Soul Sleep?

[savinggrc]

How many of you guys believe in this doctrine? And where do you see it in the Bible? :)

[Josephus]

I'm not sure what I believe in this. My most recent study has led me to believe we are truly with the Lord in spirit (as our spirits can not sleep but are eternal), and we wait to be reunited with our glorified bodies at the Last Day.

[drmmjr]

It's interesting that you have found our spirits to be eternal. Looking in the Old Testament, "spirit" is translated from two Hebrew words, neshamah and ruach. Neshamah is defined as "breath", and is called "breath" in eleven texts. The word ruach is defined as "wind". It is called "breath" 28 times, and "spirit" 232 times.

Ecclesiastes 12:7: "The dust shall return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it."

Also in the Old Testament, three Hebrew words, nedibah, nephesh, and neshamah, are translated "soul" in our English versions.

The word nedibah is found only one time, in Job 30:15. It is defined as: "willing, liberal, or noble one".

Nephesh occurs more than seven hundred times in the Old Testament. It is translated "soul" 428 times, "life" 119, "person" 30, "self" 19, "mind" 15, and some other words from one to nine times each. In all its uses, it refers to the individual with active life. Throughout the Bible, "soul" means "life", and in each place, if we were to call it life, we would have a clearer meaning of what the soul really is.

Neshamah is defined "breath", and eleven times it is called "breath". In other uses it is "blast", "inspiration", or "spirit".

Man himself is a soul: he became a living soul as soon as God breathed into his nostrils. Before Adam breathed, he was only a molded form of dust. (Genesis 2:7). The family of Jacob numbered seventy souls (Genesis 46:27).

It would seem that you are using spirit and soul interchangeably. "Spirit" is the ruach or air that man quits breathing at death, and which goes back to God who gave it. "Soul" is from nephesh, meaning "life". "Spirit" and "life" are not used interchangeably, although one cannot exist without the other; life cannot continue without air. When the breath is taken away, life ceases, we no longer breathe.

So what scriptures have you found that says our "spirits" are eternal?

[LouisBooth]

I don't believe in soul sleep. let me explain what I do believe. Okay, this might be a little hard to understand. To be absent from the body it to be with God..well when death comes and you go "to heaven" you are no longer confined by time..hence when you die you "go" to the endpoint of all time and hence the judgement and you are with God.

[drmmjr]

LouisBooth,

You're correct in it not being "soul sleep". When you die, you have no knowledge of anything. I guess it could be more like "suspended animation", except that the body decays.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
So what happens is you close your eyes in death, and then the next thing you know it is the resurrection. You have no knowledge of time passing. Seconds, or hundreds of years may have passed between those two points, but you don't know it.

[LouisBooth]

I disagree a little with you synapsis on it. I don't think you "close" your eyes at all..you become outside time....its a science thing I guess...I think that verse might be a little out of context because you will have memories in heaven. It is written that you will recognize people.

[drmmjr]

I'm not sure why you think this verse is taken out of context. We are talking about what happens when you die.

What scripture do you have that supports going to heaven at death?

[LouisBooth]

Paul has written that to be absend from the body is to be with God. I would say that the OT was different because that was not the case..but because jesus came now that is true.

[savinggrc]

I agree Louis, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. IMO, I think it's always been that way. I believe too much is made of the paradise thing. Folks who were believers - in the Christ to come - went to be with God just as do believers now.

drmmjr,

I don't see why you think that for the spirit to go back to where it came from makes it non-existent?!? We came from God, if we're saved, we go back to Him. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Karen

[LouisBooth]

"Folks who were believers - in the Christ to come - went to be with God just as do believers now."

hmm..I'm not too sure about that. I'm still meshing through all that because to me that's really low on the ladder as far as its not really docterine and not really something I could use to evangilize :lol: It is written that he "stormed" the gates and set the captives free is it not? maybe we should open a new tread saving...

[drmmjr]

I don't see why you think that for the spirit to go back to where it came from makes it non-existent?!? We came from God, if we're saved, we go back to Him. The two are not mutually exclusive.
As I have shown in a post above, the "spirit" is just the breath of life.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. - KJV
Ecclesiastes 12:7: The dust shall return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it. - KJV

There is nothing that says this "spirit" or breath is anything living. It's simply the air that we breath. If we stop breathing, we stop living.

