Once saved always saved...Biblical?

[JKnappGirl]

Do you believe in the before stated theory? If so, can you give me a few Bible verses that back your beliefs up?

[ZoneChaos]

My beleif is not based upon any verse in the Bible, but rather it is base upon this:

If a person knows the truth, how can they then accept anything else?

[JKnappGirl]

But what if they were somehow convinced otherwise? Does that mean they were never Christians?http://www.plauder-smilies.de/sad/confusedpp.gif

[Josephus]

I believe we have defined "saved" to be something it really isn't. It's like the cake without the icing:

we take salvation to mean simply accepting what Jesus did for us as payment for our sin. But I also believe we are forgetting the most important aspect of it: making Jesus Lord of our lives.

If Jesus isn't the Lord of your life, then you have something else in His place - and that's sadly the sin of idolatry and pride. Until you have sought to make Jesus Lord of your life, your salvation can only rest on the mere hope that you have said the right prayer. God isn't looking for symantics or how you say something, or whether or not you believe in your heart. Belief is only half of the equation of Faith. Abraham wasn't credited righteousness until God saw in his heart the "will" for obedience backed by a promise. It is about relationship - not words. Works also without the faith God is looking for is also hopeless.

God requires in us a birthing of something in our heart that can only be described as "the new man" - the righteous person of the "born again" experience which the bible clarifies as someone who has both made Jesus Savior AND Lord of their lives.

So, can you lose your salvation? Jesus said it himself: no one can serve two masters. Either you will serve the one and hate the other.

If you make something else in your life replace Jesus on the throne of your heart, and you die with that still there, then whoever is Master on the throne of your heart will be the one that represents you before God at Judgement Day. I want my Master and representative to be Jesus.

[LouisBooth]

JKgirl...yes

"none shall snach them from my hand"

[PrincessTracy]

Yes once saved always saved is biblical.

John 6:40
"For my Father's will is that everyne who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 10:28-29
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

Do you think that if a rock had fell on Peter right after denying Jesus that he would have went to hell? Do you think that the most loyal of the Lord's followers, if he/she were to slip up and say a curse word as they wreck and die that they will go to hell after their loyalty to the Lord all their reborn life?

I believe people that claim to have been a Christian that now claim not to be are one of two things: 1. Either they never really knew the Lord to begin with, or 2. They are a wayward child of God.

I honestly don't believe that you can turn your salvation on and off like a light switch. There are so many Christians that I know (particularly new Christians) that are afraid they will "loose" their salvation. The bible says to be saved is to be dead to the old man and raise a new creature, does that mean we can choose to resurrect the old creature? Christians aren't sinless, we sin less, that's from walking with the Lord. But all have sinned and fallen short. None of use can be what Jesus was and is. If we were able to live perfect lives Jesus would not have had to live a perfect sinless life and die a torturous death for us.

I think the whole idea of "loosing ones salvation" is a tool of the enemy to keep us chasing our tails instead of doing the work the Lord would have us to be doing. The Lord is strong even when we are weak. How can we tell others about His strength and greatness if we don't believe Him even strong enough to keep us as His, after we have freely given ourselves to Him?

Do you believe in absolute truths? If not, maybe you should be reconsidering if you honestly believe in the Lord. If so, how can you question God's greatest gift and truth?

Ummm I get little passionate about this ;)

In Christ's Love,
Tracy

[LouisBooth]

Exactly tracy, we don't loose and regain our salvation. That was the verse I was eluding to, the one from John chapter 10. What we do see in the bible though is we can be "neutralized" as a "fighter" in God's spiritual army and become a "useless" Christian. Just thinking about this logically....Okay can we loose our salvation, loosing it means we don't have the power to keep it by whatever means it is "kept" so that implies either 1. lack of power on our part or 2. lack of power on God's part. Okay, its not 2 :lol: since God is omnipotent. So it would have to be number 1, but since salvation is God given then we don't control us keeping it or loosing it since it is God's to give. Hence, once salvation is given it cannot be lost, that would limit God, and he has no limits.

[Josephus]

God is the perfect judge of our hearts.

We hear some people making the argument that OSAS gives people the right to do whatever they want after they are saved. But why is it the bible, Jesus, and the apostle warn believers not to sin?

Would a saved person have the free will to reject their salvation if they no longer wanted God or to ever be with God?

Now, I don't believe you have to work for your salvation, but I do believe that if you freely choose to reject Him, you are putting yourself out of the salvation boat and back into the ocean that will one day be swallowed up to eternal death - and I do believe God is the perfect judge of this (which is why if you don't want to lose your salvation - you won't because you are in effect still desiring to be with God, which is not rejection of Him and is in fact a desire to make Him Lord of your life, even if you do slip up.) But I'm talking about the possibility of losing your salvation due to a lack of making Jesus Lord of your life. :)

Remember Paul gave up certain members of the church to Satan - even though they were believers. Judas was a follower and no doubt a believer in Jesus, but his fate is worse than what we could ever see. You see, it was Peter that repented that night, while Judas hung on a tree.

One still had Jesus as Lord of their life; the other went down though in remorse, but not in repentence: and it was that cry of unrighteous sinful pride in that Jesus was no longer Lord of his life that turned that man's fate completely around to where it could have gone. There was nothing on the throne of that man's heart that any more resembled the One true God. It was indeed, himself that sat on it.

Tell me what you think.

[LouisBooth]

"But why is it the bible, Jesus, and the apostle warn believers not to sin?"

I think Paul said that quite nicely in I think it was galatians...should we sin more that grace abounds more..nope....we can't loose it but if we sin more then that destroies our witness and what love is all about. Love CANNOT be show in sin. :)

"Remember Paul gave up certain members of the church to Satan - even though they were believers. Judas was a follower and no doubt a believer in Jesus, but his fate is worse than what we could ever see. "

But where they really christians should be the question.....;)

[Schrack]

Hello all,

I am new to this forum but I'm going to jump right on in instead of just wade in the water.

The simple answer to the question of this thread is, yes, once a person has been saved by God he is eternally the child of God. There are various biblical texts that adequately support this but the one I believe is most convincing can be found in Romans 6:6-11.

It is clear from these verses that the apostle was teaching 1) the old man is dead in Christ; 2) the purpose of this death is a deliverance (salvation) from the old man, i.e. from serving sin; 3) if one is dead with Christ, he is told by the apostle that he should also believe that he will live with Christ; 4) Christ died unto sin once and cannot die again, as he is raised from the dead and alive unto God, and thus the believer is told to think of himself in the same way.

Consequently, if one is alive from the dead through Christ, it is impossible for him to die again inasmuch as it is impossible for Jesus to die a second time. "Because I live, ye shall live also," was the promise of Jesus. And his promise stands despite any who might wish to believe to the contrary.

Now Josephus above wrote: "I don't believe you have to work for your salvation, but I do believe that if you freely choose to reject Him, you are putting yourself out of the salvation boat and back into the ocean that will one day be swallowed up to eternal death."

Although I would concur with Josephus' statement that salvation is not by works, I would have to disagree with his theory that one can somehow jump out of the Good Shepherd's hands for the simple reason that Jesus said "No man can pluck them out of my hand," and I take "no man" to mean not even one's self.

But even if this were to be argued, then I would appeal to the fact that this can be answered in another way by virtue of the example where Jesus already had certain "disciples" who turned back from following him. And of these so-called disciples the Lord clearly labeled them as unbelievers (Jn. 6:64) and not believers. Jesus even validated this by saying "Therefore said I unto you that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him by the Father" (6:65). It is not hard to see in John's Gospel that although many followed Christ, they did not always do so because they actually accepted him as their Messiah. Many times there were alterior motives (6:26). Even so it is today, and they are not hard to recognize.

I believe that the apostle John learned very well from this experience, and applied the same truth to those who had abandoned the faith later on during his ministry (1 Jn. 2:19). And so for me the argument that one can jump ship and therefore lose his salvation really becomes a case of one never having salvation to begin with.

SchracktheBaptist

[PrincessTracy]

Amen!

[Josephus]

"And so for me the argument that one can jump ship and therefore lose his salvation really becomes a case of one never having salvation to begin with."

Which is precisely why I began with defining what salvation is as apparently those people whom are "never having salvation to begin with" don't know what it really means to be saved. :) Salvation is recieving what Jesus did for you at the cross, but this humble and repentent submission to that mercy is proved by the fact you make Jesus Lord of your life, as James talked about working out your faith: in essence seeing fruit produced in your life as evidence of your faith. This is the full definition of salvation (saved by what Jesus did, proved by what we do) not only making Jesus Savior of your life, but also Lord of it. If Jesus was the Lord of Judas' life, he would have repented, like Peter. But since Judas could only claim salvation, but didn't make Jesus Lord of his life, he in a sense was one "never having salvation to begin with." I hope this is a little more clear to others on where I was comming from. :) I believe that once you've made Jesus Lord of your life, "losing" your salvation becomes impossible and never an issue.

The other point I raised was an unstated question I will state here: is it possible for someone to no longer make Jesus the Lord of their life - or when you make Jesus the Lord of your life, does he forever claim you as His own, never giving up that throne in your heart - even though you may stray away from that throne? I'd be interested to hear a biblical perspective on this. :)

[Schrack]

Josephus,

My response here deals mainly with the semantics of your post, but I am wondering if the semantics are the result of a bit of confusion on your part as to what the Bible teaches about the Lordship of Christ.

I believe the Scriptures are clear that no one, not even you or me, "makes" Jesus Lord of our lives. In Acts 2 Peter tells us that "God hath made him both Lord and Christ". So Jesus is Lord not because we make him or even confess him to be, but because that is already who he is. Jesus is, as Paul said, "Lord of all," and as John said, "King of kings, and Lord of lords." Thus, when a person repents and believes on Christ, he is merely confessing that which he had not acknowledged before; namely, that Jesus is the Lord. Remember Paul's conversion? "Who art thou, Lord?...Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" Consequently, in salvation the Lordship of Jesus Christ is acknowledged and accepted, but if there is no salvation then neither will a person acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. And it will show, as you stated, in their works.

