Questions on Calvinism and Apostasy

[Monergism]

Hello, everyone. I'm a five-point Calvinist, and I have a question. Now, I believe in Perseverance of the Saints, which stated below from Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics (CRTA):

"Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect."
http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html

Now, for apostasy:
1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?
2. If "Yes," then this is against what Calvinists teach.
3. If "No," then was he deceived?
4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?

As this is questions for Calvinists, I only expect answers and arguments from Calvinists.:thumbsup:

[jonas3]

Well, I'm not a "Calvinist", but here's my answer. (Note that I do believe in the doctrines of grace.)

1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?

A Christian (i.e. a regenerate person) CANNOT fall away from Christ.

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." - Jn 6:39

If a person has been SEALED with the Holy Spirit (2Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30), that seal is permanent.

"37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – Ro 8:37-39.

Therefore, my answer to your question is an absolute NO. The person that you speak of was not truly a Christian, but an unregenerate unbeliever throughout the entire time that he professed "faith" in his "christ". This person was most certainly deceived, but their temporary false profession of "Christianity" did not make them anymore or less deceived. They were ignorant of the gospel the entire time.


4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?


Absolutely, an unregenerate person can be very religious. I posted this brief comment in another post, but here it is again.

An unregenerate person can read the Bible, an unregenerate person can "know the way of righteousness" (2Pet 2:21), an unregenerate person can say "Jesus is Lord", an unregenerate person can believe the doctrines of grace, an unregenerate person can draw nigh unto Christ with his mouth (Mt 15:8), an unregenerate person can strive to keep God's commandments, an unregenerate person can know the Lord's will, but in the end he remains just that: unregenerate, and he shall be appointed his portion with the UNBELIEVERS (Lk 12:46).

-jonas

[reformedfan]

good answer, non Calvinist Jonas

[frumanchu]

1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?

No. Apostasy is defined as leaving the faith one professes. One who professes faith in Christ and then renounces that profession is by definition an apostate. It does not, however, mean that they ever truly possessed saving faith.

2. If "Yes," then this is against what Calvinists teach.

Apostasy is real. People can and do profess faith in Christ only to later fall away for myriad reasons. In doing so they show their faith to be less than authentic saving faith.

3. If "No," then was he deceived?

Either deceived by others or deceived by themselves. There are all sorts of possibilities.

4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?


Of course! People vainly deceive themselves all the time, and it often boils down to a sense of self-righteousness.

[Erinwilcox]

Now, for apostasy:

1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?

2. If "Yes," then this is against what Calvinists teach.

3. If "No," then was he deceived?

4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?



As this is questions for Calvinists, I only expect answers and arguments from Calvinists.



Alright, you see my tulip badge. Can I answer now?



1. The answer would depend on the following points:

a. does he fall away forever

b. does he fall away only for a time and then repent at a later date

If the answer is a, then my response would be no, he was never truly a Christian. If the answer is b, then yes he was truly a Christian. Remember, Perseverant of the Saints-those who are truly in Christ will persevere. If he truly was a Christian, then he will repent of his backsliding and return to FULL fellowship with Christ.



2. I think that I answered this in the latter part of answer 1 when talking about choice b. It all depends on the person. If b was the case, then it does NOT go against Calvinism.



3. If the answer is no, then yes-he was deceived. Let me pose a question. How many people pray the sinner's prayer, walk away and live their lives like ever before, and never think about their "conversion" again except to think of it like an insurance policy to show God when they die. I have known so many people who have prayed the prayer and then gone back to their drinking, their drugs, their pre-marital sex, etc. only to swear for the rest of their lives that they are saved because they prayed the prayer. They don't even bother to ever go to church! YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT!!!



4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not? Yeah, if he is reprobate! But really, I think that I answered that in question three. Many people who respond emotionally to an alter call feel that they are saved for the rest of their lives, but they were never truly converted. Notice that I did not say ALL. But people get a false assurance because they prayed some prayer. If there is no change in their lives, if they did not repent and TURN from there evil ways, if they did not really consecrate their lives to Christ, then are they Saved? I would think not.



Was that Calvinistic enough for you? I was glad to see that you requested only Calvinists to respond. . .I'll have to use that one sometime!

[GLJCA]

Now, for apostasy:
1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?
2. If "Yes," then this is against what Calvinists teach.
3. If "No," then was he deceived?
4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?

As this is questions for Calvinists, I only expect answers and arguments from Calvinists.:thumbsup:

1. Isn't the definition of Christian "a follower of Christ"? Are you defining the word Christian as "one ordained to eternal life"? It was in Antioch that the followers of Christ first started being called Christian. Does that mean that, because they were called Christians, every person in the church of Antioch was ordained to eternal life? If someone in the Church of Antioch fell away does that mean that they never followed Christ. In the same way Judas was called a disciple of Christ. Do we say that since he fell away he was never a disciple?

Are you asking if someone who is ordained to eternal life falls away then is he still ordained to eternal life? If so, I will say that if someone who is ordained to eternal life does fall he will be disciplined and brought back to the Covenant, because if God ordained that he have eternal life then noone or nothing can snatch him out of God's hand.

I will also say that on an individual basis that since we don't know who is ordained to eternal life then we have no way of answering whether that person was ever in or out.

Our terminology has to be consistent with the Word of God or we as Calvinist will definitely be misunderstood.

4. In answer to your last question. I would tend to say yes. In Matt 7:21-23 there were some that I believe were outside of the covenant of God that felt that if they did the works of a believer then God would accept them into heaven, to their demise. Also 2Peter 1:10 tells us to make our calling and election sure for in doing these things we will never fall. This tells me that someone can be deceived into thinking that he is all right spiritually when, in reality they are not, or else why would we need to make sure of our calling?

