My first trip into an Orthodox Church.

[e=mv^2]

It may surprise you but I have actually been inside an Orthodox Church. Erm.. maybe it wouldn't but it should....

Anyhoo..
A little over a year ago I went on a fishing trip to Alaska with my Dad and 2 other guys. While we were there we stopped at this small church in Ninilchik.
http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50988

The priest was giving tours of the church so we decided to hang around and have a look.
There is a cemetary at the church:
http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50989

We waited for a bit and soon enough the priest come out and invited us in:
http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50990

He took us inside and gave us a nice little "tour" of ths one room church.

http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50991

At the end he almost managed to turn me off of Orthodoxy forever.
He started selling stuff. INSIDE the sanctuary he had a table with postcards trinkets and jewelry for sale. I was personally crushed and all I would think of was:
(Joh 2:16) And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house a house of merchandise.


This church is incredibly poor. They need money badly The poor priest had holes in his robes and his shoes were worn. Does that excuse turning the sanctuary into a market?

Back in August:
e decides that he will ignore the Alaska experience and investigate the Orthodox Church again. He works up the nerve (with the help of his new friends at TAW) to contact someone. He finds a church in his area and learns that there is a Catechism class scheduled! He calls the church and gets the number of a person that is the head of Catechism.
He talks to the person and learns that the Catechism is actually a "Sunday School" and not what he needs. The person says that he will talk to the father and get back to him.
e never gets a call back.

e decides that he is going to find out about this no matter what difficulty is set before him. People are imperfect right?

e goes back ot the church website and emails the priest. e asks about catechism classes and the priest tells him... to come to the church and buy a book for $15.

I bought the book. I am almost done with it now. I am also very lonely and a bit put off.

What is your point e?

My point is this:
If anyone ever asks you about Christianity. Please do not tell them to go buy a book. At the very least provide a used copy of the book for a person to borrow. Please do not forget to return phone calls. If you tell someone that you are going to call them back - do so. If your parish does not have Catechism classes - please start them. I can tell you that it is very lonely doing the catechism from a book by yourself.
And if your church is in need of funds, please move the merchandise outside the sanctuary. If you turn one person away they may never ask again.

Thank you all for your prayers. Please pray for me.

-e

[Khaleas]

I've been there too! It's a pretty little church at a very pretty location. It was closed when I went though... I wish it had been open.

That area is very, very poor and to keep afloat at all they have to sell things. Think about it, most churches sell candles inside the church. The cathedral in Helsinki has a rather large little shop in the church. There is just no other place for it and they just all have to stay afloat.

[Monica, child of God]

A little over a year ago I went on a fishing trip to Alaska with my Dad and 2 other guys. While we were there we stopped at this small church in Ninilchik.

What a quaint little church...

At the end he almost managed to turn me off of Orthodoxy forever. He started selling stuff. INSIDE the sanctuary he had a table with postcards trinkets and jewelry for sale.

Good for you for hanging in there and not letting a confusing experience put you off :) BTW, he could not have sold things in the sanctuary. The sanctuary of an Orthodox Church is the altar area.

I was personally crushed and all I would think of was:

This church is incredibly poor. They need money badly The poor priest had holes in his robes and his shoes were worn.

Probably very true. Lord have mercy :crosseo:

Does that excuse turning the sanctuary into a market?

I will get to this later...

He talks to the person and learns that the Catechism is actually a "Sunday School" and not what he needs. The person says that he will talk to the father and get back to him.
e never gets a call back.

Sorry about that! Could he/she have lost your number? Benefit of the doubt and all that...

e decides that he is going to find out about this no matter what difficulty is set before him. People are imperfect right?

Good on ya.

e goes back ot the church website and emails the priest. e asks about catechism classes and the priest tells him... to come to the church and buy a book for $15.

I bought the book. I am almost done with it now. I am also very lonely and a bit put off.

Oh. Sorry. Perhaps we can help you find a church with inquiry/catechism classes? Where are you again?

My point is this:
If anyone ever asks you about Christianity. Please do not tell them to go buy a book. At the very least provide a used copy of the book for a person to borrow.

Very true. Did we offer at one point to help you buy books on line? I am sure that the offer is still good.

Please do not forget to return phone calls. If you tell someone that you are going to call them back - do so. If your parish does not have Catechism classes - please start them. I can tell you that it is very lonely doing the catechism from a book by yourself.

Too true. Hang in there e.

And if your church is in need of funds, please move the merchandise outside the sanctuary. If you turn one person away they may never ask again.

Yes, selling cards and books and things should happen outside of the nave. Just to warn you, you will see candles and little prosphora being sold in the narthex. The thing is technically the narthex is not in the church. It is the 'porch.' In the past it would have literally been a porch.

With re: to making the church a market. If you are refering to Christ clearing the temple in Matthew 21, the problem was that the house of prayer had become a den of robbers. As people exchanged money so that they could by animals to be offered, the money changers cheated and defrauded the poor. This is of course unacceptable. But it was not the exchange of money for goods itself that was wrong. In order to worship you needed a dove, a goat, a sheep etc. And if you a tentmaker or a metalsmith you might not have access to an unblemished animal of the right age when you needed it.

In our churches, we still make offerings of bread and wine and candles. In the past, these things were brought from home to the church. I still buy my candles and bring them to church. But, I don't see any problem with buying a small prosphora or a candle for $1. It is a small offering, a sacrafice. In the past offerings were costly and precious (perfume oil, prize animals, etc.) now they are just small tokens of devotion since we have no need of a real sacrafice. Hope this makes sense.

M.

[Happy Orthodox]

Well, there are all sorts of tests on the way that God prepares for us. And we meet all kinds of people in Orthodoxy, and not all of them are behaving as a Christian or even a curteous human should behave, some of these people are even priests. I have a friend whose conversion to Orthodoxy was greately delayed because he had bad experiences with some Orthodox people and even the priest. But if you care about the faith, there is nothing that can stop you. If you thirst for God, no obstacles should throw you off. My mom was dying at the time of our conversion, literally. She couldn't get up from her bed. I had to walk her to the bathroom. Doctors couldn't help. But she made an effort and we got baptised in a nice church (didn't need catechism classes :)). She was miraclously preserved by God from death, and now she is well, thank God. So, somebody can have worse experiences than you. We have a jewish saying in Russia, "nothing can be so bad, that it couldn't have been even worse." Just keep trying, search other Orthodox parishes, and you will find one that you feel better in.

