Sickness, Faith, and Healing

[Greeter]

Greetings All :)

Something got brought up in another post that I would love some input on.  There is a concept that once we are saved we are either immune to sickness or if we do get sick we will be healed by God as promised in the Bible.  The other way at looking at it is that if we get sick and are not healed then we don't have enough faith (at least not in that area).

Previously I had a verse, 2 Corinthians 12:7, I used to disprove this concept but Andrew presented some good evidence in his Was Paul's Thorn Some Sickness thread that I may be inaccurate in my translation of that verse.

Being a Christian Fundamentalist I like to make sure that I am following the Word of God properly, and translating it correctly as well, but have some difficulty with the above concept.  I hope it is inaccurate but admittedly I am not very good at researching this one particular concept as I am a little too close to it.

Here is my problem: there are two men who attend my church who are disabled.  One has a mysterious disease that causes him extreme pain in his head and neck.  The second has a rare disease called Multiple System Atrophy, a crippling disease that results in death often within seven years, along with a second intertwined disease called Chronic Fatigue & Immune Deficiency Syndrome.  Both are saved and would like nothing better to do then serve God by working full time at the church.  Given the chance they would be there six days a week (not seven only in order to observe the sabbath). The first has the gifts to be a pastor while the second has the gifts to be a teacher.  Due to his illness, the first is only able to do a little volunteer work at the church but has a position waiting for him should he become healed.  The second has a gift with children but due to his illness, not only is he bedridden most of the time, but he is advised to stay away from kids because of the immune problems, and like the first has a position awaiting him at the church.

Both men are often told of how they are inspirations to others working at the church and those they encounter because of the great faith they have despite having such problems.

Both men also show their pain when someone mentions that since they haven't been healed that they don't have enough faith.  That concept is probably the only thing that causes them anguish. 

Oddly, both men considers themselves to be blessed as well.  I would like to think that the above two do have great faith and have not been healed so they can be used by the Lord in other ways.

Am I wrong?  (What Bible verses prove or disprove this?)

Should they be told how they are not being good witnesses because they have not been healed?

In his thread Andrew presented another possible line of thought:

Lack of faith? i believe all Christians have faith in certain areas, yet lack faith in other areas. eg one might have strong faith to go out and witness and get souls saved but have little faith to believe that God will supply all his needs, and another Christian, vice versa. does that mean one is better than the other? no.

The above could be used to show that the two men do have faith just not faith in the area of healing.  That would still condemn them by not having the faith they need to be healed though.

I look forward to your insights :)

[Andrew]

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[DaveKerwin]

there is a guy in my church who has cerebral palsy. He is a very bright guy, but he can't speak that well. If you listen to him, you can hear him fine. I remember this one time....

Eric has been told his whole life by other christians that it was God's will that he get healed of cerebral palsy. He believed that. Time and time again, he would get prayed for, laid hands on, the whole nine yards. For years this did not work, and for years Eric tolied over this non-healing. Then he left that church. He came to mine. Recently he declared that he is no longer ill. He said he is now well. The he explained. He said something very similar to this: "I always wanted to be healed. And recently I realized that I was healed. My biggest ailement has been healed by the blood of Jesus Christ, and now I am well." To me, Eric has come to a wonderful conclusion, HE IS HEALED ! Jesus Christ has healed his soul!

[Droobie]

Firstly... it is never God's will that anyone be sick.  Secondly... it is never God's will that anyone be sick.  Need I mention the third point?  To think that God sent His beloved Son Jesus to die for our sins, so that we may be free of the curse of sin and have the blessings of healing available to us, but then to cause people to suffer hurts, terrible dieseases or afflictions would be a horrible thought indeed.  Why would God save us from sickness but at the same time want some of us to be sick?  In the name of Jesus we are healed!

Galatians 3:13, Deuteronomy 28:61

Greeter, those two men of your church you described have healing available to them.  God sees them as perfect human beings with physical bodies free of imperfection.  They just need to name it, believe in it, and when the soul is in line with the spirit, the body will obey and they will be healed.

However, to those people who would be calling them poor witnesses... I would rebuke such words are those of the devil who is seeding doubt and negativity.  A thorn as it was in the case of Paul, sent by the enemy to harrass and breed fear and unbelief in them.

But remember that God works in His own time.  There is various ways of healing.  Natural healing, where the body repairs itself, medicinal healing, where we seek medicines and the help of doctors and miraculous healing.  Faith and healing doesn't mean that you do not consult doctors.  Nor should we expect that the way God will heal will be the miraculous way. 
 
