1 Cor. 11:3-16 Whatcha think?

[Lindalou40]

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
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Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head.
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And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved.
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If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
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A man ought not to cover his head,[2] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
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For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;
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neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
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For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
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In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.
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For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.
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Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?
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Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him,
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but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.
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If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.

Ok, I will probably get blasted, so please be gentle :) . About six months ago, I reread this portion of scripture. I should add that I had just cut my hair very short, since I was a waitress at the time and I would get so sweaty...;) .

I read it and read it and read it again. I couldn't see the "cultural" argument, because the context of God, Christ, man, woman was mentioned. I see it as no more "obscure" than the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and besides all of the Bible is infallible, isn't it? ;)

Just thought I would see what y'all thought.

[savinggrc]

Well, if you read all of it, you'll notice the verse that says "if any man seem contentious, then we have no such custom." :) I currently have my hair long, but I don't always wear it long and I certainly don't wear it long for any legal reasons or because it makes me closer to God. :lol: I also don't wear a head-covering. My hair is my covering, but it doesn't have to be long to be a covering on my head. The Bible also says that my husband is my head and if his head is covered, then it's a shame! :lol: You can make a point for confusion, at the least, by yanking verses from here and there..:cool: Don't worry about your hair. We have no such custom.


Karen

[Josephus]

Also notice this is a personal opinion of Paul, and that he lists no direct command of God. This is true in other letters where he gives explicit instruction, but it seems people always take them as verbatim God's command to them today when in fact the very first verse determines who is being addressed.

"Now I want you to realize..."

[Lindalou40]

Thank you both for your response. But isn't the following true: 2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

Or is that true only if we like and agree with the writer of the particular scripture? How can scripture be infallible if it is only a man's opinion?

These are some of the questions I ask myself and now y'all. ;)

[zamar]

So what are you learning from the verse Linda?
Yes all scripture is God breathed but Paul notes that it is basically his opinion here concerning women.

Because of Christ, you are free to wear your hair however you like (as long as it isn't a point of contention between you and your husband).

*don't place yourself under any bondage when Jesus has made you free*

Z

[Lindalou40]

Karen, in regards to this: You can make a point for confusion, at the least, by yanking verses from here and there. I am quite sure that I am not yanking verses from here and there. I posted the passage in its entirety.

Zamar, Because of Christ, you are free to wear your hair however you like (as long as it isn't a point of contention between you and your husband).

*don't place yourself under any bondage when Jesus has made you free*

Do you think you could please show me where these verses are?

Also, fwiw, I thought we were set free from sin and guilt and given freedom to obey and do the right thing.

My friends, first of all, I do consider ya'll my friends, its only been the last month since I started wearing a headcovering full time. I had not yet gotten my skirts make for working at Cracker Barrel! Now I don't have to worry about that and it just didn't seem quite right to wear a headcovering and pants. :lol:

I posted this a) because I am wondering if anyone else has ever been bothered by these scriptures.

I am not trying to be contentious, nor will I continue this thread unless y'all want to.

Again, my problem when I first reread this passage was that none of the "traditions" that I've been taught held any water.

Be blessed.

[zamar]

LindaLou,
If someone wants you to cover your head because of some "Holiness" thing , please consider the following scripture.

1 Peter 3 1-4

Likewise wives be in subjection to your own husband (not the Church "my opinion") that if any obey not the word they also may without the word be won by the conversation (lifestyle) of their wife.

VERSE 3... Whose adorning let it not be the outward of plating the hair, and the wearing gold or the putting on of apparel. VERSE 4... but let it be the hidden man of the heart in the which is not corruptible, of a meek and quiet spirit which is in the sight of God of great price.

IF you are being made to cover your head and wear long skirts because of a holiness thing.... According to verse 3 of 1 Peter 3, you are not to wear clothes at all. He stated the wearing of apparel.....

True holiness is a state of the heart, not the clothes.

(If your husband wants you to dress this way because of a Church law then if you agree, do it) But God doesn't require it of you.

Z

[Josephus]

Let me ask you this question:

What is scripture? What is the word of God? Is the word of God something like "and he killed a thousand phillistines that day?" on the same par as scripture as "For God so loved the world..."?

What is scripture, and which of that scripture is actually God's written word?

People are obviously inspired when they write what God is speaking, but are people just as inspired when they just write their own opinion in a letter later taken as authoritative because the author was an apostle?

