Are you a Christian? (10 Questions + 1)

[jonas3]

1. Do you believe that the gospel is God’s promise to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone towards His people alone?

2. Do you believe that every regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) believes the gospel?

3. Do you believe that it is impossible for a regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) to confess a false gospel?

4. Do you believe that God does not desire to save everyone without exception?

5. Do you believe that all who profess that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception (i.e. universal atonement) are unregenerate?

6. Do you believe that God does not make faith in Jesus Christ a prerequisite to being regenerated?

7. Do you believe that all who believe in a false gospel are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?

8. Do you believe that the theological system known as Arminianism is a false gospel?

9. Do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?

10. Do you believe that all who profess that universal atonement advocates are saved are themselves unregenerate (i.e. not saved)?

+1. Do you believe that you were unregenerate (i.e. not saved) when you believed in a false gospel of conditional salvation?



If your answer to any of the above questions is a "NO", then you are not a Christian (i.e. you’re unregenerate), because you do not believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. You may even object, and say that you do believe in the true gospel; however, if you maintain that any of the above questions should be answered as “NO”, then you really do not understand (i.e. believe) the gospel. You may not comprehend how or why this is true about you, but that is irrelevant, because the gospel is hidden unto you, and you are currently lost (2Cor 4:3). Your only hope for salvation is that God causes you to repent and believe the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, if your answer to one or more of the above questions is a "NO", and you wish to discuss the reasons why you think it should be a "NO", then please restate the question(s) and answer the following with each:

1. What are the reasons you disagree with the question?
2. Why don't you think it's a denial of the gospel to disagree with the question?

-jonas

[Behe's Boy]

What specifically is your definition of Arminianism? That would affect my stand on questions 8 and 9.

[seekingpurity047]

If your answer to any of the above questions is a "NO", then you are not a Christian (i.e. you’re unregenerate), because you do not believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. You may even object, and say that you do believe in the true gospel; however, if you maintain that any of the above questions should be answered as “NO”, then you really do not understand (i.e. believe) the gospel. You may not comprehend how or why this is true about you, but that is irrelevant, because the gospel is hidden unto you, and you are currently lost (2Cor 4:3). Your only hope for salvation is that God causes you to repent and believe the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, if your answer to one or more of the above questions is a "NO", and you wish to discuss the reasons why you think it should be a "NO", then please restate the question(s) and answer the following with each:

1. What are the reasons you disagree with the question?
2. Why don't you think it's a denial of the gospel to disagree with the question?

-jonas

So wait... I'm not a christian? Wow... Last time that i heard... in order to be a christian, you needed to apply this.

Romans 10:9

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I think that verse pretty well sums it up.

Randy

[jonas3]

What specifically is your definition of Arminianism? That would affect my stand on questions 8 and 9.

I will say that the theological system known as "Arminianism" is defined by the free-will doctrines that include belief in one or more of the following:

1. Partial Depravity
2. Conditional Election
3. Universal Atonement
4. Resistible Grace
5. Conditional Perseverance

If anyone believes in any of those doctrines he or she can rightly be called an "Arminian". If someone believes in free-will or conditional salvation in any form, then he or she can rightly be called an "Arminian".

-jonas

[edb19]

So wait... I'm not a christian? Wow... Last time that i heard... in order to be a christian, you needed to apply this.

Romans 10:9

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I think that verse pretty well sums it up.

Randy

I'm with you Randy. There will be folks in heaven with very different doctrine than we have - some will be Arminian, some LDS, some Roman Catholics, some Jehovah's Witnesses, and some Calvinists. And there will be folks who espouse any of the above who won't be in heaven. Why - because they are these things in name only.

Do I believe the reformed perspective is correct? You bet. Scripture teaches us that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for God's glory. But, if a person confesses Christ as Lord and Savior, repents of their sin and believes - they will be in heaven.

There's a thread in the same reformed forum regarding "what are our faults in light of our theology." Well, Jonas, questioning someone else's faith to the point that we're calling them a false Christian would be right up there.

[reformedfan]

JWs & LDS won't be in heaven if they don't repent of their unbiblical view of Christ.

& Jonas I'm with you on some of those, but not on the Arminian stuff. befopre i was saved i believed, to qan extent, a false Gospel, but not in the way i believe now & the armin stuff is irrelv. Some Calvinists can be unregenerate too, if they think their Calvinism will save them on the day of wrath.

[Jon_]

1. Do you believe that the gospel is God’s promise to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone towards His people alone?
Yes.

2. Do you believe that every regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) believes the gospel?
Yes.

3. Do you believe that it is impossible for a regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) to confess a false gospel?
Define "confess." Is it possible for a regenerate person to be deceived by a false gospel? Yes. Is it possible for a regenerate person to be deceived by such a gospel for the length of his days? No.

4. Do you believe that God does not desire to save everyone without exception?
Yes.

5. Do you believe that all who profess that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception (i.e. universal atonement) are unregenerate?
The deception mentioned in answer three applies to this point as well.

6. Do you believe that God does not require His people to have faith in Jesus Christ before they are regenerated?
No. God commands all men to have faith in Jesus Christ.

7. Do you believe that all who believe in a false gospel are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?
I am in no position to judge what another man truly believes in his heart.

8. Do you believe that the theological system known as Arminianism is a false gospel?
Yes.

9. Do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?
This question is much too vague. If you mean to ask if someone is saved if their faith is placed in the Arminian theological system, then the easy answer is "No, they are not saved," because no system of theology can save. The question becomes vary complicated when one considers that most "Arminians" are incredibly inconsistent in their application of the doctrine, especially when grilled intensely on the necessary implications of it.

Nearly every Arminian I have ever confronted acknowledges their sinfulness before God and their need for grace and faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, even though they don't realize that Arminianism leaves no room for real grace.

10. Do you believe that all who profess that universal atonement advocates are saved are themselves unregenerate (i.e. not saved)?
Universalists that hold to the doctrine that all people will be saved are unregenerate, yes. Those who uphold the doctrine of unlimited atonement are either (1) deceived—and if regenerate, will only be so for such a span as God is willing—or, (2) ignorant of the real implications of their doctrine. These implications they steadfastly deny, which means that they realize how erroneous the doctrine is, but they adhere to it out of a pious desire to not see God made the "Author of sin." This is commendable, but what they don't realize is that they are being irrational and that the problem they are trying to avoid simply does not exist.

The same is true of those who uphold the "sincere offer" of the Gospel. The necessary implication of such a doctrine is the affirmation of an unlimited atonement. That is why I am opposed to it.

+1. Do you believe that you were unregenerate (i.e. not saved) when you believed in a false gospel of conditional salvation?
I never believed in a gospel of conditional salvation.

If your answer to any of the above questions is a "NO", then you are not a Christian (i.e. you’re unregenerate), because you do not believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. You may even object, and say that you do believe in the true gospel; however, if you maintain that any of the above questions should be answered as “NO”, then you really do not understand (i.e. believe) the gospel. You may not comprehend how or why this is true about you, but that is irrelevant, because the gospel is hidden unto you, and you are currently lost (2Cor 4:3). Your only hope for salvation is that God causes you to repent and believe the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
Let's take a look at what you wrote above.

6. Do you believe that God does not require His people to have faith in Jesus Christ before they are regenerated?
Now, let's see what the Bible says:
(Acts 17:30 AV) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Let's look at another passage:
(Gal. 1:9 AV) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

If this is your version of the "true gospel," then I say you are accursed as testified by the Scriptures, and an unregenerate soul standing in the wrath of God. The Lord commands that you repent and believe on his Son Jesus Christ, which is the only name given by which we might be saved. Acknowledge your sins and believe in his atonement for them and judgment will be spared.

Do not, and it will be spared not.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[jonas3]

I'm with you Randy. There will be folks in heaven with very different doctrine than we have - some will be Arminian, some LDS, some Roman Catholics, some Jehovah's Witnesses, and some Calvinists. And there will be folks who espouse any of the above who won't be in heaven. Why - because they are these things in name only.

On the contrary, their will only be regenerate people in heaven, and only regenerate people believe the gospel; therefore, their will only be people who believe the gospel who are in heaven. Everyone else, who does not believe the gospel, is lost according to 2Cor 4:3-4, which states, "3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." - 2Cor 4:3-4.

Arminians, and Catholics, and everyone else you mentioned, do not believe the gospel. Catholics, like Arminians, believe this regarding the atonement,

“...The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: ‘There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.’” – Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 605.

What I am not saying is that an Arminian, or a Catholic, or a Jehovah’s Witness cannot BE saved (i.e. regenerated), but that they are currently NOT saved (i.e. regenerated), while believing in the damnable heresies that their aforementioned religious system ascribes to. When God saves a person from one of these wicked religious systems, they NO LONGER are apart of that religious system. They come out from that religious system, and they now profess a belief in the true gospel of Jesus Christ.


Do I believe the reformed perspective is correct? You bet. Scripture teaches us that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for God's glory. But, if a person confesses Christ as Lord and Savior, repents of their sin and believes - they will be in heaven.