Where does it say in scriptures that we have an immortal soul, or immortal spirit? It doesn't.

[LouisBooth]

"Where does it say in scriptures that we have an immortal soul, or immortal spirit? It doesn't."

We will be with God for eternity..that sounds like immortal to me ;) we didn't come from God, we weren't pre-exsistant.

[ZoneChaos]

drmmjr,

THe "Breath" that we are talking about here in reference to the Spirit, is not Air. It isn't a breath as in using my lungs to breathe in and out. Scripture states that it is the Breath of God.

Big difference there, between air and the Breath of God.

[drmmjr]

ZoneChaos,
The "Breath" that we are talking about here in reference to the Spirit, is not Air. It isn't a breath as in using my lungs to breathe in and out. Scripture states that it is the Breath of God.

Big difference there, between air and the Breath of God.
Reading Genesis, it says:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. - KJV

God breathed the breath of life. Yes is was His breath, but it is still air. What keeps us alive? The air that we breath in. If we cease to take in air, we die.

As you have seen in my earlier post, "spirit" is derived from the Hebrew word that means "breath".

When we die and God "takes back" this breath of life, is it our essence? Is it what make up our thoughts? No, it is what makes this body made from dust, live. Take away the breath and what do you have. Just a pile of dust.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

God brought these two things together and we became alive. Man has not been able to cause this to happen. When we bring a pile of dust and breath together, we get a face full of dust.

What does the breath of God mean to you?

[ZoneChaos]

How far will you break this down? Does a person not recieve a spirit until after birth? Does a fetus not have a spirit? If so, then is a spirit then not air, but elements like oxygen?

Or maybe our spirit is not air, but it is something else. Maybe the Breath of God is not air, but is something else... something supernatural, we can't explain.

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life

I think Genesis here is written iun such a way as to show that this "breath of life" is something more than air.. something special, something of God, something supernatural. First it says God breathed, but then clarifys to the reader what God breathed. Id does this to show that what God breathed was special and unique.

but it is still air.

What do you base this on?

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.


This verse you are using to supoprt your view on breath does not talk about breath.. why use it?

is it our essence?

Yes it is, for it is eternal. Physical air we breath in and out everyday cannot be our spriirt, or what makes out spirit becasue it is not eternal. God will destroy it. But our spirit will still exst, thus air cannot comprise our spirit, or our spirit would not be eternal.

[drmmjr]

Yes it is, for it is eternal. Physical air we breath in and out everyday cannot be our spriirt, or what makes out spirit becasue it is not eternal. God will destroy it. But our spirit will still exst, thus air cannot comprise our spirit, or our spirit would not be eternal.
What scripture are you using to define an eternal spirit? If we had an eternal spirit, then why would God have placed the cherubims to guard the Tree of Life in the garden (Genesis 3:22-24), why would the gift of God be eternal life (John 3:16).

If we are already eternal, then why would we need to be resurrected?

[ZoneChaos]

What scripture are you using to define an eternal spirit?

Well, the entire book of revelation for one.

Don't confuse Eternal life with Eternal existance. Everyone will exist for eternity. Iether in heaven and in the presence of God (eternal Life), or oin Hell, cut off from the presence of God (Eternal Death).

If we had an eternal spirit, then why would God have placed the cherubims to guard the Tree of Life in the garden

After the first sin, man was no longer perfect. If man had eaten of the tree of life, in that imperfect state, he would live eternally as an imperfect creation. God had to first give us a way to become perfect once again, and then He gives us the gift of eternal life.

why would the gift of God be eternal life

Again, don't confuse life with existance. Those who suffer in Hell, for eternity will be dead, but they will be aware of their death. That is the horror of an eternal death. Being sperate from GOd, being without life, and being aware of it, forever.

If we are already eternal, then why would we need to be resurrected?

God will ressurect our mortal bodies and change them to immortal, ones. We will then have our new Glorified bodies, and we will once agian be perfect in God's eyes as we were meant to be.

[ZoneChaos]

Here are scriptures that strongly suggest man's continued self-awareness and continued existence after death:

Luke 16:19-31 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

2 Cor. 5:6-8 "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"

Phil. 1:22-23 "But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:"

[drmmjr]

Luke 16:19-31 is a parable meant to show the Jews how they wouldn't believe the truth that Jesus brought. They wouldn't hear the prophets in the past, why would they listen to Jesus now. In fact, they wouldn't even listen to one who would be raised from the dead.

