POLL: Which end-times doctrine do you believe?

[THINK XP]

I know these beliefs are much more technical than offered here--especially with respect to the millennium. But humor me. Generally, which one do you tend to believe?

[ShlindreaQ]

I'm Pre-Wrath.;)

[Lil Trib]

I am hoping for pre-trib so that my children will not be there for the tribulation. But I believe it will happen when God sees fit and I will go through which ever way He choses and lean on Him and trust Him. Hope that makes sense. <D

LOVE IN CHRIST!!!!!!!!

[seguicamma di Christ]

I'm pan-trib myself. No one interpretation has convinced. God will win in His time, not mine. Maybe there is a rapture maybe there isn't. In the end things will work out.


in CHrst

[Josephus]

I'm pre-wrath. There is too much evidence in the bible to believe in a pre-trib rapture. Better yet, more things make sense if you believe in a post-trib, pre-wrath resurrection, rapture, and transfiguration of the saints.

[YouThenMe]

At this point, I'm pan-trib myself :D

[Solomon Spade]

I happen to think we miss out on some minor things, like the Wrath of the Lamb, WWIII, after the war inflation, and the bitterness of one-third of thw water.

[ZippytheWonderSlug]

Hmmm, I didn't get the poll page, just the results page, so here's my vote:

I am pre-trib, but unfortunately I haven't made such an in-depth study of it to be convinced either way!!

I guess this is just wishful thinking, I don't want to be around when all Hell comes loose...and Jesus did say that we will not know the times or the epochs. There will be signs, yes, and I believe we will know that the time is nearer, but I do NOT believe that we will be able to count on the calendar "250 days and counting, 249 days, 248 days . . ." because "no man knows . . . not even the Son, but only the Father knows."

Jes' my opinion...

[mikitta]

Yep, pan trib! Best way to expect God. He'll make it pan out just the way He wants it! :rollin:

God Bless,
mik

[Buckeroo]

I'm a Pre-Tribber myself. A pretribulation Rapture is essential for a number of reasons: first of all, to remove true Christians from earth. If they were present when Antichrist was revealed, they would oppose and expose him. This opposition must be removed in order to give Satan and man, under Antichrist's leadership, full freedom to prove that this earth can be turned back into a garden paradise without God. The Holy Spirit, who is present everywhere, will still convict and draw many to Christ during the Great Tribulation. The restraining influence, however, which He has wielded in this world through the millions of true Christians, will have suddenly been removed, leaving a moral and spiritual vacuum in homes, neighborhoods, businesses, and schools such as we cannot even imagine.

A pretrib Rapture is also necessary because the Antichrist will be given authority by God "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (Rev. 13:7). Such a fate could not befall the church, for Christ said that the "gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (The Church) (Matt. 16:1:cool: . Moreover, true Christians have authority and power to "resist the devel" and "he will flee" (James 4:7), for "greater is he that is in you (us), than he that is in the world" (1 John 4:4). So the fact that Antichrist is given power by God "to make war with the saints and to overcome (i.e., kill) them" is proof that the true church is no longer present. The "saints" mentioned are those who have not heard and rejected the gospel prior to the Rapture and who believe in Christ during the Great Tribulation. They will pay for their faith with their lives. Those who take the mark of the best suffer the wrath of the Lamb, while those who don't are slain by Antichrist. Thus a post-trib rapture would be a classic nonevent, for there would be very few if any surviving believers to be raptured at that time. And surely those Christians who were left alive, seeing the judgment of God poured out upon mankind and earth's armies gathered for the battle of Armageddon in an attempt to destroy Israel, would know beyond the sahdow of a doubt that the Second Coming was about to occur--and would be watching for their Lord to appear. Yet Christ declared that He would return at a time of such ease that even the "five wise virgins" would "slumber and sleep." He warned, "for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matt 24:44). Hardly likely in the midst of the greatest tribulation and destruction the world has ever seen or ever will see!!

Buck

[momule]

been pre-wrath for 40 years, before it became really discussed......
and not because I read some book other than scripture and
many different translations..:)

wish I had another view(pre-trib) it is not so dangerous, but I 'm al-
ways looking for more answers...:) janet k.

[Thummin]

I can only go by my personal experience since I already went through the tribulation 8 years ago. The world is completely deceived about the Tribulation, which is in every single chapter of the BIBLE and is told us over and over and over. Here is the order of the Tribulation

1.First there is destruction of the CARNAL MAN or man of lawlessness, which brings the fullness of the spirit of CHRIST who destroys him with the BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING AND THE TRUTH OF HIS APPEARING. The carnal man turns out to be the EGO and through overcoming him IN CHRIST, your soul and spirit are CUT IN TWO, ie the MIDST of the man, like Abrahams covenant showed with the animals cut in two and the LIGHT OF CHRIST PASSES BETWEEN THE PIECES first of the CARNAL MAN, ie ego, ie man of lawlessness and CHRIST.