[e=mv^2]

With re: to making the church a market. If you are refering to Christ clearing the temple in Matthew 21, the problem was that the house of prayer had become a den of robbers. As people exchanged money so that they could by animals to be offered, the money changers cheated and defrauded the poor. This is of course unacceptable. But it was not the exchange of money for goods itself that was wrong. In order to worship you needed a dove, a goat, a sheep etc. And if you a tentmaker or a metalsmith you might not have access to an unblemished animal of the right age when you needed it.
Why did he not only chase out the money changers then? Why also chase out the sellers? Why state "Make not my Father's house an house of Merchandise"? Why not "Do not cheat these people!"?

This is going to be a really sore topic. I did not know that candles etc. were for sale.

[Xpycoctomos]

E, wasn't this a one-room church? If so, was there anywhere else he could have sold the things? When I visit Churches that I want memories from, I am frustrated when they don't have postcards or anything. Was the priest pushy about buying the postcards and such? Perhaps he was, but if he wasn't, I don't see anything wrong with what he did.

I agree with Monica's point. I used to understand the the "den of thieves" as you did, meaing that selling anything at all at Church was wrong, unitl I learned about the cultural context, what they were selling, and that the people HAD to buy there stuff and get ripped off royally. I am not saying that Orthodox and Catholic Cathedrals the world over do not do this from time to time. As I have been in more Catholic countries in Europe, I can say that the extent of goods they sell in the sanctuary is exaggerated and has turned me off to. There is a balance between meeting the financial NEEDS of the Church, and making a living off of tourism and such.

I suppose I would have to ask myself if I were a priest in a small church in a very poor area of Alaska, and I had a fw visitors, would I not hope they would buy a few postcards and candles that could help make ends meet? As long as I am not ripping them off or convincing them that these goods will make them somehow holier or closer to God... then I don't see the problem.

Josh

PS: please don't take my post as jumping all over you. I really do understand where you are coming from... and honestly I may have reacted the same way in you place... even as an Orthodox! But, standing backa nd taking an objective look at the situation, I honestly don't think the priest did anything wrong.

[Orthosdoxa]

We have a bookstore in the church, but not in the nave, of course. Was this church literally so one room that there was nowhere to sell things?

And I am sad that the priest wasn't more welcoming. Are there any other parishes in the area?

:hug:

[Xpycoctomos]

Why did he not only chase out the money changers then? Why also chase out the sellers? Why state "Make not my Father's house an house of Merchandise"? Why not "Do not cheat these people!"?

This is going to be a really sore topic. I did not know that candles etc. were for sale.

Good questions.

I would say because it became ALL about the Merchandise for these people. They were there not for God, but for the money. They were vendors.

What about this priest you met? Do you think he was there for the money? Probably not, given your description of his situation and the situation of the general area.

He just wants to pay the electric bill and maybe... eat.

[Marjorie]

The churches need the faithful to give resources; that's even in the New Testament... read Paul's letters. As for those on the outside, though, they shouldn't have to pay for anything, IMO.

One of the most annoying things for me (this is not about you, e) is when people complain about how things like prayer ropes are expensive and so on. I once had a Mormon acquaintance tell me that CLEARLY his Church was more loving because they gave away free stuff. Of course, unlike the Mormons, the Orthodox Church is POOR, the priests often have to take on two or three jobs, the monasteries are always in danger of being shut down. Mormons own businesses and require faithful to give 10% of their own income. The LDS Church is loaded. The Orthodox Church relies on the offerings of humble souls.

Note that when the widow gave money to the Temple Jesus didn't say 'don't give money to the Temple. The Temple shouldn't require you to give money.'

Also note that the Church only asks for offerings for inessential things, like candles or books. The essential (i.e. the Holy Gifts) are free.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Marjorie]

Also, in my translation it doesn't say 'a house of merchandise' but 'a den of thieves,' which goes along well with the idea of exploiting the poor, and requiring them to pay money for the essential (Temple sacrifices.) But actual offerings to the religious establishment are never criticized by Jesus.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Xpycoctomos]

Mormons own businesses

do they ever. The "church" itself is not rich just because of the tithing of its faithful. They know how to work themselves around the market quite well.

[Monica, child of God]

Why did he not only chase out the money changers then? Why also chase out the sellers? Why state "Make not my Father's house an house of Merchandise"? Why not "Do not cheat these people!"?

Because they were all in on it.

Look at this the other way: God required that merchandise (live stock) be traded or aquired in order to worship Him in the Temple. There is nothing wrong with buying something to enhance worship, whether it is a prayer book or a Bible or an icon or a candle. The Orthodox do not shun material. Matter is "good" and can be used in worshiping the One who created it. In order to use matter (Bible, Song Book, candle or whatever) it must be acquired.

As for the candles and prosphora, I remember something that Bishop Kallistos said at a Lenten retreat. He said that we have a very poor idea of sacrafice. It is most commonly thought of like "giving something up for Lent." Taking on a petty discomfort in the name of God. But sacrafice is offering. The wise men offered their gifts. The female disciple offered her gift. We bring our tithes and offerings into the Temple in the New Israel as in the Old. That is all a candle or a prosphora is: a small offering. There is nothing unBiblical or unChristian about it.

M.

[e=mv^2]

Also, in my translation it doesn't say 'a house of merchandise' but 'a den of thieves,' which goes along well with the idea of exploiting the poor, and requiring them to pay money for the essential (Temple sacrifices.) But actual offerings to the religious establishment are never criticized by Jesus.

Different verse.

(Joh 2:14) And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

(Joh 2:15) And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

(Joh 2:16) And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house a house of merchandise.

(Joh 2:17) And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

vs..
(Mat 21:13) And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

(Mar 11:17) And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

(Luk 19:46) Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.


