"virgin" in Isaiah 7:14

[bethdinsmore]

Unger states that the word chosen for virgin there is correct, in that it only contains the idea of being continually chaste, without exception. Do you know where his info came from? What do Messianic Jews think about the use of virgin in that verse?

And where does the idea come from that some prophecies have a near and far fulfillment?

And was the only near fulfillment Isaiah's daughter? Wasn't there a near fulfillment where a virgin was involved?

And I had one person tell me that the Jewish Bible (English obviously) uses the word maiden in that verse. Is that true, and if so, which translation, and why? Is there a version the Messianic Jews agree with that uses the word "virgin"?

Thanks so much.
Aloha in Jesus

[DrMcDonald]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what Messianic Jews are - I though they were ones who believed Jesus is the Messiah. Am I wrong? If so, what is that group called?

Yes bethdinsmore We do believe in Yeshua HaMoshiach, Binyamin does not speak for us only himself.

Do not let him shake your faith in Moshiach.

[bethdinsmore]

Yes bethdinsmore We do believe in Yeshua HaMoshiach, Binyamin does not speak for us only himself.

Do not let him shake your faith in Moshiach.

Thank you, friend. Yes, I am not shaken. And if you or other Messianic Jews have any input on my original post, I would like to hear it.
Aloha

[Sephania]

Are you speaking of almah?

[bethdinsmore]

Yes, I am.

[Talmidah]

And I had one person tell me that the Jewish Bible (English obviously) uses the word maiden in that verse. Is that true, and if so, which translation, and why?

I'm not getting into the main discussion you brought up (not the correct forum for me), but just wanted to bring up that some Christian bibles also use "maiden" or "young woman" in the verse.

Isaiah 7:14 in a few Christian translations (spanish translations mine):


New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.

Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.

Good News Translation (GNT)
Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him "Immanuel.'

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Therefore Adonai himself will give you people a sign: the young woman will become pregnant, bear a son and name him 'Immanu El [God is with us].

Hebrew Names Version (HNV)
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, an almah shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu'el.

The Bible in Basic English (BBE)
For this cause the Lord himself will give you a sign; a young woman is now with child, and she will give birth to a son, and she will give him the name Immanuel.

Nueva Version Internacional (NVI)
Por eso, el Señor mismo les dará una señal: La joven concebirá y dará a luz un hijo, y lo llamará Emanuel. (joven means girl or young lady)

Reina-Valera 1995
Por tanto, el Señor mismo os dará señal:
La virgen[a] concebirá
y dará a luz un hijo,
y le pondrá por nombre Emanuel. (In the footnotes: La virgen: El texto hebreo emplea aquí la palabra alma, que en otros contextos se ha traducido por muchacha o joven (cf. Gn 24.43; Ex 2.8; Sal 68.25; Cnt 6.8 ). Ese término designa a una muchacha joven, en edad de contraer matrimonio o incluso casada. ) Translation: The virgin: The Hebrew text used here is the word "alma", which in other contexts is translated as girl or young lady(cf. Gn 24.43; Ex 2.8; Sal 68.25; Cnt 6.8 ). The term refers to a young lady, of marriageable age, including one already married.

[bethdinsmore]

I noticed you mentioned the Complete Jewish Bible. Is that the one Messianic Jews usually use?

[Talmidah]

I noticed you mentioned the Complete Jewish Bible. Is that the one Messianic Jews usually use?

Many do, yes.

[DrMcDonald]

That is a good one, I also use the Orthodox Jewish Bible published by AFI.

Blessings
Mac

[Bon]

This article is an interesting perspective on the 'virgin' controversy.

http://www.studytoanswer.net/doctrine/almah.html

My Hebrew scriptures render the english translation of
Isaiah 7:14
Behold, the young woman IS with child, and she will bear a son, and shall call his name "Immanue-el"

I am not sure of the actual original transaltion "tense"...but my Hebrew bible translation is in the present tense....

The YOUNG WOMAN could no longer be a virgin, now that she IS with child.

I'd hazard a guess that Isaiah 7:14 is alluding to a virgin....after all he is the Messianic prophet....;)

Bon

[bethdinsmore]

thanks for the website article. It is most enlightening and helpful - apparently Unger (my OP) and the writer would agree.