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Perhaps more of 2 Corinthians chapter 5 should be read. Paul is speaking of how we need to put worldly things (things of the body) that we are comfortable with aside. We need to concentrate on doing the things the Lord would have us to do. Look at verse 6 - Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:. Does this mean that while we are in our bodies we do not have the Lord? I would hope not.

Again, perhaps more of the chapter should be studied. Paul says that whether in life or in death, he wants to glorify Christ.

But if we go to some heavenly place at death, then why is death called the enemy. 1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

If we are in a heavenly place at death, why would we need to have our old bodies resurrected. Why once again restrict ourselves to a body, especially if we could do what ever we wanted without it.

[LouisBooth]

well I disagree about how you say about the verse in 2 cor. i think it is saying we are not in the presence of the father physically as moses was. He saw God. That is exacly why the next verse says we live on faith. look at the next verse ;) Oh and what do you say to the verses that say our we will become imperishable..ie not perishing..this is another way to say we will have everlasting life. Some verses even metion everlasting life ;) We will be eternally with God ;)

"Why once again restrict ourselves to a body, especially if we could do what ever we wanted without it. "

Ahh...good question. Because man is ment to have a physical side. If you look in genesis the spirit didn't exsist until God made the body and put spirit in it. Its a kind of duality...

[ZoneChaos]

More verses I found.. and a couple repeated with better explinations.



Phil. 1:21-24--"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain…But I am hardpressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake."
Paul says when he dies it is gain, that he departs, and that he is with Christ which is very much better. If Paul believed in "soul sleep," then he should have wished that he could live for over a hundred years on earth so he could keep ministering. But the benefit of dying is to be immediately with Christ, which is "very much better" than remaining on earth. He couldn't have said this if he believed in "soul sleep." Paul also used the word "departure" (the departing of his spirit to heaven) in 2 Tim. 4:6, referring to his death.

2 Cor. 5:6,8-9--"…while at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him."
Paul is again speaking of his inner man leaving his body at death to be with the Lord. He also said he preferred to be absent from his body so he could be with Jesus. Notice he said we could only be "at home or absent," not in an in-between state like soul sleep.

Matt. 22:31-32--"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Jesus revealed that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not dead, but living. Their bodies had died, but their souls and spirits were alive awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.

Luke 23:43--When Jesus was dying on the cross He said to the thief, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise."
The Jehovah's Witnesses cult moves to comma to make it read, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in Paradise." They change the Bible to fit "soul sleep"!

The phrase "Truly (Verily) I say unto you" is recorded over 70 times in the gospels, but not once "Truly I say unto you today." The thief knew that Jesus was talking to him that day, what he needed to know was when he would be with Him in paradise.

Which makes more sense? "Johnny, I am telling you the truth today, I am taking you to the zoo" or "Johnny, I am telling you the truth, today I am taking you to the zoo." Johnny needs to know what day he is going to the zoo, not what day you are talking to him! The meaning is without question: Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that day.

Matt. 17:3-4--Moses and Elijah talked with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Moses had been dead for a long time (Dt. 34:5) and Elijah was caught up alive to heaven. Moses wasn't soul-sleeping.
Luke 16:19-31--The Rich man and Lazarus. When the poor man Lazarus died he was "carried away by the angels" to Abraham's bosom (paradise). When the rich man died he went to Hades (hell) and was in torment. He was able to carry on a conversation with Abraham, who was on the other side of the chasm (v.26).
Abraham, who lived before Moses and the Prophets, told the rich man that his five brothers had "Moses and the Prophets" so the rich man and Lazarus lived after these books had been written. This clearly proves consciousness beyond the grave of people who lived during different times on earth. Those who believe in soul-sleep try to dismiss this verse saying it is "just a parable." Even if it were a "just a parable" (which it isn't), Jesus always taught parables to illustrate truth. These verses are clear: No soul-sleep.

James 2:26--"…the body without the spirit is dead…"
Heb. 9:27--"It is appointed for men to die once, and after this comes judgment."
It doesn't say that soul-sleep is in between.