2. Just as they are saying PEACE PEACE, which comes from first seeing the LIGHT, and overcoming the carnal division between the CHRIST and the EGO, now, you have to be CUT AGAIN in two, ie SOUL AND SPIRIT, or as Paul says the word of God is sharper than any double edged sword cutting apart soul and spirit as bone/joint and marrow; Ie the marrow is the spirit, or life giving source of the BONE-soul. In Hebrew the word for bone-etsem is the same as SUBSTANCE which is our substance spiritually. EZEKIEL asks, will these bones-souls-live?? Yes they will when they get the RENEWED SPIRIT which is Gods house and is presently POLUTED as our SIN NATURE at the very core of our existence with Satan having a hold on it. THE EXPERIENCE is the ACTUAL RAPTURE or FALLING INTO THE ABYSS, which is falling to the ROOT or the spirit of the tree. Genesis 49, DAN-TRIBE OF JACOB-ISRAEL, meaning JUDGE, is the serpent in the WAY, he bites the riders heels and he falls backward. Paul fell backward and this falling is into the ROOT which is REALLY UP or RAPTURED UP TO THE TOP where God is at the root since the bottom to GOD, the earth, is his footstool, bottom and the bottom to us, the abyss is the TOP or root-CROWN to GOD. His life flows to us through the root of the tree. THE BAD TREE NOW GETS PLUCKED UP BY MESSIAH and the TREE OF LIFE COMES OUT OF THE ROOT OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE; this is experienced as the tribulation like none other ever. ITS INSIDE AND THERE IS NO WAY TO ESCAPE. THE WRATH IS GODS WAR AGAINST EVIL...which is OUR ENEMY, and not man against man again. Isaiah 14...out of the root of the ADDER comes forth the fiery flying serpent (IF I BE LIFTED UP-raptured, ie crucified, I will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME-they too will be crucified; after TWO DAYS I WILL LIFT THEM UP-raptured and the THIRD DAY THEY WILL STAND IN MY SIGHT). ENOUGH FOR NOW. Just here to tell you that you will come out of the TRIBULATION according to the BOOK of revelation with WHITE ROBES and with Palm branches; represent crowns and straight errect righteousness; also kaph means hollow of the hand and KAPH is Hebrew for CHEIR in GREEK which is the HOLLOW OF THE HAND and represents the SOUL, which is in the CHASMA, CHEIR, CHORA, Impassable interval. YOU WILL SURVIVE; GOD IS WITH YOU EVEN THOUGH WE MADE OUR BED IN HELL. He has the KEY TO LET US OUT:)

[THINK XP]

The Triblation is in every chapter of the Bible? *scratching head*

Hmm...how about Genesis chapter 5?

[vastrightwingconspiracy]

Just kidding.

I'm amillennial in my eschatology, so that means I believe the rapture takes place at the time of Christ's second coming. The apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians says that the rapture of the saints will happen at the same time the wicked experience God's wrath. See for yourself...

"For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief (***RAPTURE***) to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution (***WRATH***) to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power..."

(2 Thess. 1:6-9 NASB)

Or if you prefer it in Spanish...

"Porque después de todo, es justo delante de Dios retribuir con aflicción a los que os afligen,
y daros alivio a vosotros que sois afligidos, y también a nosotros, cuando el Señor Jesús sea revelado desde el cielo con sus poderosos ángeles en llama de fuego, dando retribución a los que no conocen a Dios, y a los que no obedecen al evangelio de nuestro Señor Jesús. Estos sufrirán el castigo de eterna destrucción, excluidos de la presencia del Señor y de la gloria de su poder..."

vrwc

[Buckeroo]

What's wrong with the print for this thread????

Buck

[Thummin]

and every other chapter too. It is the message of the Bible on a mystery level, and it is the reality God will perform the next 1000 years, ie judgment day or "THE DAY OF THE LORD" wherein every eye will see him and God will TRANSFORM THE HEART by the circumcision in the "TWINKLING of an eye", just as a good Rabbi circumcises quickly to cause a minimum amount of pain. There is hardly any way to avoid the terror and anxiety of entering the root of the tree so you can ARISE ie be LIFTED UP (as ENOCH-name means "INITIATED") was in Gen 5. Its there everywhere if you understand the experience. Soon more and more people will. It is the ONLY HOPE for mankind. To be re-BOOTED, in the twinkling of an eye, like a computer. God will REPROGRAM US as his SONS the second time around.

[kesolutions]

I'm Pre-Wrath....but I'm open to a convincing discussion.

