Is it inevitable? [Archive] - Christian Forums

akolouthein

4th October 2005, 09:48 PM

cableguy

5th October 2005, 02:20 AM

Did the ELCA provide a counter argument to this essay?

akolouthein

5th October 2005, 01:04 PM

Did the ELCA provide a counter argument to this essay?

No sir, not that I am aware of. If so I would love to see it. I will be honest is saying I have no idea if the Lutheran Journal of Ethics is formally associated with the ELCA or is just a general Lutheran magazine. I think I assumed it was associated with the ELCA because the link in my email came from the ELCA's website. If they are associated with the ELCA I suppose I find it odd this article made it into publication but perhaps they feel that side of the argument STILL needs to be heard :sigh: . I'm having a hard time right now and I can't seem to get many members of the ELCA to talk about this. It seems to be kind of a taboo thing like "well they voted on it so maybe it will just go away." I don't think so. I think this fight is loooong from over.

akolouthein

5th October 2005, 01:08 PM

I suppose they are associated. I took the time to check real fast and this is what their website says:

JLE is published by the Department for Studies (http://www.elca.org/dcs/studies) of the Division for Church in Society (http://www.elca.org/dcs) of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (http://www.elca.org/) (ELCA). It speaks out of the ELCA’s "Confession of Faith (http://www.elca.org/os/constitution/cw02.html)" and seeks to enhance its life and mission in society by offering an open forum to clarify, deepen, and enliven Lutheran ethics.

It does say it is an open forum so perhaps they publish most anything to do with Lutheran ethics. I'm not "damning" the magazine per se, just noticing that the subject is far from over.

cableguy

5th October 2005, 02:23 PM

Yeesh. You'd think if they put something like that in they'd have an essay from a conservative point of view, like maybe an essay from the folks at WordAlone....it is an open forum isn't it?

This issue isn't Tabboo to anyone, I don't think, on this forum. The challenge is trying to write something that hasn't already been said. Give it some time, you'll have somebody (Danhead?) pick apart the essay you linked here. In responce I'm sure you''ll have some one put a defence in for it.

akolouthein

5th October 2005, 02:32 PM

cableguy

5th October 2005, 05:22 PM

Here's a good link for you, a counter argument if you will. Very good article.

http://www.wordalone.org/nr/observations-2005.htm

Protoevangel

5th October 2005, 05:37 PM

Give it some time, you'll have somebody (Danhead?) pick apart the essay you linked here.
Gee, my reputation preceeds me? :blush: :P

akolouthein

5th October 2005, 10:40 PM

Here's a good link for you, a counter argument if you will. Very good article.

http://www.wordalone.org/nr/observations-2005.htm

Thanks for the article mate. I would really like to hear from some here what they are feeling the future of the ELCA will be.

Protoevangel

6th October 2005, 12:50 AM

akolouthein

6th October 2005, 06:07 PM

The future of the ELCA?

Short term, I don't think anything drastic will happen. I think we will continure to slowly loose members and congregations. These issues will resurface. Just like last time, the ELCA will push their agenda regardless of the divisiveness and harm it causes. The issues will eventually be pushed through.

Ack :eek: , yea that's what I'm fearing. Oh well I might as well resign myself to the fact that I'm probably going to switch churches. I'm beliving in the Calvanistic truths (my words no offense intended) and in some round about way, God lead me there. Its really sad what is happening to many churches. I'm seeing the beginning of the end starting to form. Whatever the case I'm going to keep praying these issues do not push through.

KEPLER

6th October 2005, 07:48 PM

Ack :eek: , yea that's what I'm fearing. Oh well I might as well resign myself to the fact that I'm probably going to switch churches. I'm beliving in the Calvanistic truths (my words no offense intended) and in some round about way, God lead me there. Its really sad what is happening to many churches. I'm seeing the beginning of the end starting to form. Whatever the case I'm going to keep praying these issues do not push through.