Psalm 103:2-3, James 5:13-15

I would not doubt their faith, but something is holding them back.  Perhaps there is a measure of doubt.  Perhaps there is some unconfessed unforgiveness?  Perhaps there is an inherited or generational sin that has not been dealt with?  Or perhaps it is just not time yet?  Why do some people remain sick?  I don't know.  Simple answer.  But I do know that it is God's will that they be healed.  Believers should be denying the right for sickness to be in their bodies.  Pray for healing, and never give up!

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Droobie
[B]To think that God sent His beloved Son Jesus to die for our sins, so that we may be free of the curse of sin and have the blessings of healing available to us, but then to cause people to suffer hurts, terrible dieseases or afflictions would be a horrible thought indeed.  Why would God save us from sickness but at the same time want some of us to be sick?  In the name of Jesus we are healed!



Are you saying that we cannot be sick after the curse of sin is taken away?

I don't know about you, but I sin every day. Every day since I was saved (five years ago), I have sinned. If God did not take away my ability to sin, why would he take away anything else.

Also, please comment on the situation with Eric, the guy from my church, who is a believer with cerebral palsy. Thanks.

[LouisBooth]

"it is never God's will that anyone be sick. "

I agree, but then Adam sinned and that all changed. According to Jesus it was God's will for this man to be blind since nothing he, nor his parents did made him that way...JOhn 9. Also that verse in ECC is quite telling.

7:14 When times a good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider; God has made the one as well as the other....

[Andrew]

EXACTLY Droobie! AMEN 100%.

BTW are you from Hillsong Church? -- Pastor Brian Houston/ Darlene Z.
Love Hillsongs too! Their playing in my church in Singapore this Fri nite (concert to raise funds for operational costs of a kidney dialysis centre we helped to built -- aim S$1 million -- concert is part of it) ... then they'll be leading worship this Sun. Looking forward to it!

[Droobie]

Hi Dave,

Am I saying that we can never be sick?  Of course not.  While we are living in our mortal bodies we shall ever be open to the effects of sin in the world.  We do not deny it when we are sick, we simply should deny it's right to exist in our bodies.  We need to look at ourselves as God sees us.  Without blemish, without sickness.

Becoming Christian doesn't mean that you will never sin again.  Nor does it mean that you will be affected by sin indirectly.  But what it does mean, is we as adopted children of God have the authority to call on the name of Jesus for healing.  We make a decision to receive this healing and stand on this in faith!

As to the situation you described about Eric?  I don't know why he remained with that condition for so long.  I do know that it was God's will that Eric be whole and healed even before he was born.  Is it God's will that everyone be healed?  YES!  Is everyone healed?  Unfortunately no.  Just as you can ask the question, is it God's will that everyone be saved?  But is everyone on earth saved?

[LouisBooth]

"I do know that it was God's will that Eric be whole and healed even before he was born"

I'd say be whole would mean getting your imperishable body droobie. That's what God's full will is. Sometimes healing of this perishable body is not done and it is the will of God. I think eric might be experienceing that.

[Droobie]

Louis:

I think you might be talking about what God wills and what He permits. They're two different things. Then there's also what we ourselves believe and what we ourselves accept.

Andrew:

Yes, I am very blessed indeed to attend Hillsong Church. Listen out for the new song "Still"

:D

[Andrew]

"Yes, I am very blessed indeed to attend Hillsong Church. Listen out for the new song "Still""

ok will do so on Fri nite. :)

[LouisBooth]

"They're two different things"

I agree, so what do you think of that passage I pointed you to in the book of ECC?

[Droobie]

Hmmm... I think the bottom line would be "I don't know". Why do some people get better, and some don't?  I don't know.  Why are some people miraculously healed from cancer or the like, and others die?  I don't know.  I myself have lost a cousin to leukemia, and I wondered why?  But I have faith that God is in control of all things, be they good or bad. It's a bit confusing when we say that God is good and would never cause anything bad to happen in our lives, yet when bad things do happen, we can't say it's not because of God, which would then imply that He's not in control of everything!

The best way I could explain it is that it is God's will that we be blessed, healthy and prosperous in our lives. That we also be free of pain, suffering etc. However we are living in a world where authority of what goes on in it was handed over to the enemy. The results, effects and reprecussions of sin in the world affect us all.

However, this is all taken into account with God's perfect plan and permissive will. He does not want us to get sick, but there are many ways in which we will get sick. I guarrantee you that some time next year you'll get a runny nose, or a sore throat. But that still doesn't mean that God is not in control over our lives.

[Greeter]

Thank You all for your thoughts.  It has given me much to think about.

With those mentioned previously in mind, I would like to think that faith is not at question for being healed or not.

Hypothetically though, if God does perceive us as having perfect health and it is not his plan for us to be sick, then how would one go about developing the faith necessary to be healed from a major disease?

I have talked to one of the two mentioned previously and he accepts the Bible, in its entirety, as being the Word of God.  We already know he is faithful as he attends services every chance he gets, and if made well would be working at the Church.  His question was if he doesn't have the faith needed to be cured then how would he develope it?