[ChosenbyHim]

G-d has appointment dates set with His people. As noted in the thread regarding Jewish Feasts and end-times, the progression of the feasts and what they represent swayed me to be a pre-tribber!

Blessings,
Lory

[NurseAngel1]

I guess that I am the wait and see type. None of the titles seem to fit me. I guess I am a when ever God feels like it believer. I just try to live each day as if it were to be the last and pray I am doing what God wants me to do.

Peace,

NurseAngel

[LilyLamb]

The one that says we win in the end! :D

[Bro Shayne Froelich]

I am pre-wrath/post-trib. I believe that both can be reconciled together as one and the same event during Daniel's last 30 - 75 days.

[Kye0929]

Well...I don't really know for sure, but I have a lot of dreams that tell me the Rapture is pre-trib. Soo....I'm goin' with that...

[Reborn2000]

Pre-trib here!

[Buck1]

I am partial preterist and amillenial in the sense that I believe that 1,000 years is not a literal 1,000 years. I appear to be in the minority :D

[Jason Happy]

I believe in the pre tribulation rapture.

20 pages of scriptures why, if you print them out:
www.geocities.com/biblepr...apture.htm (http://www.geocities.com/bibleprophesy/rapture.htm)

Additionally, the wedding of the messiah supports pre tribulation rapture:
www.geocities.com/biblepr...gstudy.htm (http://www.geocities.com/bibleprophesy/weddingstudy.htm)

Finally, the Feast of Trumpets, also known as the "Wedding of the Messiah" supports pre-trib:
www.geocities.com/biblepr...umpets.htm (http://www.geocities.com/bibleprophesy/feastoftrumpets.htm)

Today is the Feast of Trumpets, or Rosh Hashanna. Maybe today will be the day.

[Jesusong]

I am Pre-Trib.

[JLM223]

I'm a post-trib premillenialist. I also just migrated from the Left Behind MB because of all the technical problems they're having!

[kittyo]

I am pre-wrath all the way. I wonder why this rapture theory was not an option in the voting question. Most people who do not understand the pre-wrath theory think that the mid-trib rapture theory covers pre-wrath, but this thinking is totally incorrect.

[keylan]

Im pre wrath, but I could be wrong! Its happened once or twice before

[Pastor Carl]

I am definately pre-trib. However I do respect other peoples right to be wrong who believe differently. Hee!!! Hee!!!

Josephus!!! Larry-Boy is pre-trib.

[jeeze]

What do you make of this:
CSETI Visits the Vatican
October 4, 2000 08:16 CDT

The director of the Center
for the Study of
Extraterrestrial Intelligence
has returned from a trip to
Rome, reporting that one of
the Vatican's upper-level
officials has agreed that
governments should
disclose the presence of
intelligent ET beings.

CSETI director Dr. Steven Greer said he met with Msr. Padre Corrado
Balducci in his home outside of Rome Sept. 23, "for what I consider a
rather historic event," said Paola Harris, a journalist who accompanied
Greer and cameraman Peter Sorenson to the meeting.

"Padre Balducci agreed to be interviewed and filmed as part of a major
Greer's worldwide disclosure project. This project included the filming
of military witnesses, commercial pilots and scientists and other
involved parties in Italy who were directly involved with the UFO
phenomenon," writes Harris of the meeting.

"Of course there must be something between us and the angels" Padre
Balducci told the group. "If there are other beings, they are surely more
evolved than we are. We are at the bottom of the ladder for our ability
to 'see good but do evil'."

"Since all of Christianity is based on witness testimony, we must realize
how important testimony is. It would be a tragedy if we began to be
suspicious of all the people who report that they experienced
something unusual like seeing crafts in the sky because there are
some very credible witnesses who have seen these and come
forward," the Vatican official told the group. Harris said he agreed with
CSETI's disclosure initiative, including requests to President Clinton
that government confirmation of ET presence be disclosed.

"Most interesting to me was a question that Steven posed concerning
whether the work of the Devil was included in this phenomenon and it
was appropriate that Padre Balducci should answer since his specialty
was demonologist for the Holy See," wrote Harris, quoting Balducci as
saying that "the devil does not need UFOs to manifest. Neither is most
witnesses suffering from disillusion as they have no reason to invent
such a thing."

It's the third time this year that Catholic leadership has openly
discussed UFOs and their implications for the presence of intelligent
life beyond Earth. In April (Cosmiverse, May 8, 2000), Hebrew scholar
Zecharia Sitchin met with Msr. Balducci to discuss the commonalities in
Judaism and Christianity and the possibility of intelligent life beyond
Earth.

The two met during a conference in Bellaria, Italy that explored "The
Mystery of Human Existence."

"Extraterrestrials could exist on other planets; they can be more
advanced than we; and materially, Man could have been fashioned
from a pre-existing sentient being," the Vatican official told Sitchin.