**WARNING** LCMS Lurker Alert (waves White Flag)

I have nothing of debate to say...Just a mention to akolouthein, that in the Presbyterian Churches you will find the same issues and similar struggles as all the Lutherans are struggling with.

ELCA--> PCUSA
LCMS --> PCA
WELS --> OPC (Orthodox PC)

The PCUSA is facing the same kinds of issues as the ELCA. Going to the Calvinists won't solve the problem!

akolouthein

6th October 2005, 08:02 PM

**WARNING** LCMS Lurker Alert (waves White Flag)

I have nothing of debate to say...Just a mention to akolouthein, that in the Presbyterian Churches you will find the same issues and similar struggles as all the Lutherans are struggling with.

ELCA--> PCUSA
LCMS --> PCA
WELS --> OPC (Orthodox PC)

The PCUSA is facing the same kinds of issues as the ELCA. Going to the Calvinists won't solve the problem!

I'm Going to a PCA church. I researched what their mission statement was before attending. Seems much more conservative. If it wasn't for the 5 points of Calvanism really taking hold of me, I might have considered LCMS.

I remember asking about the differences on the reformed boards and someone said "liberal PCA is better than conservative PCUSA" and I was like :eek:. I wanted conservative and that's what I got. Great people there, not that there isn't at the ELCA church. But I've got more than one call and letter appreciating how I came to worship and both pastors are looking forward to sitting down and speaking with me. One has his doctorate and I really look forward to picking his brain. I'm not basing my church decision on these acts of kindness but they are nice.

stumpjumper

9th October 2005, 01:36 PM

I'm Going to a PCA church. I researched what their mission statement was before attending. Seems much more conservative. If it wasn't for the 5 points of Calvanism really taking hold of me, I might have considered LCMS.

I have an interesting perspective of the difference between ELCA and PCA Churches (you could also throw Catholicism in there as well but then this would be a really long post). I attend an ELCA Church and have been following all the goings on in the synod. My Church is more liberal than conservative and I am generally liberal theologically though not neccessarily socially or politically. Because of that fact, I have had a few conversations with some of the more conservative members of our Church a few of whom have left ELCA because of the recent deliberations.

Theologically a case could be made for allowing homosexuals into the clergy but I know you don't want to get into a discussion about that. What I will say is that those who left our Church over this issue argued primarily social or secular arguments and that was generally main sticking point. Personally, I find that a bit upsetting that they would leave a Church community that they loved because of a social argument. Nothing whatsoever was going to change at our Church ir any Church if the changes were made. The individual Churches still have the ability to call whatever Pastor they wish. Our female is here to stay and so no change would have been expected in our Church.

Anyway, to the PCA my sister attends one in Lancaster County and I have visited a few times. There is very little in common between the reformed theology and ELCA's theology. Her Church teaches Biblical Creation to the children as well as adults. That might be something you would want to look into before you join a PCA, myself I would end up arguing with the Pastor to no end :D

akolouthein

9th October 2005, 02:22 PM

I have an interesting perspective of the difference between ELCA and PCA Churches (you could also throw Catholicism in there as well but then this would be a really long post). I attend an ELCA Church and have been following all the goings on in the synod. My Church is more liberal than conservative and I am generally liberal theologically though not neccessarily socially or politically. Because of that fact, I have had a few conversations with some of the more conservative members of our Church a few of whom have left ELCA because of the recent deliberations.

Theologically a case could be made for allowing homosexuals into the clergy but I know you don't want to get into a discussion about that. What I will say is that those who left our Church over this issue argued primarily social or secular arguments and that was generally main sticking point. Personally, I find that a bit upsetting that they would leave a Church community that they loved because of a social argument. Nothing whatsoever was going to change at our Church ir any Church if the changes were made. The individual Churches still have the ability to call whatever Pastor they wish. Our female is here to stay and so no change would have been expected in our Church.

