Sanhedrin Moves to Establish Council For Noahides

[insaneinthebrain]

A council of non-Jewish observers of the Seven Laws of Noah has been selected and will be ordained by the reestablished Sanhedrin in Jerusalem this January.
http://israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=90646

Ordinarily, I wouldn't be concerned either way about something like this. However, the following quote bugs me:
A third goal of the creation of the High Council and the Sanhedrin's efforts in regard to the Noahide community, is to "transform the Noahide movement from a religious phenomenon - a curiosity many have not heard of - into a powerful international movement that can successfully compete with, and with G-d's help bring about the fall of, any religious movement but the pure authentic faith that was given to humanity through Noach, the father of us all," said emissary Bar-Ron.

[Sephania]

The title of the thread scared me before I even read this. I tried to warn others of this months ago and my thread was deleted as anti-Jewish.

I bet I know one member of this, Dr. Jones perhaps??? Indy??? ;)

[BarbB]

:eek: Won't this cause great(er) deception? :cry:

[Tishri1]

A council of non-Jewish observers of the Seven Laws of Noah has been selected and will be ordained by the reestablished Sanhedrin in Jerusalem this January.
http://israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=90646

Ordinarily, I wouldn't be concerned either way about something like this. However, the following quote bugs me:but will they eliminate all the fences that say you may not believe in Yeshua and be a part of us...even the first century believers were given that right...to choose to believe in Yeshua as Messiah...sounds scary to me....I can only pray....:pray:

[Tishri1]

oh yeh and they also seemed to insist that the gentiles break certain commands because those were only for the Jews....unless I misunderstood the whole thing:eek:

[debi b]

transform the Noahide movement

This will be used to do what???

[plum]

:sigh:

[Vaneeza Malkah]

Speaking out against Noachide is not anti-Jewish. Noachide is anti-TaNaKh and Brit Chadashah. Sha'ul's dream concerning accepting the Torah-observant gentiles is a perfect example of this.

[Bananna]

So what is the problem? Let God be Judge, we follow what he tells us and we don't all agree.

Yah it is irritating to be told not to keep the Sabbath. But I understand they genuinely believe they do well.

[BnaiNoach]

[I]A council of non-Jewish observers of the Seven Laws of Noah has been selected and will be ordained by the reestablished Sanhedrin in Jerusalem this January.

It's about time.

[Tishri1]

Speaking out against Noachide is not anti-Jewish. Noachide is anti-TaNaKh and Brit Chadashah. Sha'ul's dream concerning accepting the Torah-observant gentiles is a perfect example of this.so what do you know about them? I get a weird feeling about them due to some time I spent on line reading (and alittle talking) their posts...I would like to know more

[Vaneeza Malkah]

so what do you know about them? I get a weird feeling about them due to some time I spent on line reading (and alittle talking) their posts...I would like to know more

Sorry I meant Kefa earlier (Peter not Paul) :blush:

It's the reason Cornelious a Torah-Observant gentile was not being accepted by the Jews of the time. If you are a non-jew and you follow the 7 laws of Noach, you can "attain salvation" by keeping the 7 commands according to the talmud.

This is about Kosher but I'm posting it because it's the real reason for Kefa's dream.

In summary, nowhere in the Torah or the Apostolic Writings does (Hashem) indicate that unclean animals are now to be considered clean. (Hashem) was showing Kefa that He does make a distinction between that which is clean and unclean and that a Gentile is considered clean through turning to (Hashem) and His commandments, as had Cornelius. The Jewish religious leadership considered Gentiles to be unclean, and rightly so. For the most part, Gentiles were pagans, idolaters and ritually impure. However, there were many like Cornelius, Torah observant Gentiles who loved the God of Israel. They were trusting in the promises of (Hashem) and waiting, with many in Israel, for Him to send the Redeemer.