I wonder why the tense is different in some versions (shall conceive) than in your Hebrew Bible. Strong's 2030 haaraah

[shmuel]

I wonder why the tense is different in some versions (shall conceive) than in your Hebrew Bible. Strong's 2030 haaraah

There is much debate about the verbal system of Biblical Hebrew, but most scholars would agree that there were not tenses in Biblical Hebrew like there are in Indo-European languages. For reference, modern Israeli Hebrew does have tenses. It uses the perfect for past tense, the imperfect for future, and the participle for present.

The word "harah" in Is 7:14 is an adjective (pregenant). The 3fs perfect verb from the same root is "haretah". The clause in Hebrew has no verb, just the adjective "harah" and the participle "yoledet" (giving birth, bringing forth), which is functioning as an adjective. The word for word translation of the clause is "behold the young woman pregnant and bringing forth son".

S

[bethdinsmore]

I see your point. Does your version not have haaraah?

Do I have your permission to show your statement (#13) to a friend of mine who occasionally teaches Hebrew? Never having studied it, I'm getting in a bit over my head. (Well, maybe more than a bit.) ;) Thanks, I will wait to hear from you.

Monitors, as I understand it, I can do this if I have his permission. Please let me know if I am wrong.

Aloha in Jesus

[Israeli]

Shalom,

The Jewish Rabbis say that the word ALMA in the Hebrew does not mean "virgin", it simply means a young maiden.

However in their own Talmud, they translated the word as "virgin" 7 times!

It seems as though there is some bias somewhere.


Israel.

[shmuel]

If the question was addressed to me:

The word "harah" occurs in the Masoretic text (I believe my copy is based on the Leningrad codex). The word is spelled he-resh-he with both vowels being qamats. Harah is a fs adjective. Harah as a verb is masculine, and thus would not agree with`almah in gender.

S

[bethdinsmore]

Thanks for the additional info, friends. Since some of it is over my head, I have asked my scholar friend to come in and take a look and explain your comments on the Hebrew to me. (I wish I had majored in Hebrew rather than Spanish.) ;)

[HaNotsri]

Israeli,

You can't make such an assertion as the Talmud is:

A. Written in Aramaic
B. Translated in English by only three groups (as far as I know): Artscroll/Mesorah, Soncino, and Adin Steinsaltz

Where do you get your information from? Jewish men don't "translate" anything when they're learning Torah. They read it from the original-language text.

Almah means a "young woman," though I did hear once it could mean "virgin" as well or it implies virginity. However, the strict Hebrew word for "virgin" is betulah, so I wonder why the author didn't use that word.

I am not questioning Matthew's interpretation of the word here, please don't think that.

Peace in Christ,
Michael HaNotsri

[chokmah]

Shalom,

The Jewish Rabbis say that the word ALMA in the Hebrew does not mean "virgin", it simply means a young maiden.

However in their own Talmud, they translated the word as "virgin" 7 times!

It seems as though there is some bias somewhere.


Israel.

Hmmm...

[chokmah]

Israeli,

You can't make such an assertion as the Talmud is:

A. Written in Aramaic
B. Translated in English by only three groups (as far as I know): Artscroll/Mesorah, Soncino, and Adin Steinsaltz

Where do you get your information from? Jewish men don't "translate" anything when they're learning Torah. They read it from the original-language text.

Almah means a "young woman," though I did hear once it could mean "virgin" as well or it implies virginity. However, the strict Hebrew word for "virgin" is betulah, so I wonder why the author didn't use that word.

Good post.

I am not questioning Matthew's interpretation of the word here, please don't think that.

Peace in Christ,
Michael HaNotsri

Ahhhh.... come on, why not? :)

[bethdinsmore]

Israeli,

...Almah means a "young woman," though I did hear once it could mean "virgin" as well or it implies virginity. However, the strict Hebrew word for "virgin" is betulah, so I wonder why the author didn't use that word.
....Michael HaNotsri

I believe the website given in post #10 answers that beautifully if you or anyone is interested in reading it (20 pages long) - it basically agrees with Unger's summary that almah is a young woman who has always been chaste, while bethullah is a young woman who is very probably chaste, but not necessarily. In the website, it shows how bethullah is a young woman who lives in her parent's house, and is a sociological term. The young woman would have been guarded, and therefore would most likely have been chaste. Many verses are given for these conclusions. With lengthy bibliography.