And in June, an Argentinean Jesuit priest told an international
conference in Rome that he believes "extraterrestrials exist and are our
brothers." Jose Funes also is an astrophysicist and said he thinks the
odds are in favor of extraterrestrial life because of the multitude of
stars in multiple galaxies. "In a typical galaxy there can exist a
multiplicity of planets similar to our Earth, and with living beings like
ourselves. If it is as I believe, they must be considered our brothers in
creation," said Funes. He made the comments during a Vatican
Observatory conference in which more than 250 discussed the
theological implications of the galaxies in the universe. (Cosmiverse,
June 19, 2000).

While traditional modern governments are loathe to acknowledge life
beyond Earth, the Vatican, it appears, is becoming increasingly willing
to publicly discuss the topic.

The Msr. Balducci's meeting in September with Greer and CSETI,
however, is reported to be the first such discussion of a Vatican official
with a ufologist organization. More details and photos from the
September meeting can be found at their Website.

Staff Writer Sally Suddock

Do you think all this alian agenda floating around has any bearing on the rapture issue? I mean what other forces are out there that hold all the attributes of G-d? Kind of spooky to say the least.

[sear]

How do we apportion our belief / faith?
By what we believe to be true?
By what comforts us most?
Other?

I've heard predictions that when Earth's sun turns into a Red Giant, it will engulf Earth's present orbit.
I have no reason to disbelieve this prediction.
I'm guessing that will happen before judgement day.

It is difficult to ask this next question without seeming rude. I do NOT intend it to be rude, but I ask sincerely and constructively; what difference would / should it make? Should our conduct be different, depending upon how we answer this question?

I'm in no rush. But I'm looking forward to accounting for my sins.

[suenoidealruth]

I am pre-trib. I am not a scholar but it seems there are to many things happening that can not occur without a Pre-Trib rapture. That is, If you interpret the scriptures of Revelation as actual rather than allegorical. :D

[David Taylor]

suenoidealruth wrote:
>I am pre-trib. I am not a scholar but it seems there are to many things
>happening that can not occur without a Pre-Trib rapture. That is, If you
>interpret the scriptures of Revelation as actual rather than allegorical.

suenoidealruth,
That is a pretty blanket statement for non-pretrib proponents.
Will you share with us the scriptures of Revelation that non-
pretrib people interpret as allegorical rather than actual?

Thanks in advance for your effort.
Dave Taylor

[ZoneChaos]

I am Pre-Trib!

And, no, Angels are not aliens, aliens are not angels, and when the rapture comes, we are not going to be beamed away on starship... :)

[recoveringcatholic]

Pre-trib here, but be it a-, pre-, mid- or post-, I will be there.

[Renewed Spirit]

Pre-trib believer here. :)

[npetreley]

Me too.

[rab3]

I'm a preterist and a postmillennialist (not post-trib rapture). A minority view, to say the least, but I'm a minority kinda' guy. I voted for Pat (The Patriot) Buchanan!

[der kranich]

<html>

The question really is how do you label yourself.

Usually labels are less descriptive of a person’s thought and usually are just fodder for others to criticize.

What does scripture objectively teach?

On <strong>that day:</strong>

<strong>One</strong> return of Christ

<strong>One</strong> judgement

<strong>One</strong> bodily resurrection

The wicked <strong>at once</strong> cast into a state of eternal wrath

On <strong>that day</strong> a New Heaven and a New Earth


<strong>No</strong> left behind.

<strong>No</strong> second chances.

<strong>No</strong> last second "national" conversions.

<strong>No</strong> physical earthly kingdom.

This is what our reformed fathers taught. This is what our forefathers believed. This is what scripture teaches.


</html>

[Adoni1]

I'm Pre Trib. Don't want to go through it. I believe it will all pan out.

His Alone
Stay Humble

[der kranich]

...translation of the saints is not a magical disappearance of faithful believers from earth. It IS the final day, the bodily resurrection.

The only thing left behind is reprobate mankind and angelic beings. Where they are left behind to is the lake of fire.

[Habakkuk3]

I believe to be Pre-Trib.

[Mont1120]

To believe in the post trib rapture, if we indeed leave the earth at all until we die.

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this was the judgement."

So, if we are raptured, when exactly do we die? Where do we get off not having to bear the same sentence that all mankind before us has paid? Wishful thinking I would surmise.

II Thess. 2: "Let no man decieve you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

That would mean to me that Christians will be here on earth when satan is cast back here from heaven, and if that is true, doesn't that wreck the timeline set forth in Revelations as far as Christians being raptured before the coming of satan?

Then in II Thess. 2:9 says, "Even him, whose coming is AFTER the working of satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

Does that not show Christ will come after satan has given it a last final try?