Yeshua made it clear in His teaching that keeping the Torah is very important. In Mattityahu (Matthew) 5:19 Yeshua says, "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven." The passage in Acts about Kefa's vision, indicates that even after Yeshua's death, burial and resurrection, keeping the Torah is an expectation that (Hashem) has for those who would follow Him. Kefa's vision is sandwiched in between Cornelius' vision and Kefa's meeting with representatives sent on behalf of Cornelius, a ger toshav, who is to be treated as a native Israelite. (Hashem) has always made provision for Gentiles who choose to follow His Torah — they have an inheritance with Israel, as is stated in Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 56:17.

[Bruce101]

Basicly, Jews have 613 Mitzvohs while the rest of humanity has seven. The Jews are judged on a higher scale than the gentiles. The problem is that to believe in Jesus, according to Rabbinical Judaism, you have committed idolatry, a capitol offence (death penalty) and so...if the Sanhedrin actually attains some form of official recognition, and somehow ends up as a power of government, it would be off with our heads!
Bruce

[Steve Petersen]

Basicly, Jews have 613 Mitzvohs while the rest of humanity has seven. The Jews are judged on a higher scale than the gentiles. The problem is that to believe in Jesus, according to Rabbinical Judaism, you have committed idolatry, a capitol offence (death penalty) and so...if the Sanhedrin actually attains some form of official recognition, and somehow ends up as a power of government, it would be off with our heads!
Bruce

So, are you suggesting that this is a fulfillment of prophecy? Antichrist will be one who enforces Noachide law to eliminate Christians?

[Bruce101]

So, are you suggesting that this is a fulfillment of prophecy? Antichrist will be one who enforces Noachide law to eliminate Christians?

To be honest with you, I really don't know.
When it comes to what fulfills and what does not in prophecy, I am leery.
I really don't think that it will get that far.
But, who knows?

My Rabbinical friends think that it is good, and my Noachide friends think that it is good.
Anybody coming after my head is not likely to find a willing sheep going to the slaughter.
Bruce

[Tea]

I have a couple of questions in regards to this that I am unsure of. Do the Noachides keep Torah and the Sabbath, or do they observe only the seven that were written in the article, and where are they found in Scripture? If they are not a "Jewish" organisation/people, why are they seeking "recognition" from the Sanhedrins, and why are the Sanhedrins willing/complying to give this recognition? What is the purpose of all this?
Thankyou
Shalom
Tea

[DrMcDonald]

I gleened this from the Wikipedia:

The seven laws are:
Shefichat damim - Do not murder.
Gezel - Do not steal/kidnap.
Avodah zarah - Do not worship false gods/idols.
Gilui arayot - Do not be sexually immoral (forbidden sexual acts are traditionally interpreted to include incest, sodomy, male homosexual sex acts and adultery)
Birkat Hashem - Do not blaspheme.
Dinim - Set up righteous and honest courts and apply fair justice in judging offenders and uphold the principles of the last five.
Ever min ha-chai - Do not eat anything of the body of an unslaughtered animal (given to Noah)

The Talmud also states: "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a). Any person who lives according to these laws is known as "the righteous among the gentiles". Maimonides states that this refers to those who have acquired knowledge of God and act in accordance with the Noahide laws.
------------------------------------------
QUOTE From aish.com
The 7 Noachide Laws

The Jewish idea is that the Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. The Torah (as explained in the Talmud - Sanhedrin 58b) presents seven mitzvot for non-Jews to observe. These seven laws are the pillars of human civilization, and are named the "Seven Laws of Noah," since all humans are descended from Noah. They are:

Do not murder.
Do not steal.
Do not worship false gods.
Do not be sexually immoral.
Do not eat the limb of an animal before it is killed.
Do not curse God.
Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.

Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these laws earns a proper place in heaven. So you see, the Torah is for all humanity, no conversion necessary.
-----------------------------------
Specific References

These categories are felt to be implicit in G-d's commandment to Adam and Eve in Genesis (Bereshis) 2:16-17:

The following verse is a reference to the prohibition against murder. G-d explicitly commands Noah (Genesis 9:6), "If one sheds the blood of the man (HaAdam), by man shall his own blood be shed."

The following is an implicit reference to the prohibition against theft. It shows that permission is needed to take something that is not explicitly yours. "You shall not steal; you shall not deal deceitfully or falsely with one another" (Leviticus 19:11).