Aloha in Jesus

[talmidim]

I like my interpretations with confirmations. Most people do. A couple of millenium ago their were at least two writers of inspired text that wrote the contested word from the passage in Isaiah as "virgin". One was in a paraphrase of the passage; one was in an account of it's fulfillment.
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanu'el, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Luk 1:26 Now in the sixth month, the angel Gavri'el was sent from God to a city of the Galil, named Natzeret,
Luk 1:27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man whose name was Yosef, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Miriam.
Luk 1:28 Having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, you highly favored one! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women!"
Luk 1:29 But when she saw him, she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered what kind of salutation this might be.
Luk 1:30 The angel said to her, "Don't be afraid, Miriam, for you have found favor with God.
Luk 1:31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and will call his name 'Yeshua.'

In both cases they used a word translated as virgin.

Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
G3933 παρθένος parthenos par-then'-os Of unknown origin; a maiden; by implication an unmarried daughter: - virgin.

So, there were writers that chose that translation when writing to a VERY critical audience a couple of thousand years ago. Their intended audience, culturally speaking, had basically one book that they read from every week - the Tanakh. This controversy (if you can call it that) did not come to pass until much later on, after a well orchestrated campaign against the believers in Yeshua had been put into effect. This lack of a public outcry early on speaks volumes to me.

[bethdinsmore]

good point about the original hearers, talmidim.

[talmidim]

good point about the original hearers, talmidim.Thank you. Funny how that works, huh?

[Vaneeza Malkah]

good post talmidim. I personally think Miriam/Maryam/Mary was a virgin and young but that's just my speculation (the young part).

[Israeli]

Shalom Talmidim,

Thanks for pointing out the obvious because unfortunately people often miss the obvious.

Israeli

[Bruce101]

Shalom,

The Jewish Rabbis say that the word ALMA in the Hebrew does not mean "virgin", it simply means a young maiden.

However in their own Talmud, they translated the word as "virgin" 7 times!

It seems as though there is some bias somewhere.


Israel.

Oops!

Bruce

[chokmah]

I like my interpretations with confirmations. Most people do. A couple of millenium ago their were at least two writers of inspired text that wrote the contested word from the passage in Isaiah as "virgin". One was in a paraphrase of the passage; one was in an account of it's fulfillment.




In both cases they used a word translated as virgin.



So, there were writers that chose that translation when writing to a VERY critical audience a couple of thousand years ago. Their intended audience, culturally speaking, had basically one book that they read from every week - the Tanakh. This controversy (if you can call it that) did not come to pass until much later on, after a well orchestrated campaign against the believers in Yeshua had been put into effect. This lack of a public outcry early on speaks volumes to me.

The emboldened is predicated on the belief that the books are from the time of Jesus instead of much later, and that they were in circulation to quite an extent.

As is the case in the modern day, if someone thinks a book is fictitious; they don't give it a second thought instead of causing an uproar. That is just as much a valid consideration as the part you state above.

[Athanasian Creed]

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


The key to the verse, IMO, is the words "a sign". If the correct translation was that a "young woman" shall conceive, how would that be considered a "sign" (miraculous event) ?? That was the norm, young women had children, hardly miraculous. Therefore, the word, correctly translated "virgin" would constitute a miraculous event indeed. Only God's Spirit could bring about conception outside of the normal - therefore giving credence to the One born as being "Immanuel - God with us" !! :bow:


Ray :wave:

[Athanasian Creed]

The Lord himself; the word "himself" is emphatic; the Lord will do this without being asked, for his own glory.
Shall give you a sign; Ahaz had refused a sign addressed to sight. God now promises the people a sign addressed to faith; a sign therefore for the believing portion of the people.

A virgin shall conceive; compare Mt 1:23; Lu 1:34-35.

While God punishes the unbelief and rebellion of his people, he will, for his own glory, fulfil all his promises to Zion, the sum of which is Jesus Christ, born of a virgin for our redemption.