Then, in I Thess: 4:16, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

If I am correct, that should read the last trump as translated in the KJV, and that would mean Christ is coming at the last sounding of the 7 trumpets, which leaves us here to deal with the seven seals, the seven vials, and the seven trumpets. We will be here.

What I would really like someone to tell me is if the endtimes roll upon us soon, exactly what has ANY of us here done to deserve the gift of riding away on the clouds to heaven, without paying the price. What works have we performed that would make us better then those Christians who have walked before us and paid dearly for their faith?

Yes, we have grace, but Paul clearly wrote, what is faith without works? When were we, in this day and age, refined in the fire? We have had it pretty good for many years now in this country, and we have paid God back by falling so far away from the truth, I'm sure His anger towards us is searing.

So, if you look inside your heart, see if you indeed deserve that grace, it will be there for you as it always was, but there is a price for it. Christ himself paid the ultimate, in a horrible manner too, and I think it will come upon us to test our faith also, whether in death or witness, in a world that will hate us as much as it hates Christ.

Jack

[carma]

Paul also said that some will be alive at the return of Christ. What about them?

Is God going to kill them first?

I Thess 4:15-18
15
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18
Therefore comfort one another with these words.

[JoeyCarmen]

So, if we are raptured, when exactly do we die? Where do we get off not having to bear the same sentence that all mankind before us has paid? Wishful thinking I would surmise.Hmmmm could of swore Jesus paid death
for us on the cross. Did Enoch die? Or how 'bout Elijah?

Appointments can be adjusted, I'm pretty sure God has the authority to do that.

God is not a Genie in a bottle.

[JoeyCarmen]

Hey Hab? Where do I fit in to this poll? I have to THINK more.

[carma]

Again....

Is God going to kill all the survivors when Christ returns?

Paul said that there would be some alive even at the return of Christ (he was not speaking of the rapture).

[Habakkuk3]

Joey - punch the top one and barely dimple the botom one - then go mail it in from India!

God doesn't kill all the survivors, Carma, judges them as sheep or goats.

This is a metaphor, He doesn't change them into animals like Circe, but those

"metaphorically referred to as sheep"

populate the earth in Millennium.

[Mr Willett]

I started this thread four months ago and haven't been back in this forum much since. I can't believe its still going. It has to be the oldest thread going...

[Wearynot]

Mr Willett, are you THINK XP?

[Wearynot]

Okay, who keeps bumping this thread!?!?!?!

[imafungi1]

I think it keeps getting bumped whenever someone votes . . . not necessarily posts.

:)

[Wearynot]

Ohhhhhh, okay. I thought Carma done gone and got mystical again and she was levitatin' it back to the top. Silly me.

[imafungi1]

:lol:

[WomanOfFaith2001]

duh...Pan-Trib here

[Wearynot]

Hmmmm..there's that pan-trib again. I had that leveled as an insult against me a week or so back.

[bunsofaluminum]

Hello there. I'm postmillennial.

anyone else?

:) bunso

[Zafana]

The Bible tells you how the END will come;

Jesus said it is finished on the cross and this is the tribulation; crucified with Christ. So that is the END. From that point on, we are in the resurrection, or post trib.


So the end is at the end of the sin nature, or the end of darkness or the end of Satan. After this Jesus said, "INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT" so now God and Christ Jesus are ONE again in spirit. Jesus Christ commited his spirit to God once again, and once they are ONE, they are one and can not be divided anymore. They were divided while the VAIL is still between the holy place (where we first see the abomination for desolation---the sin nature or man of lawlessness is revealed first, which is the ego or that part of us that thinks it is God, set up in the temple of God).

Jesus life shows us the process of the tribulation; He begins his ministry after he discovers ISRAEL the Dove who is also the Holy spirit or Shekinah landing on him after he descended for DEATH of his sin nature in the Jordan; he said this is to show all righteousness. So the descension which is the WATER BAPTISM is first; what is water baptism??? We become completely immersed in the word of God which DROWNS out the wicked one, the sin nature, the man of lawlessness. As the days of Noah so will be the coming of the "son of man"; we were doing all the normal things we are supposed to do and SUDDENLY destruction will come. This falling into the Jordan-descending to death or the PIT, wherein we fall suddenly, just as we are saying peace peace, will come at our appointed hour and Jesus said to be ready always for we dont know the HOUR our father has appointed our visitation.

When we rise we know we rise as Israel, the true soul and inheritance of God. Israel is the treasure "BURIED" in the field and the field is the world and when you descend to the buried place, death, you find the treasure.