The below verse refers to sexual misconduct or adultery, as the prophet Jeremiah (3:1) says, "Saying (laymor), if a man divorces his wife..."

The following verse implies that there are things which may not be eaten (the limbs of a live animal): "You must not, however, eat flesh with its life- blood in it." (Genesis 9:4)

The following verse is a reference to the prohibition against idolatry; for it says in Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods before me."

The following verse implies the prohibition against blasphemy. As it says in Leviticus 24:16, "He who blasphemes the name of the L-rd (Hashem) shall die."

What follows is a reference to laws of justice for it says in Genesis 18:19, "For I have known him so he will command (Yitzaveh) his children after him to keep the way of the Lord and righteousness and justice."

I hope this helps. as far as the what question

Now for the Sanhedrin;

This was from the original post on the article. And the cause for some concern among Messianics and Christians
QUOTE:
"A third goal of the creation of the High Council and the Sanhedrin's
efforts in regard to the Noahide community, is to "transform the
Noahide movement from a religious phenomenon - a curiosity many have
not heard of - into a powerful international movement that can
successfully compete with, and with G-d's help bring about the fall of,
any religious movement but the pure authentic faith that was given to
humanity through Noach, the father of us all," said emissary Bar-Ron."

I hope that helped.

Mac

[Bruce101]

From what my friends ( Orthodox Jews) tell me.
The Torah is for Jews only, that is the strict keeping of Torah. Keep in mind that they give as much credibility and authority to the Written (Books of Moses) as well as the Oral
(Talmud). For me, a gentile, to strictly observe Sabbath is a sin. The seven laws are basic and apply to mankind. It is not a matter of whether you choose to obey or not. You will be judges as a Noachide because that is what you are. And a Jew will be judged as a Jew (613) because he is a Jew, whether he lives Judaism or not.
You will not find this "doctrine" in the Bible in a coherent way. A verse here, a verse there is how it is put together.
The anchor verses being
Ge 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
8 ¶ And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

All people are Noah's seed.



There is a Bible verse that says that the righteous among the nations have a place in the world to come.

I believe that this theology was developed in response to the School of Hillel winning the generations long debate with the School of Shammai.
Shammai held the belief that all gentiles were as dogs and had no place in the world to come and as such were not worthy of human consideration.
Hillel believed that gentiles did have a place in the world to come and should be treated as such, humans with souls.
This was a raging debate at the time of Jesus.
Paul was of the School of Hillel, I believe that Gamaliel, Pauls teacher, was Hillel's son or grandson. Paul had no problem being the "apostle to the gentiles" because of how he was taught.
Anyway, with Hillel eventually winning out, a theology had to be developed that would include gentiles.
Most acknowledged Noahchides study and worship with the Orthodox Jews.
And they place themselves under the authority of the Jews, which I will not do.
I place myself under no religous authority but God.
Too many shenanigans on the part of those in control.

Bruce

[ShirChadash]

From what my friends ( Orthodox Jews) tell me.
The Torah is for Jews only, that is the strict keeping of Torah. Keep in mind that they give as much credibility and authority to the Written (Books of Moses) as well as the Oral
(Talmud). For me, a gentile, to strictly observe Sabbath is a sin.

Shalom Bruce.

I have been wondering this for a while and this seems a good place and time to ask, as you might know how to answer:

What do your Orthodox friends say about the verses in Isaiah which indicate that keeping Sabbath is -- even for the foreigner -- a blessing, bringing G-d's favor; specifically, I refer to:

Isaiah 56
1 Here is what ADONAI says: "Observe justice, do what is right, for my salvation is close to coming, my righteousness to being revealed." 2 Happy is the person who does this, anyone who grasps it firmly, who keeps Shabbat and does not profane it, and keeps himself from doing any evil.

3 A foreigner joining ADONAI should not say, "ADONAI will separate me from his people"; likewise the eunuch should not say, "I am only a dried-up tree." 4 For here is what ADONAI says: "As for the eunuchs who keep my Shabbats, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant: 5 in my house, within my walls, I will give them power and a name greater than sons and daughters; I will give him an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples." 8 Adonai ELOHIM says, he who gathers Isra'el's exiles: "There are yet others I will gather, besides those gathered already."



