kingisjesus
1st October 2005, 12:07 PM
I found this on some blog church.
Comments are welcome.
Predestination, Faith, & salvation, How Do They Interlink?
Person1]
(Romans 8:29)"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."
Those who God foreknew would be the objects of his mercy, were predestined.to be conformed into the kind of Man who walks after the Spirit of God. They were predestined to be made holy and pure. Therefor it is the power of God which enables us to walk after the Spirit. We are called to live Holy lives, but some will say:
Person2] We are all going to sin, so how can anyone live a holy life?
Person1]
(1 John 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. So according to the above, we can confess our sins and be forgiven.
Person2] How can it be that easy to be forgiven?
Person1] Have you not heard the gospel?
(Romans 1:17N.I.V.)For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,
just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith.
(Romans 3:22-23)This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
(Romans 4:5)However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness
(Habakkuk 2:4);but the righteous will live by his faith.
So now righteousness can be added to us if we have faith.
The question is now: What is faith?
#4102 Lexicon Results for pistis (Strong's 4102) pistis {pis'-tis}
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and joined with it; a) relating to God
1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ
1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in thekingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on
Person2] Interesting. Then to firmly believe something of religious nature is to have "faith"?
Person1]According to the definition, it is.
person2] So if all I have to do is believe that, Jesus Died for my sins and was raised from the dead, then why can’t I continuing living in my old sinful practices? Won’t I be forgiven anyway. Isn’t that why Jesus came?
Person1] The answer is no.
The Gospel is this: Jesus died, rose from the dead, and went to heaven so that we can not only be forgiven of past sins, but so that we will have the power of the new life (through his resurrection) in the Holy Spirit to live according to the ways of love and holiness. This is the gospel that Paul, John, and the writer of Hebrews preached.
(Hebrews 10:26-29)If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
(1 John 2:3-6) We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love
is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
(1 John 3:5-10)But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
(1 John 5:18) We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
(Romans 2:7-8)To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
(Romans 6:2-18)By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless,
that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
(Romans 8:12-14)Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Person2]But what of Predestination? I thought People were predestined.
Person1]They are. Have you read what Paul said?
(Romans 11:6-15) And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Person2] So according to this, God caused the Jews to reject Jesus. It says that He did this to bring salvation the the gentiles. So if then faith is required for us to be partakers of the grace of God, how is it that God caused many of the Jews to not have faith? How is it that we can chose weather or not we want to believe if it is God who either hardens or softens our hearts?
Person1] Good question. It is to fulfill his plan for the world. Look at what the apostle says:
(Romans 9:7-23) Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."
In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."
Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
\fs16fs16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.
God then hardens the hearts of some and softens the hearts of others. It is still required for us to have faith. If then we believe the gospel that means we have been softened so as to receive it.
We have faith and God gives us his favor. The only thing God has done to lead me to his love and grace is soften my heart and lead me into the situation for me to hear the good news of Jesus. I then believed the good news, and God had mercy on me be cleansing me by the blood of Jesus Christ. I have now the power to follow the holiness of Jesus Christ. I have this power because of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ which was given to live in me.
(Romans 8:9-10) You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
This is the source:http://www.seo-blog.org/13049_the_internet_church (http://www.seo-blog.org/13049_the_internet_church)
Comments are welcome.
Predestination, Faith, & salvation, How Do They Interlink?
Person1]
(Romans 8:29)"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."
Those who God foreknew would be the objects of his mercy, were predestined.to be conformed into the kind of Man who walks after the Spirit of God. They were predestined to be made holy and pure. Therefor it is the power of God which enables us to walk after the Spirit. We are called to live Holy lives, but some will say:
Person2] We are all going to sin, so how can anyone live a holy life?
Person1]
(1 John 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. So according to the above, we can confess our sins and be forgiven.
Person2] How can it be that easy to be forgiven?
Person1] Have you not heard the gospel?
(Romans 1:17N.I.V.)For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,
just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith.
(Romans 3:22-23)This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
(Romans 4:5)However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness
(Habakkuk 2:4);but the righteous will live by his faith.
So now righteousness can be added to us if we have faith.
The question is now: What is faith?
#4102 Lexicon Results for pistis (Strong's 4102) pistis {pis'-tis}
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and joined with it; a) relating to God
1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ
1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in thekingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on
Person2] Interesting. Then to firmly believe something of religious nature is to have "faith"?
Person1]According to the definition, it is.
person2] So if all I have to do is believe that, Jesus Died for my sins and was raised from the dead, then why can’t I continuing living in my old sinful practices? Won’t I be forgiven anyway. Isn’t that why Jesus came?
Person1] The answer is no.
The Gospel is this: Jesus died, rose from the dead, and went to heaven so that we can not only be forgiven of past sins, but so that we will have the power of the new life (through his resurrection) in the Holy Spirit to live according to the ways of love and holiness. This is the gospel that Paul, John, and the writer of Hebrews preached.
(Hebrews 10:26-29)If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
(1 John 2:3-6) We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love
is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
(1 John 3:5-10)But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
(1 John 5:18) We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
(Romans 2:7-8)To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
(Romans 6:2-18)By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless,
that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
(Romans 8:12-14)Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Person2]But what of Predestination? I thought People were predestined.
Person1]They are. Have you read what Paul said?
(Romans 11:6-15) And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Person2] So according to this, God caused the Jews to reject Jesus. It says that He did this to bring salvation the the gentiles. So if then faith is required for us to be partakers of the grace of God, how is it that God caused many of the Jews to not have faith? How is it that we can chose weather or not we want to believe if it is God who either hardens or softens our hearts?
Person1] Good question. It is to fulfill his plan for the world. Look at what the apostle says:
(Romans 9:7-23) Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."
In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."
Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
\fs16fs16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.
God then hardens the hearts of some and softens the hearts of others. It is still required for us to have faith. If then we believe the gospel that means we have been softened so as to receive it.
We have faith and God gives us his favor. The only thing God has done to lead me to his love and grace is soften my heart and lead me into the situation for me to hear the good news of Jesus. I then believed the good news, and God had mercy on me be cleansing me by the blood of Jesus Christ. I have now the power to follow the holiness of Jesus Christ. I have this power because of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ which was given to live in me.
(Romans 8:9-10) You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
This is the source:http://www.seo-blog.org/13049_the_internet_church (http://www.seo-blog.org/13049_the_internet_church)