We have to learn to weigh scripture for what it is. If Paul says it's a command of God, then that scripture too is backed up with other scripture, but if it is an opinion, then we note that Paul does not say it is a God-command, but rather it is Paul giving a Paul-command to his own churches. Reread the context of the letter and look for key phrases that indicate how and why Paul is writing a particular paragraph - and try your best to ignore the chapter divisions as originally the text was all one giant letter. When you do that, you get a better understanding of what the 'scripture' is saying, and an idea of how or if it applies to us what is being written. This is called proper hermanuetics.

[savinggrc]

Hi Linda,

I think you've misunderstood. I meant that in legalistic circles they will yank that verse and one from somewhere else to make sure that women have to live like they say in order to be saved...that's what I was pointing out. :)

Sorry for the confusion.

Karen

[zamar]

Jospehus is correct. If we were to apply all of Paul's opinions as if they were a direct command from the Lord, none of us would have ever married. Paul preferred to stay single and told the church to remain that way if possible.

Holiness is an internal character, not an outward covering.

Z

[savinggrc]

Hey Z,

Re: "Holiness is an internal character, not an outward covering."

It is internal but it manifests externally in the way we speak, dress and act. :)

Hey Linda,

Look here:

1 Corinthians 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Paul says her hair is her covering, not a piece of cloth. :)

Love to you!!!
Karen

[Lindalou40]

Karen, thank you for clearing up the misunderstanding. I truly didn't thiink you would accuse me of pulling scripture out of context when it was obvious I didn't, so again, thank you. :) Also regarding internal holiness expressing itself outwardly, I agree with you 100%!

In regards to v. 15, I also noticed that when I first looked at this whole issue, but then I kept seeing: 6
If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

The second half of vs. 6 would be totally nonsensical if the "covering" didn't refer to a piece of cloth.

Josephus, thank you :) for your input as well. However, in regards to the following: Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Unlike other a couple of other letters where he definitely says something is an opinion of his (btw, I personally would not want to tell the writer of 1/3 of the NT that I didn't "agree" with his "opinion" ;) ), that doesn't seem to be the case here. Unless we are to just consider all of his writings "opinion", unless he specifically indicates an opinion, it seems to me that I will consider his writings "God inspired" ;) (Did that come out clear as mud? :lol: )

Z, you are a true brother in Christ and I absolutely cannot wait to me you on the other side of eternity! I think it is awesome that your biggest concern seems to be the issue of someone falsely manipulating me into some sense of what I will call "false holiness". Please tell your wife that a sister in Christ said to hug for her! :) If only more men were as protective of their sisters in Christ. To answer your concern, no, noone is pressuring or manipulating me. When I first saw this issue come up on another bb, I didn't know what to think. On the night I got my hair cur really short, I even lightly asked my dh what he thought. His reply "only if I walked 5 steps behind him! We both laughed! :lol: .

Also, when I belong to the Baptist persuasion, I kept seeing verses that I felt were ignored regarding the Holy Spirit and giftings, etc. Then as a charismatic, I saw other verses ignored and (imho) "explained away" in regards to what I consider women's issues. Specifically, women as pastors, co-pastor's, etc and the books addressed to Timothy also seem to be ignored quite a bit.

What has continued to bother me is when Jesus says "If you love me, you'll obey me!" Well, if He is the Word, and I ignore his Word, how can I say, I love you?

Again, thank you for y'alls input.

[zamar]

LindaLou,
Thank you for the kind words. You are a precious sister and I appreciate your contributions both here and at the CCC. (Nice to see that you have it together!)

Blessings
Z

[Lindalou40]

(Nice to see that you have it together!)

:lol: No, far from it.

[zamar]

Watch your words, You are alot closer than you think (or have been led to believe). Your hunger for the word of God and His presence is proof enough for me.

Z

[Thunderchild]

There are passages in the Bible which irrefutably show that the author goofed. So, to the question Between the **s

I read it and read it and read it again. I couldn't see the "cultural" argument, because the context of God, Christ, man, woman was mentioned. I see it as no more "obscure" than the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and **besides all of the Bible is infallible, isn't it? **

The answer is no.

[WWJD777]

I think that you can cut your hair, but most cover it at any time when you are praying, praising, ect, to God.

[Thunderchild]

Paul indeed was careful to point out that things were only his own opinion when he KNEW that to be the case...but what can we say of 1 Cor 11:3-16. Was it inspired directive, or was it Paul's opinion expressed on a touchy subject among the congregation to which it was addressed?

Is there any internal evidence in the passage which can indicate a decision?

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Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?
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Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him

Does the lioness have a mane? Do what Paul suggests, and judge for yourselves.