Is there any scripture verse in Torah, or TaNaKh, that explicity says Shabbat is only for Jews and that it is a sin for gentiles/foreigners who come to belief in HaShem to keep Sabbath as well? I note that verse 2, above, says "happy is the person", not specifically "Jew", and the verses thereafter clearly discuss foreigners/gentiles/those not of Isra'El.

I do not have a TaNaKh, so I am also wondering if the rendering of the Isaiah passage I cited is different between "Christianized" scripture versions and the TaNaKh.

Also (ETA) -- what about the fact that Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals and clearly adhered to eating only clean, since G-d instructed him to bring 7 of each clean animal and only 2 of the unclean (which wouldn't be eaten)? And also, Noah sacrificed. So how is it that these things are also not allowed or commanded for gentiles under the Noachide laws, but supposedly gentiles are to do what Noah did because he is the father of us all.

Thanks for any insights!

[Bruce101]

Shalom Bruce.

I have been wondering this for a while and this seems a good place and time to ask, as you might know how to answer:

What do your Orthodox friends say about the verses in Isaiah which indicate that keeping Sabbath is -- even for the foreigner -- a blessing, bringing G-d's favor; specifically, I refer to:

Isaiah 56
1 Here is what ADONAI says: "Observe justice, do what is right, for my salvation is close to coming, my righteousness to being revealed." 2 Happy is the person who does this, anyone who grasps it firmly, who keeps Shabbat and does not profane it, and keeps himself from doing any evil.

3 A foreigner joining ADONAI should not say, "ADONAI will separate me from his people"; likewise the eunuch should not say, "I am only a dried-up tree." 4 For here is what ADONAI says: "As for the eunuchs who keep my Shabbats, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant: 5 in my house, within my walls, I will give them power and a name greater than sons and daughters; I will give him an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples." 8 Adonai ELOHIM says, he who gathers Isra'el's exiles: "There are yet others I will gather, besides those gathered already."



Is there any scripture verse in Torah, or TaNaKh, that explicity says Shabbat is only for Jews and that it is a sin for gentiles/foreigners who come to belief in HaShem to keep Sabbath as well? I note that verse 2, above, says "happy is the person", not specifically "Jew", and the verses thereafter clearly discuss foreigners/gentiles/those not of Isra'El.

I do not have a TaNaKh, so I am also wondering if the rendering of the Isaiah passage I cited is different between "Christianized" scripture versions and the TaNaKh.

Also (ETA) -- what about the fact that Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals and clearly adhered to eating only clean, since G-d instructed him to bring 7 of each clean animal and only 2 of the unclean (which wouldn't be eaten)? And also, Noah sacrificed. So how is it that these things are also not allowed or commanded for gentiles under the Noachide laws, but supposedly gentiles are to do what Noah did because he is the father of us all.

Thanks for any insights!

I can answer part of your question, and I will have to ask about the other part that was asked about Noah.

They would say that Isaiah was written to Israel, so a person reading this would be Jewish, and a foriegner who joins himself to HaShem would be a gentile that has converted fully to Judaism.
However, I will still ask the question, and get back to ya as soon as I get my answer.

Bruce

[Critias]

For me, a gentile, to strictly observe Sabbath is a sin.

Can you expound on this more? I am trying to learn the Jewish ways, culture, history, rituals, ceremonies, etc so that I can better understand the Bible.

I am curious to what you mean by this.

[Tea]

Thankyou Bruce for you reply. That give me a little more background on the matter.
Shalom
Tea

[HaNotsri]

Bruce101's assertion is correct.