4 accounts of the same event. One of them states specifically:
(Mar 11:16) And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.

The word vessel is:
σκεῦος
skeuos
skyoo'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a vessel, implement, equipment or apparatus (literally or figuratively [specifically a wife as contributing to the usefulness of the husband]): - goods, sail, stuff, vessel.

[Marjorie]

Still, monetary offerings are never condemned by Jesus. One could argue at the most extreme point that he was against selling the animals for sacrifices because everyone needed to make sacrifices. But in Orthodoxy, one doesn't need to buy a candle or books or a million icons. One only needs the Holy Mysteries-- those are for any Orthodox Christian.

And also, you're seeing it from the outside. I have received SO MANY free gifts from various people at various points. Half the Orthodox 'stuff' I have was given freely by people who really do NOT have the resources for it.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[moses916]

ususally stuff are sold in the basement of a church or at the Church bookstore, however if the Church is only a big room, where else shall the priest sell items that we use in worshipping God?

[Marjorie]

Also, we converts can't have it every way. We are so big on active parishes, with outreach programs, and community service, and the ability to help out the less fortunate in the community... teen programs... women's groups... Bible studies... a tangible Orthodox presence... and then we want the church to have no resources? These things take resources, and in our modern world, that means money. We don't require the faithful to give 10% because as Christ said to Peter the children are free from tax. How then are we supposed to pay for everything we want the churches to do? Food festivals alone? And then people complain that we're making Orthodoxy into an ethnic thing.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[e=mv^2]

These things take resources, and in our modern world, that means money.
I never said I was against donating money to the church. That is a good thing. What is questionable to me is buying your catechism in the form of a book.

I have been severely turned off of things being sold in churches. At one baptist church near me (The one my parents, sister, aunt, cousins go to - heh.. no pressure there) has a preacher that would use the pulpit to sell his books *during the service*.
(Mat 10:6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Mat 10:7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

(Mat 10:8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

(Mat 10:9) Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

(Mat 10:10) Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.


I understand what you are saying re: non essentials but this is a big blow for me. Essentials or not. None should feel like they are supposed to buy something. Noone should have to feel like someone is going to see them bringing in a k-mart candle instead of buying one. Noone should feel pressure to buy anything. I suppose I am living in a dreamworld.

[Marjorie]

I misunderstood you; forgive me. Yes, having to buy your own catechism is a bit much. My priest gave me the books he thought I should read before converting.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Xpycoctomos]

Well, in the end none of us were there but you. I personally don't see anythign wrong with what the priest did, but other Orthodox woudl disagree with me. I suppose I would have had to ahve been there to correctly judge the situation from my POV... but I wasn't so I can only go on what you said, and I see nothign wrong with it. If he was really pushy then I agree with you that that wasn't cool. But I think it is always MUCH easier for us to be "cool" about things and seems virtuous when we have more resources.

I think selling books from the pul;pit during church is an entirely different thing then askign a visitor to buy some postcards and a book after having given you a tour or the one-room Church. I don't see any commonality between the two. Given the circumstances you have described, I would feel obliged to buy a postcard or two regardless of how pushy the priest in tattered robes was. Especially after his showing hospitality.

In the end... I don't really think this is a big deal. Sure, it turned you off, but you were clearly mature enough to realize that this has nothing to do with your search for the true Church. I agree that a Church not letting a seeker borrow a book (a chatechism... which is usually is a book) seems a bit miserly on the part of the book... but then again, I don't know what the circumstances of this church were. Anyway, I'm glad yo stuck wtih it anyway. Maybe all of this was to prepare for how very imperfect the Church is. Believe me, you will come across much more "stuff" that will turn you off over the years... even if and after you become Orthodox. But this won't change the fact of whether or not you believe that the Orthodox Church is the True Faith.

Keep on truckin' my frienda nd don't let the small stuff get to you (and it seems that you haven't let it really get to you... seeing you are still seeking :))

John

[e=mv^2]

But I think it is always MUCH easier for us to be "cool" about things and seems virtuous when we have more resources.
I have the resources. I do know that there are others that do not. That is one reason that this concerns me. What I am really afraid of is that this is a symptom of a priest being more concerned with the mortgage payment than he is with the spiritual needs of some jerk that walked in off the street.

So the catechism is normally just a book? There are not normally classes that are given?

[Dust and Ashes]

So the catechism is normally just a book? There are not normally classes that are given?

They are every Tuesday 7pm at our parish but we can't go since it's 2 hours away so we meet with Father once a month or so for private catechism and do a lot of reading, listening to cassettes and watching videos. I highly recommend Fr. David Anderson's video series if you can get them. We get them from the Church library.

[Orthosdoxa]

Catechism is normally classes. I took them for months and months, and continued taking them after becoming Orthodox, just because they were so wonderful. I think we all agree that telling you to just buy a book is NOT cool. My priest, whenever there's even just one inquirer, decides it's time to start a class. And many of the regular parishioners attend, too, because there's such a wealth of wisdom to glean from. We've had church history classes here, Q and A sessions there - whatever is needed, when it is needed. Aren't there other parishes in that area? Might not hurt to check them out. I'd like to think that priest was just having a bad day that day - they can have them too.

Trust me - the Orthodox Church is NOT concerned more with money than with your spiritual needs. That's why it's so poor! Our candles are in the entrance to the church, and so many are lit each time there's a service, the church would go broke if no one helped pay for them. Often, I light them even when I don't have any money on me to throw in the candle basket. No one's going to frown on you for doing likewise. I know many other parishioners throw in a 5, 10, or even 20 for exactly that reason.

I can see you are not letting this stop you (yay!), but you seem disheartened. Don't be. I am extremely sensitive to this issue as well, and it has NEVER seemed to me to be an issue in the Church, and I've been attending Orthodox churches for over 4 years now. I have found nothing but generosity. (My husband and I were homeless for two months last year - we lived with our priest, and he and his wife fed us and sheltered us and encouraged us and never asked for a thing in return. Though his wife did complain about the smell of our cats' litter box... :))

I'd like to loan you some books, if there are others you'd like to read. I enjoy doing that, and you did mention it. We have an enormous library of them, and mailing things book rate is cheap - only a buck or two. PM me with a list of some you'd like to read, if you'd like. Chances are good we've got 'em.

