It only stands to reason

[ORS]

As my wife and I have tried to honestly wrestle through Calvinism she made the comment after reading Spurgeon's (who we love) defense of limited atonemnet, she said "It Only Stands To Reason seem to preface every leap away from the bounds that scripture puts on these thoughts." As I thought about this, I found eery time a man attempts to tie the TULIP into a neat bow, they need to preface "It only stands to reason" in front of those areas they leap off into the abyss of fallen man's reasoning. Reform theology always draws people of astounding intellect; however, it seems to turn into a man worshiping event instead of worshiping the astounding God of Calvin and Luther...we are all prone to disconnect from our only source of power (i.e., the Word) and connect our minds and thoughts to mens thoughts (where there is much truth but little to no power). It's all so subtle!

[Jon_]

"It only stands to reason" that "reason" means reason and not purple. "It only stands to reason" that "truth" means truth and not false. "It only stands to reason" that "God" is God and not a ham sandwich.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[reformedfan]

it only stands to reason that if Jesus died for everyone there'd be no hell.

it only stands to reason that we are either completely unable to save ourselves & dead in our sins or we're fine & dandy.

it only stands to reason that God either elects us based on the pleasure of His good will, or there is something appealing about a buncha dead in their sins types.

it only stands to reason that if Jesus died for everyone there'd be no hell.

it only stands ta reason that God has to draw us to Himself, cuz on our own we tend to not be inclined that way.

it only stands ta reason that if salvation is entirely a work of the Trinity, then there is nothing for us to 'lose'

it only stands to reason that all that came from the Bible, as God's ways are so much higher than our ways that no mere man coulda (or weven woulda, for that matter) come up with those unman-centric points of grace/ not works on his own.

yeah, thanx for pointing out how logical & Biblically consistant TULIP is, it only stands to reason after all....

[CoffeeSwirls]

It only stands to reason that God would force man to come before Him on His terms and not ours. If we had our way, we would be wrong and all would be saved. If we had our way, man would not be inclined to reject God and would naturally want to choose Him. God would have atoned for all and evangelism would not be subject to the moving of God.

Heck, if we had our way, God would be taken right out of the picture until it came time to receive our vast rewards!

Isaiah 48:11
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.

[frumanchu]

As my wife and I have tried to honestly wrestle through Calvinism she made the comment after reading Spurgeon's (who we love) defense of limited atonemnet, she said "It Only Stands To Reason seem to preface every leap away from the bounds that scripture puts on these thoughts." As I thought about this, I found eery time a man attempts to tie the TULIP into a neat bow, they need to preface "It only stands to reason" in front of those areas they leap off into the abyss of fallen man's reasoning. Reform theology always draws people of astounding intellect; however, it seems to turn into a man worshiping event instead of worshiping the astounding God of Calvin and Luther...we are all prone to disconnect from our only source of power (i.e., the Word) and connect our minds and thoughts to mens thoughts (where there is much truth but little to no power). It's all so subtle!

People use logic to understand Scripture. It is the way we work. Are we not to accept the "reasonable" explanations the Scripture gives us? Or should we be driven by emotion to the point of irrationality?

Reason alone cannot save us, but the anti-intellectualism that tries to trump rational theology with emotion and experience is itself a deception intended to draw men away from the truth and hinder their fruitfulness.

[reformedfan]

Did you guys get the chance to read this?


People use logic to understand Scripture. It is the way we work. Are we not to accept the "reasonable" explanations the Scripture gives us? Or should we be driven by emotion to the point of irrationality?

Reason alone cannot save us, but the anti-intellectualism that tries to trump rational theology with emotion and experience is itself a deception intended to draw men away from the truth and hinder their fruitfulness.

[Godzchild]

It only stands to reason that it's quite possible that man's theology could be flawed.

[Foundthelight]

It only stands to reason that we try to label and pigeonhole everything. Then in our wisdom we say that we understand it.

[tigersnare]

It only stands to reason that it's quite possible that man's theology could be flawed.

Sure, yet it also stands to reason that God will do what he said he would do in and through his spirit; illuminate the minds of his people throughout the ages. Surely man has some idea what the true gospel message is. We can't just throw out any hope of actually understanding the scriptures, do we not have the Spirit's guidance?