Anyway, to the PCA my sister attends one in Lancaster County and I have visited a few times. There is very little in common between the reformed theology and ELCA's theology. Her Church teaches Biblical Creation to the children as well as adults. That might be something you would want to look into before you join a PCA, myself I would end up arguing with the Pastor to no end :D

Thank you for your concern. I've been attending one of the PCA churches here and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I've spoken with the pastor and since I've fully adopted the 5 points of Calvinism and the Westminster confession, I have no arguments at all with the church. I am glad to have been led this way because I know it was led by God. I am sure God lead us all in different ways. I hope to keep close contact with the ELCA church that I am currently apart of. I desire to see them grow away from liberal agendas and I really hope I am wrong about the direction the ELCA is headed. There are some very conservative people in that church but they are mostly elderly and after they are gone....Anyway, thanks again for you concern. God bless you and yours.

Grace and peace to you

Fish and Bread

15th October 2005, 02:39 PM

Just like last time, the ELCA will push their agenda regardless of the divisiveness and harm it causes. The issues will eventually be pushed through.

Isn't the leadership of ELCA representative of the people in the pews? I'm not very familar with how Lutheran denominations are organized, but I thought that the leadership was elected, at least indirectly. If that's the case, isn't it really the people pushing what they view as God's agenda on themselves? :) I can understand why someone would say a denomination organized around democratic lines might not be following God's theology, but they're certainly following the theology of their membership (Which may or may not be God's) in most cases, aren't they?

John

Tetzel

15th October 2005, 04:32 PM

LCMS lurker alert*

Have you tried LCMS or WELS?

akolouthein

16th October 2005, 12:57 AM

LCMS lurker alert*

Have you tried LCMS or WELS?

I thought of trying LCMS but I just have a hard time with the local LCMS having closed communion.

Tetzel

16th October 2005, 01:49 AM

How can adjusting to a different rule about the administration of a sacrament bother you more than a fundamental theological difference in the view of what the sacrament is?

When I started going to LCMS services instead of ELCA services, I wasn't happy about not getting communion, but at least I knew that when I could get it, it would be the same as before.

Music4Hym777

16th October 2005, 08:31 PM

FROM A TEENAGE LUTHERAN!!!

Hey Ya'll,

I honestly dont think that it is going to go anywhere. I am part of the Lutheran Student Movement which are basically the next generation of Lutherans and there was a lot of debate about it, but not enough to let it pass through our hands and into the action. The LSM battled it for 6 LONG hours of formal debate! It was rediculous, but the consensus came back that there were not enough people for it to even put it into motion.

Usually the ELCA recognizes the LSM as a pretty big part of what to do since we are the future generation. We have the RIC branch of the ELCA, but they are pretty quiet and as long as you allow them to do their thing they dont make a lot of noise.

In my eyes it is mostly the conservatives that are freaking out and dont want anything to happen to make us any more liberal. If we keep things the way they are, which is how everyone seems to like them and let the RIC keep on going, I dont think we will have any problems with it. It might happen years down the road, but I dont see it happening anytime soon (as in the next 20-30 years).

Just from a Teenage Lutheran,
Monica

ctobola

19th October 2005, 09:32 PM

I thought of trying LCMS but I just have a hard time with the local LCMS having closed communion.

Akolouthein,

It sounds like you have some real concerns about the direction of the ELCA. I can relate, as I was absolutely distraught when we decided to enter into the agreement with the Episcopalians. (That's another story.)

For me, it came down to realizing that I don't live my faith at the level of denominiations... and they have become a real distraction from what the Church really is.

I belong to a congregation of believers. Period. The congregation where I worship is affiliated with the ELCA, but that isn't the focus of who we are. We are a body of believers in this community and that is the important thing.

I think you are right to have hesitations about the LCMS and WELS. The whole issue of close communion sends a very clear message regarding what they are about.

I'd enjoy dialoging more with you; and I'm also going to start a thread about the nature of the Gospel and the Church that will likely speak to some of the issues you're struggling with.

In Christ, -Cloy

Protoevangel

20th October 2005, 12:49 AM

I belong to a congregation of believers. Period. The congregation where I worship is affiliated with the ELCA, but that isn't the focus of who we are. We are a body of believers in this community and that is the important thing.