GLJCA

[Monergism]

I apologize for being away for some time. But thank you all who answered my questions.:)

[hlaltimus]

The historic position of the doctrine of perseverence of the saints has always been, NO, a true Christian cannot irreversibly fall away and be damned, but people such as the persecuted Puritans were awfully careful about who they called a "Christian". Those old fellows, who acted as though they didn't know the meaning of the word "unthorough", would have pointedly used the term "justified" in place of our more universally used word "saved" when asserting the permanence of the saint's posititon. As justification is a specific term and saved is a general term, this protected the Puritan's position, as to the perseverence of the saints, in a biblical fashion thus: He would state that a Justified believer cannot utterly apostasize, and in so doing would limited down any example of a so called "Christian" of being lost, which example could now not be found since "...those whom He justified, He glorified." But if a guy like Thomas Brooks was so smart, then why is there yet such abundant evidence everywhere of people who had every appearance of being "saved" Christians yet totally apostasize from the faith? The old Puritan is safe here too because he used the word "justified" while the general word "saved" can refer to a temporal or physical salvation allowed for in the bible. Every unbeliever on Earth right now is being saved, temporally speaking, from the eternal punishment that he merits and that temporal salvation will end some day given he does not repent and believe.
Answer #3 would be correct...He who appeared to be a true "Christian" and yet finally fell away was deceived about his so called salvation. He should have read the Puritans on the doctrine of sanctification!

[Rolf Ernst]

Well, I'm not a "Calvinist", but here's my answer. (Note that I do believe in the doctrines of grace.)



A Christian (i.e. a regenerate person) CANNOT fall away from Christ.

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." - Jn 6:39

If a person has been SEALED with the Holy Spirit (2Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30), that seal is permanent.

"37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – Ro 8:37-39.

Therefore, my answer to your question is an absolute NO. The person that you speak of was not truly a Christian, but an unregenerate unbeliever throughout the entire time that he professed "faith" in his "christ". This person was most certainly deceived, but their temporary false profession of "Christianity" did not make them anymore or less deceived. They were ignorant of the gospel the entire time.



Absolutely, an unregenerate person can be very religious. I posted this brief comment in another post, but here it is again.

An unregenerate person can read the Bible, an unregenerate person can "know the way of righteousness" (2Pet 2:21), an unregenerate person can say "Jesus is Lord", an unregenerate person can believe the doctrines of grace, an unregenerate person can draw nigh unto Christ with his mouth (Mt 15:8), an unregenerate person can strive to keep God's commandments, an unregenerate person can know the Lord's will, but in the end he remains just that: unregenerate, and he shall be appointed his portion with the UNBELIEVERS (Lk 12:46).

-jonas I wonder why Jonas3 can't find a forum called "Ask An Arminian"? Maybe because not many would care to ask an Arminian, hmm?

[jonas3]

I wonder why Jonas3 can't find a forum called "Ask An Arminian"? Maybe because not many would care to ask an Arminian, hmm?

Hello Rolf Ernst, let's see who the Arminian is. I believe that there is not ONE Arminian who is presently saved (i.e. regenerate). NOT ONE. Why? Because I believe the gospel, which is God's promise to save His people (Mat 1:21) conditioned on the atoning blood (Heb 9:12-14) and imputed righteousness of Christ alone (Ro 4:6-8).

Arminians believe that Jesus died for everyone without exception (i.e. universal atonement) and thus do not believe the gospel, because they do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but that it is the conditional work of the sinner to have "faith" in order to make Christ’s sacrifice effective towards him, which is blasphemy. They believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception including those who end up in hell. However, if Christ died for those who end up in hell, then what did the blood of Jesus Christ actually accomplish for that person in hell? It accomplished nothing, and what was the reason that Christ’s blood was not effective for that person in hell? An Arminian would say that it is because that person did not have “faith”, or because that person rejected Christ. Therefore, under their view, we see that it is NOT the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but rather the conditional WORK of the sinner to have “faith” in this “christ" who died for everyone without exception. They do NOT believe that they are saved by grace, because they boast in their own works (i.e. their faith). If a person can rightly say that he is saved because he had faith over another person, then he has conditioned his salvation on himself, and not on the finished work of Christ, and he has made grace no more grace (Ro 11:6).

Additionally, those who speak peace to Arminians by calling them brothers and sisters in Christ show themselves to be unregenerate. Those who do not believe that ALL who believe in universal atonement are presently lost (i.e. unregenerate) do not truly believe that universal atonement is a false gospel, and if one does not truly believe that universal atonement is a false gospel, then they must believe that it is either true, or that the atonement is not apart of the gospel; therefore, this person shows themselves to be unregenerate (i.e. lost). Why? That is because it shows that they do not believe in or understand the true gospel, seeing how they put no difference between a truth and a lie, and no lie is of the truth (1Jn 2:21). They have spoken peace to one who does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ, and they are a partaker of their evil deeds, as it is written,

"9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." - 2Jn 1:9-11

As a result, Rolf Ernst, do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are presently unregenerate?

And, do you believe that all who speak peace to Arminians (i.e. by calling them brothers or sisters in Christ) are presently unregenerate?

-jonas

[Bob Moore]

Now, for apostasy:
1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?
2. If "Yes," then this is against what Calvinists teach.
3. If "No," then was he deceived?
4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?

As this is questions for Calvinists, I only expect answers and arguments from Calvinists.:thumbsup:

First question: A genuine Christian (and only God knows who they are) can never completely fall away. But someone who only had the name but not the reality can, and frequently will, withdraw from the church completely. Such a person could never fall away from Christ though because he was never His in the first place.

