Open letter:

[CovenantRay]

Shalom Brethren:
Last night, I posted a response to a contentious thread. I thought long and hard about what to say. There's still some points to be made here and the contentious post that worked up my ire is gone. So I offer it to the brethren -- mishbocha if you prefer, an open letter. Before injecting us with your venom -- should who-ever-might-you-be -- please consider the following:

Where is the "fruit" of your arguments? How are these arguments "edifying" the members of the forum? For reference, to edify, you must build up, not tear down.

I give you the following scripture references to make my points -- and to back up Debi b's about "love"... In all scripture references, emphasis mine.

Regarding "fruit" Ephesians 4:15-17 (MKJV) and the rest of the chapter:

(Eph 4:15) But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him who is the Head, even Christ;
(Eph 4:16) from whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love.
(Eph 4:17) This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should not walk from now on as other nations walk, in the vanity of their mind,

Regarding "fruit" Matthew 7:15-23 (HNV) and the whole chapter:

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?'
Mat 7:23 Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

Regarding "love": I offer 1 Corinthians 13, the whole chapter (HNV):

(1Co 13:1) If I speak with the languages of men and of angels, but don't have love, I have become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
(1Co 13:2) If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have love, I am nothing.
(1Co 13:3) If I dole out all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but don't have love, it profits me nothing.
(1Co 13:4) Love is patient and is kind; love doesn't envy. Love doesn't brag, is not proud,
(1Co 13:5) doesn't behave itself inappropriately, doesn't seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil;
(1Co 13:6) doesn't rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
(1Co 13:7) bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
(1Co 13:8) Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will be done away with. Where there are various languages, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will be done away with.
(1Co 13:9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
(1Co 13:10) but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.
(1Co 13:11) When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things.
(1Co 13:12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.
(1Co 13:13) But now faith, hope, and love remain--these three. The greatest of these is love.


Now I ask you to carefully consider the following questions:

1) Where is your fruit and is it good?
2) Are you edifying the body, or are you tearing it down?
3) Where is your love, or is it lacking?


As always in love, bearing good fruit, attempting to edify the brethren,

CovenantRay :prayer:

[stone]

maybe some feel more comfortable with the veil over their eyes?

and threatened by attempts to remove it?

[plum]

thank you Ray. I admire you and your peaceful, loving heart.

[DrMcDonald]

Ray, Todah Rabah I thank you for the reminder. I have to remember that when we teach to remember to be clear, and do it in love.

Anger and posting with out forthought and prayer damages us as well as others. Again Thank you I appreciate the reminder.

Mac

[Tishri1]

big hug for Covenant Ray:groupray::thumbsup::amen::wave::clap:

[CovenantRay]

Shalom Mishbocha:

I would like to thank you all for the reputation, PMs, and responses of support and agreement. Too often, we as people, are drawn into contention--where is the fruit?

My exhortation is clear and includes myself.

Todah Rabah,

CovenantRay :prayer:

[Vaneeza Malkah]

I was thinking that we could include more fun posts around here, I feel all the debate lately is spiritually draining but I don't have any idea where to start.

[stone]

You messianic judaism folk are a diamond in the rough for me. My attraction here is that everything you say and do is backed unquestionably 100% by scripture. I see no errors here with you guys. Discovering this group is truely a blessing from our father.

One thing i'll say before i leave, is that, after i started eating kosher, our father spoke to me and said i was doing good. I'll be back. lol **thinks of the terminator***

My path is long and hard, i must be moveing on. The rules being what they are,, i can't say anything, but that's just the way it is to be. I'll stop by from time to time. I'll be looking for updates from Erin, i really enjoy reading of her adventures in Israel.

:wave:

[CovenantRay]

Shalom Mispocha:

Some recent posts from a new CF member have prompted me to bump this thread. Please consider the point in the original post. As always, your comments and commentary, as well as additional scripture references are welcome.