Acts 7:54-60--As Stephen was dying, he prayed for Jesus to receive his spirit. Jesus was in heaven (vv.55-56).
1 Thess. 4:13-18--"…even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus…and the dead in Christ will rise first…"
When Jesus returns at the Rapture, He will bring with Him the spirits of those Christians who have already died and their bodies will be resurrected.

2 Peter 2:4-9--"…then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment."
The unrighteous are being punished in hell right now.

Jude 4-13--Just as some of the fallen angels are now under eternal punishment, so the wicked are suffering the same punishment (v.7).
Heb. 12:22-23--These verses tell us who is inhabiting heaven right now. Included are "the general assembly and the church of the firstborn" (New Testament saints) and "the spirits of righteous men made perfect" (Old Testament saints).
Rev. 6:9-11--This occurs in heaven: The souls of those who have been slain ask God to judge those on earth who have killed them. Verse 11 informs them that there are more on earth that will die.
Rev. 20:4--John sees the souls of those who had died and they received their resurrection bodies and reigned with Christ.
Matt. 10:28--"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and body in hell."
There is a difference between killing the body and killing the soul. The first is physical death; the second is spiritual death or the second death (Rev. 20:6, 12-15).

John 11:25-26--"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die."
For the believer, we continue to live even though the body may die because our spirits will never die.

Luke 8:49-55--The girl had died and Jesus said, "She has not died, but is asleep." Her body fell asleep at death. When He brought her back to life, "her spirit returned" and she rose up (v.55).
Gen. 35:18--Rachel died and her soul departed.
Eccl. 9:5--"…but the dead do not know anything…"
A dead body doesn't know anything. Solomon is speaking from earth's perspective, for life "under the sun" (9:3, 6, 9, 11, 13). Later in the book he explains what happens at death, "the dust will return to the earth as it was (body), and the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7).

Psalm 146:3-4--In speaking of death: his spirit departs, he (body) returns to the earth.

[drmmjr]

Ecclesiastes 3:18 - I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 - For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.
20 - All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 - Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
22 - Wherefore I perceive that [there is] nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that [is] his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

If our spirit departs at death, then why do the dead not know anything. Do we become stupid at death?

[LouisBooth]

"Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This passage is just saying that life isn't fair in sorts. it is not saying we are stupid when we die. Why not check the NT references, for they seem to give more light to what the "afterlife" is like. When Jesus spoke on the woman marrying three times he addresses the poine that we will know each other in heaven ;)

[ZoneChaos]

Yeah.. what she said.. ;)

[LouisBooth]

she who?

[newcreation]

Friends,

Eternal life is the same as immortality.

5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who "will render to each one according to his deeds":[1] 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Rom.2:5-7

The apostle Paul knew the story of Lazerus. He knew about Elijah and Enoch. He must have interpreted these things different from todays Christians. Why?

15which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. 1 Tim. 6:15-16

He taught that ONLY YASHUA has IMMORTALITY. If he only is immortal no one else is. That's what makes the RESURRECTION one of the foundation doctrines of the faith.
Instant immortality at death is not mentioned in Heb.6.

[drmmjr]

He taught that ONLY YASHUA has IMMORTALITY. If he only is immortal no one else is. That's what makes the RESURRECTION one of the foundation doctrines of the faith.
Instant immortality at death is not mentioned in Heb.6.

That has been my point all along. When you die, you don't get the gift of eternal life (become immortal) until the resurrection at the Second Coming of Jesus.

Someone mentioned Lazarus and the girl that Jesus raised from the dead, and how their spirits came back from heaven to their bodies. Well, it would seem to me, that if they had been in heaven, they would have "pitched a fit" at being brought back to this world and bodies.

Think about it. God has a gift that He is going to give those who believe that Jesus died for their sins. The gift is eternal life. Now, if you were promised a gift for doing something good, and were given the gift, only to have it taken back because it wasn't time to give you the gift; wouldn't you be upset at having it taken from you. Especially when you saw and felt how good it was.

[ZoneChaos]

Eternal life is the same as immortality.


Two things.. where do you find that immortality equates to eternal life, and are we talking about the body or soul here?