Regarding deception: Deception comes from several sources. The pride of the man, the work of Satan, the love of the world, etc. I think one of the best tricks Satan has is to tell the truth--but not all of it, and that is what a lot of churches do. But usually Satan doesn't have to do anything because the nature of the fallen man is such that, not understanding grace, he thinks he can do something to make himself acceptable before God. When at length he realizes that he is no better off (and is perhaps worse) than before he falls away and vehemently denies the reality of the cross. We see in Matthew 7 that on that day Jesus is going to drive away "many" who think they are justified, but who are deceived. We constantly find that there are indeed many who prefer to put man made theology in place of the Bible. Not that every teaching is obvious, but none is difficult to grasp. Unless, of course, the fallen nature is still in the way. In which case deception is at hand.

Last question: "Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?" Certainly. The churches are full of them. "Few there be that find it". Again, see Matthew 7.

[Rolf Ernst]

Hello Rolf Ernst, let's see who the Arminian is. I believe that there is not ONE Arminian who is presently saved (i.e. regenerate). NOT ONE. Why? Because I believe the gospel, which is God's promise to save His people (Mat 1:21) conditioned on the atoning blood (Heb 9:12-14) and imputed righteousness of Christ alone (Ro 4:6-8).

Arminians believe that Jesus died for everyone without exception (i.e. universal atonement) and thus do not believe the gospel, because they do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but that it is the conditional work of the sinner to have "faith" in order to make Christ’s sacrifice effective towards him, which is blasphemy. They believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception including those who end up in hell. However, if Christ died for those who end up in hell, then what did the blood of Jesus Christ actually accomplish for that person in hell? It accomplished nothing, and what was the reason that Christ’s blood was not effective for that person in hell? An Arminian would say that it is because that person did not have “faith”, or because that person rejected Christ. Therefore, under their view, we see that it is NOT the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but rather the conditional WORK of the sinner to have “faith” in this “christ" who died for everyone without exception. They do NOT believe that they are saved by grace, because they boast in their own works (i.e. their faith). If a person can rightly say that he is saved because he had faith over another person, then he has conditioned his salvation on himself, and not on the finished work of Christ, and he has made grace no more grace (Ro 11:6).

Additionally, those who speak peace to Arminians by calling them brothers and sisters in Christ show themselves to be unregenerate. Those who do not believe that ALL who believe in universal atonement are presently lost (i.e. unregenerate) do not truly believe that universal atonement is a false gospel, and if one does not truly believe that universal atonement is a false gospel, then they must believe that it is either true, or that the atonement is not apart of the gospel; therefore, this person shows themselves to be unregenerate (i.e. lost). Why? That is because it shows that they do not believe in or understand the true gospel, seeing how they put no difference between a truth and a lie, and no lie is of the truth (1Jn 2:21). They have spoken peace to one who does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ, and they are a partaker of their evil deeds, as it is written,

"9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." - 2Jn 1:9-11

As a result, Rolf Ernst, do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are presently unregenerate?

And, do you believe that all who speak peace to Arminians (i.e. by calling them brothers or sisters in Christ) are presently unregenerate?

-jonas
We must be careful to distinguish the difference between those who are Arminian because they have not advanced in their study of theology sufficiently and those who are Arminian out of a hardness of heart toward the doctrines of grace. I believe people can be Arminians doctrinally simply because they are not far enough advanced in the faith, but if they are truly regenerate, I believe that they will find the doctrines of grace to be heart warming and gratifying. I myself was doctrinally an Arminian, but there was an ache in my heart to know the truth of God more fully, and that fine spring Sunday afternoon when I devoted myself to a close study of Isa. 53, I felt like I had come home!! That was my experience as a regenerate Arminian. But like you, I don't beleive a real Christian would find the doctrines of grace unpleasant at all.

[Bob Moore]

I think the Arminian position of universal attonment arises because they have failed to distinguish between sufficient and efficient. When the Scriptures speak of the "whole world" they are speaking of sufficiency, but what is sufficient for all is efficient only for the elect.

[Erinwilcox]

Hello Rolf Ernst, let's see who the Arminian is. I believe that there is not ONE Arminian who is presently saved (i.e. regenerate). NOT ONE. Why? Because I believe the gospel, which is God's promise to save His people (Mat 1:21) conditioned on the atoning blood (Heb 9:12-14) and imputed righteousness of Christ alone (Ro 4:6-8).

Arminians believe that Jesus died for everyone without exception (i.e. universal atonement) and thus do not believe the gospel, because they do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but that it is the conditional work of the sinner to have "faith" in order to make Christ’s sacrifice effective towards him, which is blasphemy. They believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception including those who end up in hell. However, if Christ died for those who end up in hell, then what did the blood of Jesus Christ actually accomplish for that person in hell? It accomplished nothing, and what was the reason that Christ’s blood was not effective for that person in hell? An Arminian would say that it is because that person did not have “faith”, or because that person rejected Christ. Therefore, under their view, we see that it is NOT the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but rather the conditional WORK of the sinner to have “faith” in this “christ" who died for everyone without exception. They do NOT believe that they are saved by grace, because they boast in their own works (i.e. their faith). If a person can rightly say that he is saved because he had faith over another person, then he has conditioned his salvation on himself, and not on the finished work of Christ, and he has made grace no more grace (Ro 11:6).