His point is it is easy to be well and say that you can be healed but when you are sick, as he is, you are very weak and feel miserable.  He can say "I am healed", but that hasn't changed his health.  I know he believes in miracles and Gifts of the Holy Spirit as the Gift of Healing is his favorite one.

In watching him he is very optimistic and when he has a good day people have no idea he is having problems.  He smiles a lot and attributes it all to the work of God.  Considering the severity of his disease he is doing much better then others with it, and again, he attributes this to God as well.  It seems to me he has the faith.  How would I go about helping him to make it strong enough for him to be healed?  Time isn't exactly on his side either.  According to doctors the disease has a very good chance of killing him within the next few years.

[Andrew]

quote:" His question was if he doesn't have the faith needed to be cured then how would he develope it?"

Faith comes by hearing the words of Christ. so faith for healing comes by hearing teachings, sermons, scriptures on healing, and depending on the Holy Spirit to give you that revelation - Rhema word for your situation. so he should attend a church that believes in healing and preaches the word on healing too. be surrounded by people of faith for healing. IOW sit under annointed healing ministries.

quote:"He can say "I am healed", but that hasn't changed his health."

anybody can say that. but it must come from the heart mixed with faith.

quote:"I know he believes in miracles and Gifts of the Holy Spirit as the Gift of Healing is his favorite one."

that's an excellent start. at least he's on the right track. but he must not only believe God can, but that God will, and will in his case.

quote: "His point is it is easy to be well and say that you can be healed but when you are sick, as he is, you are very weak and feel miserable."

that's why it's so important to be surrounded by people of faith who believe in healing. becos they will encourage him to believe on, uphold him etc. the last thing he needs is someone coming along to tell him God doesnt want to heal him and that it's God's will for him to remain like that. keep him away from such people and such evil talk.

will PM you greeter....


shalom

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Andrew
[B
quote:"He can say "I am healed", but that hasn't changed his health."

anybody can say that. but it must come from the heart mixed with faith.
[/B]

What is the correct percentage of heart and faith. I am gonna aim for about 40/60. I want another jeep. So do I just believe enough and want it enough in my heart and it will magically appear in my driveway ?

[ZiSunka]

There is a concept that once we are saved we are either immune to sickness or if we do get sick we will be healed by God as promised in the Bible. The other way at looking at it is that if we get sick and are not healed then we don't have enough faith (at least not in that area).

Abraham--dead.
DL Moody--dead.
David Livingstone--dead
Elizabeth Frye--dead
Corrie ten Boom--dead
Mary and Martha--dead
Lazarus--dead
St John--dead

All these people had amazing faith, yet they all got sick died. If it is the will of God to heal EVERYONE, how do you explain that EVERYONE still dies? :scratch:

If it is our own faith that heals us, how do you explain what Jesus did for the man who said, "I believe. Help me even though I don't believe." (Mark 9:24) ? If healing were dependent our our efforts, why would Jesus have healed the son of this man who stated outright that his faith was weak?

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by lambslove


Abraham--dead.
DL Moody--dead.
David Livingstone--dead
Elizabeth Frye--dead
Corrie ten Boom--dead
Mary and Martha--dead
Lazarus--dead
St John--dead

All these people had amazing faith, yet they all got sick died. If it is the will of God to heal EVERYONE, how do you explain that EVERYONE still dies? :scratch:

If it is our own faith that heals us, how do you explain what Jesus did for the man who said, "I believe. Help me even though I don't believe." (Mark 9:24) ? If healing were dependent our our efforts, why would Jesus have healed the son of this man who stated outright that his faith was weak?

good points.

have you prosperity people ever read autobiographies of missionaries? they get sick ALOT. I don't remember which one, but I think it was Bruce Olson who has diarrhea for years because of the food he ate in new guinnea. Mary Slessor got sick the whole time she was a missionary, needing time back in London so she could heal and go back and serve. Sickness comes on us from what we are exposed to. If you hang with some snot nosed preschooler with a cold, then guess what, you get a cold.
You might say we need to claim healing, thats fine and dandy, but consider this. If it is not God's will for us to be sick, and we nurtue a sick child and get sick, are we then disobeying God's will because we knew we would get sick by helping that sick child ?

[Andrew]

"have you prosperity people ever read autobiographies of missionaries?"
for every "sick" Christian there's a "healthy" one. For every unsaved person there's a saved one. R we going by testimonies and what we see or by the Word?

" If you hang with some snot nosed preschooler with a cold, then guess what, you get a cold. "
not to me it doesnt. if you believe you r gonna get it, confess it, then most likely you'll get it. "whosover ever shall say....whatsoever ye believe... you shall have it" "life and death is in the power of the tongue".

"If it is not God's will for us to be sick, and we nurtue a sick child and get sick, are we then disobeying God's will because we knew we would get sick by helping that sick child ?"
John G Lake went to a disease infested slumps to minister to the sick and poor there. His peers thot he was crazy and that he wld certainly succumb to the plague there and die. He didnt even fall sick cos he knew and believe in healing. infact, the doctors were puzzled and did an experiment on him. they put the virus on his skin under a microscope and saw the virus just die under the annointing. He called the the "Spirit of life".

eg2: look at Kenneth E Hagin. He's 85 this month and still runs around when he preaches. Compare him to the Pope, who's younger. You can live according to the promises of God, or live according to the world's standards. the choice is yours and God wont force it.

[ZiSunka]

If it is not God's will for us to be sick, and we nurtue a sick child and get sick, are we then disobeying God's will because we knew we would get sick by helping that sick child ?

Good question! I guess the nurse who gets sick because she helped treat a sick patient must have been outside God's will. She should have stayed home and let the sick person take care of himself?

My mom was a student nurse when she got a needle-stick from a patient with hepatitis. She got hepatitis, too. My sister the nurse got an ugly skin infection from one of her patients. Did that happen because they had weak faith, or because a pathogen invaded their bodies?

Hmm. Don't have to think about that one very hard.

If sickness is caused by weak faith, why do vaccinations work? Do they build up a person's faith somehow?

If by getting a shot you can get more faith in God, then show me where to get that shot!!! :D

[ZiSunka]

eg2: look at Kenneth E Hagin. He's 85 this month and still runs around when he preaches. Compare him to the Pope, who's younger. You can live according to the promises of God, or live according to the world's standards. the choice is yours and God wont force it.

My grandfather was an atheist who cursed God on almost a daily basis. He lived in good health until he died at age 90. Was it faith that kept him alive?

[Andrew]

quote: "My mom was a student nurse when she got a needle-stick from a patient with hepatitis. She got hepatitis, too. My sister the nurse got an ugly skin infection from one of her patients. Did that happen because they had weak faith, or because a pathogen invaded their bodies? "

What did your Mom and sister believe? The world's explanation/science: "YES you'll get sick too!" Have you ever asked them if they believed wholeheartedly in their heart this verse:

Mr 16:18* They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

no, they were probably ignorant of this verse or even if they were aware, they prob think its a figure of speech. so they had no faith in the area of healing and divine health. they may have faith in other areas but not here.

God says "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge" not lack of good intentions. If u pick up a 1000V live wire, you'll still fry, no matter how holy/faithful you r. its called ignorance.

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by lambslove

If sickness is caused by weak faith, why do vaccinations work? Do they build up a person's faith somehow?

If by getting a shot you can get more faith in God, then show me where to get that shot!!! :D

I am totally gonna get some more vaccinations. ;) :D

[Andrew]

"My grandfather was an atheist who cursed God on almost a daily basis. He lived in good health until he died at age 90. Was it faith that kept him alive?"

u c, that's the problem when we start going by testimonies. we can always counter each other's arguments with experiences and testimonies. why not go by the word.

as for your grandpa, wldnt you say God in his grace blessed him with good health, despite his cursings?, so that it is his goodness that leads us to repentance? God send the rain on the just and unjust.

so becos of this testimony, do we then ignore God's Word on healing? Or if I show you another counter testimony, do we then decide to believe? that's standingon shaky ground.

why not see what the Word says.

u guys can laugh all you want at those who believe in healing and divine health. But when push comes to shove, when your doc tells you you've some incurable disease, then you've got nothing to cling to, no hope, if you reject God's Word on healing.

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by Andrew
quote: "My mom was a student nurse when she got a needle-stick from a patient with hepatitis. She got hepatitis, too. My sister the nurse got an ugly skin infection from one of her patients. Did that happen because they had weak faith, or because a pathogen invaded their bodies? "

What did your Mom and sister believe? The world's explanation/science: "YES you'll get sick too!" Have you ever asked them if they believed wholeheartedly in their heart this verse:

Mr 16:18* They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

no, they were probably ignorant of this verse or even if they were aware, they prob think its a figure of speech. so they had no faith in the area of healing and divine health. they may have faith in other areas but not here.

God says "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge" not lack of good intentions. If u pick up a 1000V live wire, you'll still fry, no matter how holy/faithful you r. its called ignorance.

My mom was a big believer in faith healing. Her cousin was healed of terminal brain cancer and her neighbor was healed of end-stage uterine cancer in separate instances, by faith, long after all medical treatments failed. They had both been sent home to die, yet each of them healed and lived by faith. Mom was not in anyway ignorant of anything. Your words are meant to judge my mother and hurt me, and I resent that.

Yet, she not only got hepatitis when exposed to the disease, she later died young from heart faliure. Not because she lacked faith, but because ALL LIVING THINGS DIE.

What planet do you live on where there are living things that never die, but live on and on in bodily form? Not here on earth, where everything that lives eventually dies.

I take it that you personally know people who have been alive for hundreds or thousands of years?

[Andrew]

"I take it that you personally know people who have been alive for hundreds or thousands of years?"

you're totally off track here so I wont bother replying -- no one's talking about staying physically alive forever in this fallen body. i'm talking abt living healthier longer lives.

Perhaps you are now against healing and divine health coz you are bitter abt what happened to your mom/sis.

since you're sensitive abt it, then i wont discuss it any further with you.

LET God be true and every man a liar. I wont ignore God's Word on healing just becos of some -ve testimonies.

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by Andrew
as for your grandpa, wldnt you say God in his grace blessed him with good health, despite his cursings?, so that it is his goodness that leads us to repentance? God send the rain on the just and unjust.

Exactly my point. God blessed him with life, although he had NO faith in God. Our lives don't depend on our faith, but on God's faithfulness. Life and health come to us, not because of anything great thing we do, but because God ordains it so for his own reasons, lest we should boast.

so becos of this testimony, do we then ignore God's Word on healing? Or if I show you another counter testimony, do we then decide to believe? that's standingon shaky ground.

If anyone is standing on shaky gorund, it is you, brother. You are promising something that even God never promised. You are trying to put words in God's mouth and force people to believe false promises of healing for all.

why not see what the Word says.

u guys can laugh all you want at those who believe in healing and divine health. But when push comes to shove, when your doc tells you you've some incurable disease, then you've got nothing to cling to, no hope, if you reject God's Word on healing.

I'm fully aware of what the word says. Nice way to judge again. You're pretty much superior to everyone else, aren't you, at least in your own mind. Have you considered making yourself familiar with the passage of the Bible that says, "By claiming to be wise, they showed themselves to be fools"? You seem a little "puffed up" to me.

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by Andrew
[Perhaps you are now against healing and divine health coz you are bitter abt what happened to your mom/sis.


I am neither bitter nor against healing. My sister is fine and my mother is in heaven. What is there to be bitter against?

And I have witnessed actual healings. How could I be against what I know to be true?

If anything, you are afraid to discuss this any further, not to spare my feelings, but to spare yourself from having to re-examine your beliefs.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Greeter,

How refreshing your questions are. They make the time spent here worth it.

Andrew and Droobie have explained things pretty clearly. But your question of "how do you build your faith?" struck me as something I wanted to have a part in answering.

Andrew is very corrrect in saying "get away from all those who would say you're supposed to be sick, etc."

Please bare with me as I share what I went through and how God has taught me to grow my faith.

A few yrs ago, I was employed full time in a ministry orginization. I had worked there for 8 1/2 yrs.

For about the last 3 or 4 yrs of employment I began to suffer with extreme monthly bleeding. Then, it reached a point where the bleeding never stopped. I could closely relate to the woman with the issue of blood. For those who think that that was impossible, trust me, it's not. I bled continuously, everyday, all month, for months.  And frequent hemmorging.

I was under doctors care, but nothing they did would stop the bleeding. They first put me on birth control, which helped but the bleeding did not stop. Then they increased the dosage of the birth control and that caused other problems. So they put me on some other stuff, which helped but still did not stop it. Then they tried the shots. It still never stopped.

At one point, when they took my blood count the nurse paled and rushed out of the room. When she came back she said she had to call the doctor because the count was so low. The doctor asked her if they were giving me a transfusion, and she said, "no, she walked in here". It was God's grace that I was functioning in that condition.

It was during that time that I began to seek God ardently for my healing. My job did not have adequate medical coverage for me to have surgery. Nor, would I continue to get paid for the time off work. So in my opinion, I had no choice. I had nobody paying my bills but me.

God began to show that my faith needed to be built and I began to seek out how to do that.

I began to listen to Kenneth Copeland. Week after week I would listen and I'd have questions. Much like the questions I've seen on this site. Sometimes I would not understand, and I'd fume over it for the week. When I'd listen the next week what I'd fumed over would be answered.

Then the light came on. I began to understand.

God showed me that my thoughts and my words were what was causing my lack of faith in that area of my life. He showed me that was the same problem with my finances as well.  The reason for my sickness, I believe was a demonic attack.  And I believe that because no medical method would work. (my own opinion)

So, I consciously began to change my words. It caused quite a stir amongst the christians I worked with. When I would share what God was showing me and the little bit of improvement I had seen as a result I was pelted with ridicule. I was told that God gave me a brain for a purpose and He expected me to use wisdom.

I was told all kinds of stories about how this person or that person had stood in faith and died anyway. And along with all the physical strength that was flowing out of my body my spiritual strength began to flow out too.

I fought discouragement. One time, I literally did, run out of the room because of all the words of discouragement coming at me from their mouths. I understand they meant well. But they did not understand that "death and life are in the power of the tongue". And with their tongue they were speaking death to me.

Through some other circumstances I stopped working for that ministry. The Lord led me to the job I'm currently at where I work mainly with non-christians who are kinder than the christians I worked with. What the enemy had intended for evil, God turned to good.

Anyway, to continue, the health situation persisted but GREATLY improved when I got away from all the negative talk. At one point I asked God for a scripture that I could claim for my situation and He gave me Romans 8:2-4 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

That scripture took on a whole different meaning for me after that. When I called the dr the next day after God gave me that scripture, I was telling the nurse what had been happening with my body over the weekend. It had been a particularlly bad weekend. The words out of her mouth stunned me. She said, "well, that's the law". I said, "excuse me?" She said, "oh, I mean that's the way things work as you get older". Hmm, I thought her choice of words quite interesting.

I wish I could say that my faith grew to the point that my body manifested miraculous healing. But it did not. I don't condemn myself in that and neither does God. Satan is the one who comes alongside and condemns us. he wanted me to become discouraged and think that I was condemned by others for not having enough faith. In reality, it was not them condemning it was him. We need to understand that when we start feeling like we're failing. It's not in our strength that we do anything, it's in His strength.

I did see marked improvement in my stanima through this ordeal. In Oct of last year when I went to my doctor, who is a "faith" believer, she said that she felt it was time to have it medically taken care of. There were many cysts covering my uterous and tubes. I was anemic. I was tired. I was tired emotionally and physically. I was tired of the enemy beating me up and interferring with my life.

My current job paid for everything. I continued to get a paychek the whole six weeks I was off work. Before I went into surgery at the end of January, I infomed the devil he had not won. I informed him that as a result of his attack on my body that everyone who touched my body was claimed for the kingdom of God. That meant that every surgion, the nurses, the anestheologist, whoever, was claimed for the kingdom. I won.

Now I know that you're freinds can't just have surgery and make it all go away. But they can change their words and their company. You're friend has made a start by saying he is healed, because he is. I don't know how long each person will have to stand in faith. It may be years. It may be the rest of their lives. But at least they can go, standing in faith. Not allowing the devil to defeat them mentally or physically.

As for my health now . . . it's quite good. I have a lot more energy and am looking forward to more. Like Andrew, compared to the rest of the people around me I very, rarely am sick. And when I am it does not last as long as others around me nor is it as severe. I can't remember the last time I had an upset stomach. I don't get headaches very often either. I use to have migranes so bad that I would find myself heaving into that chair in the bathroom.

So, to try and make this long story short, in order to make your faith grow you have to feed it. Feed it with the Word of God. Feed it by hanging around people who are trying to grow their faith too. Feed it by speaking only what God says. Such as: my body is doing this but the Word of God says, I'm healed. With me, I used my scripture by saying, "body, according to the law of sin and death what is happening right now I have to put up with. But God's Word says I am free from that law. Body, you must line up with the Word of God." You may feel stupid at first (that's the devil lying to you), but keep at it. You'll be amazed at how much stronger you'll begin to feel.

In order to make lack of faith die, we must starve it. Stop feeding on what the world says about your situation. Stop feeding with others who listen to what the world says about your situation and want to tell you all about it. Don't listen to anyone who tells you about their friends, cousins, friend who tried all that and died anyway. You'll be amazed at all the negative horror stories that seem to come out of the woodwork when you start trying to grow in any area, not just faith.

Most of all. . .hold on. Don't give up. No matter what your experiencing in the physical it does not change what God says. That does not mean you deny what's going on physically. You do deny it's right to be there though.  You take care of what you have to take care of. But keep speaking what God says.

Praise and thank God that he's given you His Word as a sword to fight all those principalities in the heavenlies. Rejoice that you are saved and that the enemy is under your feet. Dance before the Lord and imagine yourself dancing on the head of the enemy. It works.

Your joy will increase. And the word says "the joy of The Lord is your strength". It's hard work standing in faith. You need all the strength you can get.

Note to others: as for grandpa living to 90 it was most likely in his genes to live to 120.  And, like Andrew said, God's mercy, giving grandpa more time to repent.

And for vacinations working, again, God's mercy on people.  Man could not have found the vacinations without God giving them the power to do so.

I don't know what the others believe, but I do not believe it's wrong to go to a doctor unless, you know that God has specifically told you not to.  If you wonder if you should see a doctor, do it.

Abraham--dead.
Mary and Martha--dead
Lazarus--dead
St John--dead
Where is it written these people died of disease?  The 1st time Lazarus died it was disease, but where does it say it the 2nd time?  Old age is not disease.

Be blessed,

[Andrew]

"Our lives don't depend on our faith, but on God's faithfulness."

For we walk by faith, not by sight. So throw faith out the window.

"You are promising something that even God never promised."

"With his stripes we were healed", "With long life will I satisfy you and show you my salvation", "Surely he has borne our pains and sicknesses".... it is you who's taking away God's promises and pulling wool over others.

"You're pretty much superior to everyone else, aren't you, at least in your own mind. Have you considered making yourself familiar with the passage of the Bible that says, "By claiming to be wise, they showed themselves to be fools"? You seem a little "puffed up" to me."

you seem a little touchy and sensitive now, so can't have a meaningful discussion when someone's emotional. so goodnight.

[kersejohn]

Regards the matter of healing I have always taken the biblical instruction literally any time I have fallen ill.
I have also always been careful to avoid the words "faith healing" prefering rather to say "devine healing" since the actual healing comes from God, in response to the faith. Notice also the faith required to pray for the healing does not necessarily come from the sick person. It's the one doing the praying. These are my thoughts on the matter anyway!

[ZiSunka]

I'm not being emotional, andrew, you are. I'm not agreeing with you, and my statements make rational sense and that frightens you, so you don't want listen to me anymore. Fear runs away. Faith stands and answers.

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by lambslove
I'm not being emotional, andrew, you are. I'm not agreeing with you, and my statements make rational sense and that frightens you, so you don't want listen to me anymore. Fear runs away. Faith stands and answers.

Lambslove, I agree, Andrew is avoiding questions.


Quaffer, you no longer suffer from bleeding because you went under the knife. Yes, God can use a surgeon, but you were not healed PURELY because you willed it so. If that were the case, you never would have gone to a doctor.

If I am sick, guess what, I am gonna pray that God heals me. You better believe that. I don't like being sick and I doubt anyone does. But I find it absurd to say that it is God's will for ALL people in ALL places in ALL situations to be free from any and all forms of sickness. That is not true, and scripture does NOT back that up.

Andrew, you made the case to not give testimony, and provide scripture instead. Notice how you used the example of the guy who lived to 85. This is not to attack you, just showing that you are not as consistant as you make yourself out to be. And I agree with Lambslove, you have a constant need to be right, and you will dismiss questions if need be in order to avoid being wrong. I have yet to see ANY convincing scripture that shows God's will for all people in all places in all situations to be completely healthy.

If I have a headache, I might chill out and drink some water. You might turn it into some demonic attach. If I get diahrrea, I won't curse the devil and claim healing. I will just take care of business and remember not to eat so much ice cream and hot fudge next time.

Why put all the attention on being sick? Why don't we put our attention on something different like being in sin?

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin


Lambslove, I agree, Andrew is avoiding questions.


Quaffer, you no longer suffer from bleeding because you went under the knife. Yes, God can use a surgeon, but you were not healed PURELY because you willed it so. If that were the case, you never would have gone to a doctor.

If I am sick, guess what, I am gonna pray that God heals me. You better believe that. I don't like being sick and I doubt anyone does. But I find it absurd to say that it is God's will for ALL people in ALL places in ALL situations to be free from any and all forms of sickness. That is not true, and scripture does NOT back that up.

Andrew, you made the case to not give testimony, and provide scripture instead. Notice how you used the example of the guy who lived to 85. This is not to attack you, just showing that you are not as consistant as you make yourself out to be. And I agree with Lambslove, you have a constant need to be right, and you will dismiss questions if need be in order to avoid being wrong. I have yet to see ANY convincing scripture that shows God's will for all people in all places in all situations to be completely healthy.

If I have a headache, I might chill out and drink some water. You might turn it into some demonic attach. If I get diahrrea, I won't curse the devil and claim healing. I will just take care of business and remember not to eat so much ice cream and hot fudge next time.

Why put all the attention on being sick? Why don't we put our attention on something different like being in sin?

 I don't quite understand your statement. I did not will my self to not be healed . . .I was simply tired of fighting. And I honestly admitted that. I guess some people believe that about going to a doctor, but I do not. I don't believe God's Word agrees with that concept either.

If I were sinning, I could put the attention on that, but I am not.

The main problem seems to be that it is very difficult to tell truth to people who already believe they know all the truth. And they take offense when they are told something different from what they've believed all their lives. I believe I referenced that in my testimony. I too took offense. But kept digging at it until I finely understood. That's not a put-down for those who still don't understand.

No one, that I can see is being put down for low faith. We all are low in faith on something. It was Abraham Lincoln who said, "we are all ignorant. . .only on different subjects." By that statement do you believe Abraham Lincoln was putting you down because you don't know anything about being a rocket scientist? If not, why would you think that being told you are low on faith make you think you are being put down? Jesus is not putting you down. And I am not either.