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:

[BarbB]

I really like your OP, CovenantRay. Plus I love that stone left and came back! :hug:

Now, if you would just post your OP in Spirit-filled P/C which has lately become evil-spirit-filled I would appreciate it! :clap:

[CovenantRay]

I really like your OP, CovenantRay. Plus I love that stone left and came back! :hug:

Now, if you would just post your OP in Spirit-filled P/C which has lately become evil-spirit-filled I would appreciate it! :clap:

Thank you Newlamb for your approval. You're welcome to post there and link to this post if you like. I've decided to pretty much stay here and the biblical archaelogy forums. When I go elsewhere, I find it difficult to maintain my "cool" and follow my own advice in the OP.

It's rather like someone having a problem with alcohol avoiding the bars...

CovenantRay :prayer:

[HaNotsri]

<::: Rediculously confused, but I appreciate and applaud Covenant's post above!

[jgonz]

Like HaNatsri, I'm completely confused, but I appreciate and applaud Ray's post above.

[CovenantRay]

Dear Mispocha:

I am driven, perhaps obsessively so, to be accurate when I speak or post. When there's criticism for criticism's sake, or hate for hate's sake, I have a problem being dispassionate, calm, cool, and collected.

When the proper provocation occurs, as comes up from time-to-time, I leave the rebuttal to others. Perhaps it's cowardace, perhaps it's discretion is the greater part of valor, perhaps it is casting pearls before swine, perhaps .... you decide.

When I know that I have a weakness in my spiritual walk, I pray about it, give it to HaShem to mold me and make me as he sees fit. Until emboldened by the Ruach HaKodesh, I'll avoid those things that "push my buttons".

I hope this takes away the mystery, as I wish to be open and honest with my mispocha.

CovenantRay :prayer:

[BarbB]

Thank you Newlamb for your approval. You're welcome to post there and link to this post if you like. I've decided to pretty much stay here and the biblical archaelogy forums. When I go elsewhere, I find it difficult to maintain my "cool" and follow my own advice in the OP.

It's rather like someone having a problem with alcohol avoiding the bars...

CovenantRay :prayer:

Not me, friend. I've learned my lesson, especially after a severe talking to by a mod who's WOF. Soooo....

My fruit has not been so good recently because of getting involved in those threads and having my feelings hurt and wanting to strike back. I'm only gradually getting back to normal and it doesn't feel good to be so in the physical.

Can I vent a little more? Thank you to my captive audience. Yesterday Pastor announced that the church is going to go through 40 Days of Purpose again - I guess that it didn't pull the church completely down last year, so we're going to see if it can be flattened in 2006. He's a dear man and when he preaches from his heart and the Bible no one does it better, but he's been preaching from man recently (Warren and Osteen) and my heart's breaking. I feel like my fruit's getting squished. I may need to move my tree. :)

[Tishri1]

rofl :D

[Sephania]

An Oldie but a Goodie, lets take her for a spin again shall we? :)

:pray:

[BarbB]

Not me, friend. I've learned my lesson, especially after a severe talking to by a mod who's WOF. Soooo....

My fruit has not been so good recently because of getting involved in those threads and having my feelings hurt and wanting to strike back. I'm only gradually getting back to normal and it doesn't feel good to be so in the physical.

Can I vent a little more? Thank you to my captive audience. Yesterday Pastor announced that the church is going to go through 40 Days of Purpose again - I guess that it didn't pull the church completely down last year, so we're going to see if it can be flattened in 2006. He's a dear man and when he preaches from his heart and the Bible no one does it better, but he's been preaching from man recently (Warren and Osteen) and my heart's breaking. I feel like my fruit's getting squished. I may need to move my tree. :)

Well, this is my post from Jan 2nd and I'd love to post my situation now.

I have only been to my Church of God, which taught me so much about worship and loving G-d, twice since I wrote this post. Happily, once was the youth pastor preaching and he was inexperienced but passionate and it was wonderful. What I have done is committed myself to a house congregation of between 6 and 20 Messianics and it has been wonderful. I have learned so much and have experienced such intense worship and have grown so close to the others in the congregation - I never expected to have such close friends. I'm not a joiner by nature. But I love these people!