None of the things that you mentioned; namely, confessing Christ as Lord and Savior, or repenting of sin, will result in a person going to heaven. Not one of those things is a prerequisite for salvation. The ONLY thing that will result in the salvation of an individual is if God regenerates that person, and imputes to that person the righteousness of Christ. When, and if, a person is regenerated, and given true faith, they immediately confesses a belief in the true gospel, which is the belief that Jesus Christ has secured salvation for His people alone through His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. When someone is regenerated they are said to be “converted” from the kingdom of darkness, to the kingdom of Christ (i.e. they are now a Christian), and these people alone have redemption from their sins through His blood, as it is written, "13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins" - Col 1:13-14. No one is currently saved (i.e. regenerated) who lacks the knowledge of the gospel (please read Romans 10:2-4). Faith believes that Jesus Christ met all the conditions for salvation; and therefore, faith (or repentance) by definition cannot be a prerequisite for salvation.

There's a thread in the same reformed forum regarding "what are our faults in light of our theology." Well, Jonas, questioning someone else's faith to the point that we're calling them a false Christian would be right up there.

A Christian (i.e. a regenerated person) is not in error concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christians are not in error regarding the gospel because they did not learn it through human endeavors, but by the Spirit of God upon regeneration. Knowledge of the gospel saves no one, but a saved person has knowledge of the gospel, as it is written,

"16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." - Mark 16:16.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - Jn 3:18.

"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." - Ro 1:16-17.

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" - 2Th 1:8.

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" - 1Pet 4:17.

"9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." - 2Jn 1:9-11.

-jonas

[Beoga]

I know I don't have a great sense of smell, but am I the only one that smells a hyper-calvinist in our midst, similar to that of those in Outside the Camp (http://www.outsidethecamp.org/)?

[jonas3]

3. Do you believe that it is impossible for a regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) to confess a false gospel?

Define "confess." Is it possible for a regenerate person to be deceived by a false gospel? Yes. Is it possible for a regenerate person to be deceived by such a gospel for the length of his days? No.

Absolutely wrong. Do you have any Scripture to backup your claim?

6. Do you believe that God does not require His people to have faith in Jesus Christ before they are regenerated?

No. God commands all men to have faith in Jesus Christ.

I did not say "commands", I said "require". Is faith a requirement that precedes regeneration? Of course faith is a commandment, as it is written, "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ..." - 1Jn 3:23. And who believes on the name of His Son Jesus Christ?

7. Do you believe that all who believe in a false gospel are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?

I am in no position to judge what another man truly believes in his heart.

You should read my post in this forum entitled, "Are Christians commanded to judge? (http://www.christianforums.com/t2111919-are-christians-commanded-to-judge.html)".


9. Do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?

This question is much too vague. If you mean to ask if someone is saved if their faith is placed in the Arminian theological system, then the easy answer is "No, they are not saved," because no system of theology can save. The question becomes vary complicated when one considers that most "Arminians" are incredibly inconsistent in their application of the doctrine, especially when grilled intensely on the necessary implications of it.

Nearly every Arminian I have ever confronted acknowledges their sinfulness before God and their need for grace and faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, even though they don't realize that Arminianism leaves no room for real grace.
The question is not vague at all, and you know exactly what it means. You just like to maintain a comfortable gray zone before all men.



10. Do you believe that all who profess that universal atonement advocates are saved are themselves unregenerate (i.e. not saved)?

Universalists that hold to the doctrine that all people will be saved are unregenerate, yes. Those who uphold the doctrine of unlimited atonement are either (1) deceived—and if regenerate, will only be so for such a span as God is willing—or, (2) ignorant of the real implications of their doctrine. These implications they steadfastly deny, which means that they realize how erroneous the doctrine is, but they adhere to it out of a pious desire to not see God made the "Author of sin." This is commendable, but what they don't realize is that they are being irrational and that the problem they are trying to avoid simply does not exist.

The same is true of those who uphold the "sincere offer" of the Gospel. The necessary implication of such a doctrine is the affirmation of an unlimited atonement. That is why I am opposed to it.

You have absolutely no Scriptural evidence to support your first point (1) above. As for point (2) they are definitely ignorant of their doctrine, deadly ignorant (i.e. blind (i.e. lost (i.e. unregenerate))).

+1. Do you believe that you were unregenerate (i.e. not saved) when you believed in a false gospel of conditional salvation?

I never believed in a gospel of conditional salvation.

Wrong, everyone believes in conditional salvation before regeneration. Please read Romans 10:2-4.

6. Do you believe that God does not require His people to have faith in Jesus Christ before they are regenerated?


Now, let's see what the Bible says:



(Acts 17:30 AV) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:



Let's look at another passage:(Gal. 1:9 AV) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I never said that God does not command all men every where to repent. Where did I use the word "command"?


If this is your version of the "true gospel," then I say you are accursed as testified by the Scriptures, and an unregenerate soul standing in the wrath of God. The Lord commands that you repent and believe on his Son Jesus Christ, which is the only name given by which we might be saved. Acknowledge your sins and believe in his atonement for them and judgment will be spared.

Do not, and it will be spared not.


Very harsh words for someone who is, "in no position to judge what another man truly believes in his heart." Hypocrite!

I believe in His atonement, and declared this belief in my post to this forum entitled, "What do Christians believe about the atonement and the gospel? (http://www.christianforums.com/t2092354-what-do-christians-believe-about-the-atonement-and-the-gospel.html)". YOU are the one who disagreed with it, perhaps you should go read that post again.

-jonas

[Jon_]

Absolutely wrong. Do you have any Scripture to backup your claim?
Sure do.
(Ps. 37:23, 24 AV) The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24) Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

(Ezek. 33:11 AV) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

(2 Pt. 3:9 AV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
There are, of course, many many more. But even one citation is sufficient to defeat your premises. (Also note that I have been graced with the true understanding of Ezek. 33:11 and 2 Pt. 3:9 and would not even begin to apply them to the reprobate. These verses clearly speak of the elect and the elect only. As such, this only reinforces my point.)

I did not say "commands", I said "require". Is faith a requirement that precedes regeneration? Of course faith is a commandment, as it is written, "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ..." - 1Jn 3:23. And who believes on the name of His Son Jesus Christ?
I'd certainly like to see the sense in which you mean God requires and how it does not parallel God commands. God requires what he commands and he commands what he requires. It's going to take some serious liguistic acrobatics to get out of this one. If you conceed the point and change it to desires, then I will readily side with you—God does not desire the repentance of all men.

But he certainly commands it. Let me ask you this, does God require our obedience, but not command it? Or vice versa? How do you suppose that?

You should read my post in this forum entitled, "Are Christians commanded to judge? (http://www.christianforums.com/t2111919-are-christians-commanded-to-judge.html)".
I did.



The question is not vague at all, and you know exactly what it means. You just like to maintain a comfortable gray zone before all men.
No, I like to be very specific, which you should as well when you're so freely judging the souls of other men. Now tell me this, if a man can make a false confession of the gospel, is it not possible that a man can make a false confession of a false gospel (thereby still believing the true gospel with his heart, but being ignorant of its true nature)? If not, then prove it.

If belief in a false gospel is sin (which it is), then it follows it is no more unforgiveable than any other sin (apart from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, of course). Therefore, those who are deceived by a false gospel sin by way of their profession of it. God can and does forgive belief in a false gospel, and those who are his will be upheld with his hand and will not forever forsake the true Gospel (see above proof texts).

You have absolutely no Scriptural evidence to support your first point (1) above. As for point (2) they are definitely ignorant of their doctrine, deadly ignorant (i.e. blind (i.e. lost (i.e. unregenerate))).
(1) is proved above. (2) you are misconstruing, but of course you realize that and did so intentionally.

Wrong, everyone believes in conditional salvation before regeneration. Please read Romans 10:2-4.
That's a coerced interpretation if I've ever seen one. Those people who have not received knowledge of the Lord certainly do not pursue conditional salvation before him. Paul is here referring to the hypocritcal scribes and Pharisees, who know the law and do it in their deeds, but not in their hearts (not of faith).

You're reading Romans 10:2-4 as if Romans 1:18-32 is somehow no longer applicable. Those Gentiles who had not received the oracles did not know the true God via special revelation and worshiped idols. Now, the same is true of the Jews in that they worshiped idols and not the one true God, but nevertheless, they had the Holy Scriptures committed to them that they might not walk in darkness. The Jews had the special revelation necessary unto salvation, whereas the Gentiles did not. General revelation alone is not sufficient to save.

Your argument implies that it is, which again, if it remains unqualified, would allude to your teaching of a false gospel.

I never said that God does not command all men every where to repent. Where did I use the word "command"?
Show me the distinction between what God commands and what God requires. There is none. You're backpedelling.

Very harsh words for someone who is, "in no position to judge what another man truly believes in his heart." Hypocrite!
Note the hypothetical tense in which it was presented: "If this is your version. . . ." I honestly do not think that you accept the full implications of your doctrine, and that is your saving grace, same as many "Arminians." They refuse the true implications of their doctrine, which is evidence of their regeneration. When you confront them with the truth of salvation by works when it is conditioned upon faith, they flatly refuse and say that salvation is by grace through faith alone. They are manifestly inconsistent because they know the truth in their heart, they are merely ignorant of the doctrine of God. Those of us who have been granted the wisdom of it are obligated to teach them otherwise.

I question if you truly have the patience or desire to such as mentioned. Do you truly teach the doctrines of grace, or do you simply dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as unregenerate and in need of salvific faith? If so, then there remains no room for doctrine in your gnostic religion because any lack of doctrine would be sufficient to condemn.

There is no distinction between non-Gospel teaching and Gospel teaching in the Scriptures. The entire Bible is written about Christ. It is the special revelation of the Holy Spirit concerning him. The whole of Scripture is the Gospel. For you to assert that a failure to believe any point of the Gospel truly is to show oneself unregenerate is to say that any failure of doctrine at any point in the Bible is sufficient to reveal onself as unregenerate.