Additionally, those who speak peace to Arminians by calling them brothers and sisters in Christ show themselves to be unregenerate. Those who do not believe that ALL who believe in universal atonement are presently lost (i.e. unregenerate) do not truly believe that universal atonement is a false gospel, and if one does not truly believe that universal atonement is a false gospel, then they must believe that it is either true, or that the atonement is not apart of the gospel; therefore, this person shows themselves to be unregenerate (i.e. lost). Why? That is because it shows that they do not believe in or understand the true gospel, seeing how they put no difference between a truth and a lie, and no lie is of the truth (1Jn 2:21). They have spoken peace to one who does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ, and they are a partaker of their evil deeds, as it is written,

"9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." - 2Jn 1:9-11

As a result, Rolf Ernst, do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are presently unregenerate?

And, do you believe that all who speak peace to Arminians (i.e. by calling them brothers or sisters in Christ) are presently unregenerate?

-jonas


I know that this is an older post, but YIKES!!!! Scary stuff! Now, I would NEVER say that ABSOLUTELY NO ARMINIAN HAS EVER BEEN SAVED, NO ARMINIAN IS PRESENTLY SAVED, OR EVER WILL BE, which is the logical conclusion to jonas' statement. Umm, whew! That's dangerous. I was an Arminian for many years and I was saved. My parents were Arminian for almost twenty years and they were saved during that time. Now, I will admit that not all Arminians are saved, but to say that absolutely none are is. . . wrong, to say the least. To judge a man's salvation? I know, you will know them by their fruits. . .many Arminians have much good fruit and truly love the Lord. Many Arminians are just uninformed, illtaught. I was one of those. I didn't even know what Calvinism was until my parents began studying it. . .

[jonas3]

We must be careful to distinguish the difference between those who are Arminian because they have not advanced in their study of theology sufficiently and those who are Arminian out of a hardness of heart toward the doctrines of grace. I believe people can be Arminians doctrinally simply because they are not far enough advanced in the faith, but if they are truly regenerate, I believe that they will find the doctrines of grace to be heart warming and gratifying. I myself was doctrinally an Arminian, but there was an ache in my heart to know the truth of God more fully, and that fine spring Sunday afternoon when I devoted myself to a close study of Isa. 53, I felt like I had come home!! That was my experience as a regenerate Arminian. But like you, I don't beleive a real Christian would find the doctrines of grace unpleasant at all.

This is absolutely absurd, and how do you actually judge the difference between the Arminian who has not advanced in their studies verses the Arminian who is harden in his heart? By what standard do you judge? Also, would you say the same of Muslims, or Mormons, or Jehovah’s Witnesses? Are there some of them who are not, “advanced in their study of theology sufficiently?” Are there some of them who are not, “far enough advanced in the faith”? Are there, "regenerate Muslims", or "regenerate Mormons", or "regenerate Jehovah's Witnesses"?

Do you believe that all who believe in Muslimism are presently unregenerate? Recall that Muslims do not believe that Jesus is God. Now, if you are consistent you will have to answer this question with a no; however, if you are a hypocrite, then you would have to answer this question with a yes, and if you answer this question with a yes, then why do you not answer the same regarding Arminianism? It is because you do not think it is a false gospel.

Jesus said,

“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” – Mat 7:18.

“4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” – Jn 10:4-5

The Holy Spirit does NOT let an individual remain ignorant of the gospel after regeneration. Immediately upon regeneration an individual is given the knowledge of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel.

“16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” – Ro 1:16-17

Those who are regenerate believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ. They understand how God is just to justify the ungodly based on the work of Jesus Christ alone TOTALLY apart from the sinners efforts (Ro 3:20-28). They KNOW the true and living God of heaven. If someone professes a false gospel, such as “universal atonement”, then they do NOT know the true God of the Bible. They do NOT believe that the only difference between salvation and damnation is the work of Christ on the cross alone, because they believe that the work of Christ was for everyone in the entire world! All of God’s regenerate elect KNOW the true God, and believe the gospel.

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” – Jn 17:3

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.” – Ro 6:17

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." – 1Cor 12:3

Think carefully about that last verse.

“3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” – 2Cor 4:3-6

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.” – 1Jn 5:20.

-jonas

[jonas3]

I know that this is an older post, but YIKES!!!! Scary stuff! Now, I would NEVER say that ABSOLUTELY NO ARMINIAN HAS EVER BEEN SAVED, NO ARMINIAN IS PRESENTLY SAVED, OR EVER WILL BE, which is the logical conclusion to jonas' statement. Umm, whew! That's dangerous. I was an Arminian for many years and I was saved. My parents were Arminian for almost twenty years and they were saved during that time. Now, I will admit that not all Arminians are saved, but to say that absolutely none are is. . . wrong, to say the least. To judge a man's salvation? I know, you will know them by their fruits. . .many Arminians have much good fruit and truly love the Lord. Many Arminians are just uninformed, illtaught. I was one of those. I didn't even know what Calvinism was until my parents began studying it. . .

Erinwilcox, where did I say that absolutely no Arminian has ever been saved, or that no Arminian ever will be saved? This is a false accusation. I never said this nor do I believe this blasphemy. I was once a lost God-hating Arminian myself.

What I DID say, which you got right 1/3 of the time, was that no Arminian is PRESENTLY saved (i.e. regenerate), which is a big difference. I am not saying that all Arminians are certainly going to hell, because Christian’s do not judge the eternal state of anyone. What I am saying is that NO Arminian is PRESENTLY saved (i.e. regenerate). In fact, NO ONE is PRESENTLY saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing in a false gospel. Look at it this way.

1. All who believe in a false gospel are not saved. (Do you agree?)
2. Arminianism is a false gospel. (Do you agree?)
3. Therefore, all who believe in Arminianism are not saved.