(Family Bible Notes Commentary)


Ray :wave:

[CovenantRay]

Shalom:

Out of curiosity, rather than to fuel the debate further, can anyone reference the Septuagent version of this verse and analyze the Greek forms used? If I recall, the Septuagent version was completed around 270 BCE. I do not have access to one.

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:

[talmidim]

Shalom:

Out of curiosity, rather than to fuel the debate further, can anyone reference the Septuagent version of this verse and analyze the Greek forms used? If I recall, the Septuagent version was completed around 270 BCE. I do not have access to one.

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:Here you go Ray,

This was retrieved at: http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=virgin&section=6&it=kjv&ot=lxx&nt=na&Enter=Perform+Search


Isa 7:14 (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=isa+7:14&it=kjv&ot=lxx&nt=na&sr=1) [ Greek Font Size: – (http://javascript<b></b>:isbTSmr('22714')) / + (http://javascript<b></b>:isbTBgr('22714')) ] [ View in: BHS (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=isa+7:14&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=0) ] Therefore the Lord (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0136) himself shall give (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=05414) (8799 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/extras.cgi?number=8799)) you a sign; (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0226) Behold, a virgin (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=05959) shall conceive, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=02030) and bear (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=03205) (8802 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/extras.cgi?number=8802)) a son, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01121) and shall call (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=07121) (8804 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/extras.cgi?number=8804)) his name (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=08034) Immanuel (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=06005) * (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0410). dia (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1223) touto (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3778) dwsei (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1325) kuriov (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2962) autov (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=846) umin (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4771) shmeion (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4592) idou (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2400) h (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588) parqenov (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3933) en (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1722) gastri (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1064) ecei (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1838) kai (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532) tecetai (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5088) uion (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5207) kai (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532) kaleseiv (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2564) to (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588) onoma (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3686) autou (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=846) EmmanouhlThen when you click on "virgin" you get this:
Strong's Number: 05959 hml(Original Word
Word Origin hml(
from (05958 (http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=005958))Transliterated Word
Phonetic Spelling `almah al-maw' http://www.studylight.org/images/audio.gif (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=5959h.rm) Parts of Speech
TWOT Noun Feminine 1630b Definition

virgin, young woman
of marriageable age
maid or newly married ++++ There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin.

Translated Words KJV (7) - damsels, 1; maid, 2; virgin, 4; NAS (7) - girl, 1; maid, 1; maiden, 1; maidens, 3; virgin, 1; BUT WHEN YOU CLICK ON parqeÑnov YOU GET THIS:

Strong's Number: 3933parqeÑnovOriginal WordWord Origin parqeÑnov of unknown originTransliterated WordPhonetic Spelling Parthenos par-then'-os http://www.studylight.org/images/audio.gif (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=3933g.rm) Parts of SpeechTDNT Noun Feminine 5:826,786 Definition

a virgin
a marriageable maiden
a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man
one's marriageable daughter

a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity


one who has never had intercourse with women

Translated Words KJV (14) - virgin, 14; NAS (15) - chaste, 1; virgin, 9; virgin's, 1; virgins, 4;Proving that the rabbis that were the original translators of the Septuagint, centuries before Yeshua, took this word in the Hebrew to mean "virgin".



The Rabbis that translated the Septuagint took the meaning as VIRGIN.
The Rabbis interpreted the word as meaning VIRGIN 7 times in the Talmud
Two different writers in the wildly popular Brit Chadashah (longest running best seller in the history of the world) interpreted the word to mean VIRGIN.
I think it is time for the nay-sayers to cite a case where this word WASN'T interpreted as VIRGIN in scripture.


It seems to me, (not pointing any fingers mind you) as though the only ones that do NOT interpret this scripture in this manner are the anti-missionaries of modern times. They seem to have a specific agenda outside the scope of scholarship that has colored their findings. I think that perhaps these sources have influenced the opinion of some of the well intentioned posters on this thread. I say this because the scriptural, historical and contextual evidence overwhelmingly supports the translation of this word as VIRGIN in this passage from all ancient sources.

[chokmah]

Love to be involved but:

I'm sorry, folks. I can only respond with questions and/or fellowship posts.

