on harmonizing James with faith alone..

[LouisBooth]

"There is no middle ground. If you aren't acting on what you believe, you don't truly believe it."

Loved that thought I would share.

[mx143]

I agree.

When Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep my commands.", He wasn't saying that you would prove you love Him by keeping His commands. HE was saying that by loving Him you wouldn't have any problems keeping His commands. Ex...Lets say you have a spouse. Do you do things for the spouse to prove you love them...or do you do things for them BECAUSE you love them? Same thing here. Jesus knew that if you truly love Him then you'll have no problems keeping His commands.

James said ch2: (NIV)
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

I'm no bible scholar, but James is saying that BECAUSE you have faith in Christ, you will have deeds...James is talking about true faith, not just belief in God.

Ephesians says that you are saved by faith not by works. This is true, but Paul was say that works can't save you. You can't earn Salvation.

[WWJD777]

Amen!!

[Athlon4all]

Amen is right! That's a great explanation!

[Thunderchild]

?

The Bible never says "faith alone", it says "faith".

In one place it says "you are saved by faith"
In another "you are saved by grace"
in another "you are saved by the gospel"

No problems arise until some numbnut adds "alone" to one of the statements.

[LouisBooth]

sorry pastor. I say believe in this and you're saved. that implies just belief for there are no other things given as requirements. :)

[Thunderchild]

?

"Believe and you shall be saved" does exist in one of the passages, and "believe and be baptised and you will be saved" is in another.

Your comment that belief alone is enough would be tenable only if that was the only statement made throughout the Bible regarding the subject of salvation. It isn't.

"They did not love the truth so as to be saved." implies that a love of truth is part of the requirement for salvation.

But "believe and you will be saved" isn't even meaningful - the declaration does not say what it is that should be believed. Believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Believe that what Jesus proclaimed was true? Believe that what was being proclaimed ABOUT Jesus was true? All or one or none of the foregoing? - without reference to other passages you cannot even determine WHAT is to be believed.

The apparant implication you claim exists does not stand - the possibility that belief alone is necessary is refuted by other passages.

"quote 1" says, and "quote 1" has a number of possible implications. Any one of those implications might be correct, but when "quote 2" supports only one of those implications, any of the others has been refuted.

[LouisBooth]

"Your comment that belief alone is enough would be tenable only if that was the only statement made throughout the Bible regarding the subject of salvation. It isn't. "

It is made with complete correctness. Just read the book of galatians and you being a pastor should know the historical background. That compleltly harmonizes with James for the result to be Faith alone. It produces good works in christ (among which is baptism). A leaf on a plant as well as fruit is not the defination of life, but ONLY a sigh of it. Its faith alone, just like when a seedling sprouts, it doesn't have any fruit, but its alive.

[Thunderchild]

Press down on the accelerator pedal and the car will go ... ergo, the only thing needed to make a car go is an accelerator. What? You don't need the engine to be running? You don't need a power train to turn the wheels?

Light the gas, and you will be able to cook your food ... ergo you only need lit gas to cook food with. What? You don't need a frying pan, or a regulated gas supply?

Turn its switch to the on position and you will be able to watch TV ... ergo the only thing needed to watch TV is that the switch be turned on. What? you don't need the TV to be plugged into a suitable live power socket? You don't need the TV to be tuned to a channel which is carrying a transmission?

[LouisBooth]

"Press down on the accelerator pedal and the car will go ... ergo, the only thing needed to make a car go is an accelerator"

This is a false analogy. Christ himself said to have eternal life you must believe. Now to truely believe all it takes is faith. That's it. Nothing else is requred. The book of galatians was written for that exact purpose. To say its faith ALONE. oh..and those words are used too. :) It is also spoken about in the book of Ephesians. Faith alone is the answer.

[Thunderchild]

Search of the Blue Letter Bible returned the following result -

There is one verse containing the words faith alone. It is not an exact phrase match:Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Hmmm. Faith alone is dead.

Perhaps a reference more precise than an entire book might be advantageous.

[LouisBooth]

"Hmmm. Faith alone is dead."

Someone doesn't seem to understand the word context.

"and judus went and hanged himself." "go and do likewise" Okay, according to you you need to go hang yourself....need some rope? :lol:

"Perhaps a reference more precise than an entire book might be advantageous. "

I guess you don't understand the book of galatians then. Its what its about. Anything other then faith won't get you salvation. Faith alone=salvation. That's the equation used in scripture. Do you understand what works are, maybe thats where you're having a problem.

[The Squalid Wanderer]

is that saving faith must be accompanied by, and indeed expressed in, works.

Even though knowledge is true, it is still not firmly established if unaccompanied by works. For everything is established by being put into practice.

Read St. Mark the Ascetic's No Righteousness by Works (http://www.jbburnett.com/markasc-righteousness.htm)

[Kanuk]

The fact is that James is actually refuting what Protestants believe.

James concludes by saying "a man is justified by works." The context makes it painfully clear that he is talking about soteriological justification. And it is only those who want to believe the lie who ignore it.

Put it this way. If you are a Protestant please try and explain how you put your faith in Christ without describing it as a mental assent.

Have fun.

Kanuk

[Thunderchild]

As to the book of Galatians - why was it written? <font color=yellow>"I wonder that you are so quickly transferred from Him having called you by the grace of Christ to another gospel</font> Quite clearly, there is a problem inasmuch that the Galatians are being unsettled by an opposing doctrine.

Are the people causing the problems identified? With certainty they are of the circumcision party.

Now as to whether Galatians has been correctly interpreted: the following verses seem to be missing from a large number of the Bibles in circulation.

Galatians 6:8-9 <font color=yellow>For the one sowing to the flesh will reap corruption of the flesh. But the one sowing to the Spirit will reap everlasting life from the Spirit. But we should not weaken in doing good, for in due time we shall reap, IF WE DO NOT FAINT </font> That last - "if we do not faint." in particular, seems to be in very few Bibles.

Or what of Galatians 5 which in many Bibles seems to end with verse 17. Verses 18-21 <font color=yellow> Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, being adultery, (elided list),idolateries, jealousies, rivalries etc of which I tell you beforehand, as I also said before, THAT THE ONES PRACTICING SUCH THINGS WILL INHERIT NOTHING OF HEAVEN</font> It should not pass without note that in other passages in the Bible, all sins are stated (twice even) to be idolatries. As if the foregoing was not sufficient, Paul continues in verse 24 - <font color=yellow>But the ones belonging to Christ crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.</font>

What then of these works that do not save? Is it an all-encompassing declaration or specific? Is it works of righteousness that do not save? or works of love, perhaps? Maybe works of faith? Not at all - works of law are the only works declared to be insufficient, not only in Galatians but throughout the New Testament.

[LouisBooth]

"That last - "if we do not faint." in particular, seems to be in very few Bibles."

Well, I'm gonna have to see the greek on that. Until you show me otherwise, I'm gonna go with the majority of the bibles and leave that out.

Works are unsaving PERIOD. With a correct understanding of romans chapter 5-8 you can clearly see that. Galatians was written for that exact reason. To say works do not save. All of chapter 3 tells that. As does romans chapter 5-8. The only reason the law exsists is for a guide. Sin took the law captive and what was to give us life gave us death. After being freed by Christ we are no longer under the bondage of sin. Works have NO effect on that freeing. Salvation is by Grace through faith and faith alone.

[Thunderchild]

<font color=yellow> Works are unsaving PERIOD. With a correct understanding of romans chapter 5-8 you can clearly see that. Galatians was written for that exact reason. To say works do not save.</font>

Surely you jest

[Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.] <font color=blue> Read and Compare </font> [Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves of righteousness.]

[Romans 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I can not carry it out.] <font color=blue> Read and Compare </font> [Romans 8:3 ... and so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us.]

[Romans 7:23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.] <font color=blue> Read and Compare</font> [Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.]

<font color=green>"That last - "if we do not faint." in particular, seems to be in very few Bibles.".</font>

<font color=yellow>Well, I'm gonna have to see the greek on that. Until you show me otherwise, I'm gonna go with the majority of the bibles and leave that out.</font>

Oh for pity's sake, that was a tongue in cheek comment. Nonetheless - Would you like the textus receptus?
to de kalon poiountes me ekkakomen kairo gar idio therisomen me ekluomenoi (word by word) the and good doing not let-us-weaken in-time for its-own we-shall-reap not-exhausted.

