Question about the Lords Prayer.

[ChessCastle]

This was a part of todays reading.
Matthew 6:7-15
7‘When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 ‘Pray then in this way: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. 10Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11Give us this day our daily bread. 12And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one. 14For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I know everyone here has probably read this, but it made me think of the concept of Christ dying for our sins. I clearly remember hearing from several people including a pastor that our (meaning anyone who had accepted Christ as their lord and savior) sins were forgiven by Christ dying on the cross. But here in verse 15 it says if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven. What am I missing?

CC

[Naomi4Christ]

Anything that is repeated in the bible (v15 being the the converse of v14), like this, means that you have to sit up and take notice. What is being said here is a very important subject, and that is that there is a connection between forgiving and receiving forgiveness. We have all received forgiveness from the Lord, and therefore we should have it in our heart to forgive others.

I don't think it means that salvation is cancelled but the cross does not give us carte blanche to behave in a sinful and unrepentant way. God wants us to forgive one another - he wants us to have a right relationship with one another, as much as he wants us to have a right relationship with him. We are happier when we forgive one another and God wants us to be happy.

There's a good illustration of this concept in the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant - Matthew 18:21-35

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

You need to see this in context with Jesus' teaching that the measure we use for others will be the measure used for us, and the parable of the unforgiving servant.

In the first case, and this is echoed in the Older Brother's attitude in the parable of the Prodigal Son, and the attitude of the first hired workers in the parable of the Workers in the Vineyard, Jesus is addressing a tendancy we have to consider ourselves suitable objects for forgiveness, but not other people. You will even see this on CF sometimes - "I hope he gets what's coming to him when he faces his maker". All totally natural, of course, but Jesus wants us to rise above what's natural.

In the second case, the Unforgiving Servant, we see the rationale behind this insistence on charity and forgiveness towards others - that God has forgiven us. In this parable, we note that the unforgiving servant has already been forgiven - his forgiveness was not actually dependent on him being forgiven. Nevertheless, his subsequent unforgiveness is seen as a serious sin.

And that is why Jesus reinforces this link in the Lord's Prayer. We are to forgive others in the same way that we have been, and will be, forgiven.

Does this mean the unforgiving are doomed to Hell as unforgiven? No, I don't think so. Unforgiveness may be a sin - although there has to be room also for people who have had very serious sins committed against them for whom forgiving as an act of will is beyond what they are currently ready for - but it is itself a forgiveable one.

However, we have to contend with the more Catholic understanding of sanctification. The protestant tendancy is to focus on imputed holiness - we repent, we're forgiven, we're counted holy. In the Catholic tradition, holiness is something we really can aspire to attain, with the help of God. Indeed, in full-blown Roman theology, the process of acquiring holiness carries on after death in Purgatory, and only when it is achieved there can we actually enter heaven. This is a view I have some sympathy with, although I wouldn't want to be drawn on exactly what this purgatorial state is like. It needn't be a sort of Hell-Lite, as it has sometimes traditionally been envisioned.

Unforgiveness is therefore, as a sin, not something that so much impedes our being forgiven, but something that impedes our sanctification - our being made holy. Consequently, even if we are currently unable to forgive, our intention and willingness to do so when we can, as we are sanctified in partnership with God, is what is required.

Now I need some coffee. I don't like to think how long I'd need a purgatorial spell for if I died tomorrow!

[Wigglesworth]

14For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


I know everyone here has probably read this, but it made me think of the concept of Christ dying for our sins. I clearly remember hearing from several people including a pastor that our (meaning anyone who had accepted Christ as their lord and savior) sins were forgiven by Christ dying on the cross. But here in verse 15 it says if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven. What am I missing?

There is a difference between justification and forgiveness. One can be a Christian, believing in and accepting the the work of Jesus on the cross for personal salvation, yet be living in unforgiveness. To be forgiven requires repentence, and one who lives in unforgiveness is unrepentent with respect to that unforgiveness.

Christians go to Heaven because of justification. A Christian's present relationship with God (e.g. prayer) can, however, be impeded by unforgiveness and present sin. That doesn't mean the Christian's destination is Hell. It does mean that communion is broken as it was by the prodigal son.

[ChessCastle]

You need to see this in context with Jesus' teaching that the measure we use for others will be the measure used for us, and the parable of the unforgiving servant.

In the first case, and this is echoed in the Older Brother's attitude in the parable of the Prodigal Son, and the attitude of the first hired workers in the parable of the Workers in the Vineyard, Jesus is addressing a tendancy we have to consider ourselves suitable objects for forgiveness, but not other people. You will even see this on CF sometimes - "I hope he gets what's coming to him when he faces his maker". All totally natural, of course, but Jesus wants us to rise above what's natural.

In the second case, the Unforgiving Servant, we see the rationale behind this insistence on charity and forgiveness towards others - that God has forgiven us. In this parable, we note that the unforgiving servant has already been forgiven - his forgiveness was not actually dependent on him being forgiven. Nevertheless, his subsequent unforgiveness is seen as a serious sin.

And that is why Jesus reinforces this link in the Lord's Prayer. We are to forgive others in the same way that we have been, and will be, forgiven.

Does this mean the unforgiving are doomed to Hell as unforgiven? No, I don't think so. Unforgiveness may be a sin - although there has to be room also for people who have had very serious sins committed against them for whom forgiving as an act of will is beyond what they are currently ready for - but it is itself a forgiveable one.

However, we have to contend with the more Catholic understanding of sanctification. The protestant tendancy is to focus on imputed holiness - we repent, we're forgiven, we're counted holy. In the Catholic tradition, holiness is something we really can aspire to attain, with the help of God. Indeed, in full-blown Roman theology, the process of acquiring holiness carries on after death in Purgatory, and only when it is achieved there can we actually enter heaven. This is a view I have some sympathy with, although I wouldn't want to be drawn on exactly what this purgatorial state is like. It needn't be a sort of Hell-Lite, as it has sometimes traditionally been envisioned.

Unforgiveness is therefore, as a sin, not something that so much impedes our being forgiven, but something that impedes our sanctification - our being made holy. Consequently, even if we are currently unable to forgive, our intention and willingness to do so when we can, as we are sanctified in partnership with God, is what is required.

Now I need some coffee. I don't like to think how long I'd need a purgatorial spell for if I died tomorrow!

Wow thanks for the explanation. I'm going to give this some serious thought, would you..or anyone mind giving me the scriptures where I can read about the Prodigal Son, and Workers in the Vineyard?

CC

[Fish and Bread]

Wow thanks for the explanation. I'm going to give this some serious thought, would you..or anyone mind giving me the scriptures where I can read about the Prodigal Son, and Workers in the Vineyard?

CC

The story of the Prodigal Son begins with the Gospel of Luke 15:11 (chapter 15, verse 11). Luke 15 as a whole is one of my favorite chapters in the entire bible. If you start at verse 1, you can read the story of the lost coin as a bonus. ;)

The parable about the workers in the vineyard is somewhere in the Gospel of Matthew, I think, but I'm not sure where. It was read recently in the lectionary, so if you have church bulletins from the last few weeks or a Book of Common Prayer, you should be able to locate the chapter and verse fairly quickly.

John

[Naomi4Christ]

It's Matt 20: 1-16

[ChessCastle]

Thank you both for the scripture references.