Feel free to bring these things up outside of CO

[CovenantRay]

Shalom:

Thank you Talmidim for the link and the analysis for this. My apologies to those without the messianic scroll for the inability to respond to this in this forum. Unfortunately, my strengths are not in analysis of Hebrew, Greek, nor Aramaic.

Talmidim makes a valid point: If the 70 (or so) Rabbis translated the Tenakh around 270 BCE and chose a word with that implication, isn't it clear that this was the Rabbinical thought nearly 3 centuries before the birth of Y'shua?

Just to be clear, there are more than 300 messianic prophecies in the Tenakh attributed to Y'shua, although some are rather technical, many are quite clear. My theology does not rest on the interpretation of this one word. Nor should yours.

I have not seen such furvor discussing the differences between the Ashkenazic Tenakh and the Sephardic Tenakh. Most notably the Ashkenazic Tenakh omits Isaiah 53. [rhetorical] Why would European Jews wish to leave THAT out? The Isaiah scrolls found with the Dead Sea Scrolls clearly include the "disputed" chapter of Isaiah.

If this interests you, seek it out for yourself.

Stepping off of my soapbox now.... Next?

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:

[Talmidah]

Most notably the Ashkenazic Tenakh omits Isaiah 53.

Hi CovenantRay,
Can you elaborate more on this? It something I've never heard before.

[CovenantRay]

Hi CovenantRay,
Can you elaborate more on this? It something I've never heard before.

Shabat Shalom:

The best I can do for right now is a link to a teaching, but I'll do my best to come up with some more formal references [It may take a little while]. I have requested a couple of my "sources" supply references if possible as well.

Here's what I have at this time:

Gospel in the Old Testament - Chuck Missler

http://server.firefighters.org/catalog/1998/00453.mp3

This is an MP3 file that is about 1 1/2 hours in length (windows media player will open on my system if I click on that link). The topic of the teaching is to explain the "Gospel" using only the Tenakh only, as was done in the book of Acts. It is a worthwhile "listen". I am fairly certain it is introduced in this teaching.

CovenantRay :prayer:

[HaNotsri]

LOL There is no difference between the Ashkenazic Tan"kh and the Sphardic Tan"kh. That's rediculous. I wonder how many people who actually make these audacious claims know anything about Judaism at all? Tan"kh is Tan"Kh and it doesn't change in Judaism. The same Tan"kh for Ashkenazim, Sphardim, Haredim, Chassidim, Mizrachim, etc, etc, etc.

The ultimate Truth is what's important and we know how Jesus was conceived, birthed, and died. There are arguments across the board of the meanings of these words and really I don't think it's that important because we're not going to agree. In its plain meaning almah does mean young woman, but it can imply virginity. But it doesn't mean virgin explicitly, that is besulah. If a young woman is raped, she is still an almah. If a young woman has sex outside of marriage, she is still an almah. You CANNOT be a besulah and be involved with those things in anyway. IF an old woman has never had sex in her entire life, she is a besulah...but she isn't an almah. There are differences in those terms. Isaiah 7:14 uses the word almah.

Talmidim,

Quit reading the internet and reading all the garbage you have about how rabbis interpret things. Rabbis don't translate things in the Talmud...they're not thinking as they learn and go back and forth how they would translate a word into English.

I agree that the term above was used and interpreted as Matthew suggests. But we have to admit that the Gospel writers were pushing an agenda when they wrote their accounts down. Matthew's purpose was to prove that Jesus was the Divine Messiah and so he is going to speak about His miraculous conception and birth. He interpreted that prophecy as referring to the Messiah as all of us Christians do. It still doesn't mean that's what the word explicitly means.

And consider the possibility that those soferim that wrote the Septuagint didn't have a better alternate word in Greek to translate almah. Maybe there isn't a Greek word that was comparable to almah and so parthenos (I think that's what they used as virgin) was used. I mean there are innumerable reasons (including that's how they interpreted the word almah as well, I am not denying that) as to why they chose the word.

Just my thoughts on the issue...