Also, here on CF I'm pretty well restricting myself to MJ and now fighting antisemitism on Christian Current Events. Spirit-filled argues about anything at all - you can be posting happily along and someone will attack you as being not Christian enough or not spiritual enough. They don't teach - they trash. So, I guess I'll remove myself from the unedifying areas and stay with you guys where I have learned so much! :hug:

[Tishri1]

Since last year, I left an unedifying MJ shul and joined a very edifying one a little farther away...still attending the same church (been a year now), hoping ABBA will use me to bring in the Hebrew Roots/MJ teaching there (or a dance class or both!)...

My whole outlook on both the church and MJ is more pleasant since the move away from that shul ...it was overly critical of the church (to many wounded people in one small group) and of the MJ movement at the same time:doh:

If I had to pinpoint a flaw in many MJ groups/shuls it would be criticalness...:sigh:

Yet my biggest praise for MJ's is JOY, sheer JOY in their services , celebrations, and individual lives...

Funny huh? Two such extreme attributes living in the same movement:scratch:

I say we should purposely keep the critical spirit in check at all times (notice I didnt say trash it, as it does have it's place:thumbsup:)...and let the spirit of JOY RUN FREE!:clap:

[Wags]

It is important to be critical - we are admonished in scritpure to be critical.

Ok - now you are sure Wags has gone of the deep end :D

But bear with me - one of the definitions of the word critical is: Characterized by careful, exact evaluation and judgment. This is what I'm refering too. We need to do a careful evaluation of all things that are being taught.

Nothing wrong with Joy, but I see an awful lot of people get caught up in staying in the Joy and refuse to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. (Philippians 2)

As for fighting the rampant anti-semetism found in parts of CF - my hubby says that is spiritual warfare and we are all aware of what we need to do before we go into battle.

[Sephania]

I think some are given more discernment than others, it is a gift. Some have it born in them some ask for it to better the kingdom, some are happy where they are and don't want to see what wrong to be able to improve it.

Many like to point a finger and say "you are judging, we aren't supposed to judge'' but that is a satanic , yes satanic twist of scripture. We are to judge, our brothers, that is, those who are believers , and by judge I mean if we see one sinning. If we say nothing we are as guilty as they are. But we are not to judge the unbeleiver, that is G-ds place.

For Sh'aul said, do you not know that you should judge even angels? And if angels how much more things that pertain to this life?

But we are also cautioned to be as wise as serpents but and this is a BIG BUT! as harmless as doves.

I myself have fallen into being more like a viper, not meaning to, but because of circumstances and spiritual cloudings, and when we see this we must repent of it.


Seeking to be as a dove.............................

[BarbB]

How nice to see how much we seem to have grown in a mere 6 months! May this continue! :wave:

[Victrixa]

"As for fighting the rampant anti-semetism found in parts of CF - my hubby says that is spiritual warfare and we are all aware of what we need to do before we go into battle." -post by Wags

(sorry features don't work on the reply procedure - can't quote or do anything!)

Yes, this is spiritual warfare, definitively so! I am reading a book on spiritual warfare and it mentions that courtesy is a characteristic of the Kingdom of G-d. Being impolite is the way of the Evil One so we should always be courteous, no matter what. How can a believer do spiritual warfare while taking on a characteristic of the Adversary?

Thank you for this thread, it's very edifying. And I love this forum (MJ) too!

Shalom!