Or perhaps you would prefer the Westcott-Hort with NA variants (oh - it's the same, except that the spelling of "ekkakomen" is changed to "egkakomen" - but there is no change of meaning.)

Now, how do the translators handle this passage?
AKJV - we shall reap, if we faint not.
Literal - we shall reap, if (we) do not faint.
NAS - we shall reap if we do not grow weary.
NIV - we shall reap if we do not give up.
NKJ - we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
Concordant - for in due season we shall be reaping, if we do not faint (faint being marked as middle voice. bold text is a direct translation - regular is added to make a sensible English rendering)
Amplified (Zondervan) - we shall reap, if we do not loosen and relax our courage and faint.

[Just1ce4all]

This is what the study notes for the NIV say about the scripture in James:

2:21 Apart from its context, this verse might seem to contradict the Biblical teaching that people are saved by faith and not by good deeds (Ro 3:28; Gal 2:15-16). But James means only that righteous action is evidence of genuine faith--not that it saves, for the verse (Ge 15:6) that he cites (v. 23) to substantiate his point says, "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it [i.e., faith, not works] to him as righteousness." Furthermore, Abraham's act of faith recorded in Ge 15:6 occurred before he offered up Isaac, which was only a proof of the genuineness of his faith. As Paul wrote, "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love" (Gal 5:6). Faith that saves produces deeds.

This is how they explained it wasn't contradictory, and wasn't saying works saved you at all. It says your works prove your faith. It's explaining how faith without works is dead. Not nonexistant though. Dead just means it doesn't produce anything, it isn't growing. Considering the number of scriptures that say works won't save you, I'd suggest thinking again about that belief. Faith alone saves.

[Thunderchild]

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[Blackhawk]

Just1ce4all ,

You are completly right again. I will atke it a little farther though maybe.

You have to have works to be saved in a way. But not really. What I mean is that if you are saved works happen. They are a natural outpouring of your faith. If you do not have them then your faith is dead. But you will have them if you are saved. So all have them that are saved but they do not save you directly. Kind of like " I love God so I do what He says." The love comes st. I love Him and that is what is imortant. However because I love Him I obey Him. see it is a naturakl proression. I love Him so I do what He says. i have faith so then I have works.

Another angle could be that "without works faith is dead" Yes. But what does that mean? Does the faith being dead mean you are unsaved? Maybe not. maybe it just means it makes no difference to others and really not alot to yourself. So it is trying to encourage people to do goo works becasue silent faith does not help anyone. One must speak their faith and live it also. (which James talked about a lot) For example if I go to work and am a secret missinary. That I am a Christian but no one knows. How does that really help my friends at work? It does not. I must tell others about my faith and about God and live out my faith through my works. So faith is still what saves us but it is dead (or no real use to anyone else) If I do not live out my faith through works.

Blackahw

[The Squalid Wanderer]

James clearly states that dead faith can in no way save us. There is no question about that. His rhetorical question in verse 14 has only one reasonable answer, no such a faith cannot save.

[Blackhawk]

Are you reffering to this verse?

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

notice he did not say why that fait hwould not save him. Could it be because without works it is obviously faith in the wrong thing? So people without works saying that they have faith in God really do not at all. That they have faith in soemthing else.

Blackhaw

[The Squalid Wanderer]

Verse 19 clearly shows that orthodoxy is not sufficient.

Also Chapter 1:22 makes it clear that it is the Word which they supposedly believe in, but that this is of no benefit without action.

[LouisBooth]

I would disagree with not being saved by faith alone. If this is true, then God is not God according to Ephesians 2:8. Salvation is God given, and if something we do has an effect on salvation then it is not God's to give but ours to take. This is clearly against what verse 8 says. Works is not something that happens during or before salvation, but after. I would akin it to a married couple. Your behavior changes AFFER you are married. You do things differently, thus is the christian life. Works is a natural part of it, but not a REQUIRED part to be. The illustration Paul liked to use is citizenship. If I am a citizen of the kingdom it is only natural that I want to care for that kingdom and to do this works. Works do not quailify me for citizenship, but it shows I am a citizen.

That about sums it up. :)

[Blackhawk]

Desmios Tou Christou,

James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says

This verse just says that we should not only listen but do what the word says. No one is disagreeing with that.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Again no one is deabting that one has to not only believe in God but must have faith.

Blackhaw

[Thunderchild]

<font color=red>James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?</font><font color=green>

notice he did not say why that fait hwould not save him. Could it be because without works it is obviously faith in the wrong thing? So people without works saying that they have faith in God really do not at all. That they have faith in soemthing else. </font>

The reason that faith is unable to save him is stated with certainty.

Faith without works is dead. v20...faith needs works to bring it to perfection v22 ,,, a person is justified before God by works v24 AND v25 ... faith without works is like a body without the spirit - dead v26

[LouisBooth]

"The reason that faith is unable to save him is stated with certainty."

Only if you yank that verse out of context. You are missing the whole point of the book man!!

to preface his statements look at the previous verses. in chapter 1 James clearly shows what he is saying.

"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what is says, Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what is says is like a man who looks at his face in a morror and after looking at himself goes away and immediately forges what he looks like. You also miss out on verse 14 where James is clearly calling the said faith into question as not real faith. Works are NOT salvation nor do they have any part in it. Its like a dog barking. If he doesn't bark he doen't cease to be a dog, but the bark is evidence that he exsists.

[Thunderchild]

"The reason that faith is unable to save him is stated with certainty."

Only if you yank that verse out of context. You are missing the whole point of the book man!!

<font color=green>to preface his statements look at the previous verses. in chapter 1 James clearly shows what he is saying.</font>

<font color=red:D o not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what is says, Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what is says is like a man who looks at his face in a morror and after looking at himself goes away and immediately forges what he looks like.</font> Indeed, this is true - James is admonishing the reader to DO what the word says, not just listen to it... Somewhere it is written, not the hearers of the law are justified before God, but the doers thereof. (I think Paul was the one who wrote it.)

<font color=green>You also miss out on verse 14 where James is clearly calling the said faith into question as not real faith. .</font>

Are you referring to James 2:14? - <font color=red> My brothers, what is the gain if anyone claims to have faith, but does not have works? Is faith able to save him? No.</font> This verse does not anywhere say that it is not a real faith. This verse states that faith is not able to save in the absence of works - completely in contradiction to your own claim <font color=green> Works are NOT salvation nor do they have any part in it.</font>

<font color=green> Its like a dog barking. If he doesn't bark he doen't cease to be a dog, but the bark is evidence that he exsists. </font>

I don't recall seeing a passage to the effect that works are evidence of the existence of faith (though such a verse may exist, I will admit) I DO, however, recall this passage - <font color=red>Act 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. </font> - Oh dear, Paul preached from the first that people should* repent and produce works. should* is not in the Greek.... <font color=red> ... preached from the first ... and to the Gentiles, that they repent and produce works in keeping with repentence.</font> This is what Paul himself preached from the first. - no faith alone in there.

[LouisBooth]

So are hears of the word saved? NOPE.

"not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. "

Its all summed up right there.
Again, I ask, where do actions start? IN THE HEART and that is where you are saved. In the heart. Works play no part in salvation, the are a post salvation occurance.

"This verse does not anywhere say that it is not a real faith. This verse states that faith is not able to save in the absence of works - completely in contradiction to your own claim "

:lol: it doesn't at all. It in fact proves my point. Look at the earlier verses. Do you not understand the illistration in the early part of chapter 2? its talking about judging by outter appearances!!! You also seem not to understand the illistration staring in verse 22.

"I don't recall seeing a passage to the effect that works are evidence of the existence of faith"

YOu haven't read james then..

verse 2:28 ..."and I will show you my faith by what I do." out of TRUE FAITH, works naturally flow. Unnatural things happen, you don't HAVE to have works, they are not a requirement.