I think you are right to have hesitations about the LCMS and WELS. The whole issue of close communion sends a very clear message regarding what they are about.
How arrogant!

It's OK to be ELCA, even if they do teach it's OK to murder innocent babies, and even if they do place themselves above Holy Scripture, (you see, that's not the focus of who we are), but... stay away from those LCMS and WELS churches, they practice close Communion (and of course, that is the focus of who they are)!!!

ctobola

21st October 2005, 10:37 PM

How arrogant!

It's OK to be ELCA, even if they do teach it's OK to murder innocent babies, and even if they do place themselves above Holy Scripture, (you see, that's not the focus of who we are), but... stay away from those LCMS and WELS churches, they practice close Communion (and of course, that is the focus of who they are)!!!

Dan,

Please don't accuse me of arrogance. That's hurtful.

I agree that the ELCA needs to change it's stance on abortion -- and I'm going to stay here and fight for that change.

But when it comes down to the issue of being too tolerant, I think that's much less of a sin than being separatist and self-righteous. (The Pharisees said the same of Jesus -- "Look, he associates with prostitutes and tax collectors.")

The difference is that implementing a "we're right and you're wrong" mentality (and you're correct -- that's who they are... and that's the message they send to the world) totally shuts off communication and prevents people from hearing the message of the Gospel.

I guess it comes down to whether you consider the Church a museum for saints, or a hospital for sinners.

I would never consider my brothers and sisters in the WELS/LCMS to be outside the Church... but I think the message they're sending is not what they intend to communicate.

Hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from.

In Christ, -Cloy

Protoevangel

22nd October 2005, 04:48 AM

Please don't accuse me of arrogance. That's hurtful.
Yes, that was out of line. I am sorry. I will try to focus on the argument, instead of assigning a motive to that argument.

I agree that the ELCA needs to change it's stance on abortion -- and I'm going to stay here and fight for that change.

But when it comes down to the issue of being too tolerant, I think that's much less of a sin than being separatist and self-righteous. (The Pharisees said the same of Jesus -- "Look, he associates with prostitutes and tax collectors.")
Two thoughts:
One - You have asserted, but not demonstrated that close Communion equates to, or is based on, “self-righteousness”. Like you, I disagree with the practice of close Communion, but I am much more concerned about the piece of lumber in my own synod's eye than I am about declaring my judgment upon their synod, for their spec!
Two - Even assuming, purely for the sake of the conversation, that close communion were based on self-righteousness, is that really so much worse of a sin than condoning the torture and mass murder of of innocent children? Once again, spec/log.

The difference is that implementing a "we're right and you're wrong" mentality (and you're correct -- that's who they are... and that's the message they send to the world) totally shuts off communication and prevents people from hearing the message of the Gospel.

I guess it comes down to whether you consider the Church a museum for saints, or a hospital for sinners.
Or perhaps it comes down to whether the Church will stand for the truth despite the direction the culture is heading. Your assumption that the LCMS and WELS reject sinners is unfounded and scandalous. You are presupposing their guilt, and making your accusation in a forum where they are not allowed to defend themselves. That is bad form.

I would never consider my brothers and sisters in the WELS/LCMS to be outside the Church... but I think the message they're sending is not what they intend to communicate.
So let's concentrate on their spec? Talk about how bad they are while covering up the blood on our hands? Is that your answer?

Hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from.
Once again, I don't think you were any less clear in your previous post.

Willy

23rd October 2005, 07:52 PM

cableguy

24th October 2005, 04:52 AM

I'm a part of the ELCA and very proud of it. I and we don't promote murdering innocent children and do not place ourselves above the scriptures. I wonder what kind of ELCA congregations you hang out with. I've been in scores of them and haven't once heard advocacy for murdering children. I have been at many synodical assemblies and national assemblies and haven't heard this kind of talk either. They must be hiding this agenda from me.

