Constantine the Great

[Philip]

Do you recognize Constantine the Great as a Saint? What about his mother, Helena?

[PaladinValer]

Helena would definitely be a Saint, and I'm pretty sure Emperor Constantine is one too.

So yes for both out of me :)

[Naomi4Christ]

I think we are all saints.

[Simon_Templar]

Constantine is a very interesting character... difficult to really make a simple picture of him... I tend to think he was a genuine believer.. After Nicea, however, he did fall into arianism. Its very hard to make a clear call on that one.. I don't know what the orthodox and catholic churches say

[SirTimothy]

I am part of the parish of St. Helena's, so I'd say yes. :)

Timothy

[Philip]

I don't know what the orthodox and catholic churches say

We venerate both. I have been told that Rome acknowledges Helena but not Constantine.

[SirTimothy]

We venerate both. I have been told that Rome acknowledges Helena but not Constantine.

I don't know if we do Constantine, actually...

Timothy (I'll ask my priest)

[Naomi4Christ]

We venerate both. I have been told that Rome acknowledges Helena but not Constantine.

:confused: What does this mean (in plain English)?

[gtsecc]

Helen is August 18th, but not all parishes celebrate it.







Constantine is May 22, I think? Again, not all celebrate it.



Of course, we all celebrate Helen’s finding of the Holy Cross – September 14th.

We had a fantastic service, double incense, chanted readings, red vestments!

[thejesusfish90]

:confused: What does this mean (in plain English)?

Basically that the Roman Catholic Church recognises and believes in the intercession of St Helena, but not Constantine (He hasn't yet been cannonised (the required process a deceased must go through in order to be considered a saint, I think its 3 miracles atributed to them))... lol, but you are right when you said that were all (those who hold faith in and follow Jesus) are saints!, were just not with Jesus yet and our capacity to interceed even if we were in heaven is unlikely to be recognised by the Roman Catholic Church.... lol, this sounds really odd from me, who doesn't venerate any saints and acutally posesses an aversion to the practice.... :P....

YBIC

Chris

[gtsecc]

:confused: What does this mean (in plain English)?
Worship is only for God, but Saints are give a level of respect and contemplation of their lives that we don't do for ordinary persons. Just as we contemplate the life of folks in the OT, such as Abraham, we don't think God stopped redeeming people in the last 2,000 years.

[Fish and Bread]

I think we are all saints.

I agree with you. St. Paul is very clear in referring to all faithful Christians, on earth and in heaven, as saints. I think what they're talking about on this thread is Saints with a capital "S", though, which means any faithful Christian now in heaven who provided an extraordinary example of what it means to be a Christian, either through his or her life or writings or both. Good examples would be a few select leaders of the church such as the Apostles, humanitarians like Mother Theresa, and famous theologians like Martin Luther or (to provide an Anglican example) possibly C.S. Lewis. The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches have formal process for determining who gets the capital "S" in their communions, but the process for most Anglican churches is much more informal (Kind of a concensus sort of thing). Usually people with "feast days" (i.e. Christian holidays) devoted to them in a given are assumed to be saints for that given church, though that is not universally agreed to by everyone.

John

[Naomi4Christ]

The problem I have with the RC view of saints, beatification etc. is that it seems to make heaven a rather exclusive club. No room for people like me!

[Fish and Bread]

The problem I have with the RC view of saints, beatification etc. is that it seems to make heaven a rather exclusive club. No room for people like me!

And have you noticed that all the Roman Catholic saints after the reformation just happen to be Roman Catholic? It's almost as if they think no great Christians could possible belong to another denomination! I am glad the Episcopal Church seems to take a broader view and include people from all Christian faith traditions, including folks with some flaws who nevertheless did some great work in building the Kingdom of God. For example, Martin Luther was anti-semetic and had a love for beer, but some of his writings were so holy and his positive impact on the Christain Church so great that we honor him with a feast day and many remember him as a Saint.

I like the Saints that have a few human failings here and there. I can emphasis with St. Thomas the Apostle for the same reasons I can with St. Martin, neither were perfect, but their humanity makes them more compelling to me than the Saints who seemed to never make a mistake or do anything that was questionable (Even though I know every one of them must have sinned from time to time). Another example is the first Archbishop of Canterbury under a Protestant King, Thomas Cramner, hid a wife when he was sworn to celibacy and actually recanted his faith briefly under Roman Catholic inquisitors when Bloody Mary took the thrown, but he also created the first Book of Common Prayer, which has helped millions of Christians around the world and through history build a closer relationship to the Risen Christ, and he died for his faith, making him a martyar.

Now, even these Saints with flaws are probably more than I could even hope to strive for being like, but they're in many respects good examples of the grace of God and the fact that even imperfect people like you and I and, to a certain extent, the entire world, can do some wonderful things with God's help if he wills it. After all, if God can elevate people who are great but flawed to such honored places at his table, then it makes it easier for me to believe his scriptural promise that even folks like me who are much more flawed than great can sort of slip in and take small stools at the end of the table. :)

John

[gtsecc]

The problem I have with the RC view of saints, beatification etc. is that it seems to make heaven a rather exclusive club. No room for people like me!
That is not the RC view of Saints.

[gtsecc]

All Churches accept the Saints, capital S.
Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican.

[Fish and Bread]

All Churches accept the Saints, capital S.
Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican.

