help is almost despaired of. Come to my assistance in this great need that I may receive the consolation and help of heaven in all my necessities, tribulations, and sufferings, particularly (state your request) and that I may praise God with you and all the elect forever.

I promise, O blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor, to always honor you as my special and powerful patron, and to gratefully encourage devotion to you.

Amen. "

This prayer asks Jude to fix the problem directly. "Come to my assistance," "gratefuly encourage devotion to you." Those are direct requests for intervention, with the promise of devotion is the request is granted.

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by isshinwhat
No offense, but I do not believe God would just tell some teenager He was going to make her pregnant without her consent. I believe the above quote to be her consent to the statment of God's will by the Archangel Gabriel.

Neal

So you are actually saying that if Mary had said, "No.  I don't want to do this" God would have been like, "Man!!  I was so close.  Who can I use now?"  The thing is, you guys believe Mary was withheld from blemish for the purpose of being the vessel for the birth of the Savior.  You're saying that God invests so much in one woman, so much so as to make her free from sin her entire life and then just says, "Okay Mary, now it's up to you?"  What if she said no?  Were there a bunch of other sin-free virgins running around?

God bless.

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by isshinwhat
Context. I was saying that God doesn't "need" to do anything He does, strictly speaking.

Neal

I don't see your point.  Did God "need" a fallen creation to save them?  Of course.  If we weren't fallen we wouldn't have needed to be saved.  Does that mean we deserve some kind of glory because we are subject to His Will?  Of course not.  Sorry bro, I don't think I took it out of context.

God bless.

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 03:06 PM

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 03:08 PM

Then why thank Jude for answered prayers. If you asked me to pray for you, you might thank for praying, but you wouldn't thank me for answering your prayers!

Lambslove.... St. Jude did answer your prayer to him... he prayed. Have you ever read Shakespeare? "Pray thee tell me!" My asking you to pray for me is a prayer to you. I am asking you, and that is all pray means in this instance.

In the prayer that goes with the newspaper ads, there is no mention of St Jude praying for you.

Look at the first three words of the last sentence of the first paragraph, "Pray for me."

God Bless,

Neal

Chloe

4th September 2002, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by VOW
To Chloe:

No, but the Bible tells us to pray for ONE ANOTHER.

To put it another way, the Bible doesn't tell us NOT to ask "dead saints" to pray for you!

So because the Bible doesn't say NOT TO, then we are to ask dead saints to pray for us?  So we are to assume that omission is permission?  If the Bible does not mention prayer to saints then why do it?  In fact in the OT, trying to contact with those who had died was very clearly forbidden. 

We are not saying that everyone MUST ask the saints to pray for them. Our point is this: there is nothing wrong with someone asking a saint to pray with them to God; it is simply asking another person to pray for you, as you would ask a friend, a relative, or your pastor.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

There is a big difference in asking someone who is alive on this earth to pray for you and praying to or asking someone who is dead and in the presence of God to pray for you.  Again, since they are with God, in His very presence, why would they need to pray? 

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 03:12 PM

Sorry bro, I don't think I took it out of context.

You did, because I know what I meant. :) God did not need to even create us. God did not need to save us. He needs absolutely nothing. He did so only out of love. To save us, He could have just said, " You are saved!" But he didn't. It was within His power to do so, but He chose not to.

Neal

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 03:13 PM

:D I just went to the St Jude prayer website, where you can "publish" your prayer to saint Jude. And guess what? You have to PAY to get St Jude to hear your prayer! :D

Upon clicking the "submit prayer" button, it takes you to a page where you must enter your credit card info to get your prayer to st jude! :D If you don't input your card info, it tells you that it cannot transmitt your prayer! :D

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Chloe
So because the Bible doesn't say NOT TO, then we are to ask dead saints to pray for us?  So we are to assume that omission is permission?  If the Bible does not mention prayer to saints then why do it?  In fact in the OT, trying to contact with those who had died was very clearly forbidden.

I was kinda wondering the same thing myself Chloe. :confused: :scratch:  

God bless.

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 03:15 PM

Again, since they are with God, in His very presence, why would they need to pray?

Here you go, Chloe. I asnwered you a while back, but the thread has moved on several pages now.