So you haven't read the ELCA social statement on abortion?

http://www.elca.org/socialstatements/abortion/

Lutherans for Life have a very good argument against this social statement, though right now I can't link it here. I'm sure if you go to their web site you can find it. http://www.lutheransforlife.org/index.htm

Willy

24th October 2005, 08:39 AM

Yes, I have read the ELCA's statement on abortion. Actually I have studied it and taught a class on it. Nowhere does it advocate the murdering of innocent babies. The statement reflects the ambiguities of a church that is brave enough to proclaim that some issues are extremely complex--so complex that easy answers will not suffice. Actually, if you read the statement, you will note its strong predilection toward the preservation of life.

Protoevangel

24th October 2005, 04:55 PM

I'm a part of the ELCA and very proud of it.
You go on being proud of being ELCA all you want, Willy. The only thing I will take pride in is being in Christ. Whether it is the forearm of the ELCA or the thigh of the LCMS or the spine of the Orthodox Church, pride does not enter the equation. I have no room for pride in denomination.

...and we don't promote murdering innocent children...
First of all, I did not make the claim that the ELCA promotes the murder. What I did say was that they teach it is OK. There is a very real difference there. If the ELCA actively promoted abortion, there would be no way I could, in good conscience, cooperate with anything the ELCA were a part of. Even still, I have incredible grief that the ELCA teaches that it is ever acceptable to kill an innocent child, for any reason, save perhaps to save the life of the mother.

That the ELCA does teach that murdering babies is acceptable is clear in the ELCA social statement on abortion. It accepts abortion in circumstances such as fetal abnormality and in cases of rape and incest. Beyond these cases "this church neither supports nor opposes" other abortion-restricting legislation.

At the ELCA's 1997 convention in Orlando, a resolution to restrict ELCA funding of abortions to the above cases stated above was rejected 809-121. Actually, that very close to "promoting", dosen’t it?
http://www.wfn.org/1997/08/msg00159.html

ELCA health insurance still covers any elective abortion up to and including the 20th week of pregnancy, as explained in "Detailed information about the ELCA Health Benefits Plan for 2005" http://www.elcabop.org/resources_tools/downloads/pdf/100_05_healthspd.pdf.

A number of ELCA-affiliated hospitals perform elective abortions. Imagine that... ELCA affiliated hospitals profiting from the murder of innocent children. Again, this sounds very close to "promoting" to me.

soccerguy2594

28th October 2005, 11:54 PM

I feel the main point in any church discussion is whether the topic is church dividing (like the first 4 eccumenical counsels). I think the point was made strongly at the ELCA convention as well as with the task force that this is NOT church dividing.

Whether or not you agree with the decision made at the national convention the way to handle this discussion is not the pick up your toys and go home (i.e. leave the church). There are many Catholics that would love to see women ordained and stay in the Catholic church in order to hopefully reform it. Once you leave you lose your voice. if the church is always reforming then this issue needs to be addressed head on. People have tried to keep the topic of sexuality (straight or homosexuality) out of the church because it wasn't viewed as something the church should talk about. However, if our faith is to pervade our lives then it has to pervade the topic of sexuality.

The ELCA has not been around for a very long time ('87 I think) and some feel it was on shaky ground when it was formed. The key is that we can still be "church" and disagree on some topics. As long as it has no bearing on Salvation (which it does not) then we can disagree.

Willy

29th October 2005, 11:40 PM

Hey Soccer guy. What do you mean by "salvation?"

soccerguy2594

31st October 2005, 11:48 AM

In the most general terms by salvation I mean, "your relationship with God." Whether or not you believe the ELCA should bless homosexual unions or ordain practicing homosexuals does not effect the grace of God in your life. Whatever your stance on this issue is, that stance does not put you "outside the church" or "outside the realm of God." So we can learn to live together in this ambiguity.

Does that answer your question, Willy?