[MattyJames]

Well, In light of the thread, I'm a newbie! I can definately see how you have all progressed. It can only point to better days ahead, as we grow in wisdom and maturaty of Faith. Ahhh yes this is a topic that is often brought up to me by other "Christians". I am "too judgemental." The chorus of voices can be overwhelming at times, but it can never kill the spirit.From a peronal point, what have I learned since comming into contact with this view of Passivisim?? Well let me put it this way. Between last Shabbat and today, there has been 2000 unborn babies murdered under the guise of "Free choice" upon the alter of "Sexual Liberisim." That makes me angry, very angry.But wait, I am angry at the fact that Australia has the second largerst Gay and Lesbian Marti-gra in the world (Second to Rio herself.); I am angry that the Anglican "Church" has further debased the "faith" by allowing Homosexual Ordination; I am angry that supposed "Children of Abraham" (Christians),deny the Jews the right the right of self defence; I am angry that the modern "Church" calls good, evil and evil, good; I am angry that a so called "Evangalisim Orginisation" call "Impact World Tour" is just one big cultral/ Heathen festival with a hint of "Christ"; I am angry that there are so many labourers asleep, when the harvest is soooo ripe; I am angry at the apathy found within Christianity; I am angry that the Word of God is not longer taught in our schools and class rooms; I am angry that Evolution has become a viable substitue for Creation; I am angry that Womens rights in the Middle East Muslim Countries is over look by govenments and most Christian orgainisations; I am angry that the Australian Public has been "dis-armed" under the guise of "Security";...do you get the point?? See, Passivisim hasn't got us too far. To sit and say nothing, is to let death reign. So I won't be silent. I won't back down. I won't let them tell me "your a legalist", "Your under bondage", "your an extreemist". I will speak while I can.Please don't get all defecive on me. Yes...I am young, and most likely nieve, and one day I may well eat these words, but for now, this is where I stand.So, I spose many would think that to be this angry would also lead to bitterness. Well not to me is hasn't. I cried last night during our Sabbath Worship. I laughed yesterday afternoon when I was playing with my puppy. I still get all gooy inside when I think that Mums about to have another baby. I still stop to smell the roses.I'm not sure how to say it, but we must be carefull not to be Passive. Its time someone started laying out the hard lines. I'm sick of seeing the innocent, the fatherless, the widows and the poor get hurt. And if the least I can do is speak out. Than I will do it with all I've got.I hope I haven't come across as forward. As I younger member of this modest gathering, I will not be upset at the rebuttal of the elders. If I have said anything out of place, please do let me know.Shabbat Shalom to All!!!Matt James

[visionary]

Well, In light of the thread, I'm a newbie! I can definately see how you have all progressed. It can only point to better days ahead, as we grow in wisdom and maturaty of Faith. Ahhh yes this is a topic that is often brought up to me by other "Christians". I am "too judgemental." The chorus of voices can be overwhelming at times, but it can never kill the spirit.From a peronal point, what have I learned since comming into contact with this view of Passivisim?? Well let me put it this way. Between last Shabbat and today, there has been 2000 unborn babies murdered under the guise of "Free choice" upon the alter of "Sexual Liberisim." That makes me angry, very angry.But wait, I am angry at the fact that Australia has the second largerst Gay and Lesbian Marti-gra in the world (Second to Rio herself.); I am angry that the Anglican "Church" has further debased the "faith" by allowing Homosexual Ordination; I am angry that supposed "Children of Abraham" (Christians),deny the Jews the right the right of self defence; I am angry that the modern "Church" calls good, evil and evil, good; I am angry that a so called "Evangalisim Orginisation" call "Impact World Tour" is just one big cultral/ Heathen festival with a hint of "Christ"; I am angry that there are so many labourers asleep, when the harvest is soooo ripe; I am angry at the apathy found within Christianity; I am angry that the Word of God is not longer taught in our schools and class rooms; I am angry that Evolution has become a viable substitue for Creation; I am angry that Womens rights in the Middle East Muslim Countries is over look by govenments and most Christian orgainisations; I am angry that the Australian Public has been "dis-armed" under the guise of "Security";...do you get the point?? See, Passivisim hasn't got us too far. To sit and say nothing, is to let death reign. So I won't be silent. I won't back down. I won't let them tell me "your a legalist", "Your under bondage", "your an extreemist". I will speak while I can.Please don't get all defecive on me. Yes...I am young, and most likely nieve, and one day I may well eat these words, but for now, this is where I stand.So, I spose many would think that to be this angry would also lead to bitterness. Well not to me is hasn't. I cried last night during our Sabbath Worship. I laughed yesterday afternoon when I was playing with my puppy. I still get all gooy inside when I think that Mums about to have another baby. I still stop to smell the roses.I'm not sure how to say it, but we must be carefull not to be Passive. Its time someone started laying out the hard lines. I'm sick of seeing the innocent, the fatherless, the widows and the poor get hurt. And if the least I can do is speak out. Than I will do it with all I've got.I hope I haven't come across as forward. As I younger member of this modest gathering, I will not be upset at the rebuttal of the elders. If I have said anything out of place, please do let me know.Shabbat Shalom to All!!!Matt JamesLove your passion... The Lord is just as passionate about all these issues and more... He will cleanse His temple but once more... in preparation for the final judgment. May we all become a House of Continual Constant Prayer.