Now the spirit takes Jesus into the wilderness just as the WINGS OF THE EAGLE take the woman _Israel into the wilderness after she gives birth to the malechild-the begotten of God. This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased; here he goes to a place PREPARED FOR HER while Satan gets to cast out the flood (water baptism of the word he tries to stumble you with). The woman Israel who is on earth or the kingdom on earth--OPENS HER MOUTH and swallows the flood of the word and CONFESSES unto salvation. Im showing you how to put the scriptures together here.

This is a place prepared while she is confessing unto salvation and her TONGUE IS BEING PURIFIED after the end of the sin nature to receive the PURE WORD OF GOD; Just as the ISRAELITES had to cross the RED SEA (water baptism) to get to the wilderness of Sinai to later come to the MOUNT to get the FIRE baptism, the TEN COMMANDMENTS or the LAW, which we will get when it is circumcised into our HEART through our mouth for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Hebrews tells us not to be afraid to approach ZION like Israel was afraid of Sinai; this time we want to get through the chastisment of a son and remember, we know we are sons of God after we are baptised by the water and have ascended as ISRAEL. Exodus 4:22 Israel is Gods son. Israel fell for the sake of the gentiles Romans 11; is the elect of God for the fathers sake. ALL Israel will be saved as they approach Zion.

it is a frightening thing to stand in the presence of the LIVING GOD For our God is a consuming FIRE (here is that baptism of getting the pure language in the upper room which is the upper world of Zion) spiritually we have to be in zion, a light set on that hill so others can see us and glorify our father who is in heaven.

Once we are lifted up to Zion by the fiery flying serpent, ie the ONE ISRAEL looks upon to LIVE, held by Moses (Messiah to Israel), they will have a pure language and be WISE AS SERPENTS but harmless as DOVES---Israel.

let me know if you can identify what part of the tribulation you will be raptured in??

[carma]

Oh gee, some Replacement Theology thrown in there.

Careful Zafana, Replacement Theology is a big no-no and God hates it.

[Zafana]

Im not sure what replacement theology is but if you mean that I say Israel is not Israel, Im not saying that at all. Im saying that Israel will be as the sands of the sea so many without number and as the stars of heaven. You cant have that happen when you keep em in a small corner of the world. The whole world will be Israel for no man will say KNOW GOD, for all will know me from the least to the greatest.

no one is replacing anything but only Israel will be saved. Israel is the LIGHT OF THE GENTILE, meaning the light within us is Israel, the son of God: that goes for EVERYONE. No one is replacing anything but the sin nature with the son of God. People love that sin nature and thats how we know the fruit? the good tree cant bring forth evil anymore. Israel is the tree planted by the LORD, by the LIVING Waters. I just have the big picture; I dont replace the Church for Israel.

[carma]

Replacement Theology is saying the Church is Israel.

Now tell me where scripture says that only Israel will be saved, that is just not so.

[Zafana]

Again Carma, I didnt say ONLY Israel will be saved; I said ALL ISRAEL will be saved and Israel will be as the sands of the sea and as numerous as the stars in the heavens.

also, replacement theology I explained, is not what Im talking about. Jesus came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, first; I explained how this is the soul. Hosea talks about Israel being no more and yet as numerous as the sands of the sea and stars in heaven, just as God promised Abraham he would make him a father of many nations and Israel will be of many nations.


my writings are like the scriptures since I use only scriptures to speak of what I believe, but they are put together in such a way that no one recognizes them that way till they read them a few times.

[carma]

Zafana,

You might not realize it, but this is what you said, first sentence of your 2nd paragraph:

no one is replacing anything but only Israel will be saved.

That says, only Israel will be saved.

Now Israel is not "no more". God has put them aside for a season, but they are still there.

[savinggrc]

Posttrib, pan mill. Once we're in eternity, it'll all pan out. :)

[Zafana]

Carma, you said:

Now Israel is not "no more". God has put them aside for a season, but they are still there.

yes, that is my message; Israel is the treasure buried in the field and the field is the world; Jesus found it but buried it awhile longer. It is our true soul that will be revealed in this end time; How do I know??? it was revealed in me; Israel, my true soul is the light of the gentile; in other words, Israel, which is Gods son (Exodus 4:22) fell for the sake of the gentile and is hidden in his carnal nature;

at the right time, the carnal nature will be done away with, Israel is revealed, or as Paul said, WHEN GOD CHOSE TO REVEAL HIS SON IN ME, ie Israel, he understood the meaning of scripture.

now he was Israel before, but not till he Israel, the real meaning of Israel was revealed, did he understand what God was doing. Israel bears the ROOT of the tree; Romans 11 and if the ROOT is holy, the whole tree is holy;

we are trees of life, or knowledge of good AND EVIL; either make the whole tree good or evil. Christ comes to PULL the evil side up by the ROOT and restore ISRAEL again.

Jacob only became Israel when he was through wrestling with God all NIGHT.