Willy

31st October 2005, 04:42 PM

I suppose it does. Often when people talk about salvation they mean "going to heaven." I don't think that's particularly Biblical or helpful. Ultimately, I don't see salvation simply as a personal affair. Ultimately it involves the redemption of all that is. Also I would see salvation as being related to healing. The church does rise and fall on the notion that ultimate healing (for the self and all creation) comes not from us but from God. It is not a matter of right action or belief. It is a gift of God's grace. You are right, soccer guy, it is this that ultimately matters. A whole lot of other stuff, while important, is not ultimate. The church does not rise and fall on views of human sexuality. I agree. Did you ever think of seminary? The church needs pastors!

soccerguy2594

3rd November 2005, 04:17 PM

I agree completely Willy. I think salvation is primarily a communal concept. Individual salvation ("me and my buddy Jesus") is such a western thought. We draw this from our very individualistic way of looking at life. While I think a personal relationship with God is a good thing, I believe the concept ("have you accepted the lord as your personal savior?") is used to separate people from each other - the "in crowd." Of course there are other problems with that question the main one being the underlying notion that we can choose. I mean really. If left to our own reason and power I could not (and probably would not) choose God

[cff. 1 Cor 1:18-24 "For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart." 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, God decided, through the foolishness of our proclamation, to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks desire wisdom, 23 but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."]

As for Seminary...thanks for the compliment. If I go to seminary I would have to do an internship in a parish...would I get to choose who my supervisor was?

Willy

3rd November 2005, 06:33 PM

No, but you can interview them now. You can get a sense of whether the two of you would be a good match. I like working with seminary students.

soccerguy2594

3rd November 2005, 11:52 PM

I've been told I'm rather strong willed and "bold." I'm a strong individual which could intimidate those that would be my supervisors.

Could you handle that........Willy????

Willy

4th November 2005, 11:50 AM

Probably not!

soccerguy2594

4th November 2005, 06:48 PM

oh well....your loss.

Willy

5th November 2005, 03:08 PM

True. But I have been known to change my mind.

saami

12th November 2005, 08:09 PM

The future of the ELCA?

Short term, I don't think anything drastic will happen. I think we will continure to slowly loose members and congregations. These issues will resurface. Just like last time, the ELCA will push their agenda regardless of the divisiveness and harm it causes. The issues will eventually be pushed through.

What! becoming like Baptists who walk out on each other with every little tiff? I though we had more stick to it -ness. The gay clergy and members that got shot down aren't walking out even though they got ripped up and down at CWA. I was there - it was brutal.

We have failed our parishoners of they ever thought that Lutheranism or Christianity was anything but heterodox. We ahve always agreed on some very basic doctrines to hold us together - grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone and Scripture alone. Not a common hymnal or translation of the Bible, etc.)

achurchmouse

13th November 2005, 09:45 AM

I'm having a hard time being a member of the ELCA right now. They shot down the actively homosexual clergy vote and approval of gay marriage vote, for now, and then , i feel, slap us with a gender neutral hymnal. My wife's family were all raised in the ELCA and we talk about this alot. I just have a feeling a split is inevitable but they disagree. In their defense , they know much more about the ELCA and have grown up in it. I received an email from the Lutheran Journal of Ethics with an article of yet another person justifying homosexual ordination in the church (it seems to me). Please feel free to check it out here. Look , I'm not here to debate, if you think homosexuals should be allowed to be ministers then more power to ya, have fun. I just want to know where people think the ELCA is going and do you think it will be divided sooner or later. It seems to me that articles like this just let us know the fight is far from over.

http://www.elca.org/scriptlib/dcs/jle/article.asp?aid=604

1. With your concerns you should be happy - CWA "shot down" ordination of non-celibate gays.

2. The gender neutral hymnal is not about gays - but about women being about to see themselves in "God's image" Gen 1:27 and being honest with some texts that have been un-necessarly masculinized.

3. You can't have grown up in the ELCA since it has existed only since 1988. And since the ELCA said no to rostering non-celibate gays (many of whom are leagally married) they should be happy because then the church will not split.

4. The ELCA and all other churches have ordained closeted and celibate gays since who knows when - the first ordinations.