[Sephania]

Well, In light of the thread, I'm a newbie! I can definately see how you have all progressed. It can only point to better days ahead, as we grow in wisdom and maturaty of Faith. Ahhh yes this is a topic that is often brought up to me by other &quot;Christians&quot;. I am &quot;too judgemental.&quot; The chorus of voices can be overwhelming at times, but it can never kill the spirit.From a peronal point, what have I learned since comming into contact with this view of Passivisim?? Well let me put it this way. Between last Shabbat and today, there has been 2000 unborn babies murdered under the guise of &quot;Free choice&quot; upon the alter of &quot;Sexual Liberisim.&quot; That makes me angry, very angry.But wait, I am angry at the fact that Australia has the second largerst Gay and Lesbian Marti-gra in the world (Second to Rio herself.); I am angry that the Anglican &quot;Church&quot; has further debased the &quot;faith&quot; by allowing Homosexual Ordination; I am angry that supposed &quot;Children of Abraham&quot; (Christians),deny the Jews the right the right of self defence; I am angry that the modern &quot;Church&quot; calls good, evil and evil, good; I am angry that a so called &quot;Evangalisim Orginisation&quot; call &quot;Impact World Tour&quot; is just one big cultral/ Heathen festival with a hint of &quot;Christ&quot;; I am angry that there are so many labourers asleep, when the harvest is soooo ripe; I am angry at the apathy found within Christianity; I am angry that the Word of God is not longer taught in our schools and class rooms; I am angry that Evolution has become a viable substitue for Creation; I am angry that Womens rights in the Middle East Muslim Countries is over look by govenments and most Christian orgainisations; I am angry that the Australian Public has been &quot;dis-armed&quot; under the guise of &quot;Security&quot;;...do you get the point?? See, Passivisim hasn't got us too far. To sit and say nothing, is to let death reign. So I won't be silent. I won't back down. I won't let them tell me &quot;your a legalist&quot;, &quot;Your under bondage&quot;, &quot;your an extreemist&quot;. I will speak while I can.Please don't get all defecive on me. Yes...I am young, and most likely nieve, and one day I may well eat these words, but for now, this is where I stand.So, I spose many would think that to be this angry would also lead to bitterness. Well not to me is hasn't. I cried last night during our Sabbath Worship. I laughed yesterday afternoon when I was playing with my puppy. I still get all gooy inside when I think that Mums about to have another baby. I still stop to smell the roses.I'm not sure how to say it, but we must be carefull not to be Passive. Its time someone started laying out the hard lines. I'm sick of seeing the innocent, the fatherless, the widows and the poor get hurt. And if the least I can do is speak out. Than I will do it with all I've got.I hope I haven't come across as forward. As I younger member of this modest gathering, I will not be upset at the rebuttal of the elders. If I have said anything out of place, please do let me know.Shabbat Shalom to All!!!Matt James
Matty :hug: You are such a treasure and from what I can see must make both your parents mighty proud! Many tell us that anger is a sin, but I don't agree. We are told to be angry, yet sin not. See that anger I see is zealousness for the L-RD for his word and those that come against it, but mostly we can be angry for those who are oppressed and mostly what you mentioned falls into that catagory. The widows, the orphans etc, these are the oppressed and we are admonished ( yes, mostly in the OT ) to take care of them and others who need it, but that is hardly happening in todays 'Me,Me,Me ,Me" society. Lately I have seen a spirit that had dominated lives in people since childhood, going back 40, 50, 60 years, I call this spirit the "poor me". The one that thinks no matter what they don't get enough attention, material things, notoriety, etc. And This same spirit I think hangs out with the 'Me, Me , Me , Me' one. Yes, Matty, be angry, yet do not sin, stand up for the underdog, the oppressed, the needy, because that is the way of our G-d. HE tells us, the Meek shall inherit the earth, and those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, they shall be filled. I long for that day when I can say, Praise G-d I am FULL! :clap:

[Victrixa]

Excellent post MattyJames!

That is righteous anger, I agree with that.

[MattyJames]

Many thanks to all for the show of approval. Sometimes one thinks that he is the only one seeing all the obvious flaws in todays society, not to mention "Christendom".I am always heartened when like minded breathern share my otherwise 'abnormal' passions.Many kind regards to all.Matt James

[stone]

definately not abnormal passions. :thumbsup:

[MattyJames]

definately not abnormal passions. :thumbsup:

Depends on which side of the fence one is sitting. :)

many thanks Stone.

Matt James

[Tishri1]

Matty you should do all you can to confront all those issues you have layed out, I believe ABBA has young men out there for just a service:hug:Well, In light of the thread, I'm a newbie! I can definately see how you have all progressed. It can only point to better days ahead, as we grow in wisdom and maturaty of Faith. Ahhh yes this is a topic that is often brought up to me by other "Christians". I am "too judgemental." The chorus of voices can be overwhelming at times, but it can never kill the spirit.From a peronal point, what have I learned since comming into contact with this view of Passivisim?? Well let me put it this way. Between last Shabbat and today, there has been 2000 unborn babies murdered under the guise of "Free choice" upon the alter of "Sexual Liberisim." That makes me angry, very angry.But wait, I am angry at the fact that Australia has the second largerst Gay and Lesbian Marti-gra in the world (Second to Rio herself.); I am angry that the Anglican "Church" has further debased the "faith" by allowing Homosexual Ordination; I am angry that supposed "Children of Abraham" (Christians),deny the Jews the right the right of self defence; I am angry that the modern "Church" calls good, evil and evil, good; I am angry that a so called "Evangalisim Orginisation" call "Impact World Tour" is just one big cultral/ Heathen festival with a hint of "Christ"; I am angry that there are so many labourers asleep, when the harvest is soooo ripe; I am angry at the apathy found within Christianity; I am angry that the Word of God is not longer taught in our schools and class rooms; I am angry that Evolution has become a viable substitue for Creation; I am angry that Womens rights in the Middle East Muslim Countries is over look by govenments and most Christian orgainisations; I am angry that the Australian Public has been "dis-armed" under the guise of "Security";...do you get the point?? See, Passivisim hasn't got us too far. To sit and say nothing, is to let death reign. So I won't be silent. I won't back down. I won't let them tell me "your a legalist", "Your under bondage", "your an extreemist". I will speak while I can.Please don't get all defecive on me. Yes...I am young, and most likely nieve, and one day I may well eat these words, but for now, this is where I stand.So, I spose many would think that to be this angry would also lead to bitterness. Well not to me is hasn't. I cried last night during our Sabbath Worship. I laughed yesterday afternoon when I was playing with my puppy. I still get all gooy inside when I think that Mums about to have another baby. I still stop to smell the roses.I'm not sure how to say it, but we must be carefull not to be Passive. Its time someone started laying out the hard lines. I'm sick of seeing the innocent, the fatherless, the widows and the poor get hurt. And if the least I can do is speak out. Than I will do it with all I've got.I hope I haven't come across as forward. As I younger member of this modest gathering, I will not be upset at the rebuttal of the elders. If I have said anything out of place, please do let me know.Shabbat Shalom to All!!!Matt James