I am explaining spiritual meanings here; The inner Israel must be revealed before the OUTER Israel becomes obedient to Gods will. The physical resurrection is the last phase of LIFE; first the inner man must be completed; People have a hard time with that.

[carma]

yes, that is my message; Israel is the treasure buried in the field and the field is the world; Jesus found it but buried it awhile longer. It is our true soul that will be revealed in this end time; How do I know??? it was revealed in me; Israel, my true soul is the light of the gentile; in other words, Israel, which is Gods son (Exodus 4:22) fell for the sake of the gentile and is hidden in his carnal nature;

Are you saying that YOU have received private revelation and interpretation from God?

Oh, Israel being the root.....nope, Christ is the root. The Gentiles and Israel are grafted into Christ, the Gentiles are not grafted into Israel. Christ is what brings salvation, not Israel or the Church.

[Zafana]

Hi Carma

I didnt get private revelation, which would be from myself, but revelation from God, which always lines up with his word; it is in fact the revelation of the word of God.

as far as Christ being the root, you are right; but now you have to understand all that Christ is; only what Christians call the OT will be able to fill in all the parts of the puzzle since Jesus Christ fulfilled the Torah, and must reveal it to us.

[carma]

Private revelation about Christ....I have a very hard time with that.

[Zafana]

I get it Carma and I will leave not to return, but let me ask you,

how do you know the interpretation you have of the Bible right now is not "private" and all your own??

what makes you think it belongs to anyone else??

Where did you get your particular interpretation?? Did you get it in the Bible itself??

If you did how? and if you take it at face value, then how do deal with all the symbolism?

how do you deal with all the verses that say CHRIST must reveal the truth to you, and how do you know he has, and that you are not going by someone else interpretation of scripture rather than Christs?

Just a few questions you can ask yourself at your convinience.

[carma]

I get it Carma and I will leave not to return, but let me ask you....

You get what????

New revelation is just not supported in scripture, Zafana.

Now maybe we are confusing terms, wanna explain what you mean by new revelation?

I have a hard time with "something new under the sun" being revealed to someone.

[Zafana]

Carma

There is nothing new under the sun including the gospel; did you know Paul said it was around from the beginning and the book of Revelation calls it the EVERLASTING GOSPEL??

John tells us that those who read and "UNDERSTAND" the book of revelation are blessed; why?? because for them the book OPENS and they are not given anything NEW, but understanding of what has always been. Revelation is the whole purpose of the Bible. we need to grasp the revelation of Jesus Christ, which is what this book is, and in doing this, we find out as Paul said; we dont know what he is like, but we know when WE SEE HIM (revelation) we will be like him.

If you dont understand, you can read the book till the cows come home and as a man thinks so is he; the way we UNDERSTAND and think of the scriptures is how we are spiritually. The Bible is sufficient for all things, but man is at so many various stages of understanding the WORD of God, that he is stuck with his own thoughts about it till he is willing to be transformed by the RENEWING POWER OF THE WORD in your MIND till you receive the MIND OF CHRIST.

You can hold onto Carma's mind and say its the BIBLE but I am here to tell you that you love your mind more than the mind of Christ if you are not willing to be transformed into his mind.

How do you think it will happen??? Do you think he will send another WORD, another option??? No, its all completed; we have to FIND THIS TRUTH and be set free.

[carma]

Zafana,

I don't know what tangent you're on, but not only did you not really answer my question, but what all you said really didn't have anything to do with what I asked.

::shrug::

[Flinthead]

Zafana,

You BLESSED ME SO MUCH and i do understand you completely.

We know that when a spiritual Being speak of the truth, the carnal mind or natural being cannot comprehend the meaning of the spiritual understanding of the scripture.

SPIRITUAL MEANING OF THE “GREAT TRIBULATION”.

To be under the law is also the “great tribulation” which each believer is delivered from. What greater tribulation can there be for the spirit than to be under the curse of God?

Revelation 7:13-14.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Every true born again believer, without exception, has come out of “great tribulation”, which is being under the old covenant, and seeing only the letter of the Word. And every true believer has washed his robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. In my own case, being under the law was a tremendous tribulation for me. I tried so hard to keep the commandments of God, as I saw them in the letter of the Word. Yet I could not keep them well enough to satisfy myself that I was truly saved.

I was positive I was going to Hell, and this fear began to manifest itself physically. I could not eat or sleep for a month, and thought for sure I would lose my mind before too soon. In the spiritual sense I was “sweating great drops of blood” like Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:44). Yet not long after this, I was delivered from my tribulation, my “old man” was crucified with Christ, and I began to partake of the “power of his resurrection” (Philippians 3:10). I now count everything I understood and was taught in the organized church as ”dung”, just like Paul (Philippians 3::cool: . For me, only the spirit of the Word can satisfy, the letter is nothing but tribulation and death for my spirit.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/posticons/pi_cooldude.gif Flint

[carma]

And yet Jesus Himself said there would be a literal tribulation that is like no other time before or ever to be again.