My answer to you question - will it divide? NO - because it is too easy to keep being unjust to a minority who because they are Lutheran and believe the Lutheran Church teaches the truth of the Gospel will be satying by and large in the ELCA. Only the conservatives will think of leaving - and they can join Missouri - who seem to tip the scale towards Gospel plus some other believes are what saves. (Jesus' death, plus believing that the Historical Critical Method of interpretation is wrong,plus believing that the Bible is inerrant (adding to the Bible's claims for itself) plus believing that homosexulaity is somehow uniquely disqualifying among sins unlike lying, divorce,etc., plus believing God is actually "Father" = male and that is not just a metaphor, plus... plus...

Grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, Scripture alone

Melethiel

13th November 2005, 10:53 AM

2. The gender neutral hymnal is not about gays - but about women being about to see themselves in "God's image" Gen 1:27 and being honest with some texts that have been un-necessarly masculinized.

I don't need to see myself in God's image by singing gender-neutral hymns, thank you very much. The new "hymnal" is a travesty and flies in the face of millenia of church tradition. Christianity is a patriarchal religion. Get over it. If women need so badly to see themselves in God's image, they can go be Wiccan.

KagomeShuko

13th November 2005, 09:05 PM

Usually, when one says that they grew up in the ELCA, it means they grew up in one of the Lutheran branches that formed the ELCA. I find it's usually LCA.

cableguy

19th November 2005, 04:45 AM

My answer to you question - will it divide? NO - because it is too easy to keep being unjust to a minority who because they are Lutheran and believe the Lutheran Church teaches the truth of the Gospel will be satying by and large in the ELCA. Only the conservatives will think of leaving - and they can join Missouri - who seem to tip the scale towards Gospel plus some other believes are what saves. (Jesus' death, plus believing that the Historical Critical Method of interpretation is wrong,plus believing that the Bible is inerrant (adding to the Bible's claims for itself) plus believing that homosexulaity is somehow uniquely disqualifying among sins unlike lying, divorce,etc., plus believing God is actually "Father" = male and that is not just a metaphor, plus... plus...

Interesting you should say only "conservative" lutherans....

http://www.wordalone.org/docs/wa-ny-metro-gays.htm

http://www.elca.org/news/Releases.asp?a=3264

http://www.mnys.org/headlines/special_meeting_report.html

RayJGentry

26th May 2006, 04:05 AM

i think that a church will split from the ELCA in the next ten to twenty years. word alone really got going with the CCM issue with the episcopal church and with the risk that the assembly will pass something in my timespan that will infururiate many congregations is rather likely. only around forty percent of the synods actively approved of CCM, yet it was passed by eighty-two percent or so at the national assembly.

in my opinon the odds are good that something will pass that a majority of the synods and individual congregations weren't willing to support and organizations like word alone will gain more support and be able to branch off. this will effectively lean the national assembly even more left. now i don't think that being more liberal is a bad thing. however the ELCA is seen as a left church, while i'd guess that the individual congregations are more in the middle, even if many are left leaning.

i've heard lately that some people in word alone (Dr Dennis Biefeldt is the one i've heard of, along with others) are working on an alternate ordination option for candidates who disagree with the passing of CCM. now this could create another rift (albeit a largely academic and not widespread one) that will mobilize them further. however i don't think anything will happen until the member, congregations and possibly synods feel they've been betrayed enough. CCM wasn't enough because it was largely academic and a majority of congregations have still not and will not feel the affects of it at all.

i know this is a rather rough post, but as you can see it's late. i need to get some sleep and give Dr Biefeldt a call and see exaclty what's going on. so far it's really hear-say, but i'll get it ironed out. i'll also repost and correct anything i've said that doesn't make sense or is blatently off base. as i said i'm tired, but i did need to chime in. so if you strongly disagree with something, let me know, but don't tear me apart quite yet, i need to process. i love you all and God Bless :D

God's Peace, Love, Wisdom and JOY!
Spankin' the Devil,

Ray J Gentry IV