[ZoneChaos]

When you die, you don't get the gift of eternal life (become immortal)

This assumes that these are the same thing. And, if they were, this would rule out another main tennant of Christinaity: Eternal Death. If immortality, of the soul, is equated with eternal life, then that would mean that eternal death could not exist, else, how is a soul supposed to be eternally tormented in death without the ability to exist immortally? Maybe immortalkity is the worng wor dhere.. maybe we need a word like permenent or a word that means a "permanent existance". Thus, the soul, not having recieved eternal life, will still have a permenent existance (one that the soul is aware of) in death.

[LouisBooth]

"Maybe immortalkity is the worng wor dhere.. maybe we need a word like permenent or a word that means a "permanent existance". "

I got a word for ya ;) imperishable..its biblical ..hehehe

[ZoneChaos]

Aye that is the word I was looking for.. immortal is so.. "fleshy" ;)

[newcreation]

The wages of sin is DEATH. Death is eternal in that it is the cessetion of life. It is NOT immortality in hell. mike

[ZoneChaos]

That is why I said immortality is the wrong word here. a person sufferingn in hell, is not alive, but that person does still exist.

[Habakkuk3]

mebbe someone DREAMED IT -- get it -- DREAMED IT?

Ha

.
.
.
.
.

ha hah

[drmmjr]

I guess that when you speak of hell, you speak of where those who are not written in the Lamb's book of life will be sent after judgement.
That is why I said immortality is the wrong word here. a person sufferingn in hell, is not alive, but that person does still exist.
If the person exists, but is not alive, how will they know they are suffering?

And what about the following scripture:
Malachi 4:1 - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 - But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.
Looks like those who are judged unworthy will be utterly consumed and destroyed.

[ZoneChaos]

I guess that when you speak of hell, you speak of where those who are not written in the Lamb's book of life will be sent after judgement.

No, i just assumed that if I used the word hell, others would understand what I meant: the place souls currently are (from the point of view that there is no soul sleep) that are not with God.

If the person exists, but is not alive, how will they know they are suffering?

As far as the mechanics of it? No clue. But the Bible says that those who are cast out of God's presence forever will be aware of their sufering. They do not have life, they have death, but they are aware. They will know they are not in the presence of God, and will know it forever, and that will be the most horrific torment of all.

As far as the passage you wrote, you can interpret it as saying that those judged unworthy will have their souls destroyed (wiped out of existance), but the interpretation would be wrong, becasue it would contradict Revelation.

Malachi is talking about the end of the physical world as it exists today. Malachi prophisies about the end times and the second coming of Christ. These verses depict a small part of what wil hapen to the earth at the end of the seven years. God, the second time around (first being flood) will consume the earth in fire. This is also in Revelation. What Malachi is talking about is very real, and very physical.

Looks like those who are judged unworthy will be utterly consumed and destroyed.

Physically, yes, but this verse says nothing of their souls.

[drmmjr]

What is a soul? Leviticus 5:1,2,and 4 says, "If a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity. Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle ... he also shall be unclean ... Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good ... then he shall be guilty." In this passage the question, "Can a soul sin?" is answered, for we read, "If a soul sin ... then he shall bear his iniquity." What is a soul? In this passage, the soul could hear, could be a witness, could see, could understand, could touch, could swear with his lips, and could sin. What does this describe? This describes a person.
It is quite clear then, that according to the Bible, a soul can die. It is stated in James 5:19,20, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." We can save a soul or person from death, the second death, by converting him from sin to the righteousness of Christ. But if that person is not converted to Christ, he shall die. This is plainly stated in Ezekiel 18:4 and 20, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Only after our sins are forgiven do we receive the promises of everlasting life and escape from the lake of fire, which is the second death.

[ZoneChaos]

What is a soul?

That part of us that makes us more than mortal. The part of us that will exist beyond out earthly bodies.

This describes a person.

Yes it does. The Bible uses the word soul in many ways to depict man, both in the pjysical and spiritual world.

It is quite clear then, that according to the Bible, a soul can die.

Only if you limit your voew of what the soul is to the particular view stated above in your post. And, wether the souls can die or not, this is different than it ceasing to exist.

In death, the soul still exists.

which is the second death.


This second death, which is eternal, is not finite to the existance of the soul, only finite is the state of the soul. Once the souls has been judged, and not found in the lambs book of life, it will enter a finite state of existance, unchanging, this state of existance is death. NOw, in this state of existance it will exist eternaly, both daed and aware being dead.