God Bless,

Neal

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by isshinwhat
Here you go, Chloe. I asnwered you a while back, but the thread has moved on several pages now.

God Bless,

Neal

Was there supposed to be a link your post Neal? :scratch:

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 03:17 PM

dead saints

To a Catholic, this is an oxymoron. That is why we ask them for their prayers.

Neal

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 03:18 PM

My mom is dead. Can I pray to her? :D

Satan has access to God. Is it okay to pray to him? :D

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 03:18 PM

Neal, could you address post #51?

Thanks bro,

God bless.

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 03:19 PM

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=329642#post329642

Doh! Yeah, Ref, sorry. :)

Neal

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 03:22 PM

What if she said no? from post #51

God, through his foreknowledge, knew she would say yes. That, however, did not take away from her free will in answering.

Neal

P.S. I'll be back on later, I was supposed to meet my fiancee 45 mninutes ago. Pray for me! :)

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by isshinwhat
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=329642#post329642

Doh! Yeah, Ref, sorry. :)

Neal

I don't know if this link points to where you mean for it to.  If so, I don't get the answer.  First off, I don't have a "Maccabees" book in my Bible.  Second, I assume your referring to "the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."  If that is that what you're referring to I don't see how that addresses my post.

Here it is again in case we're not talking about the same thing:

So you are actually saying that if Mary had said, "No.  I don't want to do this" God would have been like, "Man!!  I was so close.  Who can I use now?"  The thing is, you guys believe Mary was withheld from blemish for the purpose of being the vessel for the birth of the Savior.  You're saying that God invests so much in one woman, so much so as to make her free from sin her entire life and then just says, "Okay Mary, now it's up to you?"  What if she said no?  Were there a bunch of other sin-free virgins running around?

Thanks,

Don

Chloe

4th September 2002, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by isshinwhat
Keep in mind the scene recorded in Revelations occurs in the Heaven, and the vision Judas Maccabeus has is of two men, Jeremiah and Onias, who are dead.

I believe the bolded portion in the last passage says why they pray; they love us.

God Bless,

Neal

 

But notice it is the prayers of the saints, it is not inferring that they are the prayers of saints that are in heaven.  It is instead referring to the saints that are living.  As far as Maccabees, it is as far as I am concerned and by many authoritative scholars that 1 or 2 Maccabees was not inspired by God and therefore is not recognized as holding any authority. 

Do you not believe that all believers who are redeemed are saints?

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by isshinwhat
God, through his foreknowledge, knew she would say yes. That, however, did not take away from her free will in answering.

So God's foreknowledge of Mary's answer is why He picked her?  So, God, eternal as He is, did what?  Looked down through time and saw what she would say?  Did He not have any control over what she would say?  Is God then subject to our will?  Who is really sovereign in this instance?  How could God know ahead of time something that is left to our free will?  Did God based His Divine plan on the possible choices of man to achieve His desired end or does the end come about exactly as He had predetermined because He's God and that's what being sovereign means.  Sovereign doesn't mean being able to overcome an obstacle because you can "work around" an event you have no control over.  Sovereign means that God decrees that something will happen a certain way and it does not deviate from that exact decree.

P.S. I'll be back on later, I was supposed to meet my fiancee 45 mninutes ago. Pray for me! :)

LOL!  Good luck!  I'll pray for you.  LOL!

God bless,

Don

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 03:41 PM

What the St Jude Novena site says:

"The St. Jude novena is unique in that traditionally when you pray to St. Jude"

"Online guestbooks are a starting point in your relationship with St. Jude,"

"In short, these are the people you should be publishing for and who need your encouragement to turn to St. Jude!"

What the Bible says:

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, a man, Christ Jesus" I Timothy 2:5

"But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God" John 1:12 (If we are children of God, we don't need a go-between relationship with st jude!) "Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:16

"they should repent and turn to God, " Acts 26:20 (Why turn to st jude? We are to turn to God to be our help in times of need!)

VOW

4th September 2002, 03:55 PM

To lambslove:

You have received answers from people in this very thread about what "pray to" means. Continuing to dwell upon your personal interpretation of the word is unnecessary. Again, you are not required to "pray" to anyone; and you cannot judge another for asking a "dead saint" to pray for them.