While the spiritual is important, it is also just as important to know and understand there are some very literal events yet to happen.

[Flinthead]

There is no LIteral or physical event but rather spiritual. His words are spirit and life.

"All matter must therefore be a "shadow" of spiritual things, a figure of God. And we know this is true because God uses physical things in his Scriptures and calls them "shadows", "figures", "allegories", "proverbs", "parables", "examples" and "patterns". God uses the physical things of the universe, such as stars, chariots, water, fire, people, swords, houses, clothes etc. as "figures" for spiritual things. Why? Because we cannot understand the spiritual directly - only indirectly, through metaphor. God and Spirit are eternal, we are temporal - thus God uses temporal objects to teach us about eternal things. hope this help Carma

Flint

[carma]

There is no LIteral or physical event but rather spiritual. His words are spirit and life.

Oh, is that so?

I am a literal person, this earth is a literal earth.

Did Jesus Christ literally come to this earth and literally hang on a cross?

[Flinthead]

There is the flesh man that walked the earth, whom anyone could see, typifying the letter of the Word that anyone can see and understand. That was the Son of Man. Hidden within that flesh man was a spirit, and that was the spirit of God. That is the Son of God, the spirit of the Word. All that was left when the flesh man died on the Cross was the spirit, that which is eternal. He arose from the grave a spiritual man, not a flesh man. To look for the flesh man to return is to look for the old covenant to return, which means no salvation. This is why only believers saw the resurrected Christ, because only believers can see the spirit of the Word that “gives life”. When we begin to see the spirit in the Word, the flesh Christ goes away, never to return, and only the spirit of the
Word “remains”. May the Lord give you the understanding.

Flint

[carma]

No need to go through the "physically resurrected" issue again. Just go to threads that Marilyn has posted in.

We've already been through this, the physical is not a bad thing.

Why do you people feel the need to come from Marilyn board and post here?

You won't get the high 5's here and I really don't know of any on this board that are interested in what you are selling.

[Wearynot]

Hey, hey, hey, I got a patent pending on that "high-fivin' fanny-slapping, robe kissing, kinda sycophantic terminology.




not really edited by Wearynot, this is just your imagination, pay no attention to the line below. You are being deceived.

[Zafana]

Carma,

one more post to try to clear up the flesh and blood thing;

that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit.

A lot of people love THIS PHYSICAL life so much, they dont want anything to do with the spiritual life, but ONLY THE MEEK, ie those who are BORN OF THE SPIRIT will inherit the earth. Yes there will be a physical resurrection, but not for those who are NOT BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

this is the time of spiritual birth and understanding and then you will get a NEW BODY, as Jesus showed through his process; DEATH and then NEW LIFE.

Christians love their OLD LIFE so much, they want JESUS to come back as a flesh and blood man when he showed he would only RETURN BONE and FLESH, which Paul said there are many kinds of flesh and this flesh, is only seen by the spiritual eyes; If you want to stay in your flesh and blood you cant inherit the Kingdom;

why do Christians fault the Jews for wanting to keep the OT when they are even worse for the most part, wanting to turn the NT into carnal ordinances more than the Jew does. you see, the time is here for understanding and he who saves his life will lose it and he who looses his life for my sake will find it to life eternal. you have been told; no one can "MAKE" you see but God.

[carma]

Sorry Zafana, scripture says that He will return, just as He left, in the clouds and a physical, GLORIFIED body.

At the resurrection, those that have died and those that are still living, will be changed, we will be just as He is, physical, GLORIFIED bodies.

Don't limit God.


Wearynot, I just used the "high five" thang. :)

[Wearynot]

I wuz jes kiddin' ya.

[carma]

I know that. :)

[Wearynot]

::snicker:: Check yer mail.

[savinggrc]

"high-fivin' fanny-slapping, robe kissing, kinda syncophantic terminology."

can ya add "greased-lightning" to that list? :lol:

[Habakkuk3]

"high-fivin' fanny-slapping, robe kissing,

kinda sycophantic terminology."
.

.


He_Was_Not Editing or Spell-Checking on 11/13/33


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[Wearynot]

I have no earthly idea what you are talking about.

[filosofer]

I guess my vote bumped this up again. I am amillennial regarding eschatology.

[hoopler]

I pressed the wrong one! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o">
I meant mid
I don't let it bother me much tho. Get on with the job. :rollin:

[Australopithecus]

Eternity is actually OVER -- people just don't know that yet...

[Athlon4all]

I am fully a Pre-Trib Rap. I feel that in I Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul makes it clear that Christ will bring his church to him before the Tribulation starts.