LK

[ufonium2]

The Orthodox Church in Alaska is broke as a joke, and it ain't funny. When we were in Sitka, which is probably 200% better off than Ninilichik, they were running tours of the old cathedral seven days a week, selling books and knick-knacks in a bookstore next door, and still couldn't even keep the building up. Like, they can't ring the bells because the stairs going up to them are rotted.

Quite frankly, the native population of Alaska, which constitutes the majority of the Orthodox presence there, can't do any more financially than they're doing. 98% of the tourists think Orthodoxy is cool and exotic, but have zero interest in converting. But, they will buy stuff. So you're a priest, and you can't pay the bills. You've got tons of folks who want to see your church and buy trinkets, but they're gonna be in town for six hours, and as soon as they leave your church they're gonna be looking for some tourist trap restaurant or another tour. In my view, it's better to give the tourists what the vast majority of them want, which is trinkets, and take a little burden off your congregation.

[ufonium2]

Oh yeah, ditto Anonycat on the books thing. We've got literally shelves of stuff, and I love to give books away.

[e=mv^2]

The Orthodox Church in Alaska is broke as a joke, and it ain't funny.This is very true. I would encourage everyone to consider donating to them.

I'd like to loan you some books, if there are others you'd like to read.
You are sweet. I do appreciate the offer. I think I am being confusing tho.

My concern is not that I can not afford a book. My concern is that the book has to be purchased. Does that make any sense?

Anyhoo...
I have decided what I am going to believe about this.

1 - I am going to accept that the verse from the scene in John 2 is actually about people ripping others off. I am going to base this on the other 3 accounts of the event and I am not going to worry about it anymore.

2 - I am going to give the priest the benefit of the doubt. I am going to believe that he has something beyond this book for me and that the book is only a start.

I do want to make something clear tho. If it were not for the support from you guys here I would have never gone back.

[Orthosdoxa]

We know you can afford books. :) It was both a symbolic and literal gesture. I really do love getting people to read books I've enjoyed. The offer stands if you ever want it. That goes for you, too, Uncle Bud, and other inquirers who may be reading this.

And we are happy to be able to give you support. I am sorry you've had some crummy experiences, but I think the further you delve into the Church, the more wonderful experiences you will have.

LK

[MariaRegina]

This is very true. I would encourage everyone to consider donating to them.


You are sweet. I do appreciate the offer. I think I am being confusing tho.

My concern is not that I can not afford a book. My concern is that the book has to be purchased. Does that make any sense?

Anyhoo...
I have decided what I am going to believe about this.

1 - I am going to accept that the verse from the scene in John 2 is actually about people ripping others off. I am going to base this on the other 3 accounts of the event and I am not going to worry about it anymore.

2 - I am going to give the priest the benefit of the doubt. I am going to believe that he has something beyond this book for me and that the book is only a start.

I do want to make something clear tho. If it were not for the support from you guys here I would have never gone back.


Dear e

I'm glad to hear that you are giving us and the Orthodox Church a second chance.

Definitely try to go to Vespers or to the Divine Liturgy ... there you will experience true worship. It might be that the Priest wanted you to read that book because some people are totally confused when they attend their first Divine Liturgy especially if they come from a church where they have never experienced the Eucharist or a communion service.

If you are used to sermons and songs ... then the Divine Liturgy can be full of surprises. If you have never seen an icon, it can be a shock.

On Sunday, did you hear about the Catholic Church in Decatur, Georgia where some fundamentalists destroyed the altar thinking that Catholcs worshipped statues? It could happen to us too. There is a lot of ignorance out there.

My brother had problems with the icons when he visited an Orthodox Church for the first time ... yet he noticed the differences from Catholicism and was positive and inquisitive about Orthodoxy.

BTW: What was the title of that book?

Welcome back to TAW!

Elizabeth

[Lotar]

I never said I was against donating money to the church. That is a good thing. What is questionable to me is buying your catechism in the form of a book.



I have been severely turned off of things being sold in churches. At one baptist church near me (The one my parents, sister, aunt, cousins go to - heh.. no pressure there) has a preacher that would use the pulpit to sell his books *during the service*.





A few things here:

1.) A catechism is always a book. I understand that you did not grow up in a traditional Christian setting, but any denomination older than the Baptists will require you to obtain a catechism.



2.) If you don't pay for the book, who is going to? It's not like the church is making much money off of you, if any at all. It comes down to, someone has to pay for these things and most Orthodox churches don't have the money to give away free books. A used catechism is a rare thing, because you're supposed to keep it. Plus, is $15 that much to part with? If you truly can't afford it, I'm sure they'd accommodate you. If you some day become Orthodox, then perhaps you can start a program to make these books available for free. :)



3.) We need our bookstores. In case you haven't noticed, it's nearly impossible to find anything more than couple Orthodox books at even Borders and Barnes and Nobles. ;)



4.) Slightly Off Topic: You're going about this whole thing the wrong way. You need to decide on an Orthodox church and start attending (at least) every Sunday. Then, after talking to the priest, begin your catechism. Right now you are an inquirer, later you can be a catechumen, and still later you can be received into the Church.

Heck, I read books for 1.5 years, then attended for over 6 months, and am currently in my 1 year of being a catechumen. This is definitely not something to rush into.





I understand what you are saying re: non essentials but this is a big blow for me. Essentials or not. None should feel like they are supposed to buy something. Noone should have to feel like someone is going to see them bringing in a k-mart candle instead of buying one. Noone should feel pressure to buy anything. I suppose I am living in a dreamworld.





Not to be a jerk or anything, but who here in America can't afford $1 a couple times a year? That won't even buy you a bottle of water in most places.



But, you are right; no one should feel any pressure, so don't. If someone actually turns around, to watch you walk in, looks at the candle you're using, and then judges you for it, then shame on them.