In Christ,

Michael

[BourbonFromHeaven]

LOL There is no difference between the Ashkenazic Tan"kh and the Sphardic Tan"kh. That's rediculous. I wonder how many people who actually make these audacious claims know anything about Judaism at all? Tan"kh is Tan"Kh and it doesn't change in Judaism. The same Tan"kh for Ashkenazim, Sphardim, Haredim, Chassidim, Mizrachim, etc, etc, etc.

Maybe he meant the HafTorah?

[bethdinsmore]

QUOTE FROM HANOTSRI: If a young woman is raped, she is still an almah. If a young woman has sex outside of marriage, she is still an almah. END QUOTE

Could you please tell us what verses you are referring to? Thanks.

[talmidim]

Shalom Michael, :wave:

Thank you for your considered reply. May you be blessed. I take your input on good faith as having been offered in love and receive it with gratitude. Understand though, there are certain things of which I remain unconvinced. I have no intention of addressing the issue of redacted scripture. That would probably be a fruitless endeavor. I would however, like to answer your other points if I may.

The ultimate Truth is what's important and we know how Jesus was conceived, birthed, and died. There are arguments across the board of the meanings of these words and really I don't think it's that important because we're not going to agree.I could not agree more that the ultimate truth is what is important. It may seem to you that hair splitting in this case is futile. Still I see another side to the issue. There is always a group of people that will attack a truth by chipping away at it's foundation in scripture. While this concession or that concession may seem unimportant in the overall scheme of things, they are important. To agree with an untruth by the sin of omission or laziness is to become untrue, albeit passively. It is best to settle the matter in question in a loving manner and with a steadfast eye toward His truth.

In its plain meaning almah does mean young woman, but it can imply virginity. But it doesn't mean virgin explicitly, that is besulah. If a young woman is raped, she is still an almah. If a young woman has sex outside of marriage, she is still an almah.Perhaps in the literal definition of the word, but certainly not in a cultural sense. Maidens found to have relations out of wedlock were villified and often stoned to death. Is this the context you see as applying to Isaiah 7:14?

You CANNOT be a besulah and be involved with those things in anyway. IF an old woman has never had sex in her entire life, she is a besulah...but she isn't an almah. There are differences in those terms. Isaiah 7:14 uses the word almah.Once again you are correct, but is this relevant? By applying the strictest literal definition without regard for context is to do yourself and others a disservice. I am familiar with these words and their literal and figurative definitions. What I find difficult to concede here is your strict adherence to the literal and your apparent disregard of the figurative. Those figurative definitions would not be included in the lexicon were it not for their popular usage. We must yield to context without departing from the plain meaning of the scripture.

Talmidim,

Quit reading the internet and reading all the garbage you have about how rabbis interpret things. Rabbis don't translate things in the Talmud...they're not thinking as they learn and go back and forth how they would translate a word into English.Correct again that they do not translate. The point is that they interpret (the term I used in my post) according to the rules of PaRDeS. I was simply pointing out that this verse has been subject to their scrutiny and midrash. Do you know in what context they interpreted that verse? I'd be interested to know. It is my understanding that the Rabbis did indeed consider the words of the prophet to mean a young virginal maiden. Please feel free to correct me with quotes from Talmud.

I agree that the term above was used and interpreted as Matthew suggests. But we have to admit that the Gospel writers were pushing an agenda when they wrote their accounts down. Matthew's purpose was to prove that Jesus was the Divine Messiah and so he is going to speak about His miraculous conception and birth. He interpreted that prophecy as referring to the Messiah as all of us Christians do. It still doesn't mean that's what the word explicitly means.So you don't believe Matthew was on the up and up? Maybe Luke took some liberties too? If that is your premise then we have nothing more to discuss. I don't know how you go about evaluating scripture. My outlook is that context is everything. When I state for all to hear that ,"You're killin' me", the gentle reader understands that I mean this in a figurative sense. http://www3.christianforums.com/images/mood/Happy.gifI hope you have the same discernment.

I am equally convinced that the Rabbis did not take every word by it's literal definition and that Matthew and Luke were true to their accounts of the Word and to the Spirit.