[seekingpurity047]

Isaiah 1:18

"Come now, let us reason[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%201:18&version=47#fen-ESV-17670a)] together, says the LORD:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.

God.... loves reason! w00t!

[Godzchild]

Sure, yet it also stands to reason that God will do what he said he would do in and through his spirit; illuminate the minds of his people throughout the ages. Surely man has some idea what the true gospel message is. We can't just throw out any hope of actually understanding the scriptures, do we not have the Spirit's guidance?

But every believer has this guidance but not every believer believes the same thing.

[tigersnare]

But every believer has this guidance but not every believer believes the same thing.

Well don't confuse every believer having been given the Holy Spirit, with every believer having the sames abilities to interpret scripture. For instance, what do Calvin, Edwards and Augustine have that I don't? How about shear brilliance for one....I'm not saying the Spirit makes void our own God given attributes and talents.

[Godzchild]

Does one need to be brilliant to understand the basic concepts of the written word?

[Jon_]

Does one need to be brilliant to understand the basic concepts of the written word?
Absolutely not. The Holy Spirit makes plain those things that the Father desires us to know.

What you have to remember is that the Holy Spirit does not illuminate us apart from the Scripture. We have to read the Scripture in order to receive the illumination of the Holy Spirit. I really do not think that you have to be highly intelligent to understand the finer points of the Bible. I firmly believe that the average person can be a brilliant theologian. The only problem is that the average person just does not desire to spend the time and effort at building up this knowledge. They would rather do other things than spend hours of their day reading the Bible and the writings of past theologians. This is really the thing that sets some of the more brilliant men of the past apart from the common man. It was not necessarily their intelligence, but it was their dedication to the word.
(Heb. 11:6 AV) And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Godzchild]

Absolutely not. The Holy Spirit makes plain those things that the Father desires us to know.



What you have to remember is that the Holy Spirit does not illuminate us apart from the Scripture. We have to read the Scripture in order to receive the illumination of the Holy Spirit. I really do not think that you have to be highly intelligent to understand the finer points of the Bible. I firmly believe that the average person can be a brilliant theologian. The only problem is that the average person just does not desire to spend the time and effort at building up this knowledge. They would rather do other things than spend hours of their day reading the Bible and the writings of past theologians. This is really the thing that sets some of the more brilliant men of the past apart from the common man. It was not necessarily their intelligence, but it was their dedication to the word.(Heb. 11:6 AV) And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.


Soli Deo Gloria


Jon

Maybe the reason that some don't "desire to spend the time and effort at building up this knowledge. They would rather do other things than spend hours of their day reading the Bible and the writings of past theologians." as you say is because.....

John 5:39-40 - You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these [very Scriptures] testify about Me! And still you are not willing [but refuse] to come to Me, so that you might have life. .

[reformedfan]

I firmly believe that the average person can be a brilliant theologian. The only problem is that the average person just does not desire to spend the time and effort at building up this knowledge. They would rather do other things than spend hours of their day reading the Bible and the writings of past theologians. This is really the thing that sets some of the more brilliant men of the past apart from the common man. It was not necessarily their intelligence, but it was their dedication to the word.
Jon


BB Warfield thinks this, too.

[tigersnare]

Absolutely not. The Holy Spirit makes plain those things that the Father desires us to know.

What you have to remember is that the Holy Spirit does not illuminate us apart from the Scripture. We have to read the Scripture in order to receive the illumination of the Holy Spirit. I really do not think that you have to be highly intelligent to understand the finer points of the Bible. I firmly believe that the average person can be a brilliant theologian. The only problem is that the average person just does not desire to spend the time and effort at building up this knowledge. They would rather do other things than spend hours of their day reading the Bible and the writings of past theologians. This is really the thing that sets some of the more brilliant men of the past apart from the common man. It was not necessarily their intelligence, but it was their dedication to the word.(Heb. 11:6 AV) And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Well I was referring to the question of "why don't two people always come to the same conclusion when reading scripture, if they are both illuminated by the holy Spirit". If we are throwing in variables such as reading writings of past theologians the argument changes completely.