The reason I say all this is because it seems to me that in your post you are trying to distinguish between a person who gets saved and a person who accepts that Jesus is Lord, when in fact the two are mutally the same thing. Perhaps I misread the intent of your post and you can clarify that for me, but are you trying to say, for instance, that Judas was saved but Jesus was not Lord of his life, and consequently he failed to repent and ended up in eternal perdition?

SchracktheBaptist

[Josephus]

The reason I say all this is because it seems to me that in your post you are trying to distinguish between a person who gets saved and a person who accepts that Jesus is Lord, when in fact the two are mutally the same thing. Perhaps I misread the intent of your post and you can clarify that for me, but are you trying to say, for instance, that Judas was saved but Jesus was not Lord of his life, and consequently he failed to repent and ended up in eternal perdition?

Sorry about the confusion:

The simplicity of it is this:

That there is no distinction between being saved and making Jesus Lord of your life - and there shouldn't be. :) I am saying that being saved means making Jesus Lord of your life, and that because Judas hadn't - he wasn't saved to begin with. Therefore, one is correct in saying "once saved, always saved" but also correct in saying "once saved by any other definition than making Jesus Lord of your life, is not always saved."

<><
Josephus

Something to ponder about.

[Schrack]

Thanks, Josephus, that seems to clarify your position for me. So, let me see if I have you correct now: you don't believe that once a person has been saved that he can become unsaved, but you do believe that a person may lose salvation, or more properly, forfeit it, under the condition that he rejects accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior?

SchracktheBaptist

[Josephus]

precisely. :)

[Schrack]

Cool.

[LouisBooth]

I'm getting the last cool in....cool :lol:

[PrinceJeff]

Cool :lol:

[PrincessTracy]

Ok now I'm confused on your opinion Josephus? hehe

Ok you don't believe that people can loose their salvation, but they can choose to give it up after they have been saved?

If that is what your saying I would have to say I disagree. I believe if someone "gives up their salvation" after being saved then they were either 1. Never really saved to begin with or 2. Are still saved and a wayward child of God.

OR

are you saying that if a person "gives up their salvation" and turns away from the Lord after they claim to have been saved they were never really saved to begin with?

And I noticed somewhere else you mentioned that the meaning of being "saved" may mean different things to different people. But there is only one thing that it means. Some may be confused of the meaning, but it doesn't change the meaning. Being "saved" means coming to the understanding that you are a sinner and that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God and that He is the only one that has lived a perfect sinless life and is the complete payment for your sins and that he was raised again after dieing for our sins and that through His death and resurection you are forgiven by asking Him into your heart and life as your Savior and Lord. It's a relationship not just knowing, but letting Him in your heart and life. Even the enemy KNOWS who Jesus is and what He did.

Sorry if I misunderstood :rollin:

In Christ,
Tracy

[ZoneChaos]

I think J meant the second exmaple Tracy... though I could be wrong.. but don't think so. ;)

I agree with what Josephus said. I do not beleive anyone cand or would want to lose Salvation once they were saved (Asked Jesus to be Lord of thier life.)

[Josephus]

The second example, Tracy. :)

My only point was to clarify what "being saved" really means because if you lose your salvation, then you "weren't really saved" - and some people get confused about that.

I was trying to tie in salvation with the fact that Jesus should be both your Savior and your Lord; but I had a question that if this was the case, then what would happen if you made something else Lord in or life, or would it be impossible to make anything else Lord of your life once you've let Jesus on the throne of your heart?

The answer I seem to be getting, is that once you open your heart to letting Jesus reign on the throne of your heart, your body then becomes the temple of the Holy Spirit (basically God in you) and never can he leave because you are now righteous in his sight, no matter what you do. The only thing that matters after that point though is what type of reward you will get when you are glorified and forever with Jesus.

[JKnappGirl]

Yes once saved always saved is biblical.

John 10:28-29
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

You see, I take that passage differently...of course.http://www.plauder-smilies.de/yellows/freak6.gif
I take that passage to mean that if people believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior, they will go to heaven. Jesus will give me and all those who believe eternal life.
I believe in the whole "umbrella of Grace" idea; you can choose to be under the umbrella {saved} or out from under the umbrella {unsaved}. And you can step out {or in} of that boundary at any time.
{Ugh. I'm so not good at this...*sigh*}
Anyway, I really don't think it matters though. All that matters is our belief, or non-belief, in Jesus. No matter what denomination we choose, or what our other beliefs are...only Jesus.

[LouisBooth]

I would have to disagree with the statement that you can loose your salvation due to certain passages in galatians. I would also say that in John 3 Jesus talks about being born again..you don't get born several times, just once ;)

[ZoneChaos]

I believe in the whole "umbrella of Grace" idea; you can choose to be under the umbrella {saved} or out from under the umbrella {unsaved}. And you can step out {or in} of that boundary at any time.


The problem i have with this is:

If you know the truth (under the umbrella), why would you step out from under it? I don't think humans are that fickle when it comes to this type of decision. There is alot to beleiving.

If someone was stepping on and out of "the umbrela" I would question their salvation and would not think they really knew what to believe.

[LouisBooth]

Zone.."If you know the truth (under the umbrella), why would you step out from under it? I don't think humans are that fickle when it comes to this type of decision. There is alot to beleiving. "

You can't really hold to that postion either since everyone is shown the truth and some do not take it. :) I'm on your side on this, but you can't use that as a primary reason.

[Aquafina1]

We just had this huge debate about this in my theology class.

I cant really say anymore because everyone else has already said it, but I believe that once God writes that name down into the lambs book of life that he never erases it. Just doesnt fit his character to promise eternal life and then go back on his word.

However I believe there is some confusions about being saved. People make an emotional commitment and cry or show some sort of emotion. In their mind they are changed, their emotions say they are. But their will does otherwise. I believe that if they walk away from God than they never gave him everything like he asked. They gave him 50/50 or did it for show. I dont think a true christian can walk away from God.

My mother believes otherwise, and my dad believes like me...great debates at the dinner table.

[ZoneChaos]

Amen, and thnx for the post Aquafina1.

[LouisBooth]

"However I believe there is some confusions about being saved. People make an emotional commitment and cry or show some sort of emotion. In their mind they are changed, their emotions say they are. But their will does otherwise. "

That's the difference between true and false faith..commitment. Many will say to me, Lord, Lord but I will say depart from me I never knew you (pharaprase).

[JKnappGirl]

I would also say that in John 3 Jesus talks about being born again..you don't get born several times, just once ;)
There's something wrong with that comment...I just can't put my finger on it...no offense! I think it reminds me of what the rich young man said.
Who's to say you can't be born again? Also, I don't believe a person has to be baptised to go to heaven.
If you know the truth (under the umbrella), why would you step out from under it?
1 Peter 5:8
"Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."
There's a reason Satan is called the "Great deciever"...Just because you "know the truth" doesn't mean you can't be decieved into thinking the opposite.

[LouisBooth]

"Who's to say you can't be born again? Also, I don't believe a person has to be baptised to go to heaven."

No my assertion is that Jesus says you have to be spirutally born again (born by the spirit) now if you say you can loose your salvation you are saying you get born many many times. In this passage (John 3) it doesn't seem to advocate that, since Jesus compares it to physical birth which happens once and only once. I don't think you have to be baptised to go to heaven either :)

[nevetstrebla]

Eternal security? Yes, indeed.

Romans 11:29

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The word "repentance" found in 11:29 in Greek means "irrevocable." The definition of irrevocable is unchangeable, irreversible, unalterable, etc.. We know from 6:23 that one of God's gifts is eternal life so, therefore, it cannot be taken away from us.

Can we cause ourselves to lose it?

Romans 8:38-39

For I am persuaded, that neither deather, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

From this verse it is very clear that NO CREATURE or anything else could separate us from God's love. We cannot separate ourselves from Him.

Why?

Jude 24-25

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

We don't have to keep ourselves from falling because He can do that for us.

[HisPeculiarTreasure]

I've read some of this topic and just wanted to say I belive what was just posted. You can not lose your salvation, once you are His child you are always his child. You may wonder and stray, but he always takes you back. That is what is so wonderful about our savior. No matter how many times you mess up He's right there with open arms, just waiting for us to realize that it's us who's moved not him. He's ready to forgive. AWESOME.

[ZoneChaos]

:)

[Josephus]

whether or not we've made Jesus Lord of our life is proved by what we do.

[Archieve]

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation iwth fear and trembling.

People say once saved, always saved. - Think if that was true, why does hell have christians in it?

[PrinceJeff]

Archieve thanks for that passage I was wondering where it was! :)

People say once saved, always saved. - Think if that was true, why does hell have christians in it?

Then they were never really Christians then. And who is in hell that claimed Christianity anyways? Just curious. There is a difference between calling yourself a Christian and actually being one. Only God knows your heart. :)

Jeff

[Archieve]

Jeff, if you don't have the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in tongues you are not saved.

[PrinceJeff]

I have never spoken in tongues Archieve. It is not a requirement for salvation. I have the Holy Spirit. You said you have never been to a Pentecostal Church, but they are the ones who teach what you say: "if you don't have the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in tongues you are not saved."

Nowhere in the Bible does it support that.

[LouisBooth]

ARch..Jesus NEVER spoke in tongues.

[nevetstrebla]

Where is the proof that if you are saved then you will speak in tongues? Please provide the scripture that backs your position.

[The Squalid Wanderer]

how can they then accept anything else?

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Romans 1:18-25

I suppose it would go something like that.

[The Squalid Wanderer]

does not preclude me abandoning that hand.

[LouisBooth]

Yes it does if you have that person there. If you look at that verse and its context it is clearly saying that being born again is a one time thing. You are a christian and if it truely happens you can't not be a christian ever again. Once saved always saved.

[The Squalid Wanderer]

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage...You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

[LouisBooth]

Yup, that affirms what I said :) Read romans chapter 8.

[The Squalid Wanderer]

[LouisBooth]

I guess you missed verses like "Who will bring any chage against those whom God has chosen?"