That is not what the Scriptures teach.

I believe in His atonement, and declared this belief in my post to this forum entitled, "What do Christians believe about the atonement and the gospel? (http://www.christianforums.com/t2092354-what-do-christians-believe-about-the-atonement-and-the-gospel.html)". YOU are the one who disagreed with it, perhaps you should go read that post again.
As I said above, your understanding of the Gospel is horribly flawed. All of Scripture is interrelated into the Gospel message as the whole of Scripture is about Jesus Christ. For you to pick and choose which doctrinal points are necessary for a "true belief" in the Gospel is to draw distinctions where there are none. The Bible is clear that faith in Jesus Christ that bears fruit unto righteousness is true faith. I know plenty of (inconsistent) Arminians that fall under that category. I also know of (consistent) Arminians that do not fall under that category.

You have no Scriptural support for your revisionist interpretation of the Gospel and hence are judging souls at your own peril. I exhort you in the name of Christ to abandon this deceitful judgment and to confess your sins to the Father and those whom you have wronged, for you are sinfully judging men, which fruit is only wrought of a sinful nature. I encourage you to repent and make your faith known.

Furthermore, I encouarge you to stay away from Outside the Camp. They are a brood of vipers, a den of asps, a pride of lions, walking about seeking whom they may devour. Do not be pulled into their message of judgment and gnostic salvation. Those who have faith in Christ indeed will be saved and you are no man to judge what is in the hearts of men.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[edb19]

JWs & LDS won't be in heaven if they don't repent of their unbiblical view of Christ.

I recognize that. My point is that there are folks within those sects who know the truth, for whatever reason they haven't broken with those sects yet. Along the same line there are folks who sit in worship services each and every Sunday, maybe right next to us, who are unregenerate. They say all the right things but have not been truly converted.

Only God sees our hearts.

[reformedfan]

i disagree. Is there maybe true born again believers, staying in cults to witness to their cult friends? i doubt it. have you ever heard of anyone like that?

[edb19]

i disagree. Is there maybe true born again believers, staying in cults to witness to their cult friends? i doubt it. have you ever heard of anyone like that?

I don't know - I just think that we may well be surprised at who we meet (or don't meet) in heaven. No reason other than it's just a feeling I have.

[Foundthelight]

This is the Gospel;

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.

Act 2:15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

Act 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

Act 2:17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

Act 2:18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.

Act 2:19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;

Act 2:20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know--

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Act 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

Act 2:25 For David says concerning him, "'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;

Act 2:26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope.

Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.

Act 2:28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'

Act 2:29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Act 2:30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,

Act 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,

Act 2:35 until I make your enemies your footstool.'

Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

Did these three thousand even have a concept of Reformed Vs Arminian?

Act 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

What of Cornelius?

Act 10:30 And Cornelius said, "Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing

Act 10:31 and said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God.

Act 10:32 Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.'

Act 10:33 So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord."

Act 10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,

Act 10:35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

Act 10:36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),

Act 10:37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:

Act 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,

Act 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,

Act 10:41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.

Act 10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Act 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.

Act 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.

Act 10:46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,

Act 10:47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

It looks like Cornelius heard the same Gospel as was preached on the day of Pentecost.

How about these people in Antioch?

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


And, finally;

Act 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

Act 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

To say that we must have a deep understanding of theology to be saved is absurd! What is required is the gift of faith from the Holy Spirit by God's Grace. Whether or not you understand the theological basis for that faith has nothing to do with it.

Peter didn't preach theology, he preached the Gospel. People were and are saved through hearing the Gospel.

To say that one must have a deeper theological understanding in order to have one's salvation recognized by you is the height of impudence and denies the Holy Spirit. You are creating a new law and putting a new yoke around the necks of God's Elect.

Only God knows who is Elect. I am content to leave that up to him.

Rom 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

Rom 14:11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Rom 14:13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.


Nuff said.


(all scripture is taken from the ESV translation. For those who are KJV only, I invite you to compare)

[edb19]

To say that we must have a deep understanding of theology to be saved is absurd! What is required is the gift of faith from the Holy Spirit by God's Grace. Whether or not you understand the theological basis for that faith has nothing to do with it.

Peter didn't preach theology, he preached the Gospel. People were and are saved through hearing the Gospel.

To say that one must have a deeper theological understanding in order to have one's salvation recognized by you is the height of impudence and denies the Holy Spirit. You are creating a new law and putting a new yoke around the necks of God's Elect.

Only God knows who is Elect. I am content to leave that up to him.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. How many of us understood any of the complexities of doctrine when God called us? Rather, at least in my case, I understood that Jesus the Christ went to the cross, suffered God's wrath for my sins, then rose again to sit at the right hand of the Father. That was sufficient - the details of the theology is gravy.

[jonas3]

Sure do.
The original question was this: 3. Do you believe that it is impossible for a regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) to confess a false gospel?

The Scripture verses you quoted below are your “defense” of the idea that a regenerate person can be deceived by a false gospel (i.e. confess a false gospel); however, do these Scriptures verses say or imply anything to that effect? I will reiterate the verses from the Bible version you used in your previous post,

(Ps. 37:23, 24 AV) The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24) Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

This verse is not at all speaking of a regenerate person falling into professing damnable heresies. A regenerate person, who knows the gospel, does not fall into blasphemies against Christ and His gospel. What this verse IS speaking of is the perseverance of the saints. Though one of God's regenerate people falls into temptations and sins, God does not damn him at last (i.e. utterly cast him down), but preserves him unto the end. This is true of God’s people alone, because only God's people have every single sin past, present, and future paid for by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. As it is written, “In whom we [God’s people] have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins” - Col 1:14.

(Ezek. 33:11 AV) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

I agree with that Scripture, but how does that imply that a REGENERATE person can confess a false gospel? It doesn’t. Because of the fallen nature of man (i.e. total depravity), all of mankind is dead and sins, does not seek God, and is without any spiritual understanding, as it is written, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” – 1Cor 2:14. If the Lord turns one of His elect (Jer 31:18) from his wicked ways (i.e. regenerates him), then that man is no longer “wicked” in the eyes of God, for he has been turned onto the Lord, and he will be caused to walk in His statues, and believe His gospel. The elect are wicked before regeneration, but they are not wicked after regeneration having now had the righteousness of Christ imputed to them and given faith in the true gospel.

(2 Pt. 3:9 AV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Again, I’m not sure how this implies that a regenerate person can profess a false gospel, because it doesn’t say or imply anything like that. The Lord is longsuffering to whom? That is, “to us-ward”, and who is that exactly? It is God’s elect. God’s elect, before regeneration, are ignorant of the gospel, but upon regeneration, they are given the knowledge of the gospel, and will thence no longer perish. God is longsuffering to US, not willing that ANY of US should perish.

Furthermore, if the word “ANY” meant everyone without exception, then this passage is saying that God is postponing judgment day because He wants everyone without exception to be saved. However, since everyone without exception will not be saved, then judgment day will be postponed indefinitely. Also, those who say that God is not willing that any without exception should perish believe in an eternally disappointed god who cannot carry out what he wishes. The true and living God does whatsoever He pleases (Psalm 115:3).

There are, of course, many many more. But even one citation is sufficient to defeat your premises. (Also note that I have been graced with the true understanding of Ezek. 33:11 and 2 Pt. 3:9 and would not even begin to apply them to the reprobate. These verses clearly speak of the elect and the elect only. As such, this only reinforces my point.)

Yes, those verses are speaking of the elect. Do you understand the concept between being elect and being regenerated? A person is elect his entire life, but not regenerated his entire life. Before an elect person is regenerated he is, “…by nature the children of wrath, [u]even as others.” – Eph 2:3. All of God’s elect, before regeneration, believe in an idol-god who cannot save, but all of God’s elect, after regeneration, believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. I encourage you to keep this concept in mind when reading Scripture.

I'd certainly like to see the sense in which you mean God requires and how it does not parallel God commands. God requires what he commands and he commands what he requires. It's going to take some serious liguistic acrobatics to get out of this one. If you conceed the point and change it to desires, then I will readily side with you—God does not desire the repentance of all men.

But he certainly commands it. Let me ask you this, does God require our obedience, but not command it? Or vice versa? How do you suppose that?

The original question was this: 6. Do you believe that God does not require His people to have faith in Jesus Christ before they are regenerated?

Are you honestly saying that you do not understand the meaning of the question? Are you trying to defend the view that God DOES make faith in Jesus Christ a requirement BEFORE someone is regenerated? You are correct in stating that what God requires is what God commands. However, question #6 is NOT stating that faith is not commanded of everyone, or required of everyone, for God does command everyone to keep His commandments. The question uses the word “require” to signify “requirement”; and therefore, is attempting to expose whether or not one believes that faith is a prerequisite for regeneration (i.e. does faith precede regeneration, or does regeneration precede faith). Do you really not understand the intent of the question? I will admit that the question could perhaps be worded better this way:

Possible rewording of #6. Do you believe that God does not make faith in Jesus Christ a prerequisite to being regenerated?