Traditionally in Judaism when the text refers to a stranger or a sojourner or an alien it is referring to a ger tsedek or a righteous proselyte, one who is fully converted to Judaism according to halacha. There are two terms in Tan"kh that refer to a stranger, the first being a ger and the second being nechar (which is used in the Isaiah text above). You don't ever hear the term nechar used when one speaks of a Jew that is an Orthodox convert to Judaism, you'll hear the term ger. In any event, no matter which word it uses it almost always means a convert to Judaism.
In the Torah she'biktav (the written Torah, the first five books of Moses), the term ger is actually used in two different contexts. Because it mentions one ger who must follow all the laws of Israel (i.e. one law for the Jew and the sojourner [ger] among them), but later it talks about giving certain food that Jew cannot eat to the stranger (ger) among them. Obviously, God's word cannot contradict itself.
In Judaism, there are two types of gerim. There is the ger tsedek, which was a gentile who converted to Judaism according to halacha and is a full-fledged Jew in every sense of the word. There is also the ger toshav, which is a "stranger in the gates." This type of ger is a gentile who has NOT converted to Judaism (and is therefore not obligated to keep the Torah), but wishes to live in the Land of Israel. In order for a gentile to do that they needed to live by the sheva mitsvos shel b'nei Noach (the seven commandments of the sons of Noach) as was mentioned earlier in the thread. According to Judaism, following those commandments (which actually encompass around 66 mitsvos of the 613 mitsvos in the Torah) will merit a gentile righteousness for the World-to-Come
Now on to the issue of whether or not a gentile should keep the mitsvos of the Torah as given to the Jews. Traditionally in Judaism, the Torah was given to the People of Israel. God the Father had offered it to each of the seventy nations, but they rejected the Torah and it was only Israel who accepted it. The 613 mitsvos are a covenant between God and Israel and the keeping/guarding of the Sabbath (shomer Shabbos) is a sign of that covenant between God and Israel. Gentiles are not obligated to keep that same covenant as they are bound by the Noachidic covenant mentioned above and in fact are discouraged from keeping the mitsvos as Jews do.
How do I know this? Well, after I was saved and before I returned to Christ, I journeyed towards an Orthodox conversion to Judaism and almost completed it before coming back to Christ. I lived in an chassidische community and was converting through their beis din. Anyways, the rabbeim I was studying under made sure that while I was still a non-Jew I wasn't keeping the mitsvos (especially Shabbos) as a Jew was. For instance, on Shabbos I would have to violate one of the 39 melechos that one is forbidden to do on Shabbos (i.e. I'd have to flip on a light or rip a piece of paper). Often, I would be indirectly asked to do something that would violate one of those melachos just so they knew I was doing that. I wasn't yet converted, so I wasn't a Jew. If I would have completed the conversion process, I would have been considered a Jew as any other and no longer able to violate any of the 39. There were also some things you couldn't do on yom tov (lit. good day or the holidays)
In Judaism, a Jew is obligated to keep the 613 mitsvos of the Torah and the gentile is obligated to keep the seven mitsvos of Noach (which encompass 66 mitsvos of the Jews' 613). If a gentile is dedicated and has a true desire to join the Jewish people out of conviction and love of God, he may convert to Judaism (and become a full-fledged Jew) through Orthodox auspices. But he is then obligated to follow all 613 mitsvos as he is a Jew then. I hope that makes sense and helps you all out.

Peace in Christ,
Michael HaNotsri

Any further questions? Feel free to e-mail me at michael.stapleton@gmail.com

[Critias]

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for posting that. Does the same apply for one who converts to a Messianic Jew? (Keeping the 613 mistvos and the Sabbath (Shabbos?))

[Bruce101]

[/color]Can you expound on this more? I am trying to learn the Jewish ways, culture, history, rituals, ceremonies, etc so that I can better understand the Bible.

I am curious to what you mean by this.

I commend you on your efforts to understand the Bible.
However, this is more of a Rabbinical belief than it is Biblical, IMO.

I do not believe that it is wrong for me to observe Sabbath, the Orthodox Jews believe this.
But, to their credit, they don't have to worry about me trying to observe the better than 1,000 rules (so I have been told) that they have come up with for Sabbath observance.
I have looked at some of the rules.
I try to stay Biblical,( and I am not that good at it) not Rabbinical.

BTW, my Orthodox friends are humble about the Noachide thing. They don't feel that they are above anybody, only that God has put extra responsibility on them.