Further, this remark by you:
Satan has access to God. Is it okay to pray to him? :D
could be construed to be ridicule of another's belief, which is clearly against forum rules.

To everyone:

Asking for an explanation is fine, however arguing with the explanation is not. Let's all play nicely.

Peace,
~VOW

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 04:50 PM

LOL! Good luck! I'll pray for you. LOL!

Thanks, Don. She handled it well, probably because she overslept her nap. :)

I don't know if this link points to where you mean for it to. If so, I don't get the answer. First off, I don't have a "Maccabees" book in my Bible. Second, I assume your referring to "the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." If that is that what you're referring to I don't see how that addresses my post.

It was actually for Chloe.

God Bless,

Neal

Chloe

4th September 2002, 04:54 PM

I'm sorry, but it still does not answer my question as to why the saints in heaven would have to pray, considering they could simply speak to God face to face.

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by VOW
[B]To lambslove:

You have received answers from people in this very thread about what "pray to" means. Continuing to dwell upon your personal interpretation of the word is unnecessary. Again, you are not required to "pray" to anyone; and you cannot judge another for asking a "dead saint" to pray for them.

Further, this remark by you:

could be construed to be ridicule of another's belief, which is clearly against forum rules.

What a giant non-answer! What about the idea of encouraging a relationship with st jude? You skipped over that. What about the idea of turning to st jude instead of turning to Christ? No answer? Why nurture a relationship with jude?

If you took it as ridicule, sorry. I was laughing at the idea of praying to someone simply because they have access to God. I have access to God, would you ever dream of praying to me? Of course not! Nor would I want you to. The idea of praying to jude is as ludicrous. If that is what your faith teaches, then it is a bad teaching.

I would rather have you be mad at me than for me to allow you to continue an idolatrous relationship with jude. If you conscrue my honest concern for your soul to be riduculing you, so be it.

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 04:58 PM

But notice it is the prayers of the saints, it is not inferring that they are the prayers of saints that are in heaven. It is instead referring to the saints that are living.

Then, Chloe, you've got a problem. :) The twenty-four elders are in Heaven at the foot of the Lamb of God. If they are offering the prayers of the saints on earth to the Lamb from their bowls, then you have saints in Heaven offering the prayers of the saints on earth to Christ. Sounds very Catholic to me. ;)

As far as Maccabees, it is as far as I am concerned and by many authoritative scholars that 1 or 2 Maccabees was not inspired by God and therefore is not recognized as holding any authority.

It was in the first Christian Canon drawn up in the mid 380's, and was in the Septuagint for hundreds of years before that, so I'll keep it in my Bible as authoritative. At the very least, it shows that the basis for the Catholic thought was accepted within Judaism long before Christ was born, and therefore wasn't a "new invention of the Pagan Roman Church after Constantine," as some assert.

God Bless,

Neal

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 05:03 PM

How could God know ahead of time something that is left to our free will?

He is omniscient.

Did He not have any control over what she would say?

He prepared her through the gift of the Immaculate Conception. I would say that was an assertion of control, but it still left her with free will.

Sovereign means that God decrees that something will happen a certain way and it does not deviate from that exact decree.

Who says our free will was not part of the original decree?

Neal

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by isshinwhat
It was actually for Chloe.

God Bless,

Neal

Ooops!

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 05:07 PM

it still does not answer my question as to why the saints in heaven would have to pray, considering they could simply speak to God face to face.

Any time you ask someone anything, you are praying to them. Our culture uses the term pray mostly in reference to closing your eyes and petitioning God for something, but that is not the original sense of the word, nor is it how Catholics use the term in regards to Saints. Pray=Ask, nothing more.

Neal

Reformationist

4th September 2002, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by isshinwhat
Who says our free will was not part of the original decree?

Neal

I feel silly even saying this because the two (free will and God's sovereign decree) seem at odds with each other, but, I'll try again.  If your will was decreed and is subject to God's authority do you really insist that it is still "free."  We are talking about "free" right?  As in "free from external influence?"  If your will is influenced by anything separate from yourself, it's not free.  Now God, His Will is as close to free as it gets.  He is not, however, free to do some things.  Therefore, His Will isn't even completely free.