Nevertheless, the original wording said the same thing. Also, I clarified for you what was being said in the original question in my last post. I do believe that God commands all men without exception everywhere to keep His commandments. I have made this clear; however, God does NOT make commandment keeping a prerequisite (i.e. a requirement) for salvation. Do you understand the difference between the two concepts? If you do, then please discuss the matter as if you understand the question, as well as my position on the fact that God commands everyone, and the intent behind the question. I don’t mind discussing things, but I don’t want to repeat myself over and over again.


No, I like to be very specific, which you should as well when you're so freely judging the souls of other men. Now tell me this, if a man can make a false confession of the gospel, is it not possible that a man can make a false confession of a false gospel (thereby still believing the true gospel with his heart, but being ignorant of its true nature)? If not, then prove it.

If belief in a false gospel is sin (which it is), then it follows it is no more unforgiveable than any other sin (apart from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, of course). Therefore, those who are deceived by a false gospel sin by way of their profession of it. God can and does forgive belief in a false gospel, and those who are his will be upheld with his hand and will not forever forsake the true Gospel (see above proof texts).

The original question was this: 9. Do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?

Jon, I would take your question very seriously if you truly did not understand what Arminianism is. Furthermore, because I do take this question seriously I responded to what Arminianism is in post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=18603894&postcount=4). If someone really doesn’t know what it means, and they are trying to understand what is being said, then I will most certainly give clarification in order to be more specific. Considering post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=18603894&postcount=4) as well, do you need any further clarification?

In response to your second paragraph, belief in a false gospel is damnable. If a person believes a false gospel they are unregenerate. Again, this does not mean that a person who believes in a false gospel can’t be regenerated; it only means that they are not currently regenerated. Everyone before regeneration is without understanding, as Scripture says, If – our – gospel – be – hid, - it – is – hid – to – them – that – are – lost. (2Cor 4:3).




Note the hypothetical tense in which it was presented: "If this is your version. . . ." I honestly do not think that you accept the full implications of your doctrine, and that is your saving grace, same as many "Arminians."

On the contrary, I DO understand the full implications of the doctrines of grace. In fact, the questions that I put forth are trying to state precisely what the implications of a belief in the true gospel are. That was the whole point of the questions (i.e. showing the implications).

There is no distinction between non-Gospel teaching and Gospel teaching in the Scriptures. The entire Bible is written about Christ. It is the special revelation of the Holy Spirit concerning him. The whole of Scripture is the Gospel. For you to assert that a failure to believe any point of the Gospel truly is to show oneself unregenerate is to say that any failure of doctrine at any point in the Bible is sufficient to reveal onself as unregenerate.

Hold on. That is entirely not true. I NEVER said, nor do I believe (as you believe), that, “The whole of Scripture is the Gospel”. That is not true. The gospel is the good news of God to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. In the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed (Ro 1:17). The gospel is not the, “whole of Scripture”. I am not saying that the gospel is not throughout the whole of Scripture, for it is; however, the gospel is NOT THE whole of Scripture. The gospel is not every verse in the Bible.

Furthermore, I encouarge you to stay away from Outside the Camp. They are a brood of vipers, a den of asps, a pride of lions, walking about seeking whom they may devour. Do not be pulled into their message of judgment and gnostic salvation. Those who have faith in Christ indeed will be saved and you are no man to judge what is in the hearts of men.

Since you believe that no man can judge what is in the hearts of men, then why and how can you judge me? Do I not have, "faith in Christ"?

-jonas

[oworm]

[font=Verdana]Hold on. That is entirely not true. I NEVER said, nor do I believe (as you believe), that, “The whole of Scripture is the Gospel”. That is not true. The gospel is the good news of God to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. In the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed (Ro 1:17). The gospel is not the, “whole of Scripture”. I am not saying that the gospel is not throughout the whole of Scripture, for it is; however, the gospel is NOT THE whole of Scripture. The gospel is not every verse in the Bible.-jonas

Actually the gospel is declared throughout scripture. It is declared as early as Genesis 3:15 and everywhere after that is the historical account of Gods dealing with his people through out history culminating in the incarnation of God Himself.
The whole of scripture has as its ultimate theme the salvation of God.The prophets declare it.the law declares it and the historical narative is the story within which it is declared. A thorough and studious reading and understanding of the whole of scripture unfolds the gospel in all its glorious beauty. To think of it in any other way is to demean and minituarise the whole counsel of Gods dealings with His people.
The gospel opens with the words "In the beggining" Gen 1:1
The gospel finds its embodiment in the words "In the beggining was the word" John 1:1
The gospel is fully and gloriously realised in the words 'Surely I am coming soon' Amen Come Lord Jesus" Rev 21:20

[oworm]

Jonas- I'm discerning that by your general demeanor you have come here in a temper which is somewhat less than the exhortations of :
1 Peter 3:15
2CO 10:1
GAL 5:23
PHP 4:5
COL 3:12
1TI 6:11
1PE 3:15
Far be it from me to judge as I,to my shame; am prone to such an attitude at times myself. I need to be aware that I think I am standing when I know in a heartbeat I can fall. I would therefore encourage you to read the scripture references quoted above and consider them prayerfully on your knees and in humility before Him who weighs our motives and knows our intentions.
If you feel you have the embodiment of all truth as laid out in the gospel and are convinced that you are a teacher of such then I would remind you that true teachers are marked out by their humility and utter dependance on the Lord.
I trust you will consider these words as a brotherly exhortation and that we can continue to edify and exhort each other in a spirit of true humility reflecting the attitude of Him who according to: Php 2:6-8
"being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

but made himself nothing,

taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself

and became obedient to death--

even death on a cross!"

And in whos attitude we are to be a reflection according to PHP 2:5

[frumanchu]

If someone believes in free-will or conditional salvation in any form, then he or she can rightly be called an "Arminian".

I believe in free will in some form. That doesn't mean I'm an Arminian.

Perhaps you could define for us what you mean by "free-will"

[Jon_]

(Re: Ps. 37:23, 24) This verse is not at all speaking of a regenerate person falling into professing damnable heresies. . . .
Would you consider denying Christ a blasphemy? The Scriptures tell us that the apostle Peter did such a thing:
(Mt. 26:74 AV) Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

Peter cursed and swore (took an oath) that he didn't know Jesus Christ. According to your criteria for regeneration, this would be an obvious indication that Peter was unregenerate at this point. That means that during Peter's entire discipleship with Christ, he was unregenerate. When he said,
(John 6:68, 69 AV) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

he was nothing more than a lying, unregenerate God-hater who was had not yet truly accepted Christ.

But this clearly contradicts the Scriptures:
(Luke 22:31, 32, 43 AV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. 34) And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Our Lord foresaw Peter's outright denial of faith in him, but he knew that he was among his sheep and would not be utterly cast down (Ps. 37:23, 24). Note that our Lord says, "that they faith fail not" (v. 32). Jesus is acknowledging that Peter has fail, but that his faith will waiver and that he will stumble. Nevertheless, Jesus reassures him that he has prayed for him that his faith will not utterly fail. He taught that the denial of the gospel or being deceived by a false gospel was sinful, it was not necessarily an indication of the unregenerate status of one's soul.

Jesus knew Peter had faith and that that faith would be denied. But he also knew that his denial was disingenuine, for Peter was truly among his sheep.

(Re: Ezek. 33:11) I agree with that Scripture, but how does that imply that a REGENERATE person can confess a false gospel? It doesn’t. . . .
The application is quite clear: professing faith in a false gospel is simply sin. It is a sin of lying, a sin of being led astray, a sin of disobedience, etc. What it shows is that those who are truly regenerate might stumble in their faith, but the Lord has no pleasure that one of his sheep should apostasize. You are right in noting that those who are regenerate are no longer viewed as wicked by God, and that is precisely the point. Though we may sin in various ways, as grave as it may be, the Lord knows his sheep and they are his.

(Re: 2 Pt. 3:9) Again, I’m not sure how this implies that a regenerate person can profess a false gospel. . . .
This verse is another example that failing in faith or falling from grace are not necessary indicators of the lack of regeneration in a person. Let us know look at another example of the apostle Peter's shortcomings.
(Gal. 2:11, 12, 14, 16, 21 AV) But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12) For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 14) But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I have selected some highlight verses from Paul's account of his public rebuke of Peter. Take note of the texts, Paul accuses Peter of not walking "uprightly according to the truth of the gospel" (v. 14). According to your criteria for regeneration, this is evidence that Peter at this time was unregenerate, as was Barnabas and many others.

These were apostles who were indewlt by the Holy Spirit! And you imply that they were unregenerate souls by way of your advocation! What shall we say to these things but that you are greivously in error.

. . . All of God’s elect, before regeneration, believe in an idol-god who cannot save, but all of God’s elect, after regeneration, believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. I encourage you to keep this concept in mind when reading Scripture.
I encourage you to abandon this false pretense that the regenerate elect can never falter in faith temporarily or can never be deceived by a false gospel. Peter is a perfect of example of how these things can and do happen to God's sheep. For you to level the charge that making a profession of a false claim of the Bible is evidence of the lack of the Holy Spirit is for you to make a claim in direct opposition to the Holy Scripture, for Peter was truly an apostle with the Holy Ghost when he was so deceived in the account told by Paul.


Possible rewording of #6. Do you believe that God does not make faith in Jesus Christ a prerequisite to being regenerated?
Prerequisite and requirement are not the same thing. The problem with your original wording is that it did not draw a correlation between requisite faith and regeneration. You simply asked if God requires us to have faith before regeneration. He absolutely does—of all men. The question was not if this requisite faith is conditional unto regeneration. I would encourage you to be more precise in your language (which I always try to do and have been accused of creating grey area for doing so).