Bruce

[HaNotsri]

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for posting that. Does the same apply for one who converts to a Messianic Jew? (Keeping the 613 mistvos and the Sabbath (Shabbos?))[

Well, what I mentioned above is what traditional Orthodox Judaism says. As far as Messianic Judaism goes, at least in my studies, most Messianic organizations don't have gentiles "convert" to Messianic Judaism. Essentially Paul says that God made us who we are and we should stay as such...Gentiles are a part of the Messianic movement and for those Messianic congregations that claim to be Torah-observant, gentiles seem to have been allowed to be as Torah-observant as any Jew according to that congregation's or movement's standards. Messianic Judaism tends not to give any sort of Divine creedance to the tradition of Orthodox Judaism. They see it as man getting in the way of God's will by imposing to many chumeros (stringincies) on the Torah and because they (according to Messianic Judaism) worry more about the letter of the Torah and not the spirit. Messianic Judaism and Orthodox Judaism are at odds with each other and I am sort of caught in the middle as far as my beliefs go.

Michael

[Bruce101]

Well, what I mentioned above is what traditional Orthodox Judaism says. As far as Messianic Judaism goes, at least in my studies, most Messianic organizations don't have gentiles "convert" to Messianic Judaism. Essentially Paul says that God made us who we are and we should stay as such...Gentiles are a part of the Messianic movement and for those Messianic congregations that claim to be Torah-observant, gentiles seem to have been allowed to be as Torah-observant as any Jew according to that congregation's or movement's standards. Messianic Judaism tends not to give any sort of Divine creedance to the tradition of Orthodox Judaism. They see it as man getting in the way of God's will by imposing to many chumeros (stringincies) on the Torah and because they (according to Messianic Judaism) worry more about the letter of the Torah and not the spirit. Messianic Judaism and Orthodox Judaism are at odds with each other and I am sort of caught in the middle as far as my beliefs go.

Michael

Michael is correct.
Since there is no central authority in Messinic Judaism, no denomination, there is no hard fast rule about Torah observance.
Some try take on the full load as Orthodox Judaism, some go the complete opposite and accept what traditional Christianity teaches, that the Torah has been done away with. I believe in being Biblical in my Torah observance, even though I am still learning how to do so, and have family considerations.
I think my main problem with Orthodox Judaism, other than their denial of Jesus, is that that they set up fences to keep one fron sinning (which is a good thing) but they consider that if you cross that fence, you have sinned.
They have made up sins. IMO.
But traditional Christianity does the same thing so one is as bad as the other as far as I am concerned.
There is no conversion process to Messianic Judaism. Just believe in Jesus.
And then live out that belief.

David

[Bruce101]

Okay, this is the anser that I got back from one of my friends.
It pretty much says what I thought it would. I notice that he didn't mention Noah and the unclean/clean animals. I brought this to his attention and am now awaiting an answer.

Yeshayahu (Isaiah) is one of the Jewish nevi'im (prophets) speaking to Jews about Jewish affairs. Yeshayahu is not a navi (prophet) to the world, although the world has certainly tried to steal him for their own.
The "nochri" (non-Jew) in Verse 3 and others, is one who has converted to Judaism or intends to do so, to serve G-d through the Jewish covenant just as every other Jew is required. The eunich is brought in by G-d as a comparitive to the convert that has no children after he converts. In this way he is like the eunich. His children prior to his conversion are not considered because they were born as non-Jews.

However, there is a difference. The eunich feels like a second class citizen because he has no heirs to inherit from him, while we are told that the convert, even without children, is the same as every other Jew, with no lessening of status because he has no Jewish heirs.

"Is there any scripture verse in Torah, or TaNaKh, that explicity says Shabbat is only for Jews..."

You don't need it. All you need is an understanding of what G-d means when He makes a covenant. God made a covenant with the Jews, the details of which are the Torah, and a covenant with the Bnei Noach (Bereishis 9:8-9). It's like having one contract on a house and another contract on a car. They are not the same contract.

If that isn't enough, just look at the 1st of the 10 Commandments - "I am God, who took you out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." That is the Jews - No one else.

[Bruce101]

Shalom Bruce.