Now, if you're talking about our ability to make certain choices, then I would say we are most definitely capable of that.  However, those choices are limited by so many things (which I'll name if you so desire) that the concept of our will not be subject to outside influence is utterly incongrous.

God bless.

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 05:14 PM

pray
v. prayed, pray·ing, prays

v. intr.

1. To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.

2. To make a fervent request or entreaty.

v. tr.
1. To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
2. To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
3. To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.
4. To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English preien, from Old French preier, from Latin precr, from prec, pl. of *prex, prayer. See prek- in Indo-European Roots.]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 05:19 PM

Now, if you're talking about our ability to make certain choices, then I would say we are most definitely capable of that. However, those choices are limited by so many things (which I'll name if you so desire) that the concept of our will not be subject to outside influence is utterly incongrous.

I use free will with the understanding that our nature is limited. So how is "as free as our nature will allow," for my definition of free will.

But I cannot agree that God's will is not free.

God Bless,

Neal

isshinwhat

4th September 2002, 05:34 PM

What about the idea of encouraging a relationship with st jude?

I would encourage all members of the Body of Christ to develop a relationship with eachother through proper understanding.

What about the idea of turning to st jude instead of turning to Christ?

Nowhere in the prayer was it even insinuated that one was to turn to St. Jude to the exclusion of Christ. Any prayer to a Saint is made in addition to a personal petition to Christ. Asking any member of the Body of Christ for their prayers is not ignoring Christ.

Why nurture a relationship with jude?

Why are any of us here nurturing our relationships? To help each other grow in love of Christ. Those who are weak are pulled up by those who are stronger in the faith by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I have access to God, would you ever dream of praying to me? Of course not! Nor would I want you to. The idea of praying to jude is as ludicrous. If that is what your faith teaches, then it is a bad teaching.

In post #65 I did just that. I made an earnest request that you turn your prayers to the Father that I would be aided in dealing with a potentially angry fiancee. (She wasn't, by the way, so thank you all).

And lambslove, please refrain from calling any aspect of a Christian denomination's belief structure "ludicrous" or any of their teachings "bad." That is against the Forum's rules, and does not foster the growth and understanding we strive for here.

Thank you, and God Bless,

Neal

ZiSunka

4th September 2002, 06:09 PM

I'm sorry, but whenever I see someone try to weaken the deity of Christ by elevating Mary and the saints to the role of intercessor, it makes me angry. :mad:

They are just people and it ticks me off that some folks go around trying to get people's faith away from Christ and onto mere humans, living or dead. I think that it is a ludicrous idea, and a dangerous one. This is not even a forum for catholics. If you want to foster your belief system without making us angry, go back to your own forum and leave us to discuss our beliefs without an argument from you.

If understanding is what you are really striving for, then you should try to understand us as you expect us to do for you. All you've done here is tell us why we are "wrong," without even thinking for a minute that sometimes we don't want catholics to be part of the discussion.

You can dish it, but you can't take it.

By the way, you cannot have a relationship with a dead person.

Chloe

4th September 2002, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by isshinwhat
Then, Chloe, you've got a problem. :) The twenty-four elders are in Heaven at the foot of the Lamb of God. If they are offering the prayers of the saints on earth to the Lamb from their bowls, then you have saints in Heaven offering the prayers of the saints on earth to Christ. Sounds very Catholic to me. ;)

It was in the first Christian Canon drawn up in the mid 380's, and was in the Septuagint for hundreds of years before that, so I'll keep it in my Bible as authoritative. At the very least, it shows that the basis for the Catholic thought was accepted within Judaism long before Christ was born, and therefore wasn't a "new invention of the Pagan Roman Church after Constantine," as some assert.

God Bless,

Neal

In Revelation 8, there is no mention of the 24 elders offering up anything, and in Rev 5:8, it does not mention anything about our prayers being directed to the elders.  And you also have a major problem, you would only be able to have 24 saints whom you could pray to, if that indeed was the context of the passage, which it is not.  Again, the bible does not tell us that we are to ask or pray to anyone in heaven, other than God.  I am well aware what "pray" means, and it makes no difference at all, as the Bible does not teach communication of any sort to those who are in God's presence.