Now, you do not agree with the conclusion above because you said,


- “I was an Arminian for many years and I was saved.”
- “My parents were Arminian for almost twenty years and they were saved during that time.”

Since I know that you do NOT agree with the conclusion presented above, this means that you must disagree with one of the two premises since the conclusion logically follows from the premises. If one does not believe the first premise, then you do not believe in an exclusive gospel, but rather that "there are many paths to God”, seeing that if one could be saved while believing in a false gospel, then it must not make any difference what a saved person believes. If you do not believe the second premise, then you either do not know what Arminianism is or you do not know what the gospel is. Since you do know what Arminianism is, then you must not understand what the gospel is. Now, if you claim to believe the second premise and yet do not believe the conclusion you are a liar according to the 1John 2:21-22.

-jonas

[frumanchu]

jonas, are you willing to state before God and man, without qualification, that you are 100% correct in every fact and facet of your doctrinal beliefs and that you do not hold any positions which are even slightly incorrect?

[jonas3]

jonas, are you willing to state before God and man, without qualification, that you are 100% correct in every fact and facet of your doctrinal beliefs and that you do not hold any positions which are even slightly incorrect?

I absolutely believe the GOSPEL. I have NO ERROR in relation to the gospel. I will stand before God being justified by God given FAITH, which faith professes, that God has promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts. I know that I am saved because of the work of Jesus Christ alone for His people alone.

-jonas

[Erinwilcox]

I said logical conclusion, I did not quote your statement. If there is no Arminian presently saved, then that is basically saying that no one who is an Arminian can be saved. Thus, as long as someone remains an Arminian, they are not saved. Thus, anyone throughout history or in the future who lives and dies as an Arminian would not be saved. That is the logical conclusion of your statement. This is false. The doctrinal errors of the Arminians are not damning in and of themselves. True, not all Arminians are saved because many have false assurance because they failed to repent and believe (they prayed a prayer). However, the the Bible says to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Many Arminians have done this. The Bible does not say, "You must agree with Calvinistic doctrine and you shall be saved." Thus, doctrinal misconceptions like the Arminians are not damning like the ones of that huge church whose name I must not here name :D. The one teaches salvation by works. . .the Arminians still believe that one must trust in Christ for salvation.

[frumanchu]

I absolutely believe the GOSPEL. I have NO ERROR in relation to the gospel. I will stand before God being justified by God given FAITH, which faith professes, that God has promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts. I know that I am saved because of the work of Jesus Christ alone for His people alone.

-jonas

The problem here, jonas, is that you are being inconsistent in applying that principle in saying that God has "promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts" while at the same time condemning men who do not intellectually accept or agree with all the particulars of how that is accomplished.

I know of no Arminian (I'm speaking both historically and experientially) who would disagree with the Gospel message as you presented it above.

I believe that Arminians are saved, albeit by "felicitous inconsistency" (with apologies to Sproul).

[Rolf Ernst]

This is absolutely absurd, and how do you actually judge the difference between the Arminian who has not advanced in their studies verses the Arminian who is harden in his heart? By what standard do you judge? Also, would you say the same of Muslims, or Mormons, or Jehovah’s Witnesses? Are there some of them who are not, “advanced in their study of theology sufficiently?” Are there some of them who are not, “far enough advanced in the faith”? Are there, "regenerate Muslims", or "regenerate Mormons", or "regenerate Jehovah's Witnesses"?

Do you believe that all who believe in Muslimism are presently unregenerate? Recall that Muslims do not believe that Jesus is God. Now, if you are consistent you will have to answer this question with a no; however, if you are a hypocrite, then you would have to answer this question with a yes, and if you answer this question with a yes, then why do you not answer the same regarding Arminianism? It is because you do not think it is a false gospel.

Jesus said,

“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” – Mat 7:18.

“4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” – Jn 10:4-5

The Holy Spirit does NOT let an individual remain ignorant of the gospel after regeneration. Immediately upon regeneration an individual is given the knowledge of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel.

“16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” – Ro 1:16-17

Those who are regenerate believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ. They understand how God is just to justify the ungodly based on the work of Jesus Christ alone TOTALLY apart from the sinners efforts (Ro 3:20-28). They KNOW the true and living God of heaven. If someone professes a false gospel, such as “universal atonement”, then they do NOT know the true God of the Bible. They do NOT believe that the only difference between salvation and damnation is the work of Christ on the cross alone, because they believe that the work of Christ was for everyone in the entire world! All of God’s regenerate elect KNOW the true God, and believe the gospel.

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” – Jn 17:3

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.” – Ro 6:17

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." – 1Cor 12:3

Think carefully about that last verse.

“3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” – 2Cor 4:3-6

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.” – 1Jn 5:20.

-jonas Jonas, by speaking of various cults, you are failing to differ between faiths that are altogether unchristian and faiths which are basically Christian, but ignorant of the doctrines of grace. I can't in good conscience fail to make that distinction. It is too far a stretch to link cults with any Christian denomination that proclaims Christ to be the resurrected Son of God. The work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration is really the determiner of who is and who is not a true Christian, and His regenerating work instills fulness of life, but not fulness of understanding. There are some who are babes. I can only agree with you that those who harden theri hearts against the doctrines of grace when they have been accurately informed of them are still in unbelief. An Arminian chnirian may hesitate over the doctrines of grace, may take a studious pause concerning them, but I believe that if they are truly Christian they will rejoice inwardly even if guardedly for awhile.

[Bob Moore]

I absolutely believe the GOSPEL. I have NO ERROR in relation to the gospel.