Check the last few verses.

Then in accordance with the illistration Jesus used in John 3 let me ask you..how many times can you be born? Just once. :) that should solve it for ya.

[Kanuk]

www.angelfire.com/realm/r.../OSAS.html (http://www.angelfire.com/realm/raised-to-life/Articles/P/OSAS.html)

[The Squalid Wanderer]

None of the verses you mentioned preclude me from abandoning God. They do promise that if I remain in Christ that nothing can take me away from him, but this in contingent upon me remaining in Christ, by the grace of God, of course.

Perhaps we are interpreting these verses differently, which leads us to different conclusions concerning what they are saying or implying.

[The Squalid Wanderer]

[LouisBooth]

I think that's the point. there is no way you can "stay in christ" Romans makes that clear. its not "you" that does anything" thus what God does can not be undone.

romans8:28-30 and to show ya its not us just read some eps. :)

[Kanuk]

Romans 8:29-39 teaches no such thing.

Kanuk

[LouisBooth]

Oh yeah it does :) I think verse 30 makes it quite clear. :) Once you are saved, you are always saved. then he hits it home in verse 33.

[The Squalid Wanderer]

I would have used verses 29 and 30 to disprove that God predestines us independent of what we do, since his predesination is contingent on his foreknowledge.

[LouisBooth]

"I would have used verses 29 and 30 to disprove that God predestines us independent of what we do, since his predesination is contingent on his foreknowledge. "

I would say differently and according to Paul, "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." you misinterperted the verse :)

[The Squalid Wanderer]

indeed does not depend upon our will nor our efforts but upon God.

This does not mean that we are not required to do anything. God's sovereignty does not cancel out our wills.

God works all things in us and yet everything can be ascribed to free will.

[Thunderchild]

Pre-destination is an interesting topic.

In some of the verses which people attempt to use as proof that pre-destination is factual, it is not the person that is pre-destined, but that the good things of heaven that are predestined for the person. That is to say: For the one who is faithful, good things are in store, and have been in store from the beginning of time.)

There are people who claim that the promise "I will never blot his name from the book of life" proves that OSAS is correct. They neglect the first four words of that passage - "For those who endure."

OSAS has a problem at core - God is not willing that ANY should die. There are some who die. Despite the fact that it is God's will that all should have eternal life - some will not.

Likewise the argument that It is not by works = <font color=red>I would say differently and according to Paul, "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." you misinterperted the verse </font> - there has indeed been a misinterpretation. For God demands that a person respond appropriately when grace (translated from the word "charis", charity) is extended.

[LouisBooth]

"OSAS has a problem at core - God is not willing that ANY should die. There are some who die. Despite the fact that it is God's will that all should have eternal life - some will not. "

Well umm..Romans answers that question quite nicely ;) Just check chapter 9. the quote Paul used from Exodus says it all.

[InspectorVol]

2 Peter 2:20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of rightousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hebrews 6:4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify unto themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Revelations 3:5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my father, and before his angels.

Revelations 22:19: And if any man take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

All of these verses show that a man can follow God and then he can fall away and be damned.
I have also seen this verse on here several times;
John 10:28and 29: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29: My father, which gave them to me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my fathers hand.
It is somewhat easy to see how one would take this verse to mean OSAS and attach it to our human existence. However if we look at this in conjunction with all other verses in the bible we see that while we are here on this earth it is possible that once we have known the truth to fall away from it.
After we come into our Fathers Kingdom then we are OSAS and no one can pluck us out of his hand, just not while we are on this earth.
It is really very simple.

[Kanuk]

If you think you can defend the false doctrines of Calvinism try challenging SmartAsk:

http://www.voy.com/55491/

But be ready.

Kanuk

[InspectorVol]

***

[Kanuk]

anyone who is a Calvinist. Calvinists love to puff themselves up..... at least until the challenge comes.

Kanuk

[InspectorVol]

I have seen some stuff on here about them and if it is true then they are kinda out there by themselves.
I have noticed from a couple of posts that we share a similar belief in a couple of things, so what church do you attend. I have mine listed in my bio.

[Thunderchild]

<font color=blue> Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. 29: My father, which gave them to me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my fathers hand. </font>

Those who follow Jesus hear his voice and no-one can pluck them from his hand. Oh very nice. Is it written somewhere in there, that those who have ceased to follow continue to hear his voice? or that none can pluck those who have ceased to follow from Jesus's hand?

Ah, but if a person has been following, some might say, they can not be plucked from Jesus's hand. I can see how they might get that impression - but not when Jesus's OWN exposition is taken into account - Luk 8:13 <font color=blue> They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. </font>

What was that again? Some will believe for a time, but in time of temptation fall away. Clearly those that are following will hear his voice, and they can not be plucked from Jesus's hand WHILE THEY CONTINUE TO FOLLOW. Could that explanation possibly be right?

Jhn 17:12 <font color=blue> While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.</font> Of those who were given to Jesus, all have been kept - EXCEPT the son of perdition. According to this verse, Judas was given to Jesus, but he was lost nonetheless.

The concept that a person can be following, yet fall away has been clearly established in a very short time.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Does Peter subscribe to the concept of OSAS, or does he admit that falling away is possible?

[LouisBooth]

What it comes down to is this..is salvation man earned or God given? If it can be taken away it is man earned..That is not so, the bible clearly shows that. If it is God given then it is perminent. :) Hope that simplifying of the issue helped ya'll.

thunder, you misunderstand the appication of that pariable in Luke. It is not talking about perminence of salvation. It is talking about NOT loosing your salavtion but loosing belief in the word, with to question is did they really have it in the first place. Your passage in John isn't even appicable since it is an exception as clearly noted in the verse itself just as Jesus is the exception to all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

In second peter, if you read the context, he is warning about false teachers, not loosing your salvation..this one is a very poor example. I'll go on...oh..wait, that was your last one ;) Okay, so I've debunked them all with a little bit of context, wow..never would have thought that would come into play :lol:

[The Squalid Wanderer]

does that mean you earned it?

[LouisBooth]

Nope, that's the point and why works CANNOT have any part in salvation, if so then it is man earned and thus not God given by grace.

[The Squalid Wanderer]

You said that if it was God given than it was permanent. I showed you a way that something could be given and lost yet still remain a gift and not something earned.

[LouisBooth]

"I showed you a way that something could be given and lost yet still remain a gift and not something earned. "

If you truely recieve it, you do not throw it away. For you are a NEW creature. All of this was covered in romans chapter 6 and 7....

[Brother Roger]

If the nature of the gift is analogous to a man giving a woman a ring, then we might ask the question. Can the woman give the ring back? Sure. The woman can give the ring back. If salvation is that kind of gift, then it makes sense to speak about it in terms of accepting it or giving it back.

On the other hand, suppose the nature of the gift is analogous to the fairy's gift of boyhood to Pinocio. Then we might ask, can the boy give his gift back? Can he stop being a boy and revert to being a puppet again? If the nature of salvation is such that it effects a person existentially, ontologically, then it doesn't make sense to think about giving it back.

What is "going forward"? Is that like a woman accepting a ring? Or is going forward more like Picocio getting his boyhood? I experienced it as if I was accepting something from God. However, the longer I live, the more I realize that until he gave me rebirth, I wasn't even interested in the gift.

For that reason, I think salvation is more like Pinocio's transformation. When God changes you, you are changed for good.

[LouisBooth]

"For that reason, I think salvation is more like Pinocio's transformation. When God changes you, you are changed for good"

Amen!! Great analogy..I'm gonna use it if that's okay?

[The Squalid Wanderer]

Dear Louis,

You said If you truely recieve it, you do not throw it away. For you are a NEW creature.This is why scriptures says it is such a tragedy to go back, but it doesn't prove that you can't go back.

[Ben johnson]

Excellent posts, Josephus. You and I agree completely, seemingly on all but one point: can a person who is truly saved, with "Jesus-LORD-OF-THEIR-LIVES", ever fall from salvation? I can provide clear Scripture to answer that---but since the topic of this thread seems to be asking for support of OSAS, I shall defer for now.

If JKnappGIrl or several of you want to hear what I consider irrefutable Scriptures on the subject, I'm certainly game.

I do want to leave you all with one thought: "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch (Greek: "Harpazo", seize-or-remove-forcibly---same exact word as used in 1Thess4:17 in reference to the Rapture) them out of the Father's hand." Does this verse say anything about "he who walks willingly out of the Father's hand, from disbelief"?

:)

[LouisBooth]

"This is why scriptures says it is such a tragedy to go back, but it doesn't prove that you can't go back. "

Umm..You can't be born twice spiritually. See John chapter 3. the same question applies here that nic asked just in a different context. You have 2 births..1 physical 1 spiritual. Can you be born twice in the same context? Nope. Just like you can't be born again physically.

[Ben johnson]

Either it is earned, or it is a gift from GodAnd behind door number THREE, we have: "salvation is a free gift from God, unearned, undeserved, which is bestowed on ALL WHO RECEIVE IT! Salvation always takes two things: Grace from God (by love), and faith from us (by conviction). "For by grace through faith have you been saved, and that (grace) is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God". "If you confess Jesus as Lord (your faith), "and believe God raised Him from the dead" (God's grace), " YOU WILL BE SAVED".
You can't be born twice spiritually. See John chapter 3John 3 says only that we have to be born physically, and then be born Spiritually. It does not say "Spiritually, ONCE". The Prodigal Son in Luke 15 is a great example of the son who was dead, then alive AGAIN. (No the argument "HE NEVER STOPPED BEING THE FATHER'S SON" doesn't work---unless you believe someone living in wanton hedonism can be SAVED!) Then, there's the verse in Romans 11, "And they too, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in again, for God is able to graft them in again". (The careful use of the singular and plural here indicates its application to indivicuals, not just "Israel-as-a-people were cut off and can be grafted in again")...

As to the "born again physically", isn't that what happened to Lazarus, Tabitha, the little girl...

;)

[The Squalid Wanderer]

"You can't be born twice spiritually"

I agree, and that is what Hebrews says as well. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

[Brother Roger]

Sure Louis, go ahead. :)

[The Squalid Wanderer]

I am curious how it is that you determined that the nature of salvation is something which cannot be given up. Considering the numerous exhortations and warnings found in scripture, why would you think that it is irresistable?

[Thunderchild]

<font color=green> thunder, you misunderstand the appication of that pariable in Luke..</font>

On the contrary - it was not the parable but Jesus's own explanation thereof that I made reference to.

<font color=green> It is not talking about perminence of salvation. It is talking about NOT loosing your salavtion but loosing belief in the word, with to question is did they really have it in the first place.</font>

Are those who do not believe saved? And does the passage say that those who once believe can not again disbelieve? <font color=red>which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. </font>
Or would 2Pe 2:21 <font color=red>For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. </font>
fail to provide a second witness that one can fall away - and provide evidence that falling away definitely means that a person can lose salvation - for the people being spoken of here also have this said of them -2Pe 2:1 <font color=red> But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. </font>

Look at that again....false teachers shall be among you - they deny the Lord who BOUGHT them - they bring destruction upon themselves. They have known the way of righteousness - they have turned away from the holy commandment delivered to them.

<font color=green> Your passage in John isn't even appicable since it is an exception as clearly noted in the verse itself just as Jesus is the exception to all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.</font> Well now, this is new ... normally OSAS subscribers merely try to reinterpret John 17:12. As to the claim that it is no more than an exception - it is quite clear that Jesus considered that some - Luke 8:13 (yet again) - will believe for a time but later fall away.

[Thunderchild]

Two different threads on the same topic is a bit hard to keep track of.

Would it be possible to merge them?

[LouisBooth]

Okay, too many people talking to me at the same time :lol: You can't be born twice spritually roger, for once you are "born again" you are a new creation. Period. No going back. thunder, every verse there i can reply to. None of them support nonOSAS.

[Ben johnson]

I agree, and that is what Hebrews says as well. It is impossible for those who have
once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the
Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the
coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss
they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public
disgrace. That's not what it says. THe Greek tense is very important here (although you can clearly see the intent even without it). It says, "It is impossible to restore them to repentance, WHILE THEY ARE FALLING AWAY". The impetus is entirely upon the person. The "impossibility" is "because they are falling away".

Impossible to what? For them to return to salvation? No. Impossible to restore them to repentance. Why? "Because the crucify to themselves the Son of God anew, and hold Him up to contempt. Again, impetus entirely upoh the person. I submit this is identically parallel to Heb10:26, "For if we continue sinning willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire that will consume the adversaries". for the people being spoken of
here also have this said of them -2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the
people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in
damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon
themselves swift destruction.

Look at that again....false teachers shall be among you - they deny the Lord who
BOUGHT them - they bring destruction upon themselves. They have known the way of
righteousness - they have turned away from the holy commandment delivered to them.You have not read it carefully. The "false prophets and false teachers" never cease from sin (2:2:14) Never. That means, NEVER SAVED. The FALSE ones "seek to entice those who have ONTOS APOFUEGO TRULY ESCAPED". 2:2:18

If the "ones escaped from world corruption through the EPIGNOSIS true knowledge of God and Jesus" in Peter 2:1:4 are saved (and they ARE), will you not accept that the "escaped the defilements of the world through the EPIGNOSIS TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST (2:2:20), will you not accept that they were saved too? And NOW, they have fallen. Forsaken salvation. Worse than before they were saved.

How can this passage possibly be painted to mean anything but "salvation can be forsaken"?

[PrInCeSs SaRaH NY]

I'm still not sure... I think if a person is afraid they have lost their salvation.. then they still have it. But, if they don't care, and go their merry way away from God... then there might be a problem. I believe there is gonna be a lot of people surprised when Jesus comes back. We have to be prepared for His return...
I thought about it once... and I wouldn't want my son to be married to a girl that isn't always faithful to him, consantly running around on him, and doesn't live her life to serve him. I do believe that is how it will be when Jesus comes back. I do think He gives grace, but I also think that He is the one who judges us.
What about the story Jesus told in the Bible about those people that are cast away from Him, and they had done miracles, and signs and wonders in His name? He said... "I never knew you". I think there is a fine line...

[LouisBooth]

I think those that are cast away....What he says makes it quite clear, He didn't say I once new you and now don't. He said I NEVER knew you...ie they were NEVER saved. :) so much for that verse breaking down the docterine of OSAS. Hope that helped.

[Thunderchild]

Indeed, "I never knew you" implies that they were never saved. Though it could in fact rather imply annulment of the contract (covenant) between these people and the Christ - but that might be drawing a long bow, according to some.

However, it IS undeniable that these people had faith - we see what happens when people who vest no faith in the Christ attempt to invoke his name, with the record of the seven sons of Sceva in Acts.

[LouisBooth]

"However, it IS undeniable that these people had faith "

:lol: no its not, because God said he never knew them. The guys moses talked to threw down their staves to become snakes :lol: miricles happen that are not of God thunder. It is clear they NEVER had true faith.

[Ben johnson]

I think those that are cast away....What he says makes it quite clear, He didn't say I once new you and now don't. He said I NEVER knew you...ie they were NEVER saved. so much for that verse breaking down the docterine of OSAS. You are correct, He said, "I never knew you". They were never saved.

Does this mean that ALL who reject Jesus, were never saved? Matt7:22: " MANY will come to Me on that day..."

He is speaking about a specific group, "many-who-come-on-that-day". Which renders this passage, in regards to "OSAS", non-sequitur. There can be many others who He DID know, but He NO LONGER knows...

(Good post, Sarah!)

[LouisBooth]

Exactly ben, I was saying that verse cannot be used to refute OSAS. Now about there being people he did know and turning them away....sorry..I don't think so ;)

[Thunderchild]

I would be most interested in finding out what OSAS adherents do to Jesus's statement that some will believe for a time and then fall away in their attempts to promote their opinion.

A check of other references where Jesus declares to workers of iniquity "I do not know you" shows quite clearly that this is a repudiation or disavowal - it does not mean that these people were never known to him as people who believeD in him.

[Optimus_P]

this is a rather good conversation only took me like an hour to get through all the posts tho. heh

let me ask you this. In what sense are you talking "once saved always saved" are you talking being forgivein for sins? Or are you talking if you turn your back on Christ and the Father and like Peter deny him?

even today i am a sinner. I ask for forgiveness. but will i receave it? I mean i am only supposed to do good by the grace of God. right? but yet i sin. little or big no diffearnce. Should i burn eternaly? some times i say yes but still pray. other times i pray they he hears my crys.

If you once lived your life for Christ. you can never really disown him, but in your heart of hearts you know what you do is wrong and you choose to not acknowledge (mentaly/verbaly) that he does not exhist for you. Have you fallen from him? No, you have just put distance between being a good beliver and a poor beliver. Does a Father not punish his child? in mans terms Hell for all eternity is an awfully BIG thing and long time. but to the Father and Christ they are mear moments that come and go.

I guess im just trying to say, if you truly beleive in Christ and the Father then you will be resurected to eternal life, bad or good eternal life who knows untill you apear befor the Judge. We can only pray that the Father will judge by what is in our hearts and not only what we did on earth.

[Ben johnson]

In what sense are you talking "once saved always saved" are you talking being forgivein for sins? OSAS is three, separate and distinct (and very different) beliefs.

1. Predestined-election: God has created some for salvation, and some for Hell; the former will be saved no-matter-what, the latter are forever beyond redemption.

2. Carnal Christianity: Salvation is relationship, gained by reciting "The Sinner's Prayer". No life-change is necessary, a drunkard or fornicator or adulterer or robber or murderer, can still be saved. Jesus may well deny you before the Father, but you will walk the streets of Heaven...

3. Eternal Security: Salvation is by man's choice, God reveals Himself in enough measure to allow depraved, "sinned-and-fallen-short-of-the-glory-of-God" to nevertheless accept Jesus and be saved. BUT---once you are saved, God interferes dynamically in the believer's life and prevents him from falling away, EVER. (Verses like 1Cor5:5 supposedly show that God will KILL a man {an unrepentant, immoral man, WORSE THAN GENTILES} so that he may still go to Heaven...)

Then is the one position of OSNAS, where God reveals Himself to each depraved sinful man in enough measure as to overcome his depravity, and allow him to either choose Him or reject Him. Salvation is "fellowship with/in/through Jesus", very much "abiding in Him", which is identically "Born Again". Since salvation is succinctly, "fellowship and abiding in Jesus", salvation is NOT a one-time-event, but a lifetime walk. Salvation cannot be lost, cannot be stolen, cannot be snatched by anyone else, cannot be revoked by God, cannot be reversed by God.

But salvation can be rejected by the MAN, who becomes deceived by sin and ceases to believe. An "unbeliever", is no longer saved...

:)

[WhitBit]

*wiggling fingers over keyboard, debating internally whether or not to dive into the opened can of worms*

*deep breath, deep prayer, another deep breath*

On the definitions of OSAS, I must admit that the thought running through my mind was "Egad."... I've been following the pages (all five...phew) absolutely SPELLBOUND by the grossly involved spiritual and theological debate going on in here, and KUDOS to ALL of you guys...I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to find so many people not only willing to take a stand on the matters of God, but dig into their Bibles (which are, in this case, well studied, to support their stands. God is an awesome God who has given us incredibly solid foundation in terms of guidance, truth, and...well. Bible stuff.

But to nudge in my p.o.v. on the topic of OSAS (a much debated subject between me and my best friend...many late nights spent with multiple translations, commentaries, and concordances on my bedroom floor, lemme tell ya.) ...

1. *egad* certainly not the one I'd pick for me. I'm with my pastor when I claim the truth of God's ah...(searching for the word, seems to have eluded me) pre-seeing as opposed to pre-destination. Why would an all-loving God bother creating the damned? And if He predestines us to salvation...then it's kindof a sick puppetry, would you not agree? Moving on.

2. *double egad* Reciting the "sinner's prayer" will no doubt have no weight on God's scales, but believing it will... And indeed every fornicator who believes in the saving grace of the Lord and trusts their life into His hands will be accepted by Christ...but I find it hard to swallow that there isn't life-style change in genuine salvation...and I thus question the validity of that "salvation" that does not erupt in the love of God and disgust with sin. (not to say that sin will nix your *groan* "ticket to heaven," but rather that it will be impossible to bear one-self and remain faithful to God...something has to give)

3. *pondering* I might buy this, except that God doesn't make efforts to intervene to the point that He prevents something ah, "evitable", other than taking care of the fold and running after lost sheep...just because He sidetracks to get the wandering lamb doesn't mean that if He doesn't, He'll never see the lamb again. He's God. Suddenly governing the outcome of man's actions, though? More of the puppetry. *overanalyzing*

An interesting point that I'm amazed has not been brought up *wishing Bible wasn't in other room or was more intact in memory*...where does our little Paraclete fit in here? I gather most would agree that God doesn't give the Holy Spirit to dwell in us on a "as-long-as-you-behave" basis. Will Christ deny Himself, then, when a believer-gone-sinner-again shows up outside the pearly gates with the Holy Spirit in his heart?? (Wouldn't the fact that you're grieving the Holy Spirit prove that It's still there?)

I'm beginning to wonder if I fall into my own category...we're all debating something theoretical. Can any of you even fathom knowing *really knowing* the awesome, uncomprimisable love of Christ and forgetting it? Not to say that you will know it and choose *more than once* to pick sin and flesh over His way out...but that you will accept His love, find something more interesting, and then simply decide not to know Christ anymore? Somewhere in the back of the mind will be the voice of the Savior, calling you to Him...and whether or not you choose to live like it until your death, there is no turning back from knowing who He is and believing His love.

*pwew* I don't know that even I know where I stand anymore...it will be a relief to go do my Bible study...the Samuels are far less debatable, lol :)

[LouisBooth]

thunder, I replied to that.

ben, you're wrong, #2 isn't what OSAS says at all and that is a gross error on your part. Life change is nessisary, but NOT REQUIRED.

"But salvation can be rejected by the MAN, who becomes deceived by sin and ceases to believe. "

Nope, biblically I'm not sure it can. I'll think on that. I still haven't seen any biblical evidence against OSAS.

[Thunderchild]

In truth, BenJohnson, that second point is incorrect. OSAS states that if one has faith in Christ, the life changes that are demanded of the believer automatically follow because of the "irresistable" directives of the Holy Spirit. Which is to say (logically), if you are really saved it becomes impossible to do else than live as a Christian should.

You have said that "never cease from sin" means that they were never saved. Does "never cease from sin" mean the same thing as "have never ceased from sin"? no. The concepts are by no means the same.

Oddly enough, the only point of dispute that I have with OSAS is the concept that none of this requires the person's co-operation. Oh - and that the OSAS belief, (again, logically), SHOULD result in the acknowledgement that it becomes, in time, possible for a person to stop sinning. Adherents of OSAS (generally) seem not to notice that living without committing sin is impossible to avoid if their argument is followed to its logical conclusion.

Again to the workers of iniquity. "Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons IN YOUR NAME." The power to work "false" wonders can not be invoked in the name of Christ. If these people were performing signs and wonders in the name of Jesus, it is impossible that their faith was vested in any except the Christ. A person who attempted to invoke the authority of the Christian would not for a moment succeed unless his faith was in the Christ.

The statement "I never knew you" is repudiation by the Christ and nothing more. When a marriage is legally annulled, it (legally) never existed - though in fact it once did exist. "I never knew you" is a statement of annullment, not of divorce - in which case "I once knew you and now do not" would be applicable.

Whit> Greetings. The need for a concordance can easily be met at a number of sites on the net. For preference, I use www.blueletterbible.org (http://www.blueletterbible.org)

[WhitBit]

"An interesting point that I'm amazed has not been brought up *wishing Bible wasn't in other room or was more intact in memory*...where does our little Paraclete fit in here? I gather most would agree that God doesn't give the Holy Spirit to dwell in us on a "as-long-as-you-behave" basis. Will Christ deny Himself, then, when a believer-gone-sinner-again shows up outside the pearly gates with the Holy Spirit in his heart?? ( And wouldn't the fact that you're grieving the Holy Spirit in the first place prove that It's still there?)"

I've done a tidbit of Bible look-up, not enough to make it a reasonable support for my belief either way...I'm mainly looking for teaching in the matter - if, indeed, the Holy Spirit comes with the whole package (I would be interested to find anyone refuting that), then I can't for the life of me imagine how this would effect the OSNAS standing.

Would God take away the Holy Spirit after salvation, thus marking us destined for eternal Hell, and NOT always saved?

[LouisBooth]

nope ;) because we are new creations in Christ, there is no going back. PERIOD.

[Ben johnson]

An interesting point that I'm amazed has not been brought up *wishing Bible wasn't in other room or was more intact in memory¹*...where does our little Paraclete fit in here? I gather most would agree that God doesn't give the Holy Spirit to dwell in us on a "as-long-as-you-behave" basis. Will Christ deny Himself, then, when a believer-gone-sinner-again shows up outside the pearly gates with the Holy Spirit in his heart?? (Wouldn't the fact that you're grieving the Holy Spirit prove that It's still there?) Inasmuch as "being FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT" is presented as a very clear (and daily) choice, (Eph5:1:cool: , God very much gives the Holy Spirit to dwell in us on a "as-long-as-you-believe" basis. Let us not forget that the Spirit was given to us as a seal of our salvation, conditional upon our belief (Eph1:13). If a believer becomes an unbeliever, will that seal remain unbroken? No. In truth, BenJohnson, that second point is incorrect. OSAS states that if one has faith in Christ, the life changes that are demanded of the believer automatically follow because of the "irresistable" directives of the Holy Spirit. Which is to say (logically), if you are really saved it becomes impossible to do else than live as a Christian should.Very Scriptural, and why I do not hold to "carnal Christianity". But I have debated with some who believe that drunards and theives and fornicators WILL go to Heaven. "Jesus may well deny you before the Father, you may be outta FELLOWSHIP with Him, but you are still in a saved RELATIONSHIP and absolutely WILL walk the streets of Heaven!" (Never did convince him otherwise...) BTW, Christians do sin, but do not practice sin. Paul very clearly says that continual (practicing) fornicators and revilers and drunkards and swindlers, shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 1Cor6, again in Gal5. And in Heb10:26ff... "I never knew you" is a statement of annullment, not of divorce - in which case "I once knew you and now do not" would be applicable.Excellent point... <Whitt> Would God take away the Holy Spirit after salvation, thus marking us destined for eternal Hell, and NOT always saved?

<Louis> nope---because we are new creations in Christ, there is no going back. PERIOD. Sorry, Louis. You are correct about us "being new creations in Christ", but there are lotsa Scriptures that speak of our being able to "not be in Christ if we choose"...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Footnote 1: THree things happen when you are REALLY old---first you lose your memory, and then, and then,

...I can't remember the other two...

[InspectorVol]

Can a Child of God So Sin as to be Lost?


INTRODUCTION:

Many people believe that, when a person becomes a child of God, afterwards it is impossible for them to so sin as to be eternally lost.

This doctrine is one of the five major points of Calvinism. It is often called "the eternal security of the believer," "perseverance of the saints," "impossibility of apostasy," or simply "once saved, always saved." Several major denominations officially believe the doctrine, though some do not emphasize it and as a result the members may not be aware of it.

The Westminster Confession adopted by most Presbyterian churches, states:

"They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved … Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan … fall into grievous sins…" (Book of Confessions of the United Presbyterian Church, 1967 Ed., Sec. 6.086-6.08:cool: .

The Philadelphia Confession, adopted by many Baptist churches, is almost identical to the above.

Sam Morris, "Pastor" of the First Baptist Church, Stamford, Texas, expressed the doctrine in its most extreme form as follows:

"We take the position that a Christian's sins do not damn his soul! The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul … All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debts he may pay, all the ordinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may perform will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger … The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul." (Morris, A Discussion Which Involves a Subject Pertinent to All Men, pp. 1,2; via Handbook of Religious Quotations, p. 24)

The purpose of this study is to examine what the Bible says about this subject.

It would be very comforting if this doctrine were true. However, if it is not true, then it would be a very dangerous doctrine because it would give people a false sense of security. People would not be on their guard against sin, and may not see any need to repent of sins, if they thought they would still be saved eternally despite their sins. If however they will be lost for sins they do not repent of, then such people are in grave danger. Surely it is important for us to know what the Bible teaches.

We can all agree that there is security for those who serve God faithfully. If we study God's word diligently and honestly, if we strive to overcome sin in our lives, and if we diligently repent and ask forgiveness for our sins, then we definitely have assurance and security regarding our eternal destiny. The question, however, is whether it is possible for a child of God to cease being faithful, to become disobedient, fail to repent, and so be lost.


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Part 1: Evidence that a Child of God
Can Sin and Be Lost

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A. Passages Warning Christians about the Danger of Sin
The Bible teaches that there are conditions a person must meet in order to receive forgiveness and become a child of God. Likewise there are conditions one must meet to continue faithful after becoming a child of God. Many passages warn us to be careful to meet these conditions else we will not receive eternal life. In each case we will note first that the passage is addressed to children of God. Then we will note that we are warned to avoid sin or we will be lost.

John 15:1-6 - We must bear fruit or be cast off.

Disciples are described as branches "in Christ" (v2,5, etc.) who have been cleansed by His word (v3).

But if they don't bear fruit and abide in Christ (v2,4-6), they will be taken away (v2), cast into the fire and burned (v6). (Abiding in Jesus and bearing fruit requires obedience - I John 3:6,24; John 15:10; Gal. 5:19ff; etc.)

Romans 8:12-17 - We must live according to the Spirit, not the flesh.

This is addressed to children of God (v16).

We are warned not to live according to the deeds of the flesh but be led by the Spirit. If we live according to the flesh, we will die (v13). This cannot be physical death since we all die physically regardless of how we live. This death is the opposite of the life we receive if we follow the Spirit.

To be heirs of Christ, we must be led of the Spirit (v14) and suffer with Christ (v17). It is conditional and depends on our life.

Galatians 6:7-9 - We must sow to the Spirit, not the flesh.

This is addressed to members of the church (1:2), sons of God by faith (3:26). [Cf. 4:6]

We will reap as we sow. If we sow to the spirit (i.e., if we produce the fruit of the Spirit - 5:22-25), we will reap eternal life (v:cool: . If we sow to the flesh (do the works of the flesh - 5:19-21), we reap corruption (6::cool: , which is the opposite of eternal life. In this case, we cannot inherit the kingdom of God (5:21).

We reap eternal life if we don't grow weary in doing good (v9). Note: "Be not deceived." Yet "once saved, always saved" is a doctrine that deceives many into thinking they will still reap eternal life even if they sow to the flesh.

1 Corinthians 9:27 & 10:12 - We must control our bodies and avoid sinning like Israel did.

9:25-27 - Paul, who was an apostle and therefore a child of God, was striving to gain the imperishable crown (v25). He had to discipline his body and bring it into subjection lest he himself be disqualified (NKJV; "a castaway" - KJV; "rejected" - ASV). (KJV elsewhere translates this word "reprobate" - 2 Cor. 13:5; Rom. 1:28; 2 Tim. 3:8; Tit. 1:16).

10:1-12 - Israel is an example showing us the importance of avoiding sin. The people to whom this warning applies ("we," "us") include the church, sanctified saints (1:2; cf. 1:9), and the apostle Paul.

This is an example and admonition to us (v6,11). We should not lust after evil (v6), commit idolatry (v7), commit fornication (v:cool: , etc. One who thinks he stands, must take heed lest he fall (v12). In context, this means he will not receive the crown Paul described (9:25-27). 6:9,10 show that people guilty of these sins won't receive the kingdom of God.

Note that a person who believes in "once saved, always saved" thinks he cannot fall. This passage is addressed to just such people and shows that they are the ones in the very greatest danger that they will fall!

Hebrews 3:6,11-14; 4:9,11 - We must avoid rebelling like Israel.

This is addressed to "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" (v1).

Israel failed to enter God's rest because they lacked faith and obedience. We too must guard lest we have an evil heart of unbelief, departing from God (v12), and become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin (v13).

To partake with Christ, we must hold fast our confidence (faith) firm to the end (3:6,14). If we do so depart, we will not enter the rest God has for us (4:9,11). Note that receiving the eternal reward is conditional on continued faithfulness.

Hebrews 10:26-31,39 - We must avoid willful sin.

This is speaking to those who know the truth (v26) and have been sanctified by the blood (v29). It is discussing the Lord's judgment on "His people" (v30).

We are warned not to sin willfully (v26). As long as we go on sinning willfully (NASB - v26), there is no sacrifice for sin. (This is not discussing what will happen if such people repent and change but what our condition is as long as this conduct continues.)

Such people are trodding underfoot God's Son (v29), doing despite to the Spirit of grace, counting the blood by which we were sanctified unholy (v29). Their only future is fierceness of fire (v27), sorer punishment than physical death under the law (v28f), vengeance from God (v30).

This is why we must not shrink back to perdition (v39).

2 Peter 1:8-11; 2:20-22 - We must grow in Christ instead of returning to the world.

1:8-11 - This is spoken to those who have obtained like precious faith (v1), escaped the corruption of the world (v4), and been purged from old sins (v9).

We must add to our lives the qualities listed (v5-7). If we do, we make our calling and election sure so we don't stumble (v10), but we receive the abundant entrance to the everlasting kingdom (v11). Note there is security for the believer, but it is conditional on growing and adding these qualities.

2:20-22 - This is still talking to people who have escaped the pollution of the world (v20), knowing the way of righteousness (v21). [cf. v1,15]

We are warned not to become entangled again in the world (v20), turning from the holy command (v21). If we do, we are worse off than we were before we knew the truth (v20). We are like a dog returning to vomit or a sow returning to mire (v22). [cf., v1,3]

But if "once saved, always saved," then this dog is much better off after returning to the vomit than he was before.

Romans 6:12-18 - We must not let sin reign in our bodies.

These were baptized into Christ (v3,4), set free from sin, and become servants of righteousness (v1:cool: .

They are warned not to let sin reign in their bodies nor present their members as instruments of sin (v12,13). The result of that would be death (v16). This must be spiritual again, since all die physically. The wages of sin, even for those here addressed, is death, in contrast to eternal life (v23).

Hebrews 6:4-8 - We must avoid falling away.

This is addressed to those once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift and the good word of God and were partakers of the Holy Spirit (v4,5).

We are warned not to fall away (v6). If they continue in this pattern of life (implied), they cannot be restored. They are crucifying Jesus afresh and putting Him to an open shame (v6). Their destiny is to be burned like a field of thorns (v:cool: .

Revelation 3:5; Exodus 32:30-33 - We must avoid having our names removed from the Book of Life.

Those whose names are in the book of Life will enter the eternal city, but those not in it are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 21:27; 20:12-15). But people whose names are in the book, may be removed because of sin (Ex. 32:30-33). Those guilty of sin CANNOT enter the city (Rev. 21:27). But those who overcome will not be blotted out of the book (Rev. 3:5). [Cf. Rev. 22:18,19]

Why would God continually warn of the danger of sin and being lost if it cannot happen? Do human parents warn their children to be careful how they flap their wings lest they fly too high and crash into the moon? God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33). Why waste time warning us about dangers that cannot happen anyway?

B. Bible Examples of Christians
Who Sinned & Stood Condemned.
The Bible not only warns us to be on guard lest we fail to meet the conditions for remaining faithful, but it also mentions specific people who did fall. This is not just a theoretical possibility. It is a practical reality. In fact, it has happened to many people, and could happen to us if we are not diligent.

Genesis 3:1-6 - Adam and Eve

God said if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would surely die (2:16,17).

3:4 - Satan said if Eve ate, she would not die. She ate and we know the result. This event is used in 2 Cor. 11:3 as an example to us of the danger of falling into sin.

Satan was the first one to teach the doctrine of "impossibility of apostasy." God stated the consequence of sin, but Satan denied that the consequence would follow. Today God has stated the consequences of sin, and Satan uses preachers to deny the consequences. The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" was originated and first preached by Satan himself.

The nation of Israel

The Old Testament contains countless examples in which God's people sinned and fell from God's favor, both individually and collectively. (Lev. 26; Deut. 28-30; I Sam. 12:10; chaps. 10-16; 28:15,16; I Chron. 28:9; 2 Chron. 15:2; 24:20; Isa. 1:28; Jer. 2:19,32 cf. Psa. 9:17; Jer. 3:6-14; 8:4-13; 9:12-16; Hos. 9:10; cf. Acts 7:37-43; Rev. 21::cool:

The fact these are in the Old Testament does not diminish the lesson for us. The New Testament expressly warns us that the same principle applies to us - I Cor. 10:1-12; Heb. chap. 3,4. With regard to the possibility of God's people sinning and being lost, the Old and New Testaments teach the same.

Christians who lost their faith

Hebrews 3:12 warned of the danger of developing an evil heart of unbelief like Israel. Many New Testament examples show people to whom this very thing happened:

2 Timothy 2:16-18 - Hymenaeus & Philetus strayed and overthrew the faith of some. (Faith cannot be overthrown in those who do not first possess it.)

1 Timothy 1:18-20 - Timothy should hold the faith and not be like Hymenaeus and Alexander, who made shipwreck concerning the faith and committed blasphemy.

1 Timothy 5:8 - Anyone (including a child of God) who doesn't care for his family has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

What happens to people who lose their faith? Faith is essential to salvation. Those who lose it are no better off than those who never had it.

Hebrews 11:6 - Without faith it is impossible to please God (the application in the context of this book is to those who had faith but turn from it - 3:12; 10:30).

Revelation 21:8 - Unbelievers will be in the lake of fire.

Acts 8:12-24 - Simon the Sorcerer

Simon believed and was baptized (v13). This is what Jesus said one must do to be saved (Mark 16:16). This is what the other Samaritans did (v12). Simon did "ALSO" the same things the others did. If they were saved, he was saved. If he was not saved, then none of the others were saved.

But Simon later sinned. His heart was not right (v21), he was guilty of wickedness (v22), and was in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity (v23). As a result, he would perish (v20) if he did not repent and pray (v22).

Galatians 5:1-4 - The Judaizers

These people were children of God (3:26; cf. 1:2-4; 4:6), who had been set free by Christ (5:1). They had to be in grace if they fell from it (5:4).

They sinned in that they desired to go back to the Old Testament yoke of bondage (5:1) and bound circumcision. As a result, Christ profited them nothing (v2), they were severed from Christ (v4), fallen from grace (v4). They were not obeying truth (v7).

Can one receive eternal life if he is severed from Christ (Eph. 1:3-7) and fallen from the grace that saves (Eph. 2::cool: .

"Once saved, always saved" is a tempting doctrine because it is comforting.

It tells people what they would like to hear. We would all like to think that, even if we or our loved ones fall into sin, they will still receive eternal life.

But it is a false doctrine because it clearly contradicts Scriptures in nearly every book of the Bible.

It is also a dangerous doctrine because it leads people to think they are safe even if they don't examine their lives, don't study the Bible, and don't repent of sin. Furthermore, it leads preachers to not warn sinners that they need to repent.

I have personally known people who told me of terrible sins they deliberately and knowingly committed, justifying themselves because they believed it would not affect their salvation. I have known teachers who justified those very people saying that they would not have lost their salvation even when committed those sins.

Suppose a child is about to cross a busy street. Shouldn't the parent warn the child to look carefully for traffic before they cross the street? People who advocate "once saved, always saved" are like a parent who not only does not warn the child, but worse yet tells him there is nothing to worry about because he can't get hit, and if he does get hit, he won't die!

Why should the child be warned? Because there is a very real danger. And the situation is most dangerous if the child is not on guard. The worst thing anyone can do to the child is to tell him there is no danger. Yet that is exactly what preachers do when they teach "once saved, always saved." And this has eternal consequences, because souls are at stake.

Nevertheless, if the child is careful, he can cross the street safely despite the danger. So the best favor anyone can do for the child is to warn him of the danger, so he can avoid it. That is exactly what we do when we preach the Bible passages that warn Christians to avoid sin. It is not that we believe Christians have no security, but we know people are only secure when they are aware of the dangers, so they can be on guard.


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Part 2: Evidence Offered to Show that a Child of God Cannot So Sin as to Be Lost

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Folks are sometimes confused by passages that are used to defend "once saved, always saved." We need to understand the arguments and how to answer them. Some of these passages do offer hope and security to believers, but they are conditional passages, and these conditions are often overlooked. If we study the verses in light of what we have already learned we will see that, while they do give security to those who are faithful, they do not teach unconditional "once saved, always saved."

John 10:28,29 - "They shall never perish … no one shall snatch them out of my hand"
This is a wonderful promise. But is it, as the preacher said, so unconditional that a person's soul cannot be lost no matter how he lives?

The context gives conditions - v27,28.

Note the word "and" repeated. Receiving life and never perishing are tied to hearing Jesus and following him. These are conditions, exactly like we have been teaching.

As the Good Shepherd, Jesus protects His sheep so no one can destroy them, as long as the sheep hear Jesus and follow Him. But what if they cease to hear and follow, as we have learned elsewhere they can do?

"Pluck" refers to an outside force.

"Pluck" (KJV) or "snatch" (NKJV, ASV) means "to seize, carry off by force" (Thayer), like the thief might do (v10,12). Neither Satan nor any outside force can steal you from the Lord, as long as you meet the conditions.

But we must "resist the devil," and then we have assurance he will flee from us (James 4:7). What happens if, through negligence or willful rebellion, we wander away from the protection of Jesus' fold?

Sheep can stray from the shepherd's protection.

Luke 15:3-7 - 100 sheep belonged to the shepherd (v4,6), but one became lost.

Acts 20:28-30 - Wolves may enter among the flock, speak perverse things, and draw away the disciples. They cannot compel us to follow them and be lost. We may still choose to follow the Lord's voice. But false teachers can lure us, attract us, and tempt us.

I Peter 5:8,9 - Satan is a roaring lion seeking to devour us. If we do not withstand him, he can capture and destroy us. But we can withstand him if we have faith and vigilance. This is what Jesus promised in John 10. (John 17; 6:37-40; I Pet. 2:25).

If sheep cannot possibly stray, even of their own free will, then this would deny our free moral power to choose. We could not become lost even if we wanted to!

1 John 3:9 - One begotten of God "does not sin … he cannot sin"
We must take all the Bible says on any subject (Matt. 4:6,7; Acts 3:22,23).

We have already shown many passages showing that it is possible for a child of God to sin. Many more verses, even in 1 John and addressed to these same people, show this is true:

1 John 1:8,10 - If we say we don't sin, we lie and truth is not in us. This is exactly the condition of some folks who argue for "once saved, always saved"!

1 John 2:1,2 - John wrote so we would avoid sin. Jesus is our propitiation if we do sin. If sin is impossible, why write, and why would we need propitiation?

1 John 2:15-17 - Love not the world. If we do, we don't love the Father (cf. I Cor. 16:22). Why warn us, if it is impossible to be guilty?

1 John 5:21 - Guard yourself from idols. Why, if it is impossible to be guilty of sin?

2 Peter 2:14 - Some children of God (v1,15) "cannot cease from sin"! If I John 3:9 means children of God cannot possibly commit sin, then this passage means these children of God cannot possibly quit sinning!

Clearly 1 John 3:9 does not mean sin is impossible, else we have contradictions in the Bible. In fact, many people who believe "once saved, always saved," will admit sin is possible (see quotes in introduction).

"Does not sin" refers to persisting in the practice of sin (see NASB).

A true child of God may occasionally commit acts of sin, but he must repent, confess, and be forgiven by Jesus' blood (1:9; 2:2). He must not continue in the practice of sin. Why not?

"God's seed abides" in the child of God.

The seed that begets us, so we become children of God, is the word of God:

1 Peter 1:23-25 - We are begotten again by the incorruptible seed which is the Word of God.

James 1:18 - We are begotten by the word of truth.

1 John 2:14,24 - The word of God, which we heard, abides in us. [Luke 8:11ff; I Cor. 4:15; I John 1:10; 2:5,7]

How does the this seed abide in us? Can it cease abiding in us?

1 John 1:10 - If we say we do not sin, His word is not in us. We may still know what it says, but we have rejected it.

John 5:38 - If we do not believe Jesus, God's word does not abide in us.

Acts 2:41 - Those who gladly received the word were baptized. Receiving the word requires believing and obeying it. Otherwise we are rejecting it. (I Thess. 2:13)

To have the word abiding in us means to have a receptive attitude toward it, believing and obeying it, applying it in our lives. If this is our attitude, 1 John 3:9 says we will not continue in the practice of sin. Of course not, because to do so would be to reject the word so it no longer abides in us!

Note Psalms 119:11 - Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You! This is exactly what 1 John 3:9 says.

But can we cease believing the word, studying it, and striving to live by it? We have shown that we can. If we do, the seed no longer abides in us, so we practice sin.

"He cannot sin"

Does this mean it is humanly impossible under any circumstances to transgress?

"Can" (Gk DUNAMAI) means: "to be able, have power, whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of state of mind, or through favorable circumstances, or by permission of law and custom" (Thayer).

Examples elsewhere show it does not necessarily mean physical or human impossibility, but rather that law, state of mind, or circumstances do not allow it:

1 Corinthians 10:21 - You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons (it is not lawful).

Acts 4:20 - We cannot but speak the things we have seen and heard (law and state of mind do not permit it).

Mark 2:19 - Sons of the bridechamber cannot fast while the bridegroom is with them (circumstances make it such that no one would do it).

Hence 1 John 3:9 means that, when one has accepted God's word into his heart and so becomes a child of God, his attitude and the principles of the word will not allow him to continue practicing sin. God's word (the seed) has become the guiding principle of his heart, and it would be inconsistent with this to continue practicing sin.

For example, suppose an employer asks a Christian employee to tell a lie. The Christian replies, "I can't do a thing like that." Is it physically impossible? No, but it is completely contrary to his nature as a child of God. As long as his attitude toward God's word is right, he will not do it.

The Body Sins, but the Spirit Does Not
We are told that we may physically do things that violate God's word, but He does not hold our spirit accountable for what the body does.

Those who teach this doctrine are obligated to produce Scripture to prove it.

It is not enough to make the claim. They must give Scripture.

Is the spirit responsible for the good deeds of the body? If so, why not also for the bad deeds?

If they cite Rom. 7:25 & 8:1, note 7:23 and 8:6-17 which show the man is condemned for the sins of the body.

Many Scriptures show that God holds the spirit (inner man) accountable for the sins of the outer man.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10,13,15,18-20 - Fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God. But this is a sin of the body. The body is a member of Christ, a temple of the Spirit, and belongs to God so it should be used for His glory (this shows the people addressed are children of God, bought with a price, etc.). [cf. 3:16,17]

Mark 7:20-23 - Evil (done by the body) proceeds from the heart and defiles a man. [Prov. 23:7; 4:23]

2 Corinthians 5:10 - We will be judged for deeds done in the body. Our spirits will be held accountable for what the body does.

Romans 6:12,16,23 - People who have been baptized into Christ (v3,4) and made free from sin (v1:cool: , must not let sin reign in their mortal bodies. If we do, we are servants of sin and must die (v16,23).

1 Corinthians 9:27 - Paul buffeted his body to bring it in subjection, let he be a castaway.

Romans 8:13 - We must put to death the deeds of the body in order to live. Otherwise, we will die.

[2 Cor. 7:1; Rom. 12:1,2; Gal. 5:19-24; Acts 8:20-22]

Passages that Say We Have Eternal Life
Numerous passages are cited which say we have eternal life: John 10:28; 17:3; 5:24; 3:36; 6:47; 3:16; I John 5:12,13. Some argue that, if we have it, and if it is eternal, then we cannot lose it. If we do, it wasn't eternal.

We have eternal life now only as a promise or hope.

1 John 2:25 - This is the promise He has promised us, even life eternal.

James 1:12 - The crown of life which the Lord promised to those who love Him.

Titus 1:2; 3:7 - The hope of eternal life, which God promised.

We receive eternal life, in the sense of a present possession, only after earthly life is over and then only if we endure faithfully till life is over.

Luke 18:30 - We receive eternal life "in the world to come."

Romans 2:5-7 - Eternal life will be given at the judgment IF we continue patiently in well doing. [This is the same time that the wicked will receive eternal punishment - Matt. 25:46. Does this happen in this life?]

Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and receive the crown of life.

In this life, we "have" eternal life in the sense of a promise or a hope based on faith. But we actually enter eternal life at the judgment if and only if we continue living faithfully till life is over. This is a conditional promise. We will be lost if we fail to meet the conditions.

The proof texts, used to defend "present possession" of eternal life, themselves state conditions to be met.

John 5:24 - He who hears and believes. But we have shown that one can cease doing these.

John 6:47; 3:16,36 - He that believes. But one can cease believing.

1 John 5:13 - V11,12 speak of those who believe on the Son, and life is IN the Son. But we can cease believing and fail to abide in Him (John 15:1-:cool: .

John 10:27,28 - Hear Jesus' voice and follow Him.

John 17:3 - Know God. But one can forget God, turn from Him, and cease to know Him (I John 2:3-6; Jer. 3:21,22; Psa. 9:17; 106;12,21,24).

Note also that saving faith requires obedience, and to cease to obey is to cease to have a saving faith - James 2:14-26; Heb. 10:39; chap. 11; Gal. 5:6; etc.

The fact life is "eternal" does not prove we cannot lose it. "Eternal" describes the nature of the life. It has nothing to do with whether it can or cannot be lost.

Example: Suppose someone offers me a watch guaranteed to work for 50 years, but I must do some task in order to receive it. It is still a "50-year watch" regardless of whether or not I do the job and receive it.

These passages discuss the reward believers will receive as a result of their current state. But they are not discussing what would happen if they change their state.

The passages are not intended to discuss everything about what can happen to a child of God. They are written to help us appreciate the blessings we have, or to encourage people to become children of God. But God does not put all His will in a single verse or passage. We are expected to study other Scripture. When we do, we learn that we ultimately receive the reward only if faithful. It is misusing these verses to teach from them something they do not necessarily mean and which contradicts other passages.

Consider the consequences if we used this reasoning on passages that describe the lost. John 3:36 says unbelievers shall not see life. Shall we conclude this too cannot change (like people argue on the first part of the verse)? If a person is lost, does this prove he can never change and be saved? "Once lost, always lost"? [Cf. John 5:24; Heb. 6:4-8; 10:26ff]

If we can see how unsaved people can change their state and become saved, despite such verses as this, then in the same way we can understand how saved people can change their state and become lost.

This same approach works with most other arguments for "once saved always saved." Consistently applied to passages about lost people, the same arguments would prove "once lost, always lost."

Jesus' Blood Sacrifice Is Sufficient.
Some folks say that Jesus' death is all we need to be saved. If we argue that there are things we need to do to be saved, including living a faithful life, they say we are denying the power of Jesus' death.

We agree Jesus' blood has the power to cleanse all sin. But the question is whether it cleanses conditionally or unconditionally. We cannot earn salvation, but are there conditions we must meet to receive the forgiveness?

Jesus died for all people. If His death is all we need, and people need do nothing at all, then all would be saved.

1 Timothy 2:6 - Jesus gave His life a ransom for all.

Hebrews 2:9 - By the grace of God, Jesus tasted death for all men (the extent of this is shown in v15).

John 3:16 - God gave His Son for the world because of His love.

1 John 2:2 - Jesus is propitiation for the sins, not just of Christians, but for the whole world. [cf. I John 4:14]

Romans 5:18,19 - By Jesus' act of righteousness (His death - v8,9), justification came to all men.

If Jesus' death is "sufficient" and "all we need," then why aren't all men saved, since He died for all? But we know that not all will be saved (Matt. 7:13,14; etc.). So there must be something that distinguishes the saved from the unsaved. There are conditions we must meet.

God is no respecter of persons.

Romans 2:6-11 - God distinguishes the saved from the lost "without respect of persons" or partiality. If Jesus' death was all there was to it, then He must save everybody or else be a respecter of person. Instead, there is a distinction on the basis of our conduct - whether we work evil or continue in doing good.

Acts 10:34,35 - God is no respecter of persons, but those who fear Him and work righteousness are accepted. True, we cannot earn salvation. But there is a way God distinguishes between those who will be saved by His son's blood from those who will not - our faith and works.

When people claim that Jesus' death is all there is to it and people do not need to do anything to be saved, they unknowingly make God a respecter of persons.

If Jesus' blood saves by itself with no conditions to be met, then why is faith necessary?

In practice, everyone admits there are some conditions necessary to be saved by Jesus' blood. Most people admit we must believe. Many agree we must repent and confess Christ. (See John 3:16; 8:24; 2 Pet. 3:9; Rom. 10:9,10; 6:3,4; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark. 16:16; etc.) But these are simply conditions we must meet to receive the benefit of Jesus' death. To admit this is to admit Jesus' death alone, without conditions people must meet, will not save.

But if we agree there are conditions people must meet to be saved, then why object when we point out from the Scriptures that these necessary conditions include baptism and a faithful life? These no more deny the power of Jesus' death than do faith, repentance, etc.

If you can recognize faith, etc., as necessary to salvation without denying the importance of Jesus' death, then in the same way we believe baptism and a faithful life are also necessary without denying the importance of Jesus' death.

The Bible expressly shows that there are conditions children of God must meet to be cleansed by Jesus' blood.

1 John 1:7-9 - Children of God do sin (v8,10). To be cleansed by Jesus' blood, we must "walk in the light" and "confess our sins." To deny this is to deny the clear teaching of Scripture.

Acts 8:22 - A child of God (v12,13) who sinned was clearly told that, to be cleansed of his sin, he must repent and pray. It is Jesus' blood that forgives. But just as there are conditions we must meet to be cleansed and become a child of God, so there are conditions we must meet to be cleansed after we are children of God.

[LouisBooth]

The only thing i want you to explain in a short way (not 10 pages I don't have the time to reply to it all, though I promice I could ;) ) is HOW you can become a old creation when Paul and many others made it VERY clear that 1. that nature is dead and gone and not coming back 2. its our will to be comfortable that makes us want to sin (christians) not the fleshly nature for it is dead. 3. How can you undo something God has done..that says God is NOT sovergin. Its very clear to me in scripture that its OSAS. Just as an example in John 15 its talking about doing good works...you cant' do any apart from Christ, that is the moral there :) has nothing to do with salvation. :)

[Ben johnson]

Inspector Vol, that was beyond awesome! Points identical to arguments I have made, with identical Scriptural quotes. It seems so perfectly clear to me, in Scripture, that the nature of our salvation is "fellowship with/in/through Jesus", succinctly "abiding in Him", which is not a "one-time-thing" but rather a "life-long-walk". I have discussed and argued and debated, but not convincing some "OSAS" proponents of the validity of Scripture. Most often they just quit responding, and then days later post elswhere the same exact arguments that I countered with Script

In my immaturity I found that incredibly frustrating. As I grew in Christ and matured, I came to realize basic truths---there IS a Savior, and it's JESUS, not me. I now post the Scriptures as they were written, demonstrating the theological truths. If the person does not accept what the Bible says, that's perfectly OK--- I'm not the One they will ultimately answer to. After all, salvation being "surrender to Jesus", it is HIM and the Holy Spirit that must work in their hearts to "bring to completion the good work began in them" (Phil1). If it does not come to completion, then they have not chosen the "saved relationship/fellowship". Such is their

"Carnal Christianity" is the easiest "OSAS" view to "debunk". Yet, after reading Heb10:26ff, 1Cor6:9ff and Gal5, after citing 2Tim2:11-12 (cause-and-effect, thesis-antithesis that our DENYING HIM equates to our NOT REIGNING WITH HIM), still are people who hold to "carnal Christianity". They actually believe that 1Cor5:5 says Paul gave them to be killed, that their souls would be saved"---which would have unrepentant immoral men, more immoral than Gentiles, entering Heaven!!! (This flying in the face of Jesus' words, that "Unless you REPENT, you WILL PERISH! Luke 13:3) What more can I say to them? Nothing more. If they do not believe Scripture, my words will have no value either.

But we serve a real God, and change comes from within, BECAUSE OF HIM. So I cease the argument (lest my words become mere "disputes/factions/dissentions"), I love them, and I pray for them. That God would convict them from the inside-out.

It is the best I can do...

[Thunderchild]

All true, BenJohnson, but can any of those passages address the nonsense that attempts to evade the matter of falling away by claiming "they were never saved in the first place."

So little do these people making the claim believe the plain statements of the Bible, that nothing can be proven to them.

Show them that Jesus, in explaining the meaning of a parable, saying Luk 8:13 <font color=red>They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.</font>. Their response is to haughtily dismiss this as being part of the parable, and therefore irrelevant.

Show them that the statement is not the parable, but an explanation of the parable's meaning - and there is no acknowledgement of the truth even then.

Persistence in presenting the truth is necessary, in spite of this. While the person concerned has rejected the truth, yet others may be swayed if we do not.

[Ben johnson]

There's only so far you can go in "contending for the faith", or "admonishing with pure doctrine". I contend that 2Peter2 is dealing with "Christians who forsake salvation". I am rebutted with "They were FALSE PROPHETS and FALSE TEACHERS, they were NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH". I respond by carefully showing that the passage speaks of two different groups, the "false ones" and the "true ones". The former seek to entice to sin the latter. The latter, undeniably saved (unless you reject that the escapees in chapter 1 of the same book are ALSO not saved, which would be ridiculous), are enticed, stumble, and are overcome by the defilements of the world. No longer saved. I am rebutted with "But PETER was writing to the DISPENSATION THEN, it doesn't APPLY NOW". I cite James5:19-20, I'm told "They didn't really FALL FROM GRACE! It's only PHYSICAL DEATH, not SPIRITUAL". I quote the Greek of "Psuche" and "Thanatos", I'm told "James is aNOTHER previous-dispenation-book! It is not meant for us!" I quote Jesus' words, from Jn15, I'm told, "OH NO, He's not talking about them falling from salvation!" I correctly detail the intent of Hebrews, it is rejected.

Comes a point when all that can be said, has been. In truth, no one will listen who does not want to hear. Ever striving for humility, I take my own words to heart, praying always that I myself shall be open to the Spirit, that I shan't be so fixed in my own opinion that I cannot admit to being wrong. I am fallible. I make mistakes. I am willing to admit it, and change---that I may be molded and used as the Spirit wills. "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"!

And I believe the Spirit wills that I contend for the Gospel, which is Jesus-IN-US, identically fellowship with/in/through Him. Available to ALL MEN, that "whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved", that "whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life", that the life is "abiding in Him and His teachings", that "abiding in Him requires diligence and will"...

This the Bible has taught me. Until I can be taught differently, from the Bible and from the Spirit, so shall I stand. But always in love and fellowship...

[Thunderchild]

Accepted, BenJohnson, and understood. It may be that where one has a "directive" (for want of a better word) to deal with such conditions in one way, another will be led to deal with the problem in a very different manner. I am not satisfied that everyone is expected to comply with "him that will not tolerate sound doctrine, after a second or third warning, rebuke before all."

That was quite a big list by the way - it might be a diverting pastime to produce a full list of all the nonsensical objections that people use when they are faced with sound doctrine. I reckon it should fit on a 4 gig hard drive - or maybe 6, anyway.