*Disclaimer: This is not meant to come of as a lecture or condemnation.*

[Marjorie]

Also, just so any inquirers reading this know, if you get a wish list on amazon.com and post it here I would be happy to get some Orthodox books for you. Or lend you any of my vast collection. :)

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

There's definitely some communication breakdown between your Orthodox Church and you. Lotar's right. Are you attending regularly? Have you talked with the priest, like, in person?

[e=mv^2]

1.) A catechism is always a book. I understand that you did not grow up in a traditional Christian setting, but any denomination older than the Baptists will require you to obtain a catechism.
If it is a book then it is a book. That is fine. It was not my expectation tho.



2.) If you don't pay for the book, who is going to? It's not like the church is making much money off of you, if any at all. It comes down to, someone has to pay for these things and most Orthodox churches don't have the money to give away free books. A used catechism is a rare thing, because you're supposed to keep it....
Understood. The idea that there is someone out there that can not afford the book that is told that they need to buy it is a bad one. Why should someone have to humiliate themselves before they can even get started?





3.) We need our bookstores. In case you haven't noticed, it's nearly impossible to find anything more than couple Orthodox books at even Borders and Barnes and Nobles. ;)
Yes I have noticed this. There is another way to look at this. If there were no bookstores in the churches then maybe there would be enough demand in the bookstores for them to be carried! Maybe then someone that would have never been exposed might happen to pick one up. I do get your point tho and I do see the need. The truth of the matter is that even Christian book stores do not carry Orthodox material.



4.) Slightly Off Topic: You're going about this whole thing the wrong way.
Oh my friend if only this were the first time....

You need to decide on an Orthodox church and start attending (at least) every Sunday.
A Fundamentalist doesnot just walk into an Orthodox Church. I could not just go to DL. There were several things that I had to come to terms with before I walked into the building.

Then, after talking to the priest, begin your catechism. Right now you are an inquirer, later you can be a catechumen, and still later you can be received into the Church.
allrighty.

Heck, I read books for 1.5 years, then attended for over 6 months, and am currently in my 1 year of being a catechumen. This is definitely not something to rush into.
I have been a believer in God for a long time. Now I am at a point where I am finding out that I am not part of the church. I am outside. I am being told that Salvation begins at baptism and yet I am unbaptized. I am shivering in the cold and see a house with smoke coming from the chimney. I am starving and see food. Thirsty and see drink.
My friend it is something that I must rush towards. I am rushing with all that I have right now and it is still not fast enough. I have no option in the matter but to rush.

[MariaRegina]

What was the name of the book that you bought, e?

And by the way, you are given blessed bread at the Divine Liturgy.

So we do "feed" you. And if you come for Pascha in Spring 2006, you will receive a red-dyed Easter Egg. And we have lots of food in the Parish Hall ... so please don't be shy. The fellowiship there is warm and friendly.

[e=mv^2]

So we do "feed" you. And if you come for Pascha in Spring 2006, you will receive a red-dyed Easter Egg. And we have lots of food in the Parish Hall ... so please don't be shy. The fellowiship there is warm and friendly.
That was a metaphor for being out of communion.

[Orthosdoxa]

Going about it the wrong way? Maybe, but let's cut some slack here, too.
Stepping into an Orthodox Church, changing everything you've ever
known is such a terrifying decision - even when you know it's
the right one. I spent months reading and
asking questions on a board like this one before I was ready to
even THINK about going into the Church. I was a fundy, too, and it was incredibly
painful for me. He's getting his bearings here,
and he will get into the Church soon. He's tried, ya know - I think
he wanted some face time, and that's why he was disappointed about
just getting a book. Every priest I know of would have immediately
invited him to visit the Church, or stop in during office hours. I think the priest
in question must have just been rushed or stressed at that time, because
that's not the kind of reaction I'm used to, either. Priests are not
perfect, but it's not too much to expect some time from them.

As I write this, just read your response, E. Man, you're kinda
eloquent. I'm really sensing how you're feeling - I remember it well.
How I wish you lived near my hubby and I - we would love to take you
to DL with us, help you understand, answer your
questions, introduce you to folks. Tell me
ONE more time your general metro area, pretty please? The Orthodox
world is small. There must be SOMEONE I can hook you up with. It was
my great pleasure to introduce an inquirer (now Orthodox) on this board
to a wonderful Orthodox man I knew from another board, so that he'd
know someone when he went to the parish. They
still go to church together. Maybe we could do something
like that for you, too.

I remember where you're at so well. You're hungry and thirsty, and
the True Food and Drink is yet still out of reach - but take heart.
Do not worry about not being "there" yet - but just that you're on
the road, running home to your Loving Father's arms.

[MariaRegina]

That was a metaphor for being out of communion.

Yeah, I knew. :D

I just didn't want you to feel too deprived.

Remember that if you love the Lord Jesus, and ask Him to come into your heart, He's already there mystically.

But receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ needs preparation and discernment ... something that we Orthodox shouldn't take lightly.

If the Apostle Paul had to chastize the Corinthians ... he would probably chastize us too because sometimes we are also careless and we might receive unworthily.

[Lotar]

If it is a book then it is a book. That is fine. It was not my expectation tho.



Understood. The idea that there is someone out there that can not afford the book that is told that they need to buy it is a bad one. Why should someone have to humiliate themselves before they can even get started?



Hypothetical situation?
If they do as they are supposed to ( ;) ) they will have been attending for a while, and it will already be know that they are short on cash. I, for example, lent 3 of the 5 books we need to read to a couple who I know could use the money elsewhere, and others lent them the other 2. No one had to ask or humiliate themselves.



Yes I have noticed this. There is another way to look at this. If there were no bookstores in the churches then maybe there would be enough demand in the bookstores for them to be carried! Maybe then someone that would have never been exposed might happen to pick one up. I do get your point tho and I do see the need. The truth of the matter is that even Christian book stores do not carry Orthodox material.




Especially christian bookstores. :D

There isn't enough of us to stimulate that kind of demand.




Oh my friend if only this were the first time....

A Fundamentalist doesnot just walk into an Orthodox Church. I could not just go to DL. There were several things that I had to come to terms with before I walked into the building.


That is fine. One step at a time. It took me over a year and a half to take my first step into an Orthodox church.


allrighty.


I have been a believer in God for a long time. Now I am at a point where I am finding out that I am not part of the church. I am outside. I am being told that Salvation begins at baptism and yet I am unbaptized. I am shivering in the cold and see a house with smoke coming from the chimney. I am starving and see food. Thirsty and see drink.
My friend it is something that I must rush towards. I am rushing with all that I have right now and it is still not fast enough. I have no option in the matter but to rush.

Part of becoming Orthodox is to learn not to rely on yourself. None of us are truly baptized until we are baptized and/or chrismated in the Church. Things are this way for a reason. It is better for you to never enter the Church than to be received and then abandon it later. There was a time when the Catechumenate was 7 years.


As Father told me when I spoke with him on this very subject, entering the Church is like a marriage and the Catechumenate is like a betrothal. This is a very serious matter that should not be taken lightly. Right now you are getting to know the Church, deciding whether you like her and whether you want to spend eternity with her. When you take that next step, you must be absolutely sure of what you are doing, turning back is not an option.

Right now, from what I gather, you are afraid for your salvation, which can be a good thing, but also trust in the Lord. Find a spiritual father and trust him, and ask the Mother of God for her prayers, she will help you. God is not spitefull or sadistic; He is not leading you this way to send you to Hell before you reach your destination.

Remember, something easily attained is easily given up.

[Orthosdoxa]

Lothar, that was beautiful.

Yeah, E, what Lothar said.

[Lotar]

Going about it the wrong way? Maybe, but let's cut some slack here, too.


I don't want to come across harsh, but one cannot expect to jump straight from reading a message board, and maybe a book or two, straight into the Catechumenate.

I know what he is feeling, I felt (and many times still feel) the same way. I litterally cried (which is not something normal for uber-manly Lotar ;) ) when I finally admitted to myself what I had to do. I was also disappointed when I found out how long I was going to have to wait.

So, I'm not trying to discourage him, or grinde him down. I'm just trying to give some advise from someone was was in his situation 1 year and a month and a half ago.

[e=mv^2]

Tell me
ONE more time your general metro area, pretty please?
If I told you this now you would be able to tell who it is that sold me the book. Forget for a while and ask me again under other circumstances.

There was a time when the Catechumenate was 7 years.
There was also a time when one said "here there is water" and was baptized.

Right now, from what I gather, you are afraid for your salvation, which can be a good thing, but also trust in the Lord.
I trust in God but I read that without baptism there is no forgiveness of sins. This is said in no uncertain terms. To accept this catechism is to accept that I have no salvation as of now.

I don't want to come across harsh, but one cannot expect to jump straight from reading a message board, and maybe a book or two, straight into the Catechumenate.
Why?
(Luk 18:16) But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

(Luk 18:17) Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

What is it that the child must comprehend? What theories and complexities must one grasp on order to have the faith of a child?

[Dust and Ashes]

I trust in God but I read that without baptism there is no forgiveness of sins. This is said in no uncertain terms. To accept this catechism is to accept that I have no salvation as of now.


Why?

What is it that the child must comprehend? What theories and complexities must one grasp on order to have the faith of a child?

Your western thinking is clouding the issue with juridicial concepts. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Being baptized isn't signing a contract whereby God is obligated to save you any more than not being baptized is going to result in auto-damnation. God is sovereign. If you are moving towards Him, you are doing the right thing. To paraphrase Fr. Maximos from The Mountain of Silence, "Don't worry where you are on the path to God, only that you are on the path."

[Lotar]

There was also a time when one said "here there is water" and was baptized.


I trust in God but I read that without baptism there is no forgiveness of sins. This is said in no uncertain terms. To accept this catechism is to accept that I have no salvation as of now.


Why?

What is it that the child must comprehend? What theories and complexities must one grasp on order to have the faith of a child?

E, the simplest answer is that you have a Fundamentalist faith and mindset. Individualism, self-realized authority, etc. must at least begin to be remedied. Part of this is accepting that this process will take time, and that your entry into the Church isn't solely going to be your decision. Your priest will discern whether or not you are ready, that is his responsibility.

You're not required to become a theologian or a Church historian. A large part of it isn't what you have to learn, but what you have to unlearn. You will learn, as I have, that you know nothing. Have the faith of a child and obey because you are told to, accept that the Church knows what she is doing and that you are only an infant.

Again, I'm not trying to be harsh, this is just something that is like a 2x4 between the eyes for those of us leaving Protestantism.

[MariaRegina]

When I was dying to be Chrismated, the priest told me that he had chrismated people in a very short while only to have them leave the Orthodox Church because after their Chrismation they stopped going to Bible Studies (held for the purpose of instructing the newcomers and all who really wanted to get deeper in the walk).

The priest felt that he had failed those souls and cried because they may lose their salvation.

He talked with the Bishop who makes the rulings now. So, it is now out of the hands of the priest who presents all the catechumens to the Bishop.

[Orthosdoxa]

You have a good point, E. If only most of us could have the faith of a child. There is a dear lady at my parish whose chronological age is about 65, but whose mental age is about 6. She is so dear! Her caretaker is Orthodox and through his influence she joined the Church a few years ago. She just loves everyone, and has a heart of gold. She will never understand concepts like theosis or juridical vs therapeutic - or even heaven and hell, truly - but I mean it sincerely when I say she is probably a much better Christian than I am.

The illiterate shepherd on the hillside in Greece who attends DL faithfully and loves his God and his neighbor is also probably in better shape than I, even though I've read most theological books I could get my hands on and consider myself well-educated. Education and knowledge mean little. Faith, hope and love mean much.

For me, though, these things broke down because of my baggage. I simply had too much to unlearn. I could not have the faith of a child until I was able to release myself from the bonds of the awful fundy doctrine I'd been indoctrinated with. That took time, and work, and understanding. I think these things are being said to you with the idea that you are in a similar situation. However, if not - if you are ready to embrace the Church, have no doubts or questions at all already, then bravo. Most of us from heretical backgrounds, though, have some work to do before we can have that simplistic faith. But well, maybe not all.

[Dust and Ashes]

You're not required to become a theologian or a Church historian. A large part of it isn't what you have to learn, but what you have to unlearn. You will learn, as I have, that you know nothing. Have the faith of a child and obey because you are told to, accept that the Church knows what she is doing and that you are only an infant.

Again, I'm not trying to be harsh, this is just something that is like a 2x4 between the eyes for those of us leaving Protestantism.

:amen:

That is amazingly hard to do but it's absolutely necessary. Thanks for articulating that, Lotar.

[Orthosdoxa]

A large part of it isn't what you have to learn, but what you have to unlearn. You will learn, as I have, that you know nothing.

I will never forget when I first realized this. I was the go-to girl in college for people to ask questions about the Bible and Christianity and stuff. "Oh, go ask her. She knows." (which was a huge source of pride for me, which is dreadful)

...when I began to embrace Orthodoxy, I began to realize that all I knew was shifting sands. The idol I'd made of myself and my doctrinal opinions melted away and I began to realize that my soul was empty. And I knew NOTHING....

...and what a painful, yet absolutely glorious realization that was.

[e=mv^2]

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.
And he has described those whom he will have mercy on.

(Joh 3:5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(Joh 3:6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(Joh 3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.



Would Christ say something that is not true? Would he say that and then change his mind?

The catechism appears to disagree with you. Quoting: "...define Baptism as follows: It is God laying claim to you." and "Through baptism you become His child. And when God adopts you as His child, he does so for a purpose. He has a plan for you. You're saved from sin. You're saved for service, for love, for good works, for enlarging the kingdom."
More...
"After baptism man is a living member in the body of Christ. ... newly begotten..."
and...
"Baptism in the Orthodox Church is far more than for the remission of sins...."

There is a constant theme of "Be glad you were baptized because if you weren't .... whew boy!"
Well... I wasn't. Thanks Mom and Dad. 'preciate it.
Remember, something easily attained is easily given up.

It took me 30 years just to find it. None of this is easy.
To paraphrase Fr. Maximos from The Mountain of Silence, "Don't worry where you are on the path to God, only that you are on the path."
Ever been in the line at an amusement park? The path is the roller coaster with all its ups and downs. The sign I am reading seems to say that I have to be 2 inches taller to get on.

[MariaRegina]

There was once an Orthodox catechumen who just couldn't quite give up the idea of the rapture and neither could she really come to grips with the fact that she should not visit her old Baptist church because that could be a danger to her.

Anyway, she kept pressuring the Priest to give her Holy Chrismation so that she could receive her First Holy Communion, by saying,

"I'm coming to the Banquet, but you are refusing me the real food ... the Body and Blood of Christ."

So the priest caved in and Chrismated her.

Within several months, her friends invited her back to the Baptist Church for a special event and she went without the blessing of her Priest.

Her friends convinced her that if she didn't join them, that she wouldn't be raptured with them. So she left Orthodoxy.

Then about 4 years later she came back to Orthodoxy (when the Rapture didn't happen) and started attending another Orthodox Church for one year but then quickly left again when her friends invited her back to their Baptist Church.

Like a leaf blowing in the wind.

[Orthosdoxa]

Someone who dies while a catechumen is still given an Orthodox funeral. It would not be so if it were, oh, whelpers, sorry Charlie, one free ticket to hell for you b/c you hadn't been baptized yet. It suggests to me that God cares where your heart is at that point, that you are on the road there. If you scorned baptism and spit on the idea... uh, yeah. You might be in trouble. But you earnestly seek it... we call all see that. It's not so cut and dried as you think. Many things in Orthodoxy are like that. Heck, EVERYTHING in Orthodoxy is like that. And it's hard to get used to, when we're used to black and white in Protestantism. But continue on the road.

Aren't you near Atlanta? (I know you didn't want to tell me at this point, but I thought I remembered. :P) We have members who are near enough to you to make a trip to go to a parish with you at some point. I bet someone would do it, even if it meant a special trip. I would, but I'm trapped up here on the Left Coast. :doh:

As hard as it is, PLEASE take the plunge of attending DL very, very soon. You will not regret it.

[gzt]

Oh good grief, we all think we're too short for this ride, but Christ came for all of us. Someday soon enough you'll be baptized into the Orthodox Church, glory to God. Don't worry about it.

[Monica, child of God]

It's not so cut and dried as you think. Many things in Orthodoxy are like that. Heck, EVERYTHING in Orthodoxy is like that. And it's hard to get used to, when we're used to black and white in Protestantism.

So true. Orthodoxy does not take a cookie cutter approach.

M.

[e=mv^2]

As hard as it is, PLEASE take the plunge of attending DL very, very soon. You will not regret it.
I am planning on going this weekend. My wife has actually agreed to go with me. I just have to get some pants to wear... I have been wearing hawaiian shirts, shorts and flip flops all summer and do not think I even have a pair of long pants at this point... kinda funny...

[Orthosdoxa]

Glory to God!!!!

[gzt]

And, um, don't have grand expectations.

[Xpycoctomos]

Okay... "Catechism" is a class. "A or THE Catechism" is a book, usually. my misunderstanding. my bad. (everyone else seemed to understand what you meant :))

[HandmaidenOfGod]

I am planning on going this weekend. My wife has actually agreed to go with me. I just have to get some pants to wear... I have been wearing hawaiian shirts, shorts and flip flops all summer and do not think I even have a pair of long pants at this point... kinda funny...

Will someone give the man a pair of pants?! THIS is why he didn't want to buy the catechism, because he couldn't afford pants! ^_^ j/k

God bless you e, I will remember you in my prayers this Sunday! :)

In XC,

Maureen

[e=mv^2]

Will someone give the man a pair of pants?! THIS is why he didn't want to buy the catechism, because he couldn't afford pants!
You get to be the next .sig. Too funny.

ps.. don't forget socks.. I only wear socks twice a week. And that is to soccer practice!

[Xpycoctomos]

I have the resources. I do know that there are others that do not. That is one reason that this concerns me. What I am really afraid of is that this is a symptom of a priest being more concerned with the mortgage payment than he is with the spiritual needs of some jerk that walked in off the street.

Was this priest really that horrible? He may have been. I'm just astounded because I have never met one so cold (although I am sure they exist).

Now, I know you have the resources (meaning money where you don't have to worry if you are going to get the heat shut off next week... and that this does not only affect you.. but an entire parish of poor people)a nd so do I (and Ilive paycheck to paycheck) but that is my point. We have the resources, and while a priest that is concerned with how he will pay the mortgage so the tiny Church does not get taken away to such an extent that he seems to only invite visitors in so he can pawn of postcards and beads is less than inspiring... I am not so confident that I would be anymore inspiring in his place. Perhaps you would. And that is fantastic. But my point is simply that I don't see this as a big deal. I WOULD see it as a big deal if the priest were trying to sell salvation (if you buy these candles your prayers will be worth more to God) and surely there are those who preach and believe that. THAT is something to be concerned about IMO. I priest worried about making the mortgage isn't really.

I will say though that it does concern me that a priest would just have an inquirer read a book and leave it at that. Not good. Now, at my Church, which is very small, we have inquirer classes once a year simply because we don't get that many people (we are a small parish in a city of three Churches that already doens't have many Orthodox). So the priest there may say "here, read this book if you are interested in Orthodoxy and come to Liturgy when you can. In January we are starting our inquirers class and if at that point you are still interested in becoming Orthodox then make sure to come and we will talk about the next steps." I think that can makes sense, even if it isn't ideal.

Just some thoughts.

John

[e=mv^2]

Was this priest really that horrible?
No. He was a good fellow and very easy to talk to. I have become overly critical of a specific concept and have forgotten that I am the more broken of the two people in the relationship. It was not the priest - it was the idea that someone might call him and be told that they needed money in order to progress. It was most certainly not the priest.

We have the resources, and while a priest that is concerned with how he will pay the mortgage so the tiny Church does not get taken away to such an extent that he seems to only invite visitors in so he can pawn of postcards and beads is less than inspiring.
Remember we are talking about 2 different priests here. One in Alaska and one elsewhere. Both are perfectly good fellows. Kind, gentle and broken - just like me. I managed to focus on the broken-ness instead of the good.
I am not so confident that I would be anymore inspiring in his place.
I assure you that I would not hold up to my own scrutiny. I have ideals. When those ideals are not met it hurts.
But my point is simply that I don't see this as a big deal.
Good to have a more grounded perspective.
I WOULD see it as a big deal if the priest were trying to sell salvation (if you buy these candles your prayers will be worth more to God) and surely there are those who preach and believe that. THAT is something to be concerned about IMO. I priest worried about making the mortgage isn't really.
The problem is that I can see holes in things from far far away. I have trained myself to see them as to be able to identify a false teaching to protect myself. Remember that I was in the process of sifting through over 2600 protestant denominations. I am exceptionally good at finding theological/doctrinal/moral holes.
A little too good for my own good.
With a denomination / doctrinal statement you can be ultra critical. They publish doctrine and they stick with it. It is a standard upon which the whole of the group looks toward. It is easy to pick out the bad ones and move on.
I have been the exact same way with Orthodoxy. I am ULTRA critical on doctrine. Remeber my early threads here?
The problem is with people. You can not be ultra critical of people. They are all broken. So I have to remind myself that noone is mroe broken than me and to look to the higher standard.

while a priest that is concerned with how he will pay the mortgage so the tiny Church does not get taken away to such an extent that he seems to only invite visitors in so he can pawn of postcards and beads is less than inspiring.
The little church in Ninilchik Alaska is 100 years old. God has provided for them and will continue to provide for them.


I will say though that it does concern me that a priest would just have an inquirer read a book and leave it at that.
I no longer beleive that he is doing that. I believe that he knows what he is doing and will take care of me.
Now, at my Church, which is very small, we have inquirer classes once a year simply because we don't get that many people (we are a small parish in a city of three Churches that already doens't have many Orthodox).
Treat every single inquirer as if they were your amnesiatic brother that does not remember you - long lost and found but does not know it yet. Assume you only get one chance with this brother.
I think that can makes sense, even if it isn't ideal.
Agreed. In my case it probably was ideal. I needed something to get me to the Liturgy. The priest may have worried that being aggressive might have turned me away. I don't know.
I have spent so long picking out the nasties and dissecting doctrine that flaws literally scream at me. I just have to let that go now.

Thanks again to all of you for sticking with me. Others would not have done so.

[Khaleas]

Great post # 36...

Unfortunately the RepBolshevik's still haven't gotten enough vodka so they won't let me rep you... :sigh:

[e=mv^2]

Oh! I almost forgot!
Where is the COWBELL?

[gzt]

Wherever it is, we need more of it.

[Khaleas]

I assure you that I would not hold up to my own scrutiny. I have ideals. When those ideals are not met it hurts.


Agreed. In my case it probably was ideal. I needed something to get me to the Liturgy. The priest may have worried that being aggressive might have turned me away. I don't know.
I have spent so long picking out the nasties and dissecting doctrine that flaws literally scream at me. I just have to let that go now.

Thanks again to all of you for sticking with me. Others would not have done so.

A lot of Orthodoxy I think is letting go of what YOU believe is right and instead accept and take up what Orthodoxy believes is right. Holding on to things you believe is right easily leads to pride and the same goes for disecting to the nitty gritty because it easily leads to your own opinion and a prideful need to hold on to that opinion because you came up with that conclusion.
You're probably never going to find something that you agree with 100% and you can live with 100%, but you can get darn close and learn to live with the % you don't agree with.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Time and time again when I have struggled with issues in Orthodoxy I have realized that this is God's way of bringing up that hard learned lesson of "how to die to self."

Letting go of our ideals, our wants, our needs, our desires, and just letting God take over is the hardest thing to do, but gosh is it rewarding in the end. :thumbsup:

Hang in there my friend, and may God be with you!

In XC,

Maureen