And consider the possibility that those soferim that wrote the Septuagint didn't have a better alternate word in Greek to translate almah. Maybe there isn't a Greek word that was comparable to almah and so parthenos (I think that's what they used as virgin) was used. I mean there are innumerable reasons (including that's how they interpreted the word almah as well, I am not denying that) as to why they chose the word.It has been my experience that a phrase is used when an accurate literal word is not available. When translating (or transliterating as in the case of the Septuagint) the literal always yeilds to the accurate. By my references, the accurate was an honored participant in the council of the soferim and no one has demonstrated otherwise. This being the case, your point about Matthew is moot in the face of the many confirmations to the contrary.

Just my thoughts on the issue...

In Christ,

Michael

These are my thoughts. Debate is healthy when done in love and in His Spirit. But even at the risk of a few ruffled feathers, His Truth is priceless and to be shared. It is my experience that the literal definition of a word is not necessarily the one intended. It is context that give us a glimpse at the intent of the author and it is the diligent student that is rewarded. I rely on the fact that the Word is inerrant in its original state. And where scripture has been eroded by the careless or faithless, the confirmations offered by the harmony of His Word will lead you back to His Truth. The confirmations from external sources are just gravy, and so far, there have been many.

b'Shalom v'Ahavah,

Phillip

[talmidim]

QUOTE FROM HANOTSRI: If a young woman is raped, she is still an almah. If a young woman has sex outside of marriage, she is still an almah. END QUOTE

Could you please tell us what verses you are referring to? Thanks.
Good point Ms. Dinsmore. I would like to see those verses too.

[talmidim]

Oh, c'mon you guys. I expected a little response from this one: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=19054488&postcount=39

*shameless bump*

[Bananna]

Yep,
Context defines the word.
context culturally, location in the verses surrounding, Pronounds, prepositions, Overal picture.

That is why when someone neglects their OT scripture studies they have such a hard time discerning context of the Newer Testaments. I see it all the time. They memorize a theology and forget what the scripture actually says.

Bananna

[simchat_torah]

I have not seen such furvor discussing the differences between the Ashkenazic Tenakh and the Sephardic Tenakh. Most notably the Ashkenazic Tenakh omits Isaiah 53.
Uhhhhhhhh .......... WHAT???????

:confused:

[DavidHaCohen]

Shalom all,
Once again, I'm not going to debate theology, since I'm a guest. However, I still don't understand why there is so much controversy over Isaiah 7:14. I mean, don't the fathers of Christianity say that Matthew was originally penned in Hebrew? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that means Greek Matthew is a translation, no? So at best we're looking at a mistranslation.

Anyways, I checked out the available Hebrew Matthew manuscripts which some claim to have not been translated from the Greek, and I found out that they all quoted Isaiah 7 accurately, using the word 'almah'.

I'm not messianic, but from my studies on religion, I realized that those anti-whatever groups (be it anti-christian, anti-jewish, anti-mormon, anti-....<fill in the gap with your religion of choice>) too often misrepresent the beliefs of the groups they're fighting, and don't mind slips such as this one as long as their goals of getting people out of such groups is achieved. I find that appalling.

We are all born free, thank G-d, to chose whatever religion we want. If we think one spiritual path is wrong, then let it be for fair-reasons, not made-up half-truth arguments. And yes, Rashi does give the impression he finds 'virgin' a suitable translation elsewhere in his commentaries.

Oy, I would be so in trouble with the rabbi from our shul if he saw that post. ;) But well, I don't believe in bashing other people's religious beliefs.

Dave

[DavidHaCohen]

An ashkenazi Tanach, now that's an interesting idea. It'd probably sound like this:

"Moishe, your brother Aharoin is building a golden calf for the people"
"Oy vey, shtimm zich! Has Aharoin gone meshigene? This shtark gehert! When I get down there, he's in serious shtuk" :D (sorry, couldn't resist)


Uhhhhhhhh .......... WHAT???????

:confused:

[Wags]

An ashkenazi Tanach, now that's an interesting idea. It'd probably sound like this:

"Moishe, your brother Aharoin is building a golden calf for the people"
"Oy vey, shtimm zich! Has Aharoin gone meshigene? This shtark gehert! When I get down there, he's in serious shtuk" :D (sorry, couldn't resist)

LOL! :D

Sounds like something out of the "Extremely Reform Haggadah".