This rewording of your question properly represents the subject and I can now heartily answer "Yes" to it.



In response to your second paragraph, belief in a false gospel is damnable. If a person believes a false gospel they are unregenerate.
See the above argument regarding Peter's deception into the practicing of the law even while indwelt by the Holy Spirit. You could not be more wrong.



On the contrary, I DO understand the full implications of the doctrines of grace. . . .
These implications have been discussed above.

Hold on. That is entirely not true. I NEVER said, nor do I believe (as you believe), that, “The whole of Scripture is the Gospel”. That is not true. . . .
(John 5:39 AV) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

(John 5:46, 47 AV) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47) But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

(John 8:39 AV) They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

(Rom. 4:12, 13 AV) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

(Rom. 4:23, 24 AV) Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24) But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
The whole Bible is written about Christ, which is why it is also referred to as the Word of God (cf. John 1:1 with John 5:39).

You are showing a fundamental lack of understanding when you reject that the whole Bible is part of the Gospel. I attribute this to an unnatural balance between your reading of the New Testament and the Old Testament. No doubt you have not much studied the unity between the two to understand the nature of the covenant that God made with Abraham. No doubt you have not read into typology and how Moses was a type of Christ to come and how Moses's entire ministry was a parallel to Christ's ministry on earth.

No doubt you fail to see the unity of the prophets and the teaching of the New Testament. The New Testament was written that the Old Testament might be fulfilled and fully revealed! The two are interconnected in a glorious unity that only our Lord could conceive! The Gospel is not meant to be understood in the vacuum of the New Testament, but in unity with the Old as well.

How else do we take Psalm 37, vv. 23, 24, to refer to the elect? Why else would Paul write,
(Rom. 9:15 AV) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Is this not a part of the Gospel? Is Paul not applying here God's sovereign choice in election in the Old Testament to election in the New Testament?

I exhort you to study the revelation of God in the Old Testament Scriptures that you might come to a fuller understanding of the unified nature of it with the New Testament. Everywhere you turn, Christ is there. The whole of the books are written to speak of the coming Messiah, who is our Lord Jesus Christ. Their application to our Christian faith is just as binding and just as relevant as every letter of the New Testament, for our Lord says,
(Mt. 5:17-19 AV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Since you believe that no man can judge what is in the hearts of men, then why and how can you judge me? Do I not have, "faith in Christ"?
I do not know. What I do know is that your fruit stinks and appears rotten to the core. If you were a member of my church, I would surely confront you with other brothers and accuse you of being facitous and demand that you stop teaching your false doctrine. But I do not believe, nor do I have any basis to believe, that simply because you are deceived and wrong in your doctrinal teaching that you are unregenerate. You are simply mistaken.

And what judgment have I rendered against you that was not hypothetical or objective in scope? I have but outlined the objective truth of the Word and said, "If this is what you believe, you are wrong." My arguments are based on your arguments, not upon what I presume to be in your heart. I judge what you say, not who you are. This is the right and proper judgment according to the Scriptures.

On that, you are certainly in my prayers. I pray that the Holy Spirit would illuminate you of the errors in what you are presenting and that he would deliver you from your judgmentalism and false doctrine.

And please stay away from Outside the Camp. For the security of your soul.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Foundthelight]

I just thought that I should add something from the Canons of Dort.

Fifth Head of Doctrine - The Perseverance of the Saints

Article 1 - The Regenerate Not Free from Indwelling Sin

Those whom God according to His purpose calls into the fellowship of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and regenerates by His Holy Spirit, He certainly sets free from the dominion and slavery of sin, but not entirely in this life from the flesh and from the body of sin.

Article 2 - Daily Sins of Weakness

Therefore daily sins of weakness spring up and defects cling to even the best works of the saints. These are for them a constant reason to humble themselves before God, to flee to the crucified Christ, to put the flesh to death more and more through the Spirit of prayer and by holy exercises of godliness, and to long for the goal of perfection until at last, delivered from this body of death, they reign with the Lamb of God in heaven.

Article 3 - God Preserves His Own

Because of these remains of indwelling sin and also because of the temptations of the world and of Satan, those who have been converted could not persevere in that grace if left to their own strength. But God is faithful, who mercifully confirms them in the grace once conferred upon them and powerfully preserves them in that grace to the end.

Article 4 - Saints May Fall into Serious Sins

The power of God whereby He confirms and preserves true believers in grace is so great that it cannot be conquered by the flesh, yet the converted are not always so led and moved by God that they cannot in certain particular actions turn aside through their own fault from the guidance of grace and be seduced by and yield to the lusts of the flesh. They must therefore constantly watch and pray that they may not be led into temptation. When they do not watch and pray, they not only can be drawn away by the flesh, the world, and Satan into serious and atrocious sins, but with the righteous permission of God are sometimes actually drawn away. The lamentable fall of David, Peter, and other saints, described in Holy Scripture, demonstrates this.

Article 5 - The Effects of Such Serious Sins

By such gross sins, however, they greatly offend God, incur deadly guilt, grieve the Holy Spirit, suspend the exercise of faith, very grievously wound their consciences, and sometimes for a while lose the sense of God’s favour - until they return to the right way through sincere repentance and God’s fatherly face again shines upon them.

Article 6 - God Will Not Permit His Elect to Be Lost

But God, who is rich in mercy, according to the unchangeable purpose of His election, does not completely withdraw His Holy Spirit from His own even in their deplorable fall. Neither does He permit them to sink so deep that they fall away from the grace of adoption and the state of justification, or commit the sin unto death or the sin against the Holy Spirit and, totally deserted by Him, plunge themselves into eternal ruin.

Article 7 - God Will Again Renew His Elect to Repentance

For in the first place, in their fall, He preserves in them His imperishable seed of regeneration, so that it does not perish and is not cast out. Further, through His Word and Spirit He effectually renews them to repentance. As a result they grieve from the heart with a godly sorrow for the sins they have committed; they seek and obtain through faith with a contrite heart forgiveness in the blood of the Mediator; they again experience the favour of a reconciled God and adore His mercies and faithfulness. And from now on they more diligently work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

[Jon_]

Jonas, my brother, please do not misconstrue my intentions. I no more desire to prove you wrong than I desire myself to be proven wrong. My desire is that the will of God be fulfilled and his scriptural truth be told. If I were making the same arguments as you, I would not like being proven wrong anymore than you. But know that none of this comes from malice or bitterness toward you, but only love. For I love the truth of Christ and love you, and hope and pray that you would come to love the same truth.

I understand and applaud your justified hatred of the gospel of works. Such a false gospel is truly a deception of Satan and I praise God that he has shown you the falsity of it. I also thank and praise God that many of those who are deceived by the "free-will" overtures of such as Arminian theology, do not fully understand the implications of what they profess. With their hearts they believe they are saved by grace alone through faith alone, but with their mouths they say something different. They are truly guilty of a false profession, but I would hestitate to say that such is a direct result of a false confession.

I know many godly men and women that bear abundant fruit that are convinced God is only rightly vindicated by some kind of free will doctrine. They do not understand how God can be the ultimate cause of everything, even of sin, and yet be holy and blameless. They further suppose that sin must be solely the decision of man, else he could not be held responsible for it. True, they are deceived by worldly standards of responsibility, but their faith in Christ as Savior is genuine.

My hope and prayer is for the illumination of the Holy Spirit in your studies. I exhort you, as a brother, to continue examining the Scriptures. My encouragement goes out to you to especially study the Old Testament and learn of our covenant Lord and his dealings with Israel, for such point forward to the New Testament for fulfillment and complete revelation.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[seekingpurity047]

Jonas, I only have one simple question for you. In one sentence, define for me with substantiating and contextual biblical passage(s) that deal with what you call "the true gospel of Jesus Christ".

Thank you,

Randy

[jonas3]

Would you consider denying Christ a blasphemy? The Scriptures tell us that the apostle Peter did such a thing:

(Mt. 26:74 AV) Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

Peter cursed and swore (took an oath) that he didn't know Jesus Christ. According to your criteria for regeneration, this would be an obvious indication that Peter was unregenerate at this point. That means that during Peter's entire discipleship with Christ, he was unregenerate. When he said,

(John 6:68, 69 AV) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

he was nothing more than a lying, unregenerate God-hater who was had not yet truly accepted Christ.

But this clearly contradicts the Scriptures:
(Luke 22:31, 32, 43 AV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. 34) And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Our Lord foresaw Peter's outright denial of faith in him, but he knew that he was among his sheep and would not be utterly cast down (Ps. 37:23, 24). Note that our Lord says, "that they faith fail not" (v. 32). Jesus is acknowledging that Peter has fail, but that his faith will waiver and that he will stumble. Nevertheless, Jesus reassures him that he has prayed for him that his faith will not utterly fail. He taught that the denial of the gospel or being deceived by a false gospel was sinful, it was not necessarily an indication of the unregenerate status of one's soul.

Jesus knew Peter had faith and that that faith would be denied. But he also knew that his denial was disingenuine, for Peter was truly among his sheep.