[LouisBooth]

umm...good discussion..but ya'll are on another topic...open a new thread?

[drmmjr]

I thought the topic was about souls?

[ZoneChaos]

Hey LB, I think we are still on topic. Part of discussing Soul Sleep is determining what the souls "is".

[LouisBooth]

actually it seemed you got into the death of souls..another topic entirely ;)

[drmmjr]

1 - What is a soul? - A person.
2 - Is a soul immortal? - No. See #1. Also, immortal soul is never mentioned in Scripture.
3 - Does a soul die? - Yes. See #1.
4 - Does a soul sleep? - not in the normal sense of sleep (with dreams).

So have we been talking about "soul sleep" or souls dying. They are so intertwined you can't talk about one topic without the other coming up.

[LouisBooth]

okay, if you say so..:lol: souls are immortal, why would you think they are not?

[ZoneChaos]

The Soul is what is left after hte Body is destroyed. It is our person, it is who we are, not what we are. A souls is not tangible, it is not physical any any sense of the word. It has nothing to do with air, or neurons... it is a spiritual device existing in a spiritual universe, seperate and apart from the physical one, and yet bound by it, to give the physical form of ourselves meaning.

When the body dies, the soul still exists.

[drmmjr]

LouisBooth okay, if you say so.. souls are immortal, why would you think they are not?
It doesn't say they are in scripture.

ZoneChaos The Soul is what is left after hte Body is destroyed. It is our person, it is who we are, not what we are. A souls is not tangible, it is not physical any any sense of the word. It has nothing to do with air, or neurons... it is a spiritual device existing in a spiritual universe, seperate and apart from the physical one, and yet bound by it, to give the physical form of ourselves meaning.

When the body dies, the soul still exists.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

What happens when you seperate the two things that man is made from (matter and breath of life)? You no longer have a living soul. A living soul is made up of these two things.

[ZoneChaos]

Before we continue... Do you hold to the Dichotomy position or the Trichotomy position?

Often times, the word souls is used interchangebaly with the word spirit.

I think I have been using the meaning of spirit in my argument here, when referring to soul.

If we hold to the Dichotomy view, would that change the argument to "Spirit sleep"? ;)

Anyway. If we accept that soul = body + breath, and the body, as a soul dies, then it is dead. It is not sleeping.. so there is no "soul sleep", only "soul death." The problem with a Dichotomy view is that whn we die... whatever is left that is not physical goes somewhere.. that is in scripture. So we are then left with a redefined Dichotomy, which is body and spirit.

And if we hold to the Trichotomy view, then as above, the soul dies, along with the body, and the spirit still remains.

In either case, there is no sleep of the soul, only death. And there is no sleep of the spirit, for as we see in scripture, the spirit of a man is aware, coherant, and active.

[drmmjr]

Do you hold to the Dichotomy position or the Trichotomy position?

Huh? 8o

[ZoneChaos]

Dichotomy teaches that man is made up of two parts: Body and Spirit.. the Trichotomy position says it is made up of Body, Soul, and Spirit

[quickas]

It is false Doctrine

[drmmjr]

Anyway. If we accept that soul = body + breath, and the body, as a soul dies, then it is dead. It is not sleeping.. so there is no "soul sleep", only "soul death." The problem with a Dichotomy view is that whn we die... whatever is left that is not physical goes somewhere.. that is in scripture. So we are then left with a redefined Dichotomy, which is body and spirit.
Sleep is probably not the best word to use. It was most likely used because of these verses:

Matt. 9:23 - And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,
24 - He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Mark 5:38 - And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.
39 - And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
40 - And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.

Luke 8:51 - And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
52 - And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 - And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

John 11:11 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 - Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 - Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 - Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Now here we see that in these verses Jesus is speaking of death as sleep. If they weren't dead then I don't think that Jesus would have reacted like this: (John 11:35 - Jesus wept.) when he saw Lazarus in the tomb. I don't think that Martha would have made this comment: John 11:39 - Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

The problem with a Dichotomy view is that whn we die... whatever is left that is not physical goes somewhere.. that is in scripture.
It would be interesting to see the scripture that says this.
In either case, there is no sleep of the soul, only death. And there is no sleep of the spirit, for as we see in scripture, the spirit of a man is aware, coherant, and active.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

If we are aware, then why do the dead not know anything?