There we start getting into the meaning of Church. To me, a Church is anywhere Christians regularly go to communally pray, study, and to break bread in Christ's name. In that sense, I don't think Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, and other denominations are any less churches than the groups you mentioned. No denomination is without it's theological flaws, and that includes Anglicans, but I know God loves us despite them.

John

[Philip]

The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches have formal process for determining who gets the capital "S" in their communions, but the process for most Anglican churches is much more informal (Kind of a concensus sort of thing).

Our process differs substantially from the RC process. Ours is a much more bottom-up process. Usually the veneration of a Saint will begin with a small group, often at his/her home parish. If this veneration spreads and is acceptable to the Church as a whole, the person will be formally canonized by (a) bishop(s). We do not have specific requirements of a prescribed number of miracles.

[Naomi4Christ]

That is not the RC view of Saints.

It was only what I saw on a History Channel show about the Vatican.

What do you think hte RC view is?

[Naomi4Christ]

All Churches accept the Saints, capital S.
Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican.

What do you mean by 'accept'?

[Philip]

It was only what I saw on a History Channel show about the Vatican.

What do you think hte RC view is?

Heaven is not limited to the canonized Saints.

[Naomi4Christ]

Heaven is not limited to the canonized Saints.

So why the fuss over beatification/canonisation? Let's face it, we are fairly certain that those servants of Christ are going to make it to heaven!

[Philip]

So why the fuss over beatification/canonisation? Let's face it, we are fairly certain that those servants of Christ are going to make it to heaven!

But are you certain as to who is a servant of Christ and who isn't?

[SirTimothy]

All Churches accept the Saints, capital S.
Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican.

This is where I disagree with you that these are the only Churches. In all honesty, and with the greatest possible respect, I think you're being very arrogant when you state that these are the only Churches. They may be the fulness of the church--I agree with you that the Anglican church is that :)--but they are not the only Churches.

Timothy (And yes, I'm a Yes, Minister fan)

[Naomi4Christ]

But are you certain as to who is a servant of Christ and who isn't?

The same could be said for the vatican!

I believe that God is merciful and compassionate and turns few away who call upon him.

[Naomi4Christ]

This is where I disagree with you that these are the only Churches. In all honesty, I think you're being very arrogant when you state that these are the only Churches. They may be the fulness of the church--I agree with you that the Anglican church is that :)--but they are not the only Churches.

Timothy

And some parts of the Anglican church ignore the concept of canonised saints completely. OK, we do occasionally mention our patron saints, but in a fairly secular fashion (like inviting the Girl Guides on St George's day).

[Philip]

The same could be said for the vatican!

Yes, it can. However, the Vatican has established some rules by which they try to answer that question. The process of canonization is the Vatican's way of saying, 'We believe this particular person is in heaven.'

I believe that God is merciful and compassionate and turns few away who call upon him.

I think we all agree about this. However, for the most part, we don't know who truly calls on Him and who just moves their lips.

[Naomi4Christ]

Yes, it can. However, the Vatican has established some rules by which they try to answer that question. The process of canonization is the Vatican's way of saying, 'We believe this particular person is in heaven.'

But it has to be a redundant process, surely?

My very personal point of view, and my objective is not to trash anyone's beliefs - but as much as some of you cringe at evangelical terms - personal relationship etc. - I feel the same about practices such as canonisation.

[Philip]

But it has to be a redundant process, surely?

Redundant with what?

[gtsecc]

My very personal point of view, and my objective is not to trash anyone's beliefs - but as much as some of you cringe at evangelical terms - personal relationship etc. - I feel the same about practices such as canonisation.
That is fine and perfectly Anglican.
However, it is different than the faith handed down to us.
Do you accept all 7 eccumenical councils?

[Philip]

Do you accept all 7 eccumenical councils?

Oooo...that reminds me of another question I wanted to ask.

[gitlance]

For example, Martin Luther was anti-semetic and had a love for beer, but some of his writings were so holy and his positive impact on the Christain Church so great that we honor him with a feast day and many remember him as a Saint.



Not to be contrary, but that man's rebellion led to there being somewhere in the range of 28000 Protestant groups/sects/denominations/home-churches/etc worldwide today.

[Simon_Templar]

Dogsbody,


The issue of canonization/beatification is simply a "stamp of approval" on someone. It would be like if your church came up with a list of christian writers down through the ages whose books are recomended for reading because your church felt that their lives and works exemplified them as christians. It doesn't say that you or I aren't saints, or that we won't join the same company as all the "Saints" its simply the church saying "we're reasonably certain that this person was a real believer and thus is worthy of respect and contemplation" etc.

Of course all of this is strongly tied up with the idea of intercession of the Saints.. the idea that the saints pray for us before God. That makes the issue more important just like you, I'm sure, would want to be careful if you ask fellow christians to pray for you on certain topics... you'd want to make sure that the people you are asking to pray for you are genuine and trustworthy believers.. Thats what the process of canonization is, basicly.

[Naomi4Christ]

That is fine and perfectly Anglican.
However, it is different than the faith handed down to us.
Do you accept all 7 eccumenical councils?

"Do I accept...?" - what do you mean by that? I haven't a clue about the 7 ecumenical councils and they do not impact on my daily life. That's not where the message lies. You miss the whole point when you worry about these things, in my opinion.

[karen freeinchristman]

I'm going to start a thread about the 7 ecumenical councils, as I don't have any idea what they are either. Please someone who knows, respond to my new thread but in a plain English and summarised fashion!