Then you have some things to learn. Chiefly, the price of pride.

I will stand before God being justified by God given FAITH, which faith professes, that God has promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts. I know that I am saved because of the work of Jesus Christ alone for His people alone.-jonas

Sincerely, good for you. But if you claim you have no error, you err greatly.

[jonas3]

I absolutely believe the GOSPEL. I have NO ERROR in relation to the gospel.
Sincerely, good for you. But if you claim you have no error, you err greatly.

"Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:" - Ps 95:10 (Heb 3:10)

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." - Mat 22:29

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." - Jn 17:3

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost" - 2Cor 4:3


"2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." - Ro 10:2-4

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" - 2Th 1:8

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - 1Jn 5:20


"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." - 2Jn 1:9

-jonas

[Bob Moore]

"Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:" - Ps 95:10 (Heb 3:10)

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." - Mat 22:29

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." - Jn 17:3

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost" - 2Cor 4:3


"2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." - Ro 10:2-4

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" - 2Th 1:8

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - 1Jn 5:20


"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." - 2Jn 1:9

-jonas


I absolutely believe the GOSPEL. I have NO ERROR in relation to the gospel.

You quote all those excellent scriptures, yet you still claim that you have no error with regard to the Gospel.

Incredible.

But perhaps your choice of words was just poor, for certainly you do err with regard to the gospel.

[inchristalone221]

What I DID say, which you got right 1/3 of the time, was that no Arminian is PRESENTLY saved (i.e. regenerate), which is a big difference. I am not saying that all Arminians are certainly going to hell, because Christian’s do not judge the eternal state of anyone. What I am saying is that NO Arminian is PRESENTLY saved (i.e. regenerate). In fact, NO ONE is PRESENTLY saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing in a false gospel. Look at it this way.

What is the requirement for one to be regenerate? It is the inward work of the holy spirit as expressed through the outward action of faith in the substitutionary atonement of the cross.

I believe it is possible Arminian doctrine in its extreme may give reason to "stand in doubt" of their salvation, but it is impious to make such a dogmatic declaration...please refrain.

[jonas3]

But perhaps your choice of words was just poor, for certainly you do err with regard to the gospel.

How do I err with regard to the gospel? Please share.

-jonas

[Bob Moore]

How do I err with regard to the gospel? Please share.

-jonas

Let us consider your statement that with regard to the gospel that you have NO ERROR (caps original with you).

So you pretend to perfect knowledge and performance of the gospel. The very idea is outrageous and is a clear proof of ignorance.

[jonas3]

Let us consider your statement that with regard to the gospel that you have NO ERROR (caps original with you).

So you pretend to perfect knowledge and performance of the gospel. The very idea is outrageous and is a clear proof of ignorance.

So, because I say that I believe the gospel, and have no error in relation to the gospel, this is evidence that I do not believe the gospel (i.e. proof of my ignorance)? Do you have any Scriptural evidence to support this claim? Do you have any Scriptural evidence to support this notion that not all Christians believe the gospel? Also, do you have any evidence (other than circular) to prove that I actually do not believe the gospel?

Also, what do you mean by prefect, "performance of the gospel". I did not use those words. Please explain?

Last question, are saying is that you do have error in relation to the gospel?

-jonas

[Bob Moore]

So, because I say that I believe the gospel, and have no error in relation to the gospel, this is evidence that I do not believe the gospel (i.e. proof of my ignorance)? Do you have any Scriptural evidence to support this claim? Do you have any Scriptural evidence to support this notion that not all Christians believe the gospel? Also, do you have any evidence (other than circular) to prove that I actually do not believe the gospel?

Also, what do you mean by prefect, "performance of the gospel". I did not use those words. Please explain?

Last question, are saying is that you do have error in relation to the gospel?

-jonas

Talking to you is like talking to a wall. Pointless. Finis.

[frumanchu]

jonas, do you maintain that an Arminian who believes agrees they "stand before God being justified by God given faith, which faith professes, that God has promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts" will not be saved?

Also, do you believe that one must agree with all five soteriological points of Calvinism in this lifetime in order to be saved?

[jonas3]

jonas, do you maintain that an Arminian who believes agrees they "stand before God being justified by God given faith, which faith professes, that God has promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts" will not be saved?

Arminians do not believe this. Do I have to articulate it again?

Also, do you believe that one must agree with all five soteriological points of Calvinism in this lifetime in order to be saved?

I never said or implied that anything was necessary for salvation. I never said that a person had to believe in anything "in order to be saved". In fact, my entire position is that true faith believes that NOTHING is required for salvation; therefore, faith by definition (i.e. belief in certain doctrines) cannot be a prerequisite for salvation. No one is saved by their soteriological understanding; however, those who are saved absolutely believe and understand the gospel, as it is written, "15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." - Mk 16:15-16. Those who are damned do not believe what? They do not believe THE GOSPEL. There are certain things that all regenerate Christians believe. Your accusation is false and hypocritical. Would you say that a person can be saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing that Jesus is not God? Now, is believing that Jesus is God necessary for salvation? No. However, do all regenerate people (i.e. Christians) believe that Jesus is God? Yes. Do you see the difference? There is a knowledge that is given to an individual immediately upon regeneration by the Holy Spirit. They are given faith, which faith professes a belief in the gospel, thus they are given a knowledge of the gospel. They are given an understanding of the true God, Jesus Christ, and they are given an understanding of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel (Ro 1:16-17), because those who are ignorant of God's righteousness are lost (Ro 10:2-3).

-jonas

[frumanchu]

Arminians do not believe this. Do I have to articulate it again?