I have been wondering this for a while and this seems a good place and time to ask, as you might know how to answer:

What do your Orthodox friends say about the verses in Isaiah which indicate that keeping Sabbath is -- even for the foreigner -- a blessing, bringing G-d's favor; specifically, I refer to:

Isaiah 56
1 Here is what ADONAI says: "Observe justice, do what is right, for my salvation is close to coming, my righteousness to being revealed." 2 Happy is the person who does this, anyone who grasps it firmly, who keeps Shabbat and does not profane it, and keeps himself from doing any evil.

3 A foreigner joining ADONAI should not say, "ADONAI will separate me from his people"; likewise the eunuch should not say, "I am only a dried-up tree." 4 For here is what ADONAI says: "As for the eunuchs who keep my Shabbats, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant: 5 in my house, within my walls, I will give them power and a name greater than sons and daughters; I will give him an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples." 8 Adonai ELOHIM says, he who gathers Isra'el's exiles: "There are yet others I will gather, besides those gathered already."



Is there any scripture verse in Torah, or TaNaKh, that explicity says Shabbat is only for Jews and that it is a sin for gentiles/foreigners who come to belief in HaShem to keep Sabbath as well? I note that verse 2, above, says "happy is the person", not specifically "Jew", and the verses thereafter clearly discuss foreigners/gentiles/those not of Isra'El.

I do not have a TaNaKh, so I am also wondering if the rendering of the Isaiah passage I cited is different between "Christianized" scripture versions and the TaNaKh.

Also (ETA) -- what about the fact that Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals and clearly adhered to eating only clean, since G-d instructed him to bring 7 of each clean animal and only 2 of the unclean (which wouldn't be eaten)? And also, Noah sacrificed. So how is it that these things are also not allowed or commanded for gentiles under the Noachide laws, but supposedly gentiles are to do what Noah did because he is the father of us all.

Thanks for any insights!

I already answered part of this, now I have the answer from two friends regarding the Noah question.

Noah was not commanded to eat kosher food. He wasn't allowed to eat any meat until after the mabul. He knew the difference through the oral tradition handed down from Adam.
In Gemorah Sanhedrin 58b it says "a gentile who ceased working for an entire day is liable to death"
(my statement, hence the danger of the B'nai Noach, and Rabbinical some decrees)

And then my other friend, the Rabbi says,
Noach was a navi (prophet). The spiritual clean animals (whatever that means) had to be gathered in 14s, which the spiritual defiled animals (whatever that means) had to be gathered in 2s. Therefore God had to let Noach know, through nevua (prophesy) which were which. We are only talking about gathering here, not about eating. At this point people were not allowed to kill animals for food, any animals. Permission to kill animals for food came later.
To me, this makes more logical sense.

Bruce

[chokmah]

Speaking out against Noachide is not anti-Jewish. Noachide is anti-TaNaKh and Brit Chadashah. Sha'ul's dream concerning accepting the Torah-observant gentiles is a perfect example of this.
How is the Noachide movement anti-Tanakh?

[chokmah]

It's about time.
I second that emotion.

:clap:

[Sephania]

In Gemorah Sanhedrin 58b it says "a gentile who ceased working for an entire day is liable to death"


Under whose laws???

[Tishri1]

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for posting that. Does the same apply for one who converts to a Messianic Jew? (Keeping the 613 mistvos and the Sabbath (Shabbos?))We don't convert to Messianic Judiasm , or any "ism" for that matter... and that is why we are frequently frowned upon:sigh:.We are not converted to anything but Yeshua and the Torah that applies to us as believers today...and No one has to jump thru any hoops for Salvation to make us happy...And We follow the Instruction of Torah out of love , not to get our "ticket" "punched":clap:...Your probably feeling the same way right?

[DrMcDonald]

We don't convert to Messianic Judiasm , or any "ism" for that matter... and that is why we are frequently frowned upon:sigh:.We are not converted to anything but Yeshua and the Torah that applies to us as believers today...and No one has to jump thru any hoops for Salvation to make us happy...And We follow the Instruction of Torah out of love , not to get our "ticket" "punched":clap:...Your probably feeling the same way right?


Tishri1 Very well said. I would love to use that. ;)

Mac