Jon, you are horribly wrong here. Peter did not confess a false gospel; and therefore, Peter was not unregenerate when he denied that he KNEW Jesus. The passage of Peter’s denial of Christ is not a denial of the gospel; it was a denial that he knew Jesus. This is a big difference, and a sin that a true Christian might very well fall into. A Christian (i.e. a regenerate person) may, through his weaknesses and the fear of man or physical death, deny that he is a Christian, or in Peter’s case, deny that he knew Jesus. Indeed, Peter did sin, but his sin was not the sin of professing a false gospel. A Christian will NEVER commit the sin of professing a false gospel, as it is written, "4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." - Jn 10:4-5. A Christian is like to fall into many sins, and yet not be utterly cast down (i.e. damned at last). To say that Peter denied the gospel by professing a false gospel is contrary to the Spirit of Truth that was in him.

For reference, here is the account of Peter’s denial. Read the contents thereof closely. Peter denies that he knows Jesus. Peter does not confess a false gospel.

"69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. 70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. 71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. 72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. 73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee. 74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. 75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly." - Mat 25:69-75

The application is quite clear: professing faith in a false gospel is simply sin. It is a sin of lying, a sin of being led astray, a sin of disobedience, etc.

Professing a false gospel is not just a sin; it is a damnable heresy (2Pet 2:1). A Christian does not profess DAMNABLE (i.e. damnable) heresies. A Christian is not damned.

This verse is another example that failing in faith or falling from grace are not necessary indicators of the lack of regeneration in a person. Let us know look at another example of the apostle Peter's shortcomings.

(Gal. 2:11, 12, 14, 16, 21 AV) But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12) For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 14) But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I have selected some highlight verses from Paul's account of his public rebuke of Peter. Take note of the texts, Paul accuses Peter of not walking "uprightly according to the truth of the gospel" (v. 14). According to your criteria for regeneration, this is evidence that Peter at this time was unregenerate, as was Barnabas and many others.

These were apostles who were indewlt by the Holy Spirit! And you imply that they were unregenerate souls by way of your advocation! What shall we say to these things but that you are greivously in error.

Peter sinned, as do all Christians, but he did NOT confess a false gospel. Are you saying that Gal 2:11-17 proves that Peter believed that his salvation was conditioned on himself? So are you saying that you DO believe that Peter professed a false gospel? You are the one who is trying to prove from this passage that Peter confessed a false gospel; therefore, YOU are the one that must believe that Peter thought that his salvation was conditioned on his law keeping as this is the context of the passage (Gal 2:16). I believe that Gal 2:11-17 shows Peter sinning, but not confessing a false gospel (i.e. that his salvation was conditioned on his ability to keep the law); and therefore, I believe that Peter was regenerate the whole time. Of course, in your view, Peter was regenerate regardless if he professed a false gospel or not since that doesn’t really matter. If you wish, please read this short article entitled, “What About the Galatians?”, which touches on this issue.

Type: "www" DOT "outsidethecamp" DOT "org/galatians.htm"

I encourage you to abandon this false pretense that the regenerate elect can never falter in faith temporarily or can never be deceived by a false gospel. Peter is a perfect of example of how these things can and do happen to God's sheep. For you to level the charge that making a profession of a false claim of the Bible is evidence of the lack of the Holy Spirit is for you to make a claim in direct opposition to the Holy Scripture, for Peter was truly an apostle with the Holy Ghost when he was so deceived in the account told by Paul.

When did I ever say that Peter was not truly an apostle with the Holy Ghost in Galatians? I never brought it up. You are making this claim against me based on your OWN interpretation of Gal 2:11-17, in which YOU say that it shows how Peter professed a false gospel. On the contrary, that it something I would never say.



Prerequisite and requirement are not the same thing. The problem with your original wording is that it did not draw a correlation between requisite faith and regeneration. You simply asked if God requires us to have faith before regeneration. He absolutely does—of all men. The question was not if this requisite faith is conditional unto regeneration. I would encourage you to be more precise in your language (which I always try to do and have been accused of creating grey area for doing so).

This rewording of your question properly represents the subject and I can now heartily answer "Yes" to it.

I acknowledge that the question in the original wording, although I didn’t see a problem with it at first, could be taken in the wrong manner; and therefore, to be more precise, I will use the rewording above to be the “official” version of question #6. The original post has been changed to reflect the modification to question #6 in order to be more precise.

You are showing a fundamental lack of understanding when you reject that the whole Bible is part of the Gospel.

And you show your total ignorance of what the gospel actually is by suggesting that every single verse in the Bible (i.e. the whole of Scripture) IS the gospel. Also, I NEVER SAID that the gospel is not declared throughout the entire Bible. In fact, I said the exact opposite in my above post, and I quote:

The gospel is not the, “whole of Scripture”. I am not saying that the gospel is not throughout the whole of Scripture, for it is…”

The gospel is God’s promise (i.e. the promise declared throughout in the Old Testament), to save His people (i.e. coming of Messiah) conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone (Isa 53, etc). The New Testament is the fulfillment of the gospel (i.e. the good news of God) declared in the Old Testament. I believe that God’s people in the Old Testament were saved in the exact same manner as they are in the New Testament, which is by the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. In fact, those who say otherwise (i.e. that God’s people were saved by works in the Old Testament) are unregenerate.


-jonas

[jonas3]

Jonas, my brother, please do not misconstrue my intentions. I no more desire to prove you wrong than I desire myself to be proven wrong. My desire is that the will of God be fulfilled and his scriptural truth be told. If I were making the same arguments as you, I would not like being proven wrong anymore than you. But know that none of this comes from malice or bitterness toward you, but only love. For I love the truth of Christ and love you, and hope and pray that you would come to love the same truth.

Jon, you are not my brother in Christ, for me to say that we are brothers and can have fellowship one with another is to make the claim that we believe the same gospel. Unfortunately, this is not the case, because you believe in a totally different gospel and a totally different “christ”. You believe that two gospels are acceptable in the eyes of the Lord. You believe that one can believe that “christ" died for all men without exception, and another can believe that Christ died for His people alone, and both are equal in the eyes of God. Furthermore, you believe that regenerate Christians can and do profess a false gospel, which is accursed.

I know many godly men and women that bear abundant fruit that are convinced God is only rightly vindicated by some kind of free will doctrine.
You judge according to appearance, and sincerity; therefore, you do not judge righteous judgment (Jn 7:24), and you judge wickedly. How do you know that they are, “godly men and women”? What do you base that on?


-jonas

[Fatty]

I believe that God has purposely preordained that anyone, and everyone, anywhere, and everywhere be guaranteed an equal opportunity to hear the Uncompromised Full Gospel Message Of The Cross Of Jesus Christ at some point and time in his, or her life.

I am also very aware that not everyone will readily accept the gift of salvation offered to them, choosing rather to reject the offer of salvation, and turn instead to the judgment of eternal damnation.

I do not believe God has purposely set some aside to be condemned to eternal punishment with absolutely no hope whatsoever of having a choice to accept his gift of salvation at anytime in their life time.

I have spent the past few days and nights wondering about the importance of all this.

I have asked myself, is it so important to be right?

Doctrinally, I believe I am right, BUT I am also willing to admit, that I could be wrong, if I am, so be it.

I do know this much for sure, I KNOW that I am saved, and I know in my heart that I am going to spend eternity in heaven, to me, that is a lot more important than doctrinal issues.

[CoffeeSwirls]

The churches helping survivors from the hurricanes don't seem to be arguing one way or another right now, do they? Difficult times have a way of grounding the church in what truly matters.

Tell me, do you believe that some remote tribe in the jungles of Africa that could be first discovered tomorrow has had an opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ? Natural revelation has the power only to condemn. That is why we are called to go to every tribe, tongue and nation to proclaim the gospel.

[Jon_]

Jonas,

I have offered you patient and compassionate reproof, but you have refused it, even turning my own words back on me as "evidence" that I am unregenerate. For this, I charge you with grievous sin and false doctrine. In the name of Jesus Christ, before these witnesses, repent from your false teaching that you may be converted from your errant, deceived ways.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[seekingpurity047]

Jonas,

I have offered you patient and compassionate reproof, but you have refused it, even turning my own words back on me as "evidence" that I am unregenerate. For this, I charge you with grievous sin and false doctrine. In the name of Jesus Christ, before these witnesses, repent from your false teaching that you may be converted from your errant, deceived ways.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Amen!

[Foundthelight]

Jonas,

I have offered you patient and compassionate reproof, but you have refused it, even turning my own words back on me as "evidence" that I am unregenerate. For this, I charge you with grievous sin and false doctrine. In the name of Jesus Christ, before these witnesses, repent from your false teaching that you may be converted from your errant, deceived ways.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Another Amen

[Fatty]

The churches helping survivors from the hurricanes don't seem to be arguing one way or another right now, do they? Difficult times have a way of grounding the church in what truly matters.

That is a true fact! I only wish that we all, as the body of Christ would consider every moment, of every day as difficult times, and cease arguing over unimportant doctrinal issues altogether, and focus all of our Spiritual, and physical energy on what truly matters most of all: The Lost, and the hurting.


Tell me, do you believe that some remote tribe in the jungles of Africa that could be first discovered tomorrow has had an opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ? Natural revelation has the power only to condemn. That is why we are called to go to every tribe, tongue and nation to proclaim the gospel.

This is what I believe. If someone, male, or female, is called, by God, to go forth as a missionary, to go to the nations of the earth, declaring, without apology, and without compromise, the uncompromised, life changing, full Gospel message of the cross Of Jesus Christ, God, by the Holy Ghost, will empower, and equip that person to fulfill that calling.