I know of many Arminians who believe they are justified by God-given faith and that God justifies His people based solely upon the expiation of their sins and imputation of Christ's righteousness. Now, I may disagree that they properly understand the full implications of what that entails, but it is a matter of inconsistency and not willful rejection.

I never said or implied that anything was necessary for salvation. I never said that a person had to believe in anything "in order to be saved". In fact, my entire position is that true faith believes that NOTHING is required for salvation; therefore, faith by definition (i.e. belief in certain doctrines) cannot be a prerequisite for salvation. No one is saved by their soteriological understanding; however, those who are saved absolutely believe and understand the gospel, as it is written, "15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." - Mk 16:15-16. Those who are damned do not believe what? They do not believe THE GOSPEL.

What you seem to be saying is that faith is not in any way a cause of salvation but only an effect of it. Is this correct?

There are certain things that all regenerate Christians believe.

I agree, but I believe you and I differ on the specifics of what those things necessarily are.

Your accusation is false and hypocritical. Would you say that a person can be saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing that Jesus is not God? Now, is believing that Jesus is God necessary for salvation? No. However, do all regenerate people (i.e. Christians) believe that Jesus is God? Yes. Do you see the difference?

I made no accusation against you. The error you are making here is in the proper relationship of correct knowledge of essentials with salvation.

There is a knowledge that is given to an individual immediately upon regeneration by the Holy Spirit. They are given faith, which faith professes a belief in the gospel, thus they are given a knowledge of the gospel. They are given an understanding of the true God, Jesus Christ, and they are given an understanding of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel (Ro 1:16-17), because those who are ignorant of God's righteousness are lost (Ro 10:2-3).

The error you have here is in arguing that man is saved (justified) prior to faith rather than being saved by (or through) faith. Furthermore, you are missing the point that you are claiming that all regenerate persons necessarily fully understand and profess the Reformed soteriological view as a result of their salvation, and thus the absence of full understanding and profession of the Reformed soteriological view among Arminians indicates a lack of salvation.

It appears based upon what you've said that you are incorrectly diminishing the role of faith in salvation and at the same time elevating soteriological views to the level of necessity with respect to salvation.

[inchristalone221]

Do you have any Scriptural evidence to support this notion that not all Christians believe the gospel?

Are you equating Calvinism with the gospel? Come on man, I'm as Calvinist as they get and even I won't go THAT far.

[Cajun Huguenot]

Now, for apostasy:
1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?
2. If "Yes," then this is against what Calvinists teach.
3. If "No," then was he deceived?
4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?

As this is questions for Calvinists, I only expect answers and arguments from Calvinists.:thumbsup:

Hello Monergism,

I did not take the time to read all the responses to your questions (time restraints), but I do want to put in my two cents.

I think the only way to rightly understand the 5 point of the five points of Calvinism is covenantally. If you read a good bit of Calvin you will see that he clearly (rightly) believed in the perseverance of the saints, but at the same time he took the warnings in the New Testament against apostasy fey seriously.

On of the reasons many Calvinist today struggle with the notion of apostasy is many Calvinists confusion the modern Baptist notion of "once saved-always saved" (OSAS) with the true Calvinist position of perseverance. I believe that is because many Calvinists have ceased to understand these things from a Covenantal perspective. We have become individualists (i.e. baptistic) in our thinking and not covenantalists (that is Reformed).

In Calvin's Strasburg Catechism for young Children (http://www.joelgarver.com/writ/hist/calvin.htm)in the first questions he asks the child these questions:

Teacher: My child, are you a Christian in fact as well as in name?
Child: Yes, my father.
Teacher: How is this known to you?
Child: Because I am baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

All who are baptised are in Covenant, and are part of the outward people of God. The Bible is written to these people. Are they all regenerate? No, some may be in the Church (which is the body of Christ) and therefore a branch that is connected to the true vine.

These people are covenantally attached to Christ, but if they do not persevere in faith iv they do not work out their salvation in fear and trembling they will be cut off. It was the same Old Covenant Israel.

The problem with OSAS is that it does not take the many warning of apostasy seriously, but the Calvinistic doctrine of perverance does. Perseverance is biblical OSAS is not.

Don't misunderstand me. All who are elect, before the foundation of the world, will persevere, but the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are written to God's Covenant people. They are all, at some point, His people though many of them may not know Him in faith and if they do not come to faith and persevere in faith they will be cut off from the covenant, they will be branches broken off of the true vine (which they were attached to covenantally) and cast into the fire.

So much for my two cents on this subject.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

[Bob Moore]

The error you have here is in arguing that man is saved (justified) prior to faith rather than being saved by (or through) faith.

Prior to God's effectual call man can not possess saving faith because he is spiritually dead in sins and trespasses. Therefore, before a man can express genuine faith in any way God has already saved him. In other words, faith follows salvation. It does not precede it.

Furthermore, you are missing the point that you are claiming that all regenerate persons necessarily fully understand and profess the Reformed soteriological view as a result of their salvation, and thus the absence of full understanding and profession of the Reformed soteriological view among Arminians indicates a lack of salvation.

Excellent. Too many people think that saving faith automatically carries with it a complete (more or less) understanding of it's nature.


It appears based upon what you've said that you are incorrectly diminishing the role of faith in salvation and at the same time elevating soteriological views to the level of necessity with respect to salvation.

Yep. It sure looks like it.

[Bob Moore]

The problem with OSAS is that it does not take the many warning of apostasy seriously, but the Calvinistic doctrine of perverance does. Perseverance is biblical OSAS is not.

But Cajun, The two are the same thing.

[GrinningDwarf]

But Cajun, The two are the same thing.

I don't think so, Bob.

Seems to me that most non-Calvinists who believe in OSAS see it that "I said a prayer and was truely repentant; therefore God won't let me fall." These folks still see faith as preceding regeneration.

Perseverance is more like "God changed me first and then I chose Him, and God never fails!!" The idea of regeneration preceding faith is essential for an acurate view of perseverance.

[Cajun Huguenot]

But Cajun, The two are the same thing.

Hey Bob,

Thanks for the comments, but I have to say that I'm with Grinning Dwarf on this one, and don't believe they are the same at all, though I can see how folks can make that mistake. I used to see it that way at one time also, but have come to see things differently as I've studied Covenant theology.

There are many Covenant folk who believe you are correct, but I think they are mistaken. OSAS is a ticket to easy believism. Perseverance of the Saints (PS) will will not allow for easy believism to creep or slither into the our thinking.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

Ps. Happy birthday. Or as the Cajun's say "Bon Fete."

[jonas3]

First Bob Moore says this,

Prior to God's effectual call man can not possess saving faith because he is spiritually dead in sins and trespasses. Therefore, before a man can express genuine faith in any way God has already saved him. In other words, faith follows salvation. It does not precede it.

Then Bob Moore says this,

Excellent. Too many people think that saving faith automatically carries with it a complete (more or less) understanding of it's nature.

Are you saying that after God gives a person saving faith they still might not believe the gospel?

-jonas

[Cajun Huguenot]

Are you saying that after God gives a person saving faith they still might not believe the gospel?

-jonas

Jonas,

Having an intellectual grasp of God's absolute sovereignty in Salvation (as well as other matters) is not equivellent to believing the Gospel.

That is the warped understanding of the Gospel that you and your small sect concocted from thin air. By Your standard (not the Scriptures), as I have pointed out before, only yall's little sect is saved.

By your standard Calvin was not saved (which y'all seem to have only recently figured out) neither were most, if not all of the other Reformers. Y'all have already said that Reformed stalwarts like AW Pink, AA Hodge, CH Spurgeon, etc..., et al,... ad nauseum:o -- were not saved unless they converted to your position as they lay dying.

Jonas, I've been reading the Church Fathers and have discovered that by your standard it does not appear that any one in the early church was saved either.

So no one in the early Church, no one in the Reformation and no post reformation Arminians and few if any post Reformation Calvinists have been saved. I guess you and your little group is all that the Lord has seen fit to save in the past 2,000 years. (Don't you see any thing wrong with this picture?)

I'm glad that after 2000 years of the Church preaching a false Gospel, you and your friends have come on the scene to finally get the truth out there.

Hummm. That sounds like the claim that every cult I have ever looked into has claimed for itself. I think you are in very bad company. You should see red flags everywhere.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

[Bob Moore]

I don't think so, Bob.

Seems to me that most non-Calvinists who believe in OSAS see it that "I said a prayer and was truely repentant; therefore God won't let me fall." These folks still see faith as preceding regeneration.

You are right. Lot's of people think that. But they are dead wrong about it. Regeneration preceeds faith for the patently simple reason that those who are dead have no ability to revive themselves. And the idea that just being repentant and saying a prayer guarantees eternal salvation is laughable. I have seen it happen time and again that attritive repentance is mistaken for contritive, and false assurance built upon it.


Perseverance is more like "God changed me first and then I chose Him, and God never fails!!"

That is effectual calling, not perserverance. But perserverance will always follow the effectual call. In effect OSAS is a natural consequence of the call, therefore I say that they are the same because you can not have one without the other.

The idea of regeneration preceding faith is essential for an acurate view of perseverance.


Yessir.

[Bob Moore]

First Bob Moore says this,
Prior to God's effectual call man can not possess saving faith because he is spiritually dead in sins and trespasses. Therefore, before a man can express genuine faith in any way God has already saved him. In other words, faith follows salvation. It does not precede it.

Then Bob Moore says this,

Excellent. Too many people think that saving faith automatically carries with it a complete (more or less) understanding of it's nature.

Are you saying that after God gives a person saving faith they still might not believe the gospel?

-jonas


God forbid! How did you get that idea out of what I said? Let me put it another way. Possession of saving faith does not carry with it a complete theological understanding of the nature of faith. If it did we would not be commanded to "Study to show thyself approved".

[jonas3]

God forbid! How did you get that idea out of what I said? Let me put it another way. Possession of saving faith does not carry with it a complete theological understanding of the nature of faith. If it did we would not be commanded to "Study to show thyself approved".

I apologize for misrepresenting you. So you do believe that a person with saving faith believes the gospel. That's good. Now, could you define what a "complete theological understanding of the nature of faith" entails? I'm trying to figure out what you mean when you say this. It's very vague. What are you trying to say that a person who has saving faith might not understand exactly in regards to that faith?

-jonas

[Bob Moore]

I apologize for misrepresenting you.

No need to apologize for a simple misunderstanding.

So you do believe that a person with saving faith believes the gospel. That's good. Now, could you define what a "complete theological understanding of the nature of faith" entails? I'm trying to figure out what you mean when you say this. It's very vague. What are you trying to say that a person who has saving faith might not understand exactly in regards to that faith?

-jonas

All I mean is that at the instant of salvation, when a lost sinner receives the gift of saving faith, he will not have detailed knowledge of the in's and out's of grace. He will believe the Gospel absolutely, but that is just the start of his journey. For example, he probably will know nothing about the idea of the first Adam and the last Adam. That knowledge comes from diligent study. It is analogous to signing up for a course of instruction at a school. The new Christian is a true freshman with much to learn.