If given enough commentaries and diligent study perhaps the average man could be a brilliant theologian. But I don't think just given his bible the average man can be a brilliant theologian. I agree that diligence is important, however I would disagree that shear intellectual giftedness does not play a large role.

[reformedfan]

nah.

God speaks to diff people differently thru His word.

& anyway, BB Warfield sez it's the Holy Spirit that guides understanding, (he had a verse to support that statement, he wasn't just stating hunches) therefore, anyone can be a brilliant theologian if they read & study their Bible diligently.

[Jon_]

If given enough commentaries and diligent study perhaps the average man could be a brilliant theologian. But I don't think just given his bible the average man can be a brilliant theologian. I agree that diligence is important, however I would disagree that shear intellectual giftedness does not play a large role.
Whence comes intellectual giftedness but from God?

The point that many highly intelligent people are completely idiots with regard to the Scripture and many people of unremarkable intelligence are amazing biblical scholars only reinforces God's sovereignty so much more in this way. God chooses those that will represent him. He will not be denied his remnant, but will choose "from the least of these" that will defend his word and receive his Son.

The Holy Spirit can and does illuminate even the darkest of minds and brings knowledge of truth to even the densest of heads. We know this is true because we see plenty of highly intelligent atheists that refuse to accept the basic truths of God's word and many very unintelligent people among God's sheep. What then shall we conclude? That it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[edb19]

Whence comes intellectual giftedness but from God?

The point that many highly intelligent people are completely idiots with regard to the Scripture and many people of unremarkable intelligence are amazing biblical scholars only reinforces God's sovereignty so much more in this way. God chooses those that will represent him. He will not be denied his remnant, but will choose "from the least of these" that will defend his word and receive his Son.

The Holy Spirit can and does illuminate even the darkest of minds and brings knowledge of truth to even the densest of heads. We know this is true because we see plenty of highly intelligent atheists that refuse to accept the basic truths of God's word and many very unintelligent people among God's sheep. What then shall we conclude? That it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Makes sense - consider minds like Stephen Hawking or Carl Sagan. These men (and others) study the vastness of God's universe, yet they ignore natural revelation and refuse to see Him. Then think about many of the leaders of reformed theology, for example John Bunyan or Charles Spurgeon. These men were from humble beginnings, did not have the benefit of seminary teaching yet they continue to influence Christians >100 years after their deaths.

[tigersnare]

Whence comes intellectual giftedness but from God?

The point that many highly intelligent people are completely idiots with regard to the Scripture and many people of unremarkable intelligence are amazing biblical scholars only reinforces God's sovereignty so much more in this way. God chooses those that will represent him. He will not be denied his remnant, but will choose "from the least of these" that will defend his word and receive his Son.

The Holy Spirit can and does illuminate even the darkest of minds and brings knowledge of truth to even the densest of heads. We know this is true because we see plenty of highly intelligent atheists that refuse to accept the basic truths of God's word and many very unintelligent people among God's sheep. What then shall we conclude? That it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Eh, this changes the argument again. Now you are talking about the converted vs the unconverted and who sees what in scripture. The original argument again was, at least what I thought it was, was why do two christians read their bibles and come to different conclusions if they are both illuminated by the holy Spirit.

[Jon_]

Eh, this changes the argument again. Now you are talking about the converted vs the unconverted and who sees what in scripture. The original argument again was, at least what I thought it was, was why do two christians read their bibles and come to different conclusions if they are both illuminated by the holy Spirit.
It only changes the argument if you think the dynamic of human understanding is somehow different after conversion than it is before. I contend that it is not. Human understanding is as much a gift of God to the unconverted as it is to the converted. I have not seen any verses that lead to any other conclusion. In fact, there seems to be many that oppose it.
(2 Co. 4:6 AV) For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

(Eph. 3:19 AV) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

(Php. 2:13 AV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Jon_]

I guess I should draw out the inference, as well. My argument above concludes that the Holy Spirit does not equally illuminate all men. God is pleased to reveal his scriptural truth to those that he does. Likewise, he is pleased to withhold his truth from even those that seek it. These things the Lord does for his own purposes that he might be glorified through the fulfillment of his will.

A good general rule to apply when asking the question, "Why is something the way it is?" is to answer, "God wants it that way." ;)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon