homosexuality

[kod]

I started a thread on this subject in another forum but it seems to have been hijacked by non believers. I am interested in discussing the issue with those who accept the authority of the Bible.

I am aware of the 7 main references to same sex behaviour in the Bible but feel that these do NOT conclusively show that a monogamous homosexual relationship is wrong.

For example, the reference in Leviticus 18:22 ("You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination") requires us to examine the meaning of the word "abomination". 

The verse immediately preceding Lev 18:22 suggests this was a prohibition to participate in pagan idol worship which involved these practices, and therefore is not refering to homosexual relationships.

In the Old Testament there are several Hebrew words translated as "abomination" and most of them refer to things that we do not believe to be morally wrong (eg  a woman wearing pants  Deut 22:5).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andrew]

quote: "The verse immediately precedingÊLev 18:22 suggestsÊthisÊwas a prohibition to participate in pagan idol worship which involved these practices, and therefore is notÊrefering to homosexual relationships."

You miss the point. the key here is sex between man and man -- the physical sexual act. And whether its done in some pagan rituals or in a monogamous homosexual relationship is quite irrelevant -- God is against it.

God created sex to be between man and woman for procreation and enjoyment - within a marriage. That's God's blueprint seen in Genesis and we will do well to follow it cos God made us so he knows best what works and what doesnt.

Also, look for spiritual truths, types and shadows in a man-woman relationship. eg the church is the bride of Christ, the bridegroom. this is a male-female typology. the church is not called "bridegroom" as well for a reason. in otherwords, a man does not marry a man. God gave us marriage between husband(man) and wife(woman) to help us best understand the relationship between the church (bride) and Christ (bridegroom).

that's why when Paul talks abt husband and wife responsibilities/roles, he refers so much to the church and Christ relationship.


note also, any relationship out of a marriage is called fornication, whether homosexual or not. and to avoid this, God says

1Co 7:2* Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

notice its man-wife and wife-man, not man-man or woman-woman.

[wblastyn]

Yes, you have to be married to have sex, and Jesus Himself said marriage is between male and female.

[Loser For Jesus]

Originally posted by kod
I started a thread on this subject in another forum but it seems to have been hijacked by non believers. I am interested in discussing the issue with those who accept the authority of the Bible.

I am aware of the 7 main references to same sex behaviour in the Bible but feel that these do NOT conclusively show that a monogamous homosexual relationship is wrong.

For example, the reference in Leviticus 18:22 ("You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination") requires us to examine the meaning of the word "abomination". 

The verse immediately preceding Lev 18:22 suggests this was a prohibition to participate in pagan idol worship which involved these practices, and therefore is not refering to homosexual relationships.

In the Old Testament there are several Hebrew words translated as "abomination" and most of them refer to things that we do not believe to be morally wrong (eg  a woman wearing pants  Deut 22:5).

Perhaps we just need to accept God's Word for what it says, instead of trying to twist it to suit our own ideas or "cultural" preconceptions.

If the God's Word states that something is an abomination which we believe is - or should be - morally acceptable, why are we so arrogant as to think it is the interpretation of the Bible that must change to accomodate our moral opinions, rather than the other way around??

love in Christ,

Malcolm

[DaveKerwin]

If you read scripture, it is one man and one woman, one flesh, for life.

Homosexuality is a sin, there is no doubt about it. In my opinion, if a man is unwilling to stop his sin, it is a safer lifestlye to have a life partner instead of 100 different sexual encounters, which is the average for a male homosexual to have in his lifetime. But that lifestyle is still sinful, and should be seen as such. If I was a homosexual believer, I would be single, and ask God to change my desires.

[Loser For Jesus]

I agree with everything Dave wrote.

love in Christ,
Malcolm

[LouisBooth]

Perfect post dave..perfect!!!!!

[kod]

It is refreshing to hear people opposed to homosexuality not using the "all [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] will burn in hell" type of language.

The church's attitude to many minority groups has changed over time. Most brides no longer promise to obey, nor are women prohibited from speaking in church. The beating of children is no longer justified by "spare the rod and spoil the child". Our attitude to divorcees has changed, and we no longer cast demons out of people who have epilepsy. 

We cannot deny that our understanding of the Bible has developed and undergone changes, most would say for the better.

When homosexuals are excluded from the church, there are two consequences. They will be more likely to engage in a promiscuous lifestyle, or they will be inclined to hide their sexual orientation and perhaps even marry and have children.

Were Adam and Eve black or white, were they left or right handed ... these may seem frivolous questions but it demonstrates that God meant there to be variety in His creation. Biological diversity is found in the realms of sexuality also.

When we examine the context and the original language of the Biblical evidence, as well as the historical setting, there is no unequivocal condemnation of homosexual relationships. Abusive or promiscuous heterosexual and homosxual acts are equally wrong.

[kod]

Originally posted by Loser For Jesus


Perhaps we just need to accept God's Word for what it says, instead of trying to twist it to suit our own ideas or "cultural" preconceptions.

If the God's Word states that something is an abomination which we believe is - or should be - morally acceptable, why are we so arrogant as to think it is the interpretation of the Bible that must change to accomodate our moral opinions, rather than the other way around??

love in Christ,

Malcolm

 

When you say "twist it", I would say "understand it".

The debate about women pastors in this forum is an indication that it is necessary to study and interpret what the Bible says.

It is not always easy (2 Peter 3:16). It is only easy when we approach these issues with a predetermined mind set.

 

[LouisBooth]

KOD it makes it very clear in romans that it is unnatural and sinful.

[wblastyn]

I posted this over at the Men's Forum, but since not everyone goes there:

Here is a quote from someone over at CARM.org, it's pretty much everything I've been trying to say:

Homosexuality is the longing of someone to identify with their own masculine/feminine inferiority issues via sex with the same gender
people are predisposed, but its not genetic(immutable)its fluid and can be changed. The issue is when the sexual arousal patterns get so embedded in the neurons it makes it difficult for them to come out of, but it would be possible.

[kod]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
KOD it makes it very clear in romans that it is unnatural and sinful.

When you examine Romans chapter 1 in detail you find some interesting insights.

Paul is describing people who engaged in promiscuous sexual practices related to pagan idol worship (v23)  - a not uncommon occurrence in Corinth from where this letter was written.. 

The words "exchanged" or "gave up"  (v 26 &27) indicate that Paul is referring to heterosexual people who indulged in homosexual practices. Most homosexuals are aware of their orientation from a very early age and therefore do not "give up" relations with the opposite sex"

The word "natural" more likely refers to a person's individual intrinsic nature, not some universal law of nature. 

"burned in their lust" (v27) does not describe the loving and supportive relationship that exists between many gay couples.

The use of the plural ("men with men") suggests promiscuous behaviour

"shameless acts" puts the emphasis on sexual behaviour, not love and relationship

The last part of this verse refers to the "penalty for their error" which is often interpreted as sexually transmitted disease - again, this would not apply to a monogamous couple.

People often interpret the words "them" and "they" in this chapter to mean "homosexuals". It is difficult to maintain this interpretation when you get to verse 29 where Paul lists diverse sins.

It is my understanding that this chapter condemns certain specific same sex behaviour but does not relate to a monogamous homosexual relationship.

 

 

 


 

[LouisBooth]

"Paul is describing people who engaged in promiscuous sexual practices related to pagan idol worship (v23) - a not uncommon occurrence in Corinth from where this letter was written.. "

Even if you want to say that, which is not the case, the nature of the relationship between men lusting after men is unnatural and therefore wrong. This think that happend was not having to do with the second part of the passage. As a result of them turning away from God, he said, go ahead, do what you want then they started practicing in sinful practices, such as homosexuality. One doesn't have to do with the other. It wasn't they participating in this worshiping other gods that made the homosexuality wrong, it was the actual act of homosexuality that was wrong. Look at the verse. because of this God gave them over to their lusts, this is something that exsisted long before their turning away from God. but it is still wrong according to Paul who calls it unnatural and akins it to murder, malice and all other kinds of evil.

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by kod
It is refreshing to hear people opposed to homosexuality not using the "all [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] will burn in hell" type of language.

The church's attitude to many minority groups has changed over time. Most brides no longer promise to obey, nor are women prohibited from speaking in church. The beating of children is no longer justified by "spare the rod and spoil the child". Our attitude to divorcees has changed, and we no longer cast demons out of people who have epilepsy. 

We cannot deny that our understanding of the Bible has developed and undergone changes, most would say for the better.

When homosexuals are excluded from the church, there are two consequences. They will be more likely to engage in a promiscuous lifestyle, or they will be inclined to hide their sexual orientation and perhaps even marry and have children.

Were Adam and Eve black or white, were they left or right handed ... these may seem frivolous questions but it demonstrates that God meant there to be variety in His creation. Biological diversity is found in the realms of sexuality also.

When we examine the context and the original language of the Biblical evidence, as well as the historical setting, there is no unequivocal condemnation of homosexual relationships. Abusive or promiscuous heterosexual and homosxual acts are equally wrong.

Homosexuals can come to my church. Homosexuals who have homosexual sex will be cut off from fellowship, and possibly expelled for being immoral, depending on the individual situation.

You are right, there is no unequivocal evidence that condems (specifically) a long term homosexual relationship. But you are missing something here. Do homosexuals who live together have sex? Yes, otherwise they would not be partners. So what does the Bible say about homosexual sex? SIN!
You might also note that the Bible does not specifically address what type of tooth paste a homosexual should use, but this is not liberty to justify the homosexual lifestyle. The bottom line (which you need to see) is that homosexuality is against God's design, and it is sin, there is no playing this off.

Are you asking all this because you are homosexual ?

[ZiSunka]

When homosexuals are excluded from the church, there are two consequences. They will be more likely to engage in a promiscuous lifestyle, or they will be inclined to hide their sexual orientation and perhaps even marry and have children.

How interesting that you have made these the only two choices, and placed the blame on the church, not the homosexual.

Do you realize that every person decides for him/herself what actions they are going to make in their lives and that casting blame for personal choices is an inherently immature behavior?

I think it is wrong for you to assume there are only two actions gays can make--to embrace or to deny. What about the role of growth and change? I would think that we as Christians would all understand and embrace growth and change; it's one of the big themes of the NT.

And as for it all being the fault of a rejecting church--what do you expect the church to do? Fling its doors open and allow sin to overrun without any expectations of character or self-control? There are many unmarried people in the church, should we allow them to engage in non-marital sexual activity? If some sex outside of marriage is okay, why not all sex?

Gays need to come to grips with the fact that homosexuality is not embraced by the church because it is not embraced by God.

[Loser For Jesus]

Originally posted by lambslove
There are many unmarried people in the church, should we allow them to engage in non-marital sexual activity? If some sex outside of marriage is okay, why not all sex?

You know, this is an interesting point that has often come up when I've spoken to homosexuals before. Often, one of their arguments is that homosexuality is part of "who they are" and why should they deny that? Of course, the fact is that sin is part of who we all are, and a big part of being a Christian is specifically to deny our sinful nature by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The fact that I'm a heterosexual isn't an excuse for me to go out and have sex whenever and with whomever I choose, whether its in a "loving relationship" or not. I had to deny my sinful nature and choose not to have sex until I got married (just a few months ago!). In fact, I didn't even "date" - I just waited on God and tried to devote my life as a single man to serving Him.

Now, if someone wants to call themselves a "homosexual" and claim its genetic or "part of who they are" or whatever, that's fine. The point is that God intended sex to be part of marriage, and marriage to be between a man and a woman. Whether you're a "homosexual" or a "heterosexual", anything outside of that is sin. Period. All the arguments about "temple prostitution" and "pagan rituals" don't make the slightest bit of difference to that one basic fact.

People are not defined by their sexuality. They are defined by their relationship to God. Either they will deny themselves and be obedient to God and receive life by His grace, or they will indulge themselves in disobedience and receive death as the wages of sin.

Deu 30:19-20  This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live (20) and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.

love in Christ,

Malcolm

[DaveKerwin]

Right on Malcomb !

[Knight]

Well said LFJ.

That is one of the best descriptions on this topic I've read. Good job.

My biggest gripe with homosexuals is the fact that they've assigned "minority status" to themselves. The claim is that they were born this way and they have no choice in the matter. The simple fact is that they HAVE chosen this lifestyle. They're now a protected group and if we rebuke this activity we're accused of being hateful and prejudice. This has become a new weapon for satan against Christians.

To combat this we need to do exactly what you've done. Explain what God's Word says about this issue and stress that is the sin we oppose and not the sinner. God's Word commands us to hate the sin and love the sinner. I'll admit that this is difficult at times but we must always persevere and trust the Lord.

[Brian45]

Originally posted by kod
I started a thread on this subject in another forum but it seems to have been hijacked by non believers. I am interested in discussing the issue with those who accept the authority of the Bible.

I am aware of the 7 main references to same sex behaviour in the Bible but feel that these do NOT conclusively show that a monogamous homosexual relationship is wrong.

For example, the reference in Leviticus 18:22 ("You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination") requires us to examine the meaning of the word "abomination". 

The verse immediately preceding Lev 18:22 suggests this was a prohibition to participate in pagan idol worship which involved these practices, and therefore is not refering to homosexual relationships.

In the Old Testament there are several Hebrew words translated as "abomination" and most of them refer to things that we do not believe to be morally wrong (eg  a woman wearing pants  Deut 22:5).

 

 

 

 

 

 

You don't give up do you Kod ?

May I ask If your church is located in or around Sydney  ?

[wblastyn]

My biggest gripe with homosexuals is the fact that they've assigned "minority status" to themselves. The claim is that they were born this way and they have no choice in the matter. The simple fact is that they HAVE chosen this lifestyle. They're now a protected group and if we rebuke this activity we're accused of being hateful and prejudice. This has become a new weapon for satan against Christians.
Exactly, this annoys me so much. If we try and oppose them we are called hateful, homophobic bigots. They claim they were born this way and that is who they are. What will happen if homosexuality is proven as a developmental disorder, which is changeable. What will happen to their "it's normal, we were born this way".

To combat this we need to do exactly what you've done. Explain what God's Word says about this issue and stress that is the sin we oppose and not the sinner. God's Word commands us to hate the sin and love the sinner. I'll admit that this is difficult at times but we must always persevere and trust the Lord.

Well all we can do is spread the truth, except we can't make people listen or believe what we say.

[kod]

Originally posted by Brian45
You don't give up do you Kod ?

May I ask If your church is located in or around Sydney  ?

The Uniting Church is Australia wide.    

And, yes, I do give up ... frequently!  But God's love gets me back on my feet again. 

"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is well meant, I'm sure, but to most homosexual people sounds like someone saying to an Aborigine "Love you, brother, but hate the colour of your skin".

 

 

 

[Brian45]

Originally posted by kod
The Uniting Church is Australia wide.    

And, yes, I do give up ... frequently!  But God's love gets me back on my feet again. 

"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is well meant, I'm sure, but to most homosexual people sounds like someone saying to an Aborigine "Love you, brother, but hate the colour of your skin".

 

 

 

 

I find it very interesting that your church is the uniting church , as I recently found an advertisment in my local news paper from the uniting church in my town .

They were asking the local community for supporters to go with them on a trip to Sydney to help support homosexual rights at the gay mardigra .

Well at least I know now where your comming from  , and it was what I thought in the begining on your other thread .

The only reason I kept posting bible verses was because you continued to twist the scriptures to suit yourself .

[Chris†opher Paul]

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman


Pretty clear to me.

[seebs]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Pretty clear to me.

Okay, imagine, if you will, that God decided he was a Vikings fan, and that people who liked the Green Bay Packers were an "abomination" to Him. One of his laws might well be:

Wear not green and yellow clothing, for it is abhorrent to me. And of the rubber hats that look like cheese, partake not.

So, fast forward two thousand years, until today's football teams are long forgotten.

Those instructions would be really clear... but would be *totally misunderstood* if they were taken at face value.

The text you quote is in the middle of a long list of cultural and religious practices which are banned to separate the Israelites from their neighbors. I suspect it is meant to be interpreted only within that context.

Some of those practices (sacrificing children) are morally wrong anyway, *because they violate other rules*, even if you're sacrificing them to something other than Molech. Others (mixed fabrics) are totally irrelevant today. The only way to tell is to look at the two commandments that Christ said all of the law and the prophets depend on, and see how something measures up to them.

At that point, we find that there's not much to be said either way on a lot of issues, which fits with the underlying message Christ brought us; we're adults now, and we can make moral decisions competently.

[Chris†opher Paul]

The New Testament forbids it as well. Again, very clear to me.

[Knight]

Originally posted by seebs
At that point, we find that there's not much to be said either way on a lot of issues, which fits with the underlying message Christ brought us; we're adults now, and we can make moral decisions competently.

Moral decisions for a Christian should not be made independant of the Bible.

Also, Christ did not say that. He did say:

Matthew 5:17

<SUP>17</SUP>"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

[wblastyn]

What is the world coming to when Christians justify sin :(

[seebs]

Well, it's probably coming to the same thing it was coming to when Christians started to justify the "freeing" of slaves, despite a Papal edict from the early 1st millennium saying that anyone who tries to free a slave is anathema to the church, or when people started talking about "love" and "committment" as if that would justify mixed-race marriages.

Condemning things you aren't tempted by is easy, but that doesn't make it compatible with God's word.

[markd]

<DT><B>Ro 1:26 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ro+1:26&amp;version=nas&amp;st=1&amp;sd=1&amp;new=1&amp;showtools=1)</B> - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+1:26&amp;version=nas&amp;context=1&amp;showtools=1)
<DD>For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is <B>unnatural</B></DD>For me this says it all.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by seebs
Okay, imagine, if you will, that God decided he was a Vikings fan, and that people who liked the Green Bay Packers were an "abomination" to Him. One of his laws might well be:

Wear not green and yellow clothing, for it is abhorrent to me. And of the rubber hats that look like cheese, partake not.

Those evil Packers. ;)

However, God is not a Vikings fan. Otherwise, he would help out more during the playoffs. :sigh:

[kod]

Originally posted by Brian45
&nbsp;

I find it very interesting that your church is the uniting church , as I recently found an advertisment in my local news paper from the uniting church in my town .

They were asking the local community for supporters to go with them on a trip to Sydney to help support homosexual rights at the gay mardigra .

Well at least I know now where your comming from&nbsp; , and it was what I thought in the begining on your other thread .

The only reason I kept posting bible verses was because you continued to twist the scriptures to suit yourself .

&nbsp;

I don't think it's helpful to say that others "twist" the Scriptures.&nbsp; We are all trying our best to understand God's word.&nbsp;

I have never been to the Mardis Gras because I do not approve of public displays like that.

I find that a discussion of homosexuality among Christians is always a good test of the&nbsp;Fruits of the Spirit, especially gentleness and patience.&nbsp;

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

[kod]

Originally posted by s0uljah
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman.

Pretty clear to me.

"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man ... for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God"&nbsp; (Deut 22:5)

Pretty clear to me.

Or, on second thoughts, maybe I need to consider the full context.

[LouisBooth]

Agreed KOD, because people like to stretch the text as far as they can to say no no..this isn't homosexuals he is talking about, even though the text does plainly says it.. ;)

[kod]

Originally posted by wblastyn
What is the world coming to when Christians justify sin :(

Like war you mean?

[kod]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Agreed KOD, because people like to stretch the text as far as they can to say no no..this isn't homosexuals he is talking about, even though the text does plainly says it.. ;)

I think, Louis, that even in your opinion, being a homosexual is not a sin, rather it is homosexual behaviour.

I have never denied that the Bible condemns homosexual behaviour, but the relevant passages do so in a context of promiscuity, prostitution, pedophilia or pagan worship.

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

[LouisBooth]

"I think, Louis, that even in your opinion, being a homosexual is not a sin, rather it is homosexual behaviour. "

According to Christ, the though is a sin also :)

Ahh..the old its okay if you don't do it lustfully trick. Nope, the passages are talking about the actions in general, not in a specific context like that. Its unnatural, period. :)

[kod]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Ahh..the old its okay if you don't do it lustfully trick. Nope, the passages are talking about the actions in general, not in a specific context like that. Its unnatural, period. :)

Ahh ... the old "unnatural" argument.

Is it natural for humans to fly?

Do same sex relationships occur in nature, eg among animals?

Would it be "natural" for a man with a homosexual orientation to have sex with a woman?

[kod]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Nope, the passages are talking about the actions in general, not in a specific context like that.

I&nbsp;will accept you can argue (although I don't agree) that&nbsp;one could generalize that all homosexual behaviour is sinful. However, to deny that a context exists is just not factual, eg Paul in Romans 1 is quite obviously talking about idolatry as well as sexual behaviour.&nbsp; The relevance of this context is what is being debated.

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by kod
Ahh ... the old "unnatural" argument.

Is it natural for humans to fly?

Do same sex relationships occur in nature, eg among animals?

Would it be "natural" for a man with a homosexual orientation to have sex with a woman?

To head up the "just because animals do it doesn't mean it's okay" response, what is natural is not always moral. The point (I believe) that kod is making is that because it is found in nature, one cannot say that it is imoral because it is natural.

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by kod
Like war you mean?

Are you saying that war is sin?

A time of war and a time of peace ecc 3.

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by kod
I think, Louis, that even in your opinion, being a homosexual is not a sin, rather it is homosexual behaviour.

I have never denied that the Bible condemns homosexual behaviour, but the relevant passages do so in a context of promiscuity, prostitution, pedophilia or pagan worship.

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

So its ok to be gay, just as long as you don't have sex??

I don't understand what that means.
What is the gay lifestyle, that you like so much?

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by kod
Ahh ... the old "unnatural" argument.

Is it natural for humans to fly?

Do same sex relationships occur in nature, eg among animals?

Would it be "natural" for a man with a homosexual orientation to have sex with a woman?

"ahh...the old"

Ahhh the old type of debateing through manipulation trick. :kiss:

[kod]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
So its ok to be gay, just as long as you don't have sex??
I don't understand what that means.

What is the gay lifestyle, that you like so much?

&nbsp;

To answer the first question first:&nbsp; there are many people who have a homosexual orientation who lead celibate lives.&nbsp; Most Christians who "treat" homosexuals&nbsp; do not condemn these people&nbsp;as sinners.

Second question:&nbsp; I am sorry but I do not&nbsp;know what a "gay lifestyle" is.&nbsp; &nbsp;I have come across as much variety and diversity of lifestyle&nbsp;among&nbsp;homosexual people as there is among heterosexual people. - some happy, some unhappy; some celibate, some monogamous, some promiscuous; some are believers and some are not.&nbsp;

I am not aware of saying that I like or dislike homosexuality.&nbsp; I just try to be non judemental, and have an open mind on God's Word. I don't think I have even claimed that my point of view is the only right one ... unlike some other posters&nbsp; ;)

[kod]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Are you saying that war is sin?

A time of war and a time of peace ecc 3.

&nbsp;

Are you suggesting that we should use the Old Testament as a guide to making war?

"Then they (Israel) utterly destroyed all in the city, both men and women, young and old ..."&nbsp; Joshua 6

This is yet another example that Jesus Christ taught a new way.&nbsp; (And you know what, HE never condemned homosexuals.)

Funny how some Christians think that two men making love is worse than two men trying to kill each other.&nbsp;

[seebs]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
So its ok to be gay, just as long as you don't have sex??


That's certainly the current Catholic teaching, as I understand it.


I don't understand what that means.
What is the gay lifestyle, that you like so much?

I don't think kod is arguing for any particular lifestyle. I think, rather, that the argument is that there is no such thing as the "gay lifestyle" any more than there's a "straight lifestyle", and that all such generalizations are worthless.

Imagine, if you will, a priest, who is celibate. Does that mean he's "not heterosexual"? Not particularly. Does the fact that he's still heterosexual mean he's breaking his vows? Obviously not.

So, why would it be any different if he were gay? If the vow is to not have sex, he's doing just fine.

So... if this gay guy, feeling that he's called to celibacy, becomes a priest and devotes his life to God, are you saying his lifestyle is bad?

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by kod
&nbsp;

To answer the first question first:&nbsp; there are many people who have a homosexual orientation who lead celibate lives.&nbsp; Most Christians who "treat" homosexuals&nbsp; do not condemn these people&nbsp;as sinners.

Second question:&nbsp; I am sorry but I do not&nbsp;know what a "gay lifestyle" is.&nbsp; &nbsp;I have come across as much variety and diversity of lifestyle&nbsp;among&nbsp;homosexual people as there is among heterosexual people. - some happy, some unhappy; some celibate, some monogamous, some promiscuous; some are believers and some are not.&nbsp;

I am not aware of saying that I like or dislike homosexuality.&nbsp; I just try to be non judemental, and have an open mind on God's Word. I don't think I have even claimed that my point of view is the only right one ... unlike some other posters&nbsp; ;)

Ok you have come across alot of different lifestyles, now what is a gay lifestyle?

What is being gay? Is it not the attraction of the same sex?

I believe that there are people who "think" that they are gay.
Then there are those that have feelings for this lifestyle but know that it is wrong. People just don't come out of the womb gay, no more than people who come out of the womb a serial killer or thief. They slowly become that way. I know how the devil works, he has tried that trick on me, but I told him, there is no way I am going to find love in another mans hairy a$#. :(
I believe that everyone should get married, either man and wife, or human and God. If you don't marry the opposite sex, then marry God.
God said, it is not good for man to be alone.

I would be friends with someone who struggles in this area, so much as they beleived it was wrong. If they were in my prayer group, I would like to hear some confessions, and prayers to get them back into what God has for them. God's way is the best way, even if your feelings don't agree at the time. Give God the opertunity to change you from the inside out on any sin, not just the gay lifestyle.

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by kod
&nbsp;

Are you suggesting that we should use the Old Testament as a guide to making war?

"Then they (Israel) utterly destroyed all in the city, both men and women, young and old ..."&nbsp; Joshua 6

This is yet another example that Jesus Christ taught a new way.&nbsp; (And you know what, HE never condemned homosexuals.)

Funny how some Christians think that two men making love is worse than two men trying to kill each other.&nbsp;

God told them to make war. If he told me to make war, then I would listen.
When 9/11 happened, guess what, its time for war!

What is Jesus known as? The word of God.
What is the bible known as? The word of God.

Two men making lust is sin, me killing someone in war is not a sin, if the war is justified like 9/11 or WW2. Everyone dies, sometimes people choose there way to die, like the 9/11 terrorism attacks. Those guys choose there fate when they did that.

Kod, God wanted me to ask you something.
Why are you a Christian?
Why do you believe that there is a God?

[LouisBooth]

"Ahh ... the old "unnatural" argument.

Is it natural for humans to fly? "

*chuckles* nope its not natural for humans to fly, so when you can fly UNDER YOUR OWN POWER, let me know. :)

[ServantOfTheLord]

Sin is sin. The Bible very clearly states in Leviticus and in Romans that homosexuality is a sin against God. But, so is stealing, lying and murdering.

The difference is that there are no big groups of people lobbying to make stealing, lying, murdering, etc. legal and acceptable.

Unfortunately, due to the fervor of many gay rights groups/activists we in the body of Christ become outraged and retaliate with hatred instead of the love that Christ intended. Remember, we must hate the sin and love the sinner.

Now, I do believe that if you truly surrender your heart to the Lord Jesus, through the process of sanctification, He can and will remove the homosexual thoughts from you. Until you reach that point though it is advisable to abstain from homosexual behavior just as it is advisable for me as a single heterosexual woman to abstain from sex with a man until I am married.

Leviticus 18:22 " `Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." ~ NIV

Romans 1:26 "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." ~ NIV

Also, to those who say they are genetically predisposed to being homosexual, that they were born that way and cannot help it ... that is a lie. My God would not make people homosexual when He clearly states what an abomination it is. That is like me saying that He created me to be permiscuous(?) so it's not my fault if I have sex with a man before I get married. That whole line of thought is a cop out. But, unfortunately that is the way this society is going. No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions. It's always soemone elses fault. Homosexuality, just like any other sin, is a choice.

Sexual perversion and immorality is a tool that satan uses against the world. It is dececrating the beautiful blood covenant that God created for husband and wife to share. Any sex outside of a marriage between a man and woman is sinful and shameful.

But remember ... through the blood of Christ all things can be cleansed! Praise Him for that!

In His Service,

Sandy

[Knight]

Not to agree with the genetic predisposition argument. (I can't logicaly discount it but it has not yet been proven.)

If homosexuality is proven to be at least partly genetic nothing will be proven by that. The homosexual lifestyle will still be sin. There are those who are predisposed to alcoholism. Are these people exempt because of their predisposition? Is drunkenness still a sin for them? No and Yes.

If one takes this to its logical conclusion then all of humanity is genetically predisposed to sin because of the fall. This changes nothing. We still need to repent and turn to Christ.

It is still a choice to practice a homosexual lifestyle regardless of any predisposition.

[EJO]

"Also, to those who say they are genetically predisposed to being homosexual, that they were born that way and cannot help it ... that is a lie. My God would not make people homosexual when He clearly states what an abomination it is. That is like me saying that He created me to be permiscuous(?) so it's not my fault if I have sex with a man before I get married. That whole line of thought is a cop out. But, unfortunately that is the way this society is going. No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions. It's always soemone elses fault. Homosexuality, just like any other sin, is a choice."

AMEN!! Servant of the Lord!
I have a close fiend who lived the gay "lifestyle" (define however you want to) for 11 years. That was a long time ago, NOW- he worshipd Jesus and follows God. He is married, for like 10 years now. He has three sons. They serve in the church.
Jesus redeems us back to a right relationship with God. Read the first chapter of Ephesians.
God see's all sins the same; murder, stealing, lust, lies, gossip. but He has also wwashed them away with His sons blood, for all those who believe in Him, and SUBMIT to His authority, in our daily life.
Sure you will stumble at times, like Peter walking on the water... but keep your self focused on Jesus. He will give us all mercy and grace.

God Bless!

[kod]

For any homosexuals who feel the need to make changes in their lives, I suggest you go to
www.ewm.org
It is one of the more understanding programs of change I've encountered.
It begins with two ideas
1. homosexual orientation is not a choice
2. homosexual orientation is not a sin

I believe that change is possible for some people, and for those unhappy with their life, it is worth a try.

[LouisBooth]

KOD, you're wrong, homosexuality is a sin, it is a choice. It is now and always will be just like any other sin. You can try and rationalize truth away all you want. the bible says its a sin, pure and simple.

[kod]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
KOD, you're wrong, homosexuality is a sin, it is a choice. It is now and always will be just like any other sin. You can try and rationalize truth away all you want. the bible says its a sin, pure and simple.

I really don't think you read my last post, Louis.

Fortunately some Bible based Christian groups manage to avoid harsh judgemental attitudes even though they do not agree with homosexual behaviour.

www.ewm.org (http://www.ewm.org)
"Eagles' Wings Ministry believes that there is a difference between a homosexual orientation, which is not chosen, and homosexual behavior, which is chosen. The Bible does not condemn a person for having a homosexual orientation, it speaks only about homosexual behavior. With this in mind, Eagles' Wings provides information and support to anyone who desires freedom from their homosexual orientation and behavior."&nbsp;&nbsp;

http://theparson.net/gays.html
"Our practical advice for the gay Christian is change your orientation if you can. If not, be celibate if you can. If not, be as moral (i.e. monogamous) as you can."&nbsp;

(David Hess, Pastor, West Henrietta Baptist Church)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;



&nbsp;

[kod]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
its a sin, pure and simple.

I'm not sure a sin can be "pure and simple"? ;)

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by kod
For any homosexuals who feel the need to make changes in their lives, I suggest you go to
www.ewm.org
It is one of the more understanding programs of change I've encountered.
It begins with two ideas
1. homosexual orientation is not a choice
2. homosexual orientation is not a sin

I believe that change is possible for some people, and for those unhappy with their life, it is worth a try.

True, it isn't a choice. The act of gay sex is the sin, not the natural attraction that some people feel.

[Chris†opher Paul]

My God would not make people homosexual when He clearly states what an abomination it is.


Then why would God make us with the tendency to sin in any way? This makes no sense.

[Chloe]

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLord
Sin is sin. The Bible very clearly states in Leviticus and in Romans that homosexuality is a sin against God. But, so is stealing, lying and murdering.

The difference is that there are no big groups of people lobbying to make stealing, lying, murdering, etc. legal and acceptable.

Unfortunately, due to the fervor of many gay rights groups/activists we in the body of Christ become outraged and retaliate with hatred instead of the love that Christ intended. Remember, we must hate the sin and love the sinner.

Now, I do believe that if you truly surrender your heart to the Lord Jesus, through the process of sanctification, He can and will remove the homosexual thoughts from you. Until you reach that point though it is advisable to abstain from homosexual behavior just as it is advisable for me as a single heterosexual woman to abstain from sex with a man until I am married.

Leviticus 18:22 " `Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." ~ NIV

Romans 1:26 "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." ~ NIV

Also, to those who say they are genetically predisposed to being homosexual, that they were born that way and cannot help it ... that is a lie. My God would not make people homosexual when He clearly states what an abomination it is. That is like me saying that He created me to be permiscuous(?) so it's not my fault if I have sex with a man before I get married. That whole line of thought is a cop out. But, unfortunately that is the way this society is going. No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions. It's always soemone elses fault. Homosexuality, just like any other sin, is a choice.

Sexual perversion and immorality is a tool that satan uses against the world. It is dececrating the beautiful blood covenant that God created for husband and wife to share. Any sex outside of a marriage between a man and woman is sinful and shameful.

But remember ... through the blood of Christ all things can be cleansed! Praise Him for that!

In His Service,

Sandy

&nbsp;

Amen!

If God says something is sin, an abomination, why do some insist on saying that it is not or deny that it applies today?&nbsp;

[LouisBooth]

"Fortunately some Bible based Christian groups manage to avoid harsh judgemental attitudes even though they do not agree with homosexual behaviour. "

As for the second site, they are saying 1. its a choice and 2. you shouldn't do it beause its a sin.

As for your post, I read it very carefully thanks, but that doesn't change that face that homosexuality is a sin, and its a choice.



"Then why would God make us with the tendency to sin in any way? This makes no sense."

SoulJ, it makes perfect sence. God DOESN'T make people gay or have gay tendencies. They choose to be that way, just as you choose to get drunk or you choose to have premarital sex. Its sin and its a choice.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Fortunately some Bible based Christian groups manage to avoid harsh judgemental attitudes even though they do not agree with homosexual behaviour. "

As for the second site, they are saying 1. its a choice and 2. you shouldn't do it beause its a sin.

As for your post, I read it very carefully thanks, but that doesn't change that face that homosexuality is a sin, and its a choice.



"Then why would God make us with the tendency to sin in any way? This makes no sense."

SoulJ, it makes perfect sence. God DOESN'T make people gay or have gay tendencies. They choose to be that way, just as you choose to get drunk or you choose to have premarital sex. Its sin and its a choice.

Homosexuality - the attraction to people of the same sex. -- Not a choice.

Homosexual acts -- A choice.

I can't understand why you have such trouble understanding this, unless you are consciously preventing yourself from understanding.

[kod]

Originally posted by Chloe
&nbsp; If God says something is sin, an abomination, why do some insist on saying that it is not or deny that it applies today?&nbsp;

&nbsp;

You are certainly entitled to that point of view, and you may even be right, but here's a challenge for you.

Go to http://www.blueletterbible.org/&nbsp;and search for the word "abomination".&nbsp; Then ask yourself if you do any of the things described as an "abomination" in the Old Testament.&nbsp; A lot of women who wear pants will be surprised by Deut 22:5.

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
Homosexuality - the attraction to people of the same sex. -- Not a choice.

Homosexual acts -- A choice.

I can't understand why you have such trouble understanding this, unless you are consciously preventing yourself from understanding.

I understand what you are saying but it is a choice to fight those feelings.
You can believe in a lie that you are gay, and decide not to act on it. Or you can believe that God wants to set you free from this lie. Your choice.

It may take some time for God to destroy the lies that caused you to believe like this. Just remember that God's way of life is better than ours.
Your feelings may tell you different, but when God shows you the truth, they will change.

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by kod
&nbsp;

You are certainly entitled to that point of view, and you may even be right, but here's a challenge for you.

Go to http://www.blueletterbible.org/&nbsp;and search for the word "abomination".&nbsp; Then ask yourself if you do any of the things described as an "abomination" in the Old Testament.&nbsp; A lot of women who wear pants will be surprised by Deut 22:5.

Are you trying to justify your actions based on other people?

[kod]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Are you trying to justify your actions based on other people?

No, just trying to encourage people to look more closely at the meaning of the word abomination in that context (compare the discussion of "day" in Genesis, or the word "one" in "I and my Father are one", &nbsp;and you might see what I mean).

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by kod
No, just trying to encourage people to look more closely at the meaning of the word abomination in that context (compare the discussion of "day" in Genesis, or the word "one" in "I and my Father are one", &nbsp;and you might see what I mean).

I am not sure where you are going with this, so where are you going with this?

Whats wrong with "one day" when God made certain things?
Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are one. One God, three parts.

The gay lifestyle.
Jesus said if look on a women(I assume she's married, or your married) with lust you have commited adultery in your heart.
Its the same if you look at the same sex lifestyle.

[LouisBooth]

"Homosexuality - the attraction to people of the same sex. -- Not a choice."

yes, it is a choice. the sin of that thinking is the same as the sin of the action. Christ himself said that. If you have adulterious thoughs in your mind, then you have sinned. Same with homosexuality.

[LouisBooth]

Kod..I'm going to do an indepth study on th Pentateuch, so I'll let you know. I'm willing to bet that my view will be more the vindicated.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Homosexuality - the attraction to people of the same sex. -- Not a choice."

yes, it is a choice. the sin of that thinking is the same as the sin of the action. Christ himself said that. If you have adulterious thoughs in your mind, then you have sinned. Same with homosexuality.

So, temptation is a sin?

[seebs]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Are you trying to justify your actions based on other people?

I think his point is well taken - many of the things called "abomination" in the OT are *unambiguously* merely cultural constraints to keep the Hebrews pure. This doesn't mean that they're all OK - it just means that merely being
condemned in Leviticus isn't a good reason not to do something. Further study seems to lead down any of several paths from here, and all of them have people whose relationship with God seems to be pretty strong walking down them... It's not something where you can easily point at one group and say "they're not seriously trying to understand God's will". God's will on this one is, if we study it honestly, apparently fairly cloudy, simply because devout people can come to such utterly different readings.

I take this as a sign that there are probably more important battles to be fought, and try not to get caught up in what is, essentially, a pointless debate.

[LouisBooth]

"So, temptation is a sin?"

No, temptation and going over it in your mind are 2 very different things.

Thinking of homosexual acts is a sin.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"So, temptation is a sin?"

No, temptation and going over it in your mind are 2 very different things.

Thinking of homosexual acts is a sin.

You said homosexual attractions are a sin. You did not limit it to thinking about homosexual acts. Since you make the distinction now, I ask you: is homosexuality, the attraction (initial temptation) to persons of the same sex sinful?

[GreenEyedLady]

A sin is a sin.
I don't think that one can say that a homosexul cannot be saved. After all, murders, crimanals, liars, can be saved.

Sin is wrong regardless what kind of sin it is.
Revelation 21:8 _But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Homosexuality is just as bad as being a liar, if your NOT saved...all will have their part in the lake of fire as it says.

The only things that bother me about homosexuals is there right to say...we are sinners and we desrve to have rights. I don't see any alcolics asking for rights, nor any liars, murderors...ect...WHy should THEY think that rights should be given to sin? Doesn;'t ,make any sense to me.
Does this make sense???
GE

[LouisBooth]

"I ask you: is homosexuality, the attraction (initial temptation) to persons of the same sex sinful?"

Is thinking about murdering someone a sin?

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I ask you: is homosexuality, the attraction (initial temptation) to persons of the same sex sinful?"

Is thinking about murdering someone a sin?

Is the initial temptation to kill someone a sin? No.

Is continuing to comtemplate this temptation a sin? Yes.

Now, answer my initial question. Is homosexuality, the attration (initial temptation) to persons of the same sex, sinful?

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by seebs
I think his point is well taken - many of the things called "abomination" in the OT are *unambiguously* merely cultural constraints to keep the Hebrews pure. This doesn't mean that they're all OK - it just means that merely being
condemned in Leviticus isn't a good reason not to do something. Further study seems to lead down any of several paths from here, and all of them have people whose relationship with God seems to be pretty strong walking down them... It's not something where you can easily point at one group and say "they're not seriously trying to understand God's will". God's will on this one is, if we study it honestly, apparently fairly cloudy, simply because devout people can come to such utterly different readings.

I take this as a sign that there are probably more important battles to be fought, and try not to get caught up in what is, essentially, a pointless debate.

Its most definitly not pointless.

This guy agrees that the "act" of homosexuality is wrong, but the "lifestyle" isn't. I disagree.

I never said "they're not seriously trying to understand God's will".
Me personaly I don't think that this guy is Christian, I think he is a person of the gay community trying to attack the word of God.
God wanted me to ask kod, why he believed in God. So I did, and he hasn't answered me.
Immediatly after putting that post up, I looked up all of his posts and they were on two things war and gaylifestyle thats it.

[LouisBooth]

"Is the initial temptation to kill someone a sin? No."

Really? I think that's quite unbiblical. So you think the intial thought of having sex with a married women is also not a sin. Christ though differently :)

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Is the initial temptation to kill someone a sin? No."

Really? I think that's quite unbiblical. So you think the intial thought of having sex with a married women is also not a sin. Christ though differently :)

I assume you are refering to the sermon on the mount (since you only made reference to the Bible as a whole, I can't be sure).

The relevent passage (Mt 5):
21 "'You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "You shall not murder"; and "whoever murders shall be liable to judgement." 22 But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother [without cause] you will be liable to judgement; and if say Raca to [insult] a brother, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, "You fool," you will be liable to the hell of fire [Gehenna]. 23 So when you are offering your gift at the altar, if you remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with yoour accuser while you are on the way with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

27 "'You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already commited adultery with her in his heart.'"

(Italics represent differences in ancient authorities or the alternate translation)

Jesus is showing us that sin is not in the physical act but in our thoughts and intentions. If one is angry with another and desires to kill him or her but doesn't out of fear of punishment, one is as guilty as the murderer. Cowardice does not bring salvation. Anger is dangerous and should be pushed away. This does not mean that we are sinning when we feel angry. It's what we do with it, whether we let it boil within us that is important.

The same applies to lust. Looking at a woman (or a man) with lust and fantasizing about sexual encounters is dangerous. It leads to fornication, adultery, and the objectification of the person. However, the attraction that occurs at first glance, before the will can act, is just attraction.

[seebs]

Exactly! Lust and desire are *NOT* the same thing. Lust is a sin all the time, even in marriage. Desire is never a sin in and of itself, merely a quality of your body, like seeing or hearing.

[LouisBooth]

"However, the attraction that occurs at first glance, before the will can act, is just attraction."

Yes, it is because the act is inherently evil, thus the attraction is as well. Its an evil desire. Just like lust is an evil desire any way you put it.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"However, the attraction that occurs at first glance, before the will can act, is just attraction."

Yes, it is because the act is inherently evil, thus the attraction is as well. Its an evil desire. Just like lust is an evil desire any way you put it.

Sin is an act of the will. Something that happens before one can will it cannot be a sin.

[kod]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Kod..I'm going to do an indepth study on th Pentateuch, so I'll let you know. I'm willing to bet that my view will be more the vindicated.

Trouble is Louis, I don't bet -&nbsp;I think gambling is&nbsp;a sin!&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;:holy:

[kod]

Originally posted by GreenEyedLady
The only things that bother me about homosexuals is there right to say...we are sinners and we desrve to have rights. I don't see any alcolics asking for rights, nor any liars, murderors...ect...WHy should THEY think that rights should be given to sin? Doesn;'t ,make any sense to me.
Does this make sense???
GE

You raise a very interesting point.&nbsp; Many Christians who believe that homosexual behaviour is sinful, still support gay rights.&nbsp; Adoption is a very controversial one.&nbsp; Let me give you an example which appeared in our local paper (Australia).&nbsp; A member of parliament has lived with her female partner for 10 years. In that time she has contributed financially and emotionally to the children's welfare.&nbsp; The mother of the children would like&nbsp;this woman&nbsp;to be able to adopt the children if anything happened to her. Would you deny her that right?

[LouisBooth]

"Sin is an act of the will. Something that happens before one can will it cannot be a sin."

no, thoughts are the same. Your thought of lust is a sin, just like the action is a sin. Your thought of homosexuality is a sin just as the act is a sin.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Sin is an act of the will. Something that happens before one can will it cannot be a sin."

no, thoughts are the same. Your thought of lust is a sin, just like the action is a sin. Your thought of homosexuality is a sin just as the act is a sin.

:rolleyes:

Thoughts can be an act of the will. If someone is tempted and then continues to think about sinning, this is a sin. If someone is tempted but forces one's attention onto something else, it is not a sin.

[LouisBooth]

"If someone is tempted but forces one's attention onto something else, it is not a sin."

I'd say when the action itself is wrong and sinful, Christ said the thought was too...ie the adultery case :)

[SUNSTONE]

Thoughts are not sin, but if you dwell upon them it will manifest into sin. In other words, if you think on lust its just a matter of time before you commit the act.
Jesus was just showing a point that they were not clean on the inside, so they were definitly not clean on the outside.

This would be like me becoming Christian and thinking about drugs and sex. "oh how sweet those things are, nice and tasty but now I am a Christian, and I must stay in this prison, but I shall think on the dark side of life"
The battle is in are mind, think on things above, not on your past.

[seebs]

I think there's a certain question of how you're thinking about the undesirable impulses. If you spend all your time trying to enumerate all the specific sexual things you think might satisfy your lust, that's bad. If you spend a bit of time trying to figure out why lust is being such a problem for you, maybe that's good.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"If someone is tempted but forces one's attention onto something else, it is not a sin."

I'd say when the action itself is wrong and sinful, Christ said the thought was too...ie the adultery case :)

I have addressed that. I was the one who quoted scripture and walked through it. Of course, since you have explicitly cited any scripture, you may be refering to some personal revelation that Christ gave only to you. Otherwise, my answers are satisfactory.

[LouisBooth]

"Otherwise, my answers are satisfactory."

The passage clearly says that the pharisee had sinned by thinking about sleeping with that women. The though counts, sorry to tell ya FOD. mat 5 shows us the thought of sinning and wanting to do it is sin.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Otherwise, my answers are satisfactory."

The passage clearly says that the pharisee had sinned by thinking about sleeping with that women. The though counts, sorry to tell ya FOD. mat 5 shows us the thought of sinning and wanting to do it is sin.

The passage was part of the Sermon on the Mount, so Jesus was talking to His disciples, not the Pharisees.

Are you reading my posts? I quoted Matthew 5 and described the distinction between willed thoughts and an instantaneous desire. If a man sees a woman and thinks, "She's hot," and then directs his attention away from sex, he does not sin. If he instead starts to think about having an affair with her, he has commited adultery in his heart and has sinned.

[LouisBooth]

"The passage was part of the Sermon on the Mount, so Jesus was talking to His disciples, not the Pharisees."

Exactly. He was refering to this is how a pharisee acts. Read the passage for yourself.

"If a man sees a woman and thinks, "She's hot," and then directs his attention away from sex, he does not sin. "

What I should also point is that is a natural attraction, homosexuality is quite unnatural as well, and thus also sinful in thought and in deed.

"If a man sees a woman and thinks, "She's hot," and then directs his attention away from sex"

This has nothing to do with the act of lust. Being attacted to a man has everything to do with homosexuatlity and the action, being attacted to a women does not because it is natural. homosexuatlity is not.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"The passage was part of the Sermon on the Mount, so Jesus was talking to His disciples, not the Pharisees."

Exactly. He was refering to this is how a pharisee acts. Read the passage for yourself.

"If a man sees a woman and thinks, "She's hot," and then directs his attention away from sex, he does not sin. "

What I should also point is that is a natural attraction, homosexuality is quite unnatural as well, and thus also sinful in thought and in deed.

"If a man sees a woman and thinks, "She's hot," and then directs his attention away from sex"

This has nothing to do with the act of lust. Being attacted to a man has everything to do with homosexuatlity and the action, being attacted to a women does not because it is natural. homosexuatlity is not.

:idea: Okay, now I understand what you think, and your previous posts are making sense. However, I still disagree. Attraction to someone other than one's wife is just as much an attraction to sin as homosexual attraction. To make a distinction between the two is dishonest.

[seebs]

I think it's interesting that "unnatural" is still being used as a description, although it's unclear how unnatural relates to sin; the only usage I can find Biblically suggests that God did something "unnatural" when He grafted the Gentiles onto the Jews for purposes of His new covenant. Certainly, it's been adequately shown (we had quite the thread over in Apologetics) that homosexuality "occurs in nature". Since the metaphysical sense is used at least once of something God did, I think it's pretty clear that merely being "unnatural" is no testimony to whether something is sin or not.

I stick with foolsparade: Temptation is temptation, and creating an artificial distinction serves no purpose other than to make it easier for us to feel that we are somehow superior to those who suffer temptations we ourselves do not.

[LouisBooth]

"Attraction to someone other than one's wife is just as much an attraction to sin as homosexual attraction. To make a distinction between the two is dishonest."

Now you're on sticky ground. One is not inherently sinful, for if a man is single that attraction is okay, but no matter what the homosexual attraction is sinful.

"Since the metaphysical sense is used at least once of something God did, I think it's pretty clear that merely being "unnatural" is no testimony to whether something is sin or not."

*sigh* seebs, again you're bringing up things I have already addressed. Nature itself is fallen, thus you can't say it is as God created it. So this its in nature is a faulty argument to a christian. Thus homosexuality is unnatural, sinful and wrong.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Attraction to someone other than one's wife is just as much an attraction to sin as homosexual attraction. To make a distinction between the two is dishonest."

Now you're on sticky ground. One is not inherently sinful, for if a man is single that attraction is okay, but no matter what the homosexual attraction is sinful.

So now it's just heterosexual singles who can have sinless attractions. :rolleyes: The problem is that heterosexual singles cannot act on their attractions either (at least in the short term) without sinning (fornication). Just admit that you're wrong on this point and we can stop wasting our time.

"Since the metaphysical sense is used at least once of something God did, I think it's pretty clear that merely being "unnatural" is no testimony to whether something is sin or not."

*sigh* seebs, again you're bringing up things I have already addressed. Nature itself is fallen, thus you can't say it is as God created it. So this its in nature is a faulty argument to a christian. Thus homosexuality is unnatural, sinful and wrong.

So when you refer to what is natural, it has nothing to do with Nature and everything to do with something that exists in only in your mind and allegedly in God's mind. If God meant that to be natural, why didn't He make it that way?

[seebs]

I think it's pretty clear that this is an issue on which people come to various conclusions based on upbringing and teaching. It is, of course, possible to dismiss those who disagree with you for various reasons; one might even accuse them of not being Christians, as has been popular during many previous debates within the faith.

In the end, I think all we can say with certainty is that a lot of people are pretty cruel to gays, and a lot of gays seem to be pretty consistent in saying they don't want to be gay, and would change if they could... and those people, whatever anyone may think, are suffering, and it is our job as Christians to bring them comfort, and help them as best we can.

[LouisBooth]

"So now it's just heterosexual singles who can have sinless attractions. "

One is natural the other isn't :)

"If God meant that to be natural, why didn't He make it that way?"

Read genesis. He did. Then Adam fell and the world changed as well.

Seebs, I do agree that many people are very cruel to homosexuals simplying because they are quite forward with people about their sin. We should accept them, but not their sin. That's not always a very easy thing for a human to do. Not to compare but the same usually goes for a ex-con, someone who has broken our trust, etc...Its hard to be Godly and not human.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"So now it's just heterosexual singles who can have sinless attractions. "

One is natural the other isn't :)

"If God meant that to be natural, why didn't He make it that way?"

Read genesis. He did. Then Adam fell and the world changed as well.

Seebs, I do agree that many people are very cruel to homosexuals simplying because they are quite forward with people about their sin. We should accept them, but not their sin. That's not always a very easy thing for a human to do. Not to compare but the same usually goes for a ex-con, someone who has broken our trust, etc...Its hard to be Godly and not human.

Jesus does not seem to make the distinctions that you do. He treats all sinful acts equally. The distinction between "natural" sin and "unnatural" sin is yours alone.

[seebs]

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
Jesus does not seem to make the distinctions that you do. He treats all sinful acts equally. The distinction between "natural" sin and "unnatural" sin is yours alone.

My guess is that he's referring to Paul's description in Romans 1... but I think that the usage of "unnatural" there is not the same as the sense in which Louis thinks homosexuality is "unnatural". I figure, if God can do something "unnatural", then unnatural does not imply sinful.

Catholic teachings include a distinction between "mortal" and "venial" sin, which I'm not entirely clear on. I don't think it's just a question of "natural", though; "missing Mass" is a potential mortal sin, and I don't think that's because it's "unnatural".

I tend to assume that what makes the sin serious is your understanding and attitude towards God, not the specific action in question.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by seebs
My guess is that he's referring to Paul's description in Romans 1... but I think that the usage of "unnatural" there is not the same as the sense in which Louis thinks homosexuality is "unnatural". I figure, if God can do something "unnatural", then unnatural does not imply sinful.

Catholic teachings include a distinction between "mortal" and "venial" sin, which I'm not entirely clear on. I don't think it's just a question of "natural", though; "missing Mass" is a potential mortal sin, and I don't think that's because it's "unnatural".

I tend to assume that what makes the sin serious is your understanding and attitude towards God, not the specific action in question.

While Louis' distinction of natural and unnatural comes from Romans (probably), his claim that homosexual attraction is a sin is based on the sermon on the mount in Matthew. During the sermon on the mount, Jesus treats all sins equally and does not make any distinctions. It is therefore wrong to introduce our own distinctions when interpreting His sermon.

[GreenEyedLady]

It doesn't matter who does what when OR if you are single or not. You are still sinning against the Lord if you are single and you LUST after another woman...especially if you don't know if she is married. You committ adultry in your heart.
Also...the thought of Lusting after one...can lead to fornication of the heart which is also a sin.
The point is that these gays who are given children is just plain WRONG.
Not only does it provide a sinnful enviroment for the child, but the child also grows up with distorted morals.
Why would they NOT concider an alcholic as a parent? Or a murderer...How about a pedifile?????
ITs the same thing...they are all people living their lives in sin.
Regarless of how hard we try to live our lives for the Lord..we will always be sinners. Even if all you do is tell a little lie..you still need a saviour.
So, in my thoughts, it doesn't matter what kind of sin it is....it is still a sin
GEL :wave:

[sn00zles]

Homosexuality is sinful
Homosexual tendencies are sinful

Is it the choice of some that they have homosexual tendencies?&nbsp; Is it anyone's choice that we continue sinning despite knowing the words of God?

No, I believe some people were born with homosexual tendencies.&nbsp; If not, they were placed in situations in which they had no control (sexual abuse while young etc), and those experiences formed their homosexual tendencies.&nbsp;

Just remember that Jesus washes away all our sins when we accept him as Lord and saviour in our lives.&nbsp; But Jesus doesn't take away our humanity.&nbsp; We are still fallen, and we will continue to sin, like Israel, despite hearing the word of God, and having God's laws written on our hearts.&nbsp;

Our humanity is NOT a choice.&nbsp; But is it sinful? YES
Homosexual tendencies, humanity for some people... was not a choice.&nbsp; How then is their humanity less natural than the humanity of heterosexuals?&nbsp; We all struggle with different things (some of us struggle on accepting our christian brothers/sisters) .&nbsp; Are we all any less sinful?&nbsp; NO.&nbsp;

There is no such thing as 'natural' or 'unnatural' sin.&nbsp; The acts might be 'unnatural' in that God didn't mean for men to copulate with other men, but God didn't intend for us to murder and steal either.&nbsp;

It's like making a distinction between 'good' and 'bad' sin.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's like making&nbsp;a distinction between who's less worthy (and thus who's more worthy) before God, because some people have the more 'natural' sin.&nbsp;

&nbsp;

[LouisBooth]

"The distinction between "natural" sin and "unnatural" sin is yours alone."

LOL, no no, you miss the point. I'm not making a distinction between sin but showing you how it is sin because it is totally unnatural.


"I figure, if God can do something "unnatural", then unnatural does not imply sinful.
"

God doesn't do anything unnatural, he didn't make anyone a homosexual seebs, they choose to be that way.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"The distinction between "natural" sin and "unnatural" sin is yours alone."

LOL, no no, you miss the point. I'm not making a distinction between sin but showing you how it is sin because it is totally unnatural.

You are saying that an attraction to one sin is sinful and an attraction to another sin is not sinful. This is a distinction between sin. This shouldn't be difficult. :(

[LouisBooth]

"You are saying that an attraction to one sin is sinful and an attraction to another sin is not sinful. "

Exactly, because God made one to be right and the other to be sinful. That's the distinction between sin and nonsin. :) Christ made that same distinction.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"You are saying that an attraction to one sin is sinful and an attraction to another sin is not sinful. "

Exactly, because God made one to be right and the other to be sinful. That's the distinction between sin and nonsin. :) Christ made that same distinction.

No, you are making a distinction between sin A and sin B. Essentially, you are saying that the sermon on the mount only applies to "unnatural" sins despite Jesus' inclusion of all sin. Attraction and temptation are either always sinful or always not. You can't pick and choose just so that you can call someone else's attractions sinful without applying the same standard to yourself. Just remember, by the standard by which you judge, you will be judged.

[SUNSTONE]

Temptation is not sin.
Jesus said if you lust after a women, then you have commited adultery in your heart. He was talking about a married person, or if you lust after a married person.
Remember Jesus was tempted in every way we were, but without sin.

[But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.] James 1:14+15

A wise man will not allow himself to dwell on lust, but he will dwell on the things from above.Whatever the head does, the body will follow.
Look at my sig below on sin and how you must master it. The war is won or lost in the thoughts, you have control and free will to do something about it. The wise thing to do is to submit unto God and resist the devil.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Temptation is not sin.
Jesus said if you lust after a women, then you have commited adultery in your heart. He was talking about a married person, or if you lust after a married person.
Remember Jesus was tempted in every way we were, but without sin.

[But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.] James 1:14+15

A wise man will not allow himself to dwell on lust, but he will dwell on the things from above.Whatever the head does, the body will follow.
Look at my sig below on sin and how you must master it. The war is won or lost in the thoughts, you have control and free will to do something about it. The wise thing to do is to submit unto God and resist the devil.

Thanks for stopping in. :wave:

[LouisBooth]

"You can't pick and choose just so that you can call someone else's attractions sinful without applying the same standard to yourself"

wrong again ;) if god strikes someone down and kills them, it is a right action. If you go and kill someone for no reason its a wrong action. The seperation here is not between sins, its determining if it IS a sin or not.

"Just remember, by the standard by which you judge, you will be judged."

I know this, and thus why I judge by the standard of righteousness of the bible, which has been attributed to me through christ :) Great point though.

to sum up..Homosexuality is unnatural, and thus wrong, sinful, and its a choice :)

[happy]

Homosexuality is a choice. We are not born that way. We are made in the image of God. And to say that we are born that way, then God must be a homosexual too. I once chose that lifestyle and when I accepted Jesus in my heart that gay lifestyle had to go. Yes I was stubborn and it was difficult but it was not impossible

[Blindfaith]

Welcome happy to the forums!!&nbsp; I see you're pretty new here, and I hope you'll be posting often!!

I'll throw some blessings your way to help you get started.

Check out the different rooms around here ~ there's something for everyone.

If you have any questions, just pm me.

btw...good post!

~Peace in Christ,

Terri

[happy]

I was a homosexual before I became saved.&nbsp; I was pretty much happy without God at the time.&nbsp; From my experience, being gay was one of things that had to go in order for me to begin to experience God.&nbsp; I took the person that was witnessing to me away from God and led her into a homosexual lifestyle&nbsp;which lasted for about 1 year.&nbsp; In that time, there was a lot of lying and backsliding.&nbsp; Some one&nbsp; must have been praying for her and I because I woke up one morning with a guilty conscience and I felt ashamed.&nbsp; How could have I taken a child away from God?&nbsp; In the end result hers and mine friendship almost ruined.&nbsp; I honestly believe that what we had done opened the door for the devil.&nbsp; It was really hard for me to turn away from her, not to lust after her but not impossible.&nbsp; I did a WHOLE heck of a lot of crying and arguing with GOD, yelling and screaming at GOD.&nbsp; But turning from that lifestyle was a good thing.&nbsp; When God closes one door He opens another.&nbsp; To this day I still struggle with homosexual feelings even though I am saved, the devil knows what buttons to press, I just pray about it and they go away.&nbsp; They get less and less each time.&nbsp; I