And having been fully equipped, and empowered by the Holy Ghost to declare that message of truth, and Love, and Hope, and assurance of an opportunity to receive the gift of Gods saving grace through Jesus Christ, by faith, even the most hetahen, of the heathen can be saved and have the absolute assurance that they can and will spend eternity in heaven.

God is no respector of persons, with men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible, and if believers have faith (Mark 9:23) all things are possible to them that believe!

Our problem is we have been taught, through predestination (Election) that God Desires that only certain ones be saved, and all others be condemnned, but it is Gods desire that ALL be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, he knows that not everyone who hears the message will accept the gift being offered to them, and that these will eventuallu end up in hell for all eternity, BUT God also knows that many will accept the gift of salvation, and he also knows that many will NOT go forth as his witnesses to tell the lost about Jesus, and because of this rebellion, many, who would have accepted the offer of the gift of salvation, will never hear that message, and will die and go to hell forever.

And for that rebellion, many will be held accountable when standing before the great white judgment seat of Christ Jesus......:prayer:

[CoffeeSwirls]

What is the difference from one person who accepts what they year and another who does not? Was one more receptive than the other? Was the one smarter? Did one hear the gospel preached more forcefully than the other? I say that both came in blind and one had their eyes opened by God and the other did not.

[Fatty]

What is the difference from one person who accepts what they hear and another who does not? Was one more receptive than the other? Was the one smarter? Did one hear the gospel preached more forcefully than the other? I say that both came in blind and one had their eyes opened by God and the other did not.

First of all God has already pre-determine that anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere is to be given an equal opportunity to hear the Gospel message.

WE as Christian servants of God, are to be at all times fully attentive to the leadership of the Holy Ghost, through prayer, and hearing the voice of the Holy Ghost guiding us.

He will tell us where to go, who to witness to, and what to say to that individual.

Our only obligation is to obey God, and go, and preach, we are not obligated to have the knowledge of why some accept and others reject the truth, we are not obligated to gauge whether we will go and preach acording to who will reject the offer of the gift of salvation, and who will accept that gift.

Determinig if we will obey Gods commandment to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature is akin to analyzing the outcome before ever doing, and deciding, by that, NOT to go, because our flesh will always tell us NOT to obey God. :)

[CoffeeSwirls]

I agree that we need to obey the word of God. The part that I disagree with is this:

First of all God has already pre-determine that anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere is to be given an equal opportunity to hear the Gospel message.

This is something that has not happened in the past and is not happening in the present. There are people dying without ever hearing the name of Christ. That is why we go!

[Fatty]

I agree that we need to obey the word of God. The part that I disagree with is this:

First of all God has already pre-determine that anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere is to be given an equal opportunity to hear the Gospel message.

I cannot see how you can disagree with the truth as it is stated in the word of God, by God himself no less! (Matthew 28:19-20 Mark 16:15-20)

This is something that has not happened in the past, and is not happening in the present. There are people dying without ever hearing the name of Christ. That is why we go!

How can you say it has not happened in the past?

Of course it has!

It Has, It Is, and It certainly Will continue to happen!

Because, in spite of all the negative incorrect teaching contradictory to the truth of Gods word, there have been, there are, and there will always be those who have been determined, who are determined, and will always be determined to be obedient to the truth of the word of God, who have gone, who are going, and who will go out into their world, wherever that might be, to proclaim, without compromise, and without apology, the uncompromised, life changing, full Gospel message of the cross of Jesus Christ, to anyone and everyone, anywhere, and everywhere!

We go because it is Gods will we go, and it is his commandment, if we love him, we obey him, if we do not obey him, we do not love him, something else God said (John 14) :)

[CoffeeSwirls]

Romans 10
14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

This may come down to what truths need to be believed to be saved. Do you need to know about the penalty placed upon Christ? Do you need to know that he rose again? Are these things that one can determine on their own without being told? I say no.

[Fatty]

Romans 10
14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

This may come down to what truths need to be believed to be saved. Do you need to know about the penalty placed upon Christ? Do you need to know that he rose again? Are these things that one can determine on their own without being told? I say no.

Let's just cut straight to the chase, as they say here in Arkansas.

So what you are saying is; we, as the servants of Jesus Christ, are NOT required by the word of God to go and preach the Gospel to every person everywhere, is that correct?

That is wrong, we are obligated by the commandment of God to witness to the lost.

You're right, no person can believe on their own, BUT they can believe if they are witnessed to!

Faith does come by hearing, and hearing by the word of GOD, BUT the word of God NOW comes through the mouths of obedient servants of God who choose to obey his commandment to go forth and preach, at anytime, without compromise and without apology, the uncompromised, life changing full Gospel message of the cross of Jesus Christ to anyone, and everyone, anywhere, and everywhere. :)

[CoffeeSwirls]

So what you are saying is; we, as the servants of Jesus Christ, are NOT required by the word of God to go and preach the Gospel to every person everywhere, is that correct?

That is wrong, we are obligated by the commandment of God to witness to the lost.

You're right, no person can believe on their own, BUT they can believe if they are witnessed to!

No, what I am saying is that there are unreached people that we need to witness to. There are people who have died without ever hearing. I believe you denied that fact earlier. Not everyone has heard the gospel.

[Fatty]

No, what I am saying is that there are unreached people that we need to witness to. There are people who have died without ever hearing. I believe you denied that fact earlier. Not everyone has heard the gospel.

I honestly don't like the word Unreachable, it borders too closely on unbelief.

I really believe that everyone, everywhere is reachable, the reason they aren't all being reached is people God are calling to go and preach are not willing to obey that call, for some reason or another.

You are right, there are people who have died without ever having the Gospel, and that is tragic, actually much more tragic than any of histories worst tragedies!

These deaths were not just deaths, they are deaths multiplied, and multiplied throughout all of Eternity, by the never ending horrific pains of hells eternal torments.

I don't know for certain if i did deny the fact earlier or not, maybe I did, I apologize though, I do know this, everyone can be reached, if every Christian who is called to go, will go, and I believe every Christian, is called, to some type of reaching ministry, if not in the Pulpit of the Preacher, in the pulpit of the witness....:thumbsup:

[CoffeeSwirls]

Amen. There is no such thing as a unreachable person and there is no such thing as a closed border. I have on mp3 a sermon by John Piper, called Doing Missions When Dying Is Gain (http://www.coffeeswirls.com/audio/Doing%20Missions%20When%20Dying%20Is%20Gain.mp3)

You can listen to it by clicking the link. Odd, now this post is coming out bold and I can't turn it off. OK, just know that I'm not yelling here. :sorry:

I have managed to compress the file down to 11.1 MB without significant loss to the quality of the recording. The sermon itself is 48 minutes, 49 seconds, but the time will pass quickly. This sermon is Piper at his best, and I wish the sermon was much longer. I do ask that you right click on the link in case you want to listen to it again. It is a good enough sermon that you likely will want to listen to it frequently.

A good sermon is like a productive study in the word. It changes you. It changes your outlook on life. It causes you to want to conform to the will of God in all things. This is such a sermon. Please download it and listen to it. Please pray over the points in the sermon, that God would move your heart toward missions, whether you decide to go into the field, want to be bolder in your personal evangelism, or more trusting that God will provide for your needs as you support those missionaries who leave everything behind for the joy of the gospel message, only to look back years later and insist that they never missed a thing.

[Fatty]

I am sorry CoffeeSwirls, I was only able to listen to the first few minutes of the message, then I heard something that shocked me, and grieved my Spirit very deeply.

During the first few moments, I have to admit, I did enjoy what he was saying, but then he got to the part about the missionaries who were killed by some native tribesman somewhere (I don't remember the exact nation).

He said that one of the missionaries sons believed God killed his father, THAT statement of absolute unbelief, a young man, falsely judging, and hatefully condemnning God for the death of his father, caused me, by the unction of the Holy Ghost, to immediately make a definite determination in my heart that I could not, and I certainly would not listen any further to the message this man was preaching.

IF I had been sitting in the sanctuary of the place he was speaking in, I would have immediately gotten up from my seat, and left, even if my departure would have interupted his message.

In The Old Testament God killed men, for their disobedience, and God caused men to kill men, for the same reasons, BUT now in the New covenant of Grace God does not kill anyone, nor does God cause any person to kill any other person.

Jesus (who is God) said The thief (who is satan) comes to steal to kill and to destroy, then he said BUT I came that they (meaning ALL mankind) might have life, and that they might ALL have that life even more abundantly.

It is possible that some of what this man had to say might have been in some ways proper and good, but when a man who professes to Love God, stands in front of a crowd of people and tells those people that God is a vicious hateful violent murderer, anything Good he might have said after that, has no positive profitable Spiritual value of any kind whatsoever, and that is exactly what he said when he said that God killed those missionaries.

It broke my heart, and it should have broken every heart in that place that day.:cry:

Please don't be offended by this, I mean no personal offense to you, but I will not listen to any more of that message.

I know in my heart that there is a great need for faithful, compassionate missionaries to go to the places where the Message of the Gospel has not been preached, and I also am very well aware of the fact that there are not enough people who are willing to take that message where it needs to be taken.

But there is something that grieves my heart about those who have been taking a message to the mission fields.

I said a message because it is not always the Gospel message that has been taken to the mission fields.

Sadly, in many cases, the message that is being taken is denominational doctrinal teaching which is a greater attempt to convert people to denominational doctrinal beliefs rather than correctly laboring to bring the lost to Jesus.

It is not just one specific group who is guilty of this, almost every denomination, or religious group is, in some way, or another, guilty of this tragic act.