I think a better translation of that word is prove. thus saying prove your faith by your deeds. Get it? Not a requirement. Its proof. See the difference.
He did preach faith alone. He is saying, show others you are christians by your love, just as Christ said. It is in required. :) Hope I cleared that up for you.

[Thunderchild]

verse 2:28 ... <font color=red> and I will show you my faith by what I do.</font><font color=green> out of TRUE FAITH, works naturally flow. Unnatural things happen, you don't HAVE to have works, they are not a requirement.</font> Definitely, that is a possible interpretation of the quote, but a second possibility exists: that by what I do you will see the evidence of my faith. So which of the two possible interpretations is valid? <font color=red>Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world. .... 1Cr 13:2-3 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. </font> That is clear enough - A person's faith is of no benefit to that person in the absence of that person's ability to (and demonstration of) love. Moreover, what we do is of no benefit if that doing is not prompted by love. In sum, both faith and works are useless without love. Here again, the concept that "faith alone is sufficient" is shown to be false. You are quite correct in stating that it begins in the heart - no doubt of it.

<font color=green> I think a better translation of that word is prove. thus saying prove your faith by your deeds. Get it? Not a requirement. Its proof. See the difference.</font> You might have had a point, if the verse said "deeds are the proof of faith," but the (better translated) verse says "prove your faith" - and given that proving metal does not mean "showing the evidence that it exists", prove your faith would, given that you are stating a preference for Elizabethan English, in fact re-inforce the statement in Jam 2:22 <font color=red>Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? </font>

<font color=green> He did preach faith alone. .</font> Despite the fact that James says <font color=red>Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.</font> and <font color=red> Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. </font> you continue to claim James was saying faith alone is sufficient? But then you go on to say: <font color=green> He is saying, show others you are christians by your love, just as Christ said.</font> Would you care to examine those statments for logical consistency? Showing people that you are a Christian is a thing that is done. The showing is itself a work. Or if not, Jam 2:15 - 17 is nonsense. <font color=red> If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. </font>

[LouisBooth]

First of all you're quoting different scriptures dealing with different things!!! :lol: That verse in 1 cor. has NOTHING to do with salvation. :lol: I think its kinda funny to that you miss the last part of that cahpter "and now these three remain: faith, hope and love.." wow..I don't see works in there at all!!!!

"That is clear enough - A person's faith is of no benefit to that person in the absence of that person's ability to (and demonstration of) love"

Ahh..but where does love start? IN THE HEART. It doesn't start with actions. Love is a mindset, not works. Heck, half the stuff in there are attutide!! You're really reaching here. Lets just look in the book of John...3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned.." I dont' see anything about works in there. Your salvation or condemenation relies on BELIEF.

"does not mean "showing the evidence that it exists", "

Actaully it does..how do you know its a dog? it barks, have fur and does things a dog could do. It looks like a dog. but sometimes you find animals that don't look like what they are..dophins for example dont' LOOK like mammals, BUT THEY ARE. The proof they are talking about is how you live out your salvation. Just like when you are freed from prison you live like you're NOT in prison. You don't do the same things as you did in prison.

"The showing is itself a work. "

Exactly, you don't have to but you naturally will. Thus James is saying, if you're a christian start acting like it! James is NOT writing about how to become a christian but how a post salvation person should act!! James was writing to people that were ignoring God's laws that were clearly revealed. There were at the opposite end of the spectrum. Thus his harsh words. in verse 1:22 You're not taking the book in context.

[Thunderchild]

<font color=green> First of all you're quoting different scriptures dealing with different things!!! That verse in 1 cor. has NOTHING to do with salvation. I think its kinda funny to that you miss the last part of that cahpter "and now these three remain: faith, hope and love.." wow..I don't see works in there at all!!!!</font> I was sure that 1 Corinthians 13: 2 made mention of the fact that faith meant nothing if it was not backed by love. I was also sure that there was a direct correlation between James 2:15-17 (which carefully points out what kind of religion is acceptable to God) and 1 Corinthians 13:2 Maybe I Misunderstood something - did you mean me to believe that while works are not part of the requirement for salvation, other factors ARE involved? Love, for instance?

<font color=green>Ahh..but where does love start? IN THE HEART.</font> I thought that I had stipulated to that already. Yes, I did. <font color=blue>You are quite correct in stating that it begins in the heart - no doubt of it.</font>
<font color=green>It doesn't start with actions. Love is a mindset, not works. Heck, half the stuff in there are attutide!! You're really reaching here. Lets just look in the book of John...3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned.." I dont' see anything about works in there. Your salvation or condemenation relies on BELIEF.</font> Hmmm. I don't see any concept of "alone" after "belief" in that passage. Did someone inadvertently add a word to the Biblical record perhaps, and in doing so, subtract from the message of the gospel? Or do you also consider that demons are saved? For it is written that even the demons believe - and tremble.

In quoting me you have cited <font color=blue>does not mean showing the evidence that it exists</font> Oh - yes, my paragraph is a little (well, a lot really) convoluted. Let's see what the Greek has to say:deiknuo - "show." Now, what I was trying to say is "prove" my faith by my works would have meant "purify" as in "proving metal", it would not have meant "show"- and it does mean show, as demonstrated through recourse to a concordance.

<font color=green>Actaully it does..how do you know its a dog? it barks, have fur and does things a dog could do. It looks like a dog. but sometimes you find animals that don't look like what they are..dophins for example dont' LOOK like mammals, BUT THEY ARE. .</font> Ah... we are back at the menagerie. In fact dolphins do look very much like mammals...they look similar to whales which are also mammals.

<font color=green>The proof they are talking about is how you live out your salvation Just like when you are freed from prison you live like you're NOT in prison. You don't do the same things as you did in prison.</font> Tut. Now you're back to doing things again.

<font color=green>The showing is itself a work. Exactly, you don't have to but you naturally will. Thus James is saying, if you're a christian start acting like it! </font> *scratching head* ummm....didn't you just shoot your own prior comment down in flames. You don't have to...James says you must????? <font color=green> James is NOT writing about how to become a christian but how a post salvation person should act!! !! </font> I don't recall that I ever said anything along the lines of "James is saying how to become a Christian." And here we go again with the "should" - which certainly means nothing like "if a person is a Christian it will naturally happen." Just which side of the debate are you trying to support? <font color=green> James was writing to people that were ignoring God's laws that were clearly revealed. There were at the opposite end of the spectrum. Thus his harsh words. in verse 1:22 You're not taking the book in context </font> I am not taking the book in which of the many possible contexts? I am certainly taking the book into context with all other Biblical records which address the subjects of faith and of the factors involved in salvation - so it must be some other "taking into context" that you are referring to. It is doubtful that I would consider it valid to take the epistle in context with grounds other than the complete Biblical record..

[LouisBooth]

"was also sure that there was a direct correlation between James 2:15-17"

:lol: but there isn't because true faith is in love. :lol: You're talking about apples and oranges here. That scripture doesn't apply.

"other factors ARE involved? Love, for instance? "

Nope, nothing else is involved. No where in those verses is Paul talking about salvation. You're taking it out of context!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"You are quite correct in stating that it begins in the heart - no doubt of it."

Exactly, works are a RESULT of what you feel in your heart. True faith. then works. but it only takes true faith to save. Example: Luke cp 24 theif on the cross.

"Hmmm. I don't see any concept of "alone" after "belief" in that passage"

Its pretty easy to see...belief=saved nonbelief=not saved. Its made pretty clear in that passage.

"Or do you also consider that demons are saved"

*sigh* wrong kind of belief there bub. He is talking about true faith.

"In fact dolphins do look very much like mammals...they look similar to whales which are also mammals. "

:lol: Okay, not you're just being dishonest. Look in your science history book at find out what people first thought they were..fish..ie NOT mammals. :rolleyes:

"You don't have to...James says you must????? "

if you take it out of context, yes, it says exactly that. Taken out of context the book of james says exactly what you want it to.

"I don't recall that I ever said anything along the lines of "James is saying how to become a Christian." "\

:lol: that's EXACTLY what we are talking about. You say to have salvation you have to do works. The salvation experience is what makes you a christian :rolleyes: Its getting tiring talking to you while you dance around like that.

"I am certainly taking the book into context with all other Biblical records which address the subjects of faith and of the factors involved in salvation "

:lol: no you're not or you would say that works have no part in salvation.

Do I need to go dig up my upteen million verses in the NT that support my position or will you acutally read the bible and find them? Good place to start..synoptics and John.

[Thunderchild]

<font color=red> Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. </font> According to this, Jesus saves - no mention of faith being involved. You could not assume that faith saves based on this verse in isolation.
<font color=red> Rom 8:23-24 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? </font> We are saved by hope - again, when this verse is taken in isolation, there is no way to show that we are saved by faith.
<font color=red> 1Cr 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. </font> We are saved by the gospel. Does it really need to be said that this passage does not even begin to say we are saved by the gospel alone?
<font color=red>1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:</font> We are saved by baptism. baptism alone does not save us.

So much for saved (not that the list is in any wise complete)...on to salvation.

<font color=red> Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. </font> The gospel saves IF the person also believes. Any claim that the gospel alone is sufficient is denied.
<font color=red> 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: </font> Salvation through sanctification yet AND believing the truth
<font color=red> Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; </font> Salvation through obedience.

Now for save

<font color=red> 1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. </font> Ack. We can save others and ourselves. by heeding doctrine and by continuing in it. And that statement opens a can of worms.
<font color=red> Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. </font> Intercession by Jesus will save us.
<font color=red> Jam 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls</font> The engrafted word will save us.

Saved by faith alone is a godless myth, an old wives' tale which subtracts from the gospel.

[LouisBooth]

*sigh* you once again rip verses out of context. That verse in Acts was not ment to be taken by itself. It was spoken with a certain thing in mind. That you are only saved by christ an no other.

"You could not assume that faith saves based on this verse in isolation."

That's your problem. in isolation.

"So much for saved (not that the list is in any wise complete)...on to salvation. "

:lol: there's your problem. Its taken out of context. The verse I produced for you from John chapter 3 was very much in context. It was CLEARLY talking about salvation. The verses you have quoted are not. I would say, hey you want a hot dog and you would go to PETA and say I'm grilled up pit bulls or something :lol:

"
Saved by faith alone is a godless myth, an old wives' tale which subtracts from the gospel."

:rolleyes: No, it is your message of earned salvation that takes away from the gospel. It is made quite simple in every book of the bible that we are saved by faith alone. The simplest way i can put it to you is this....oh..and it is very much in context..."For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of Fod 'not as a result of works, that on one should boast." There ya go..faith alone, no works, period.

[Thunderchild]

It is very easy to say "it is out of context" - but when no attempt is made to demonstrate just how this has been done, the claim can be safely dismissed as just another smokescreen.

[Thunderchild]

Jesus said that some would believe for a time, but fall away when tribulation arose. I am inclined to believe that he knew what he was talking about.

It is very easy to claim that a passage is taken out of context, but when there is no attempt to back up the claim with supporting evidence, I will dismiss the claim as nothing more than a smokescreen.

FACT - Various passages state that we are saved by things other than faith. Faith alone is therefore invalid as a doctrine. Sample passages have been posted which show what some of those other factors are. No attempt has been made by opponents to demonstrate that there has been a misinterpretation or misrepresentation of the text - no more than an unsupported declaration that they are taken out of context has been made.

The statement that "this verse taken in isolation" does not show that faith is involved in salvation was made to show that those verses which people will say support OSAS are taken in isolation from all other references which state that other factors are involved. To put it bluntly - I would not say that "the gospel alone saves" and it is clear that "faith alone saves" has no greater support than "gospel alone saves."

[LouisBooth]

"okay, would you like me to go verse by verse and show you how it was out of context? If you are applying a scripture to a topic that was NOT being discussed, then it is out of context (see my analogy).

"FACT - Various passages state that we are saved by things other than faith. Faith alone is therefore invalid as a doctrine. "

Untrue. These things are evidences of faith. We can go back through each one of those verses if you like.

Just as an example..
"1Cr 15:1-2 " In this passage it is clear he is talking about the resurrection event itself, not its signficance or salvation at all. Look at the next few verses...He goes on to say Christ died for our sins and rose then the next 4 verses he lists those he appeared to. Then in the last of the passage he (Paul) says that he says he isnt worth, but the grace is..then look at the last verse of the passage.."this is what you BELIEVED." hmm...hint hint :lol: But if I would make a "ruling" this passage is NOT talking about salvation or the requirements of it at all, but about the actual event therefore you are taking this out of context.

[Thunderchild]

What does it mean "to take a passage out of context"?
Quite simple really, it is taking a phrase sentence or paragraph out of the surrounding passages to give it a meaning which was never intended - or - taking a phrase sentence or paragraph as being a stand alone declaration, ignoring the fact that yet other passages on the same topic do not say the same thing.

Examples are as follows: A person might say that the Bible claims Jesus cast out demons only by the prince of demons. The quote is taken out of context, that statement exists in the Bible, but it is not what the passage says - the passage says a false charge had been made that Jesus cast out demons only by the prince of demons.

When the spies reported back about what they had seen in Philistia, they said that these people are 10 feet tall. However, this phrase, while apparently stating that the people were 120 inches high, does not mean that the people were literally 10 feet tall - it is a statement which refers to their prosperity and pride, as shown by context - in this case, a couple of sentences earlier.

Or we might see that "by faith you are saved" and claim that is the sum of all the Bible has to say about what saves, ignoring the existence of other passages which say such things as "if you believe and are baptised", "repent and produce fruits in keeping with repentence" and so forth. In claiming that "faith alone saves" we would be taking the references declaring "by faith you are saved" out of context. Taking into account the whole of Bible denies any possibility that faith alone saves. I have no hesitation in saying that God alone saves...faith is one part of the process by which he achieves this (another is Jesus's atoning sacrifice on the cross.)

When an author states something as a fact while addressing other issues, a quote which refers to the stated fact is not being taken out of context - it is an extract of the facts pertinent to the topic under review.

<font color=green> Just as an example..
"1Cr 15:1-2 " In this passage it is clear he is talking about the resurrection event itself, not its signficance or salvation at all. Look at the next few verses...He goes on to say Christ died for our sins and rose then the next 4 verses he lists those he appeared to.</font>

Verse 1 <font color=red>And I make known to you , brothers, the gospel which I preached to you..."</font> says that in the authors opinion, the topic of discussion being undertaken in this paragraph is the same gospel that he preached from the first. <font color=red>in which you stand, through which you are saved - the word I preached to you -if you hold fast </font> The author states that the gospel saves, but that is conditional - if we hold fast. Verse 3 details what that preaching of the gospel entailed. <font color=red>For among the first things I delivered to you, that which I also received, that Christ died on behalf of our sins...</font> an expansion on 1 Cor 2:2

So then, the "analysis" cited in green, above, is incorrect at base - far from being an address on the "resurrection event", it is about the teaching of the gospel and the effects thereof.

If we pretend though, that the address really was about the resurrection event, how does that affect the meaning of the declaration that we are saved by the gospel? It makes not the slightest difference at all - the author has presented "salvation through the gospel" as a statement of fact. Nothing in the passage, nor anywhere else in the Bible denies that the claim is correct. Other passages do modify it, though, showing that the gospel is not the only factor involved.

[LouisBooth]

thunder, I dont think you see that you're wrong here do you? Just read the last few verses that follow, maybe you'll get it then. Saved by faith alone is something FULLY supported by the bible. I have yet to see a verse taken in context to show otherwise. He is talking about diluting the message that is why he goes on to state the primary message that is christ died for our sins. He is NOT talking about loosing your salvation. LOOK AT THE CONTEXT!!

[Thunderchild]

I have explained in detail that when a thing is taken out of context, the intended meaning is altered as a result.

Where a thing is taken from the surrounding context without changing the intended meaning of what is quoted, it has not been taken out of context, it has been abridged.

It should be clear that what I have cited is not taken out of context, but abridged.

[LouisBooth]

"It should be clear that what I have cited is not taken out of context, but abridged. "

no, it is taken out of context, you think that passage is indepentant of the rest of the letter, that is the problem. After showing that works are a result of faith James THEN makes those statements knowing the reader wouldn't forget what he just wrote.

[Thunderchild]

<font color=green>no, it is taken out of context, you think that passage is indepentant of the rest of the letter, that is the problem. After showing that works are a result of faith James THEN makes those statements knowing the reader wouldn't forget what he just wrote. </font>

? Where does James show that works are a result of faith? Chapter 2 verse 13 concludes a passage on mercy and love, so this "works are a result of faith" statement must follow Chapter 2 verse 13. Is it then verse 14 that says works result from faith? <font color=red> What is the gain, my brothers, if anyone claims to have faith, but does not have works? Can that faith save him? no.</font>. Well, no, this says that faith without works cannot save. Hmmm... can it be that some Bible I have not encountered has a verse 13[wash my mouth]¾? Maybe the one who wrote the comment quoted in green made a minor error in stating the location of the bit that says "works are a result of faith". Perhaps you would care to cite chapter and verse, LouisBooth?

[LouisBooth]

"Where does James show that works are a result of faith? "

Chapter 1 and the first part of chapter 2 :)

I explained it all to you before... Did you understand the illistration used by James in chapter 1?

[Thunderchild]

If there was any validity to your claim LouisBooth, you would have no difficulty in posting the quote that proves what you are saying is correct.

[epobre]

LouisBooth,

You haven't answered my question. How can a DEAD faith save? The verse says "faith WITHOUT works is DEAD."

Pastor Thunderchild is correct. The verse DOES NOT say "faith WITHOUT works 'that accompany salvation' is DEAD."

Ed

[LouisBooth]

*sigh* okay thunder I'll post it for you AGAIN.

"But prove yourselves does of the word, and mnot merely hearers that delude themselves." After this he does into an illistration talking about TRUE faith producing works. then in verse 14 of chapter 2 he summs up what he is saying, if you don't have works can such faith save him? James is saying its not REAL faith.He then illstrates it again by another example of doing what it in the heart.

"How can a DEAD faith save? "

Ed, ask the guy on the cross that was saved without doing a darn thing. No works at all. none..

[epobre]

LouisBooth,

I wrote:"How can a DEAD faith save? "

Ed, ask the guy on the cross that was saved without doing a darn thing. No works at all. none..

Louis, the thief on the cross was a lucky guy because he was born at the right time and at the right place. Jesus was there to grant him forgiveness without doing anything. Jesus was at that time authorized to forgive sins (Mark 2:10).

Before Jesus ascended to heaven, he left behind a "manual of instructions" for anyone to join him in paradise because he was no longer around to grant forgiveness of sins outright. Jesus forsaw that in the future, nobody else would be able to see what lies in the heart of men.

That's why Jesus built his church (Matt. 16:1:cool: .

That's why Jesus said anyone who ENTERS (his church aka flock) will be saved (John 10:9).

That's why Jesus said he who BELIEVES and is BAPTIZED will be saved (Matrk 16:16).

That's why Jesus COMMANDED his disciples to BAPTIZE in the name of ....(Matt. 28:19).

That's why apostle Paul says God delivers His people from the powers of darkness and TRANSLATES them INTO the KINGDOM of His Son IN WHOM there is REDEMPTION through Christ's blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14).

That's why apostle Paul says that one who ENTERS the BODY of Christ is a NEW CREATION in Chhrist (2 Cor. 5:17) and must put on the NEW man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of (Col. 3:10).

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"Louis, the thief on the cross was a lucky guy because he was born at the right time and at the right place. Jesus was there to grant him forgiveness without doing anything. "

*sigh* :lol: sorry ed, God doesn't make exceptions to his rules. Its just proof that you don't need works to be saved. Like it was said ed, funny how Jesus NEVER baptised anyone...

[Optimus_P]

LouisBooth: I agree. You dont need works to be saved; but works help obtain more in heaven as long as they are whole heartedly for the Father and not for what you should reap when you enter the kingdom.

I guess it goes back to showing your faith. Do you have faith? yes/no... If so show me your faith. ya know what im sayin.

[epobre]

OptumusP,

LouisBooth: I agree. You dont need works to be saved; but works help obtain more in heaven as long as they are whole heartedly for the Father and not for what you should reap when you enter the kingdom.

I guess it goes back to showing your faith. Do you have faith? yes/no... If so show me your faith. ya know what im sayin.

I'm glad you are getting it my friend. In Matt. 7:21, Jesus seems to be saying exactly what you are saying. Show me your FAITH in me by DOING the WILL of the Father in heaven and you will enter the kingdom of heaven.

In Mark 16:16, Jesus seems to be saying, show me your FAITH in me by allowing yourself to be BAPTIZED into the true church of Christ and you will be saved.

In John 10:9 Jesus seems to be saying, show me your FAITH in me by ENTERING my BODY, the church aka flock and you will be saved.


Ed

[Optimus_P]

epobre:

i would hope what i am saying would follow hte lines of christ. i dont ever want to misconstrew the words of Christ in place of opinion with out it being stated befor that it is opinion.

[LouisBooth]

OP yup, ya got it. Faith alone..and works is a showing of that faith..they naturally come out, but unnatural things happen too. That's my point. Works have no part in salvation, it is an AFTER salvation thing.

[Thunderchild]

What does it mean to believe in Jesus Christ? Does it mean that you can call what he himself says a lie? Did he say "some will believe for a time, but in time of tribulation fall away."? That he did.

Did he say that baptism was an optional extra, of no account? No - he said go into all the world: baptise and teach them to do all that I have commanded you.

[epobre]

LouisBooth,

You wrote: OP yup, ya got it. Faith alone..and works is a showing of that faith..they naturally come out, but unnatural things happen too. That's my point. Works have no part in salvation, it is an AFTER salvation thing.

Do you ever look at the verses that are posted? John 10:9 says "I am the door. If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved..."

How can you be saved BEFORE you perform the WORK of ENTERING by the door?

You have to show your FAITH by ENTERING by Jesus BEFORE you are saved.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

Ed and thunder. If we have any action that influences our salvation then we do NOT have salvation by grace and the bible teaches that salvation is BY grace and grace ALONE.

[epobre]

LouisBooth,

I wrote::D o you ever look at the verses that are posted? John 10:9 says "I am the door. If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved..."

How can you be saved BEFORE you perform the WORK of ENTERING by the door?

You have to show your FAITH by ENTERING by Jesus BEFORE you are saved.

You wrote:Ed and thunder. If we have any action that influences our salvation then we do NOT have salvation by grace and the bible teaches that salvation is BY grace and grace ALONE.

First, you are LYING Louis. The Bible does not teach that man is saved by grace and grace ALONE. Show us the verse that says this.

Second, you haven't answered the question. You only succeeded in EVADING it.

How can you be saved by faith BEFORE performing the WORK of ENTERING?

Additionally, how can you be saved by faith BEFORE performing the WORK of DOING the WILL of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:21)?

Ed

[nyj]

Let us see what Jesus had to say about that:

Matthew 25: 31-46
"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.[wash my mouth]Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'[wash my mouth]Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'[wash my mouth]Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

It appears to me that the difference between the sheep and the goats is not their belief, because both professed belief in Christ, it is their actions, their works that stemmed from that belief. Indeed, faith alone is useless.

[WhitBit]

As recently posted in a nearby thread...8o

"Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ. Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it away?"
~ Galatians 3:2-4

In essence...if one is in a position of finding validity in their salvation by their works...then they missed the point in the first place :D

"Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so that we can do the good things he planned for us long ago."
~ Ephesians 2:9-10

[LouisBooth]

an analogy to clearify that scripture for you and this issue.

If I get an invite and reply to it Thats an acceptable way its done. Now I can reply all I want to but if I don't get an invite, IT DOESN'T MATTER! Its the invite that validates the reply, not the other way around. Its the faith that valids savlation not works. Faith validates works. Works doesn't affect salvation or its not by grace. Salvation is by grace ALONE. Grace is something you can't earn OR WORK FOR.

[WhitBit]

Lou...right on ;)

[nyj]

Faith validates works.

Actually, it is not that our faith validates the works, but that by our faith, we allow Jesus Christ to work through us. Faith without works is dead, by the way.

Works doesn't affect salvation or its not by grace.

It's certainly not by faith alone, because I only see one verse that has the phrase "faith alone" in it and that is in James and it says our justification is NOT by faith alone.

Salvation is by grace ALONE.

Grace can be given to us outside of faith.

Grace is something you can't earn OR WORK FOR.

Exactly. But grace can also be given to us prior to us having any faith. But then it comes down to what you do with that grace. Try explaining to Jesus Christ why you didn't use the gifts He gave to you and see what sort of response you wind up getting.

"Yes Jesus, I accepted you into my heart thirty years prior to my death, and I know you tried to move me into charitable works but I refused you, but Jesus, I never ever stopped believing in You, honest!"

[LouisBooth]

"Actually, it is not that our faith validates the works, but that by our faith, we allow Jesus Christ to work through us. Faith without works is dead, by the way."

*sigh* you're taking that verse out of context..why don't you read the WHOLE book before jumping to the wrong conclusion. ;)

"It's certainly not by faith alone, because I only see one verse that has the phrase "faith alone" in it and that is in James and it says our justification is NOT by faith alone. '

And taken out of context, yes that means we are saved by works. Thank goodness its supposed to be taken in context huh?

"Grace can be given to us outside of faith. "

Umm...okay???? Salvation is by grace ALONE. We have faith that saves us and it is made valid by grace. Then we are saved. No works needed.

"Try explaining to Jesus Christ why you didn't use the gifts He gave to you and see what sort of response you wind up getting."

You get no rewards. :) don't mean you aren't saved ;) I really don't think its possible to be saved and not do works, but that DOESN'T mean that I am saved by what I do..for it is by faith alone I am saved, else grace matters not.

[nyj]

*sigh* you're taking that verse out of context..why don't you read the WHOLE book before jumping to the wrong conclusion.

Ah yes, the almighty "You've taken it out of context and/or have not read the Epistle." card. I just loooovveee when that card is played. Matter of fact, The Epistle of James happens to be one of my favorite Epistles. Rather Louis, I think you are doing a bunch of mental gymnastics in order to wiggle your way out of James' obvious insistance on an active works-based faith. Actions speak louder than words, right?

And taken out of context, yes that means we are saved by works. Thank goodness its supposed to be taken in context huh?

No, wrong, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars. You already played the "taken out of context" card anyways. What James is saying is that any true faith will result in works. If you do not do the works, your faith is nothing more than belief and we know that even the demons believe, so don't go kidding yourself when you say "Lord, lord..." when you're sinning hand over fist.

We have faith that saves us and it is made valid by grace. Then we are saved. No works needed.

Your ALMOST there, but not quite. If, after you develop this faith, you do no works, you're lost. That's exactly what James is saying. Don't think you've finished the race once God bestows His graces upon you, because the race has only just begun. Now you have to run it.

You get no rewards. don't mean you aren't saved.

You need to re-read the Matthew verses I supplied and you didn't even address. You want to be a goat, or a sheep?

[LouisBooth]

"Actions speak louder than words, right?"

Okay, if you don't want to read chapter 1 for yourself then lets look at how James sets up his letter. Personally I think the statement "What good is it, my borhters, if aman claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him?" is enough. James clearly makes the point that its not true faith because true faith expresses itself in deeds just like a dog barks, but the barking doesn't make it a dog.

"If you do not do the works, your faith is nothing more than belief and we know that even the demons believe"

Here you have shown me you didn't look at that verse closely. Believe and have faith in or belief are very different things. Check your greek bible for more details ;)

"after you develop this faith, you do no works, you're lost. "

Not according to the thief that was saved on the cross. He did NO works and was saved. Opps..there goes that arguement.

"That's exactly what James is saying"

No, james is saying if you are a christian then live like it. It is a correctional letter, not a letter of theology. Look at verse 19 and you should see that.

"You need to re-read the Matthew verses I supplied and you didn't even address. You want to be a goat, or a sheep?"

*sigh* you obviously didn't look at anything I told you to look at. So tell me, when does a sheep stop being a sheep then? If its not once saved always saved then show me where it shows a sheep turning into a goat...hmmm? Point of the story: THEY DON'T. Faith alone bro.

[nyj]

Okay, if you don't want to read chapter 1 for yourself then lets look at how James sets up his letter.

There you go with that "You haven't read it so you don't know what you're talking about" attitude again. Stop it please.

"What good is it, my borhters, if aman claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him?" is enough. James clearly makes the point that its not true faith because true faith expresses itself in deeds just like a dog barks, but the barking doesn't make it a dog.

No, that is not the point James is making. James is speaking to those who think that by their faith alone, they will be saved. That is the entire point of his whole Epistle, which is why I stated:

"If you do not do the works, your faith is nothing more than belief and we know that even the demons believe."

Not according to the thief that was saved on the cross. He did NO works and was saved. Opps..there goes that arguement.

Not so fast Mr Booth. The thief actively participated in his salvation when he asked Jesus for forgiveness. Given his remaining lifespan, that was all the work he was required to do. He was a vocal witness to the power of Jesus Christ, admonishing the other thief.

No, james is saying if you are a christian then live like it.

Exactly. You better live like it, because if you just think you're one and you don't act it, you're going to be in for a rude awakening come judgement time.

you obviously didn't look at anything I told you to look at.

Well, we're on par for the course then eh? :p

So tell me, when does a sheep stop being a sheep then?

Wow, now we're mixin arguments eh? In the end, we will either be a sheep or be a goat. What our final status is, depends on how we lived our lives. If I believe I'm a sheep, but I bray like a goat, I'm still a goat, even though I'm living amongst the shee.

[LouisBooth]

"Stop it please."

I'm not trying to be condesenting. Just like if I talk to you about math and you say yeah..one and one are three..I will say, man you don't know what you're talking about. That is the case here.

"No, that is not the point James is making. "

That's exactly the ponit James is making. Look at the openning statements of the letter. He starts off with encouragement for the people he is writting to must not be living right or he would be talking about how you should live what you believe. Then in verse 19 he starts his case. in verse 22 he hits home.."Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselvesl.Do what it says." James is saying live like you are a christian!! Don't just confess and fool yourselves into beleiving that is real faith. He is saying its a matter of the heart and the actions reflect the heart. Again he shows that in verse 26. He is written to people that take the extreme. the same people that Paul probalby was talking to when he said should we sin so that grace abounds more..surely not!

The summation of the letter is found in verse 22 "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceiver yourselves. Do what is says." Live like you're a christian.

"The thief actively participated in his salvation when he asked Jesus for forgiveness. "

:lol: the thief did NOTHING. The only thing he did was have faith in Christ. That's it. Why? Because that's all it takes.

"You better live like it, because if you just think you're one and you don't act it"

*sigh* no that's not it at all. Salvation is by grace alone. Go look that up and see what it means. Faith by grace..that's IT. Nothing else or it wouldn't be grace. No works, period!

"depends on how we lived our lives"

So we have to earn salvation now huh? Then you spell it god and not God because you're taking power away from him. It is by grace ALONE we are saved. It is to people like you Paul was talking to when he said 1. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Let me state that whole passage for you so you can understand. Paul makes it very clear. " This righteouness from God comes through FAITH in zjesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified freely by his GRACE though the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. then in verse 28 "For we maintain that a man is JUSTIFED BY FAITH APART FROM OBSERVING THE LAW (ie any good work you can name)."

Paul again says it in eps "NOT BY WORKS..."

How often does the bible have to say it for you to believe it huh? Your last statement is utter foolishness. You can't be a goat and a sheep at the same time, nor can a goat turn into a sheep or vice versa. once you are saved you are saved permiently and works have NOTHING to do with it.

[InspectorVol]

taken in realation with the whole biblical message ( in the NT not the OT as we don't live under that law) not by a verse extracted here and there and ignoring the rest of the scripture, but include everything and prove your point that way, and not by your own ideas. Remember before you read this we are to be lovers of the truth, not lovers of our own ideas.

www.gospelway.com/salvation/salvation_by_faith.htm[ (http://www.gospelway.com/salvation/salvation_by_faith.htm[)

[epobre]

LouisBooth,

You say salvation is by "Grace ALONE". Please tell us what "grace" means.

You say salvation is by "Faith ALONE." Please tell us what you understand by "faith."

How can salvation be by :Grace ALONE" yet it is ALSO by "Faith ALONE?" Is this the same as 1 + 1 + 1 = 1?

Now, please answer these questions that I have been asking you for sometime now:

Can anyone be SAVED by Grace ALONE and/or Faith ALONE even if he HAS NOT DONE the WILL of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:21).

Can anyone be SAVED by Grace ALONE and/or Faith ALONE even if he HAS NOT ENTERED the fold as Jesus COMMANDS (John 10:9)?

Can anyone be SAVED by Grace ALONE and/or Faith ALONE even if one DOES NOT BELIEVE everything Jesus says (John 8:40 together with John 17:3,1)?

Don't tell me I'm taking the verse out of context now or that I should go to the Greeks. That's an old overworked trick that religious MAGICIANS use.

Ed

[snw7]

Ed - there is absolutely nothing wrong with going back to the greek texts. That's the original language it was written in and so much gets lost in translation that without it you wouldn't even have the current versions we use. You even said yourself in one of your other posts that you and your church use different versions to get close to what the original meant. What's so wrong with wanting to use the original? I just don't understand.

Louis -
I'm paraphrasing, but here is a quote by St. Francis of Assisi "At all times preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words." Just our whole existence and life (what we do, what we say, etc.) should be worship to God totally for His Glory 100% of the time. That means our faith manifesting itself in our works. It has absolutely zero to do with the concept of being saved by what you do. But if I were a non-christian, it gives me something to pique my curiousity when I see you living out your faith - not by your preaching to me. When i see your faith in action - then I can see what your type of faith can do in my life and then I would be more apt to have faith myself. They all work together.

Shawn

[txpiper]

"Can anyone be SAVED by Grace ALONE and/or Faith ALONE even if he HAS NOT DONE the WILL of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:21)."

Well, let's work on this. First, you need to show the whole passage.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These workers are gonna hear some bad news at the GWThrone. He does not recognise their busy little loser souls. This means they did not do the will of the Father, which is the "rules for entry" back in verse 21.

The will of the Father has to do with belief as revealed in John.

John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If you are trying to pay installments on your salvation with good deeds, you are in serious danger.

[InspectorVol]

It will answer any questions if anyone will read it.

[epobre]

snw7,

You wrote: Ed - there is absolutely nothing wrong with going back to the greek texts. That's the original language it was written in and so much gets lost in translation that without it you wouldn't even have the current versions we use. You even said yourself in one of your other posts that you and your church use different versions to get close to what the original meant. What's so wrong with wanting to use the original? I just don't understand.

When you say you go to the Greek, do you really mean the ORIGINAL Greek manuscripts or a TRANSLATION of the original Greek manuscript? I don't believe YOU nor LouisBooth can TRULY read and understand the ORIGINMAL Greek manuscripts.

You wrote: I'm paraphrasing, but here is a quote by St. Francis of Assisi "At all times preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words." Just our whole existence and life (what we do, what we say, etc.) should be worship to God totally for His Glory 100% of the time. That means our faith manifesting itself in our works. It has absolutely zero to do with the concept of being saved by what you do. But if I were a non-christian, it gives me something to pique my curiousity when I see you living out your faith - not by your preaching to me. When i see your faith in action - then I can see what your type of faith can do in my life and then I would be more apt to have faith myself. They all work together.

This is precisely what TV evangelists do. They don't really care whether anyone will be saved by what they are doing. They concentrate their preaching on what faith can do for their lives. That's why "Prosperity Gospels" and "Healing Gospels" thrive.

Ed

[nyj]

I've clicked on that link several times, each time it says page unavailable, so it's actually not answering any of my questions.

[Thunderchild]

Too many OSAS threads. In future, I'll only be checking OSAS part 2 for further debate.

Final from me for this thread - Paul answers the objection that works don't mean a person is saved. "If I keep the whole of the law, yet do not love - if I have faith enough to move mountains, yet do not love : grace will be with-held." Without cavil. We respond to God's grace by extending love, and acting on that love, or the faith we have, and the grace extended to us, will be revoked.

[LouisBooth]

ed, as always you're off just enough to be dangerously wrong.

"Please tell us what "grace" means."

Grace is getting something you can not do anything to get. Ie works.

"Please tell us what you understand by "faith.""

Our response to Grace.

"Can anyone be SAVED by Grace ALONE and/or Faith ALONE even if he HAS NOT DONE the WILL of the Father in heaven "

Read romans 9-11 Paul addresses that problem with Isreal's rejection of Christ and comes to the conclusion that they will be saved. Why? Because God is sovergn

"Can anyone be SAVED by Grace ALONE and/or Faith ALONE even if he HAS NOT ENTERED the fold as Jesus COMMANDS "

Yes, because being saved by Grace alone though faith you enter that gate. Thats how you get it ed.

"Just our whole existence and life (what we do, what we say, etc.) should be worship to God totally for His Glory 100% of the time."

Ahh..you miss an interesting point that our ST. makes (I love that quote by the way) this is POST salvation. The action talked about here is preaching the word, not salvation. This comes from a true faith being expressed. I totally agree with you when you say it works together. If you read my openning post you will see that :) The point I make is that works are a POST salvation event.

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

TXpiper, that proves it right there..they where never know, true faith was never there. Again proving works don't save, only true faith does.

"I don't believe YOU nor LouisBooth can TRULY read and understand the ORIGINMAL Greek manuscripts."

Ed, you wouldn't be able to understand greek if God himself told you. You're so set in believing in your way and no one else's it will only take God telling you you're wrong...which is fine by me, but I'm sure when he tells you Jesus is God, you'll feel kinda bad ;)

oh..the link is wrong...I even replaced the :"[" with l to say html and it still didnt work.

[InspectorVol]

I don't know what the problem is. I will try and link a different one for you. Have you tried to copy and paste to your browser?



www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/homepage.html (http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/homepage.html)

[InspectorVol]

Why does it have to be only one thing that we believe in when all of these are mentioned as mentioned in the bible and therefore important to our ultimate salvation.

Why can't it be just what the bible says; We are saved by God's grace(because we can't achieve the perfection that Christ did because we are only humans) because we have faith that he is God and can save us, which, if we do his will as commanded we have works that prove our faith to be true faith, instead of a dead faith which will condemn us.
It is a geniously simple plan that we as humans continue to screw up because we want something to talk about to make us feel more important than we really are.

[LouisBooth]

BEcause thats not what the bible says. It says faith alone. :) Grace through faith alone. That's it. Anything else and it isn't grace. To do works to prove your faith is contrary to what grace is. Either its grace or its works. Can't have it both ways.

[InspectorVol]

My statement does conform to what the bible says Louis.
It mentions God's grace which save us, it also mentions
faith which we must have to recieve God's grace, it also mentions
works which james said that "faith without works is dead".
This is all plainly stated in the bible and I ythink we all agree
on that. The difference is I put them all together and many
people don't.
Lets examine why I do that: First let say that I in no way put man's
works above God's grace that would be stupid.
Grace is a gift from god that we may be saved,( I think
everyone believes that), if we have faith in him,(I think we all
believe that as well), it is works that define our faith as a true faith or
a dead faith( i think we all would agree with that after all that is
what the bible say isn't it)? Now when we combine this we get
Grace through faith through works, its very simple and
completely scriptural.
It all works very well together because works do not I repeat
do not affect God's grace in any way, but works have a
direct impact on our faith, because if we do good works
then we have a true faith, if we don't do works we have a dead faith
that will condemn us because that is what James said. All this being
said works although they don't save us directly they have a definete
impact on our ultimate hope of salvation that we all our striving for.
I hope this clears up my position and maybe helps bring a little
clarity to this whole subject.

[Redeemed1]

Originally posted by Pastor Thunderchild
?

The Bible never says "faith alone", it says "faith".

In one place it says "you are saved by faith"
In another "you are saved by grace"
in another "you are saved by the gospel"

No problems arise until some numbnut adds "alone" to one of the statements.

Numbnut. Interesting word.