[simchat_torah]

Anyways, I checked out the available Hebrew Matthew manuscripts....
Oh? Which one?

[talmidim]

An ashkenazi Tanach, now that's an interesting idea. It'd probably sound like this:

"Moishe, your brother Aharoin is building a golden calf for the people"
"Oy vey, shtimm zich! Has Aharoin gone meshigene? This shtark gehert! When I get down there, he's in serious shtuk" :D (sorry, couldn't resist)Priceless! Send me a copy. I don't want to have to wait for the movie! :thumbsup: I always thought Gene Wilder would have made a great Moishe. This script would be perfect! :clap:

[DavidHaCohen]

DuTillet and another one I can't remember the name. I was told there are others which have a similar reading. Unfortunately, I can't post links yet, looks like I don't have enough 'blessings' whatever they mean by that.

Oh? Which one?

[Tishri1]

good post talmidim. I personally think Miriam/Maryam/Mary was a virgin and young but that's just my speculation (the young part).Well Joseph didn't get her pregnant!^_^

Whether or not that prophesy is for a virgin to conceive or not...A VIRGIN DID CONCEIVE:clap:...In Retrospect I would conclude that that is what was suppose to happen in the first place and thus was the prophet trying to get the message out THAT WAY...I would think so...:idea:

[Tishri1]

Love to be involved but:

[/size][/font]exactly were do you all meet to converse? I am puzzeled as to where you all go to exersize (since your hands are tied in here) can you post a link inside of cf where we can find you the most?:wave:

[Tishri1]

Oy, I would be so in trouble with the rabbi from our shul if he saw that post. ;) But well, I don't believe in bashing other people's religious beliefs.

DaveI wont tell:thumbsup:

Dave you are a breath of fresh air and I think we are twins separated from birth...I ditto your comment!:wave:

[simchat_torah]

DuTillet and another one I can't remember the name. I was told there are others which have a similar reading. Unfortunately, I can't post links yet, looks like I don't have enough 'blessings' whatever they mean by that.
To my knowledge the DuTillet is not posted in Hebrew in full on the internet...

[iitb]

To my knowledge the DuTillet is not posted in Hebrew in full on the internet...
http://www.torahresource.com/DuTillet/ (good luck reading it ;))

[DavidHaCohen]

Yes, that's the link! Thank you!
Now, if only I could remember the other one, but I had too much Manischewitz at shul today. Maybe tomorrow when I'm feeling better. :blush:

http://www.torahresource.com/DuTillet/ (good luck reading it ;))

[DavidHaCohen]

I wouldn't be surprised. I'm the eldest of 7 siblings, two of which are twins. :cool:
Most of them are married and have children already. Now imagine what it's like at Pessach after the 4th cup. ^_^

I wont tell:thumbsup:

Dave you are a breath of fresh air and I think we are twins separated from birth...I ditto your comment!:wave:

[Tishri1]

Yeh and it sounds like you have had a joyful time today too hehehe^_^

[DavidHaCohen]

yeah but it ended in too much l'chayim :sorry::blush:

Yeh and it sounds like you have had a joyful time today too hehehe^_^

[bethdinsmore]

found another reference for Isaiah 7:14, in Jamison, Fawcett, and Brown (almost definitely misspelled) ;)

http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/Isa/Isa007.html

[simchat_torah]

http://www.torahresource.com/DuTillet/ (good luck reading it ;))
errr... wow. How long has that been up? Its actually not that hard to make out the text.

[simchat_torah]

I have not seen such furvor discussing the differences between the Ashkenazic Tenakh and the Sephardic Tenakh. Most notably the Ashkenazic Tenakh omits Isaiah 53.
I still want to know this reference....

[iitb]

errr... wow. How long has that been up? Its actually not that hard to make out the text.
I want to say it's only been there for a few months, though I may be wrong. Also, if you have $14 that you're just dying to spend, you can get a cd with pdf versions of both the DuTillet and Munster texts: http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID4776234P4494193-Books/DuTillet-Munster-Hebrew-Matthew-CD.aspx

[Tishri1]

yeah but it ended in too much l'chayim :sorry::blush:^_^^_^