My wife and I are about to commit ourselves to a church where the Pastor and his wife have worked in the mission fields for over 30 years, going to many foreign nations to preach, without apology, and without compromise, the uncompromised, life changing, full Gospel message of the Cross Of Jesus Christ.

They now have workers in their home church who take care of business there while they are on the mission fields, IF God is calling ,my woife and I to go to these fields we will go, if not we will remain here and work in whatever capacity the church needs us to work in.

There are mission fields here in the USA as well as there are in foreign nations, there are mission fields in the cities, in the counties, and in every state, we will go where God tells us to go, do whatever God tells us to do, and say anything God tells us to say.

We will go according to Mark chapter 16 verses 15 through 20, and be confident that what Jesus said there is absolute, unchanging eternal Divine truth.

If either my wife, or I, are killed by another person, or group of persons, I am confident that neither of us will ever place the blame for the others death on God, and I am very confident that no person in the church we are about to become members of will do this either, I know this because we, and they truly Love God, and I am certain that God truly loves us enough that he certainly would not murder us.....:)

[CoffeeSwirls]

Oh, but just after the shocking statement comes the support for it, and the Biblical and historical fact that the blood of the saints is how the gospel spreads across the whole world. A year or two later, the children of these missionaries went to the same tribe and the tribe realized that any message worth dying for and worth risking all for us a message they should hear out.

Rev 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

God has a number of people destined to be martyred for their faith. Peter and Paul were both told that they would learn to suffer for the name. All but one of the apostles died a horrific death. The stoning of Stephen ignited a scattering of Christians, who spread the gospel all over the known world. If God is sovereign and if He has decreed that there would be people who would leave their blood to witness to all the Earth the value of Christ, then in a sense you could say that His will played a part in this death.

I want to have a faith that will cause me to rejoice at being found worthy to suffer for the name, just as Peter and John did. I want to know that any thorn in the flesh only makes me lean on God all the more. Christianity as it is taught in most of the churches in North America is an abomination of comfort and psycho/emotional felt needs. Comfort and happiness is the promise placed before those who gather. This does not mirror the Biblical accounts or the historical accounts. When Christianity doesn't cost a person anything at all, there is no witness. When it costs a person everything, the world takes notice.

It's no wonder the world only notices Christianity during an election year in the states. Other than our numbers, we are irrelevant. For all of the means at our disposal, we do not touch the lives of people with any solution they can't find elsewhere.

God showed the Aucas how much Nate Saint would suffer for the name of Christ and that day was blessed when the gospel was next preached to them. I found a page on the Baptist Press about this: http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=21347

The title of this thread is "Are You a Christian." I view a Christian as one who is being conformed to the image of Christ. Some of us will have to be put to death by sinful men for the joy set before us, others will not. This message breaks my heart as well, but the story does not end with missionaries being speared on a beach. It ends with many of those tribesmen in glory right alongside them, all because they modelled the infinate value of the gospel and the love needed to share it with them.

[Fatty]

Oh, but just after the shocking statement comes the support for it, and the Biblical and historical fact that the blood of the saints is how the gospel spreads across the whole world. A year or two later, the children of these missionaries went to the same tribe and the tribe realized that any message worth dying for and worth risking all for us a message they should hear out.

Rev 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

God has a number of people destined to be martyred for their faith. Peter and Paul were both told that they would learn to suffer for the name. All but one of the apostles died a horrific death. The stoning of Stephen ignited a scattering of Christians, who spread the gospel all over the known world. If God is sovereign and if He has decreed that there would be people who would leave their blood to witness to all the Earth the value of Christ, then in a sense you could say that His will played a part in this death.

I want to have a faith that will cause me to rejoice at being found worthy to suffer for the name, just as Peter and John did. I want to know that any thorn in the flesh only makes me lean on God all the more. Christianity as it is taught in most of the churches in North America is an abomination of comfort and psycho/emotional felt needs. Comfort and happiness is the promise placed before those who gather. This does not mirror the Biblical accounts or the historical accounts. When Christianity doesn't cost a person anything at all, there is no witness. When it costs a person everything, the world takes notice.

It's no wonder the world only notices Christianity during an election year in the states. Other than our numbers, we are irrelevant. For all of the means at our disposal, we do not touch the lives of people with any solution they can't find elsewhere.

God showed the Aucas how much Nate Saint would suffer for the name of Christ and that day was blessed when the gospel was next preached to them. I found a page on the Baptist Press about this: http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=21347

The title of this thread is "Are You a Christian." I view a Christian as one who is being conformed to the image of Christ. Some of us will have to be put to death by sinful men for the joy set before us, others will not. This message breaks my heart as well, but the story does not end with missionaries being speared on a beach. It ends with many of those tribesmen in glory right alongside them, all because they modelled the infinate value of the gospel and the love needed to share it with them.

BUT God himself, did NOT murder those missionaries, God had Nothing whatsoever to do with their deaths, satan killed them, blaming God for satans work is the greatest blasphemy there is, in fact, it is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, which is an unpardonable sin, Jesus said it was in Matthew chapter 12.

God is not a murderer, of course he is aware of everything that will happen, but it is NOT his will for his servants (whom he loves) to be violently and viciously murdered......

[Beoga]

BUT God himself, did NOT murder those missionaries, God had Nothing whatsoever to do with their deaths, satan killed them, blaming God for satans work is the greatest blasphemy there is, in fact, it is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, which is an unpardonable sin, Jesus said it was in Matthew chapter 12.

God is not a murderer, of course he is aware of everything that will happen, but it is NOT his will for his servants (whom he loves) to be violently and viciously murdered......

:eek:
Any Scriptural proof to back up the idea that it is Satan that takes the life away from someone and not God?
I would say that attributing the work of God to Satan is another great blasphemy.

[CoffeeSwirls]

Is God sovereign? That is, must everything that happens be something He allows?
Is God omniscient? Does He know everything?

If the answer to both of those questions is "yes" than God allowed this to happen and everything that God allows will be to His ultimate glory. Now, if God both knows and allows all thing that happen, can one assume that God proactively causes such things that will bring Him the greatest glory to happen? A Calvinist will say that yes, He does. That is a large pill for some to swallow, and I took that pill sideways, but I am all the better for it. Because I know that God has prepared the events in my life, and because I trust Him, I can take my next step confidantly. I don't know what tomorrow brings, but I do know that God is shaping me for it today.

[Robbie_James_Francis]

:scratch:

[Behe's Boy]

God had Nothing whatsoever to do with their deaths....

Sounds pretty arminean to me...

[JJB]

Fatty,

You are missing out on a wondeful sermon. Don't shut down because of one difficulty. Persevere through it so you can hear the wonderful message to Go and Make Disciples of All Nations.

I would encourage you to listen to it particularly since you have a heart for the lost. There will be other parts of the sermon you can glean from. I've listened to that sermon more than once. It will encourage you as you seek the Lord to do his will.

Blessings to you,
JJB

[Fatty]

:eek:
Any Scriptural proof to back up the idea that it is Satan that takes the life away from someone and not God?
I would say that attributing the work of God to Satan is another great blasphemy.

John 10:10, proof enough, especially since God himself said it!

God never murders anyone, never has, never will.

God has turned the wicked over to satan for the destruction of their flesh, at the hand of satan many times, but God himself has never once killed, or murdered anyone at anytime, and he never will.

I have never once attributed the work of God to satan, that is as ludicrous, and as false an accusation as anyone could ever make.

[Fatty]

Sounds pretty arminean to me...

What if it is?

I suppose you're one of those who falsely condemn others because they will not accept your beliefs as the one, and only absolutely Biblically correct doctrine to follow after?

I was once a prisoner of that bondage myself, praise God, I have been completely delivered out of that mess.

The word of God is eternal, established forever, in Heaven, and it never will change, Gods truth is everlasting, mans opinion is inadequate, and profitless.

[Fatty]

Is God sovereign? That is, must everything that happens be something He allows?
Is God omniscient? Does He know everything?

If the answer to both of those questions is "yes" than God allowed this to happen and everything that God allows will be to His ultimate glory. Now, if God both knows and allows all thing that happen, can one assume that God proactively causes such things that will bring Him the greatest glory to happen? A Calvinist will say that yes, He does. That is a large pill for some to swallow, and I took that pill sideways, but I am all the better for it. Because I know that God has prepared the events in my life, and because I trust Him, I can take my next step confidantly. I don't know what tomorrow brings, but I do know that God is shaping me for it today.

I am still firmly convinced by the declarations of God in his word, that he is not a murderer, satan is, in fact God does not kill, satan does, and I will not be moved from that position of confident confidence in Gods love for all mankind.

God hates the act of sin, he does not hate the sinner, hatred kills men, God is LOVE, not hate.....:)

[Fatty]

Fatty,

You are missing out on a wondeful sermon. Don't shut down because of one difficulty. Persevere through it so you can hear the wonderful message to Go and Make Disciples of All Nations.

I would encourage you to listen to it particularly since you have a heart for the lost. There will be other parts of the sermon you can glean from. I've listened to that sermon more than once. It will encourage you as you seek the Lord to do his will.

Blessings to you,
JJB

I appreciate you reply. Your replies have always been encouraging to me, and I do appreciate each one.

Let me just say this, and please don't take any offense, I cannot sit and continue to listen to any persons message when that message begins with a blatant condemnation of God.

I was at one time in my life a very vicious and violent hater of God.

I strived every day of m