If it is not faith "alone" that saves us...then what PLUS faith saves us? Works? It does say we are saved by grace...THROUGH FAITH. And it is the Good News of Jesus Christ (the Gospel) that we are able to be saved at all...BY FAITH IN IT.

Just call me "Numbnut"

[InspectorVol]

Yes I can because that is what the bible says, unless you delete James from your bible. Does james not say that
faith without works is dead? Yes he does. This does not mean works take the place of grace because they can't.

Works by themselves do not save us because the bible says so. We are saved by grace and not of works lest any man
should boast. You believe that don't you? The bible also says we are saved by grace through our faith in God. You believe
that also don't you. Do you not also believe what James said about faith without works is dead? What works do for us is plain,
if we have works then we have a true faith in God, if we have no works then we have a dead faith and will be condemned.
Works by themselves are useless just as faith without works is useless, that is plainly written in the bible. Works will not directly save you
because grace does that, but works directly impact what kind of faith you have and how that faith is judged, therefore works have to be important
to us because of that. We can't simply proclaim 'I HAVE FAITH" and then do nothing and expect God to have mercy on us.

[Redeemed1]

Please tell me where it states that if my faith is dead, I am condemned. Or that I will be judged according to the kind of faith I have. That is plainly saying that my salvation hinges on the works that I do. If that is the case, then please tell me exactly how many works are enough to save me. If I don't do enough, then I go to hell, regardless of whether or not I have placed my trust in the atoning death of Jesus Christ on my behalf?

I do believe the book of James, as I do the rest of the Bible. I do not however, believe that what he is saying is that without works I am condemned.

[InspectorVol]

If you read these verses from james it plainly states what faith without works is worth to anyone, nothing. If you read the verse from Revelation then you see that we are judged
according to our works, good or bad. Do you remember the verse that says you are either for God or against him? When you apply that to works you are either working for God
or you are working against him.
Quote
"If that is the case, then please tell me exactly how many works are enough to save me. If I don't do enough, then I go to hell,
regardless of whether or not I have placed my trust in the atoning death of Jesus Christ on my behalf?"
I can't answer how many because I don't do the judging he does. If I had to guess I would say and this is my opinion you have to do enough to keep your faith
vibrant and alive and growing and not stagnet and lifeless with no works. We need to look at it like this, works are not burden to be borne by us, but a way to let
our faith in him grow as we see the good that comes as we do our works out of LOVE.
Let me say one other thing here: If we ever feel that good works are a burden on us then we have a serious problem with our faith,
because we should be glad to do things for others because we have God's love in our hearts.These are good example verses of some who did works and some who didn't and what Jesus thought about it:
Matthew:
25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
25:36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
25:37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
25:38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
25:39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
25:40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
25:43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
25:44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
25:45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

James
1:25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
1:26If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
James
2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
2:16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
2:20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
2:21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
2:22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
2:23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
2:25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Revelation
.22:12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

[Blackhawk]

inspectorVol,
"If that is the case, then please tell me exactly how many works are enough to save me. If I don't do enough, then I go to hell, regardless of whether or not I have placed my trust in the atoning death of Jesus Christ on my behalf?"

"I can't answer how many because I don't do the judging he does. If I had to guess I would say and this is my opinion you have to do enough to keep your faith vibrant and alive and growing and not stagnet and lifeless with no works."

If no one knows how many works you have to do in order to be saved then there is no peace. Why? Because I have no assurance of salvation at all. I can never know if I am saved or not. Are you a Christian? You can't know because you do not have a guideline to tell you that you are one.

blackhaw6

[Redeemed1]

[i]
Let me say one other thing here: If we ever feel that good works are a burden on us then we have a serious problem with our faith,
because we should be glad to do things for others because we have God's love in our hearts.. [/B]

I am not arguing the value of works for the Kingdom of God. I personally delight in serving my Lord in any way He calls me to. I do believe I was created for good works. What I am arguing is that you insist that if I DO NOT do works, I am not saved, and I'm sorry but that is not what the Word of God teaches us. Upon my profession of faith in Christ my name was written in the Lamb's Book of Life...I will not stand to be judged in the same way that unbelievers are judged. Period. Will I bear fruit for the kingdom of God? Will I hear "well done good and faithful servant" if I refuse to serve? I would say no. Does that condemn me to hell? NO.

As I said, I am not arguing the value of work and service. I am emphatically arguing against a doctrine that states that anything other than my faith in Jesus Christ brings me salvation.

[Optimus_P]

i do agree that you will be judged by your works (actions).

Is there a magic number ot save you? No. no where does it support this idea. Just that your works will show how strong your faith is. And why do you do these works? because you love your Fathers, you want to please him anyway you can, and telling him is just not enuff. The contents of your heart is shown in your actions.

Works help keep you on the proper path by showing the demons and devil that no amount of temptation can sway you. You are doing these things to show your love to the father. In return the Father will grant you "stuff" in heaven.

by grace and faith you have been saved. by works you gain favor in the Lords eye. Let your works be for love not for greedyness for the Lord will see what is in your heart and in your mind.

[Redeemed1]

Personally, I think being in the presence of God will be enough "stuff" for me in heaven. But I gladly serve Him as long as I continue in this flesh. And now, I'm very weary of arguing this endless issue...so I quit. God bless to all of you.

[InspectorVol]

Quote "Will I bear fruit for the kingdom of God? Will I hear "well done good and faithful servant" if I refuse to serve?
I would say no. Does that condemn me to hell? NO."

Redeemed 1 I have a question and I hope you are not so weary as to not answer. You said in your quote that if you
did not bear fruit you didn't think you would hear "well done good and faithful servant". If you(or me) don't hear those
words what words will we hear at that time? I always thought that we would be judged one way or another, either good or bad?

[Redeemed1]

This is my opinion: If I have not been a good and faithful servant (a servant is one who serves, or works), then I won't hear those words. Doesn't mean I won't hear "welcome home" or something. I really don't know. It has also been my understanding that yes, my works will be judged but not for the purpose of salvation or condemnation. If my works will determine my salvation at the end, then the blood of Christ was to no avail.

There are various doctrines regarding once saved always saved, works vs faith, etc. You believe what you believe, and I say God bless you. Perhaps in the end we'll both be wrong, or perhaps each of us had a part of the truth. But we have Christ in common, and a love for God and His Word. I think I'd prefer to discuss what we have in common, rather than what we disagree on. So, may God's blessings be upon you this day, and may the light of Christ in you shine brightly before men today.

[InspectorVol]

James 1

26

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Blackhaw6 It seems as though I can't make myself clear or that I have and it makes people uncomfortable because it conflicts what they believe.

Quote"If no one knows how many works you have to do in order to be saved then there is no peace. Why?
Because I have no assurance of salvation at all. I can never know if I am saved or not. Are you a Christian?
You can't know because you do not have a guideline to tell you that you are one."

What does this mean? What does this have to do with anything I have said? I think you are putting words in my mouth that I haven't said.
Let me ask you a question: What does it mean to bear good fruit? It means that you have done good works in the sight of God, ie you have been a faithful servant.
If people want to believe that works have no bearing on their faith then just keep ignoring what James is telling those he is talking to. Those of us who truly have Faith in God our lives
will have good works but those of us who claim to have Faith in God but do no works LIE. I really don't see the contraversy in this that others do because it seems so simple
and in harmony with the rest of the bible. I am not discounting anything the Lord said, in fact I have made more than one post and posted a link that shows what works mean to us
and how they are completely scriptural with grace and faith. Let me make this clear, I am not judging anyone at all, I would hope they would take what I have said and really study it
without any assumptions and make there own decision based on the truth and then go from there because we are all responsible for our own salvation.

[InspectorVol]

Redeemed1 I thank you for your nice words and I sincerly hope that we all are there in the end because it will be a glorious place.
Personally I like to discuss differences with others so I can put my beliefs and theirs before the word and see which is the truest to try and make sure
I don't have a false doctrine. I leave you now with the infamous words of a TV star that I added a little to
"Live long and prosper in the Lord"

[Blackhawk]

Inspector,

I might of misunderstood what you were saying. I too believe works have something to do with salvation. I believe that works show others that you have faith. That Faith only saves you but you have to have works because they are a natural when you have faith.

blackhaw6