Sickness can come because of a variety of reasons.  Eating too much ice cream can definately be one of them :) .  It can also be because of sin, such as getting sexually transmitted disease due to promiscuity.  Or ulsers due to lack of forgiveness, etc, etc.  Or it can be carelessness or ignorance.  Or it can be just because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Or it can be a demonic attack.  I don't know. 

I also don't understand your last statement. Is that something you really believe about yourself? Or you just believe that's what Andrew says?

Being in agreement with the devil can be as simple as dissagreeing with what God says. It's not something that is unchangable.

I don't want to argue.  I just want to share what God has given me and if someone can benefit from that, I praise Him for it.  If not, that's nothing I can do anything about.

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Quaffer


 [size=2]I don't quite understand your statement. I did not will my self to not be healed . . .I was simply tired of fighting. And I honestly admitted that. I guess some people believe that about going to a doctor, but I do not. I don't believe God's Word agrees with that concept either.

If I were sinning, I could put the attention on that, but I am not.

The main problem seems to be that it is very difficult to tell truth to people who already believe they know all the truth. And they take offense when they are told something different from what they've believed all their lives. I believe I referenced that in my testimony. I too took offense. But kept digging at it until I finely understood. That's not a put-down for those who still don't understand.


Sickness can come because of a variety of reasons.  Eating too much ice cream can definately be one of them :) .  It can also be because of sin, such as getting sexually transmitted disease due to promiscuity.  Or ulsers due to lack of forgiveness, etc, etc.  Or it can be carelessness or ignorance.  Or it can be just because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Or it can be a demonic attack.  I don't know. 

I also don't understand your last statement. Is that something you really believe about yourself? Or you just believe that's what Andrew says?

[size]


I understand you were tired of fighting, hence the visits to the doctor. A person in your same situation may not have come the the conclusion that God will's people healthy only. That was all I was trying to point out.

Right, eating too much ice cream and getting a stomach ache does not mean I am outside of God's will for my health. It means I ate too much ice cream, and thats all it means. I will repeat, a stomach ache from eating too much ice cream only means I ate too much ice cream, nothing else.

I would be an absolute FOOL to believe what Andrew said about me. I don't believe it for a second. My sig is a lame attempt at using sarcasm to make a point.

[ZiSunka]

What a lovely world Quaffer and Andrew live in. It is much easier and more comforting to believe in a one-dimensional God who wills everyone to be perfectly healthy than it is to ask the hard questions about why God allows suffering, and why do some of His most faithful believers get sick, and what role should we believers have in alleviating the suffering of others.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by lambslove
What a lovely world Quaffer and Andrew live in. It is much easier and more comforting to believe in a one-dimensional God who wills everyone to be perfectly healthy than it is to ask the hard questions about why God allows suffering, and why do some of His most faithful believers get sick, and what role should we believers have in alleviating the suffering of others.

I hardly think that my experience conveyed that my world is perfect. In which sentence of my testimony did you see me saying that? I shared from my heart what God brought me through. And what He taught me through it. I believe your attack to be unwarrented.

I do not, for a second, believe it was His will for me to be sick. I've already explained that there are a variety of reasons people get and/or remain sick. I personally don't believe it's because God wants them that way. That does not mean that my world is perfect or that I think any of these people are sinfull.

I have great compassion for those who are sick. I don't know why each one is where they are. But I don't believe God made them that way. It's wonderful that people continue to serve God and bring Him glory even though they are experiencing very difficult things. But it's the person bringing Glory to God, not that persons illness.

My having to run out of church during services because I began hemmoraging brought no Glory to God. It continuously kept me out of church. It kept me from being part of things that I knew God had called me to, for fear that I would have to flee to the bathroom. It interrupted my job, my social life, my sleep, everything.

But my continuing to serve Him with joy (not grumbling and complaining), no matter what I was expericnecing did bring Him glory. My continuing to be faithful in following through with what I was learning about healing brought Him glory. There were some days all I wanted to do was lay in bed and cry. There were some days where I did just cry while my "faith friends" laid hands on me and prayed.  Through the strength of Jesus and their prayers, I survived.  It was an extremely difficult time. And it went on for years.

Good, faithfull people get sick. Some die. That does not make them bad nor does it change God's Word. It's not a sin to be sick. Let me repeat that. IT'S NOT A SIN TO BE SICK!!!!!

All I can do is incourage you to get alone with the Holy Spirit and your Bible and ask Him, that if what I am saying about healing is true, to help you understand. He is faithful. And, if it's me who is wrong, then please, pray for me, that the Holy Spirit will show me. :cry:

Neither Andrew or I, that I could see, said that if you get sick because you were caring for someone else who was sick, was out of God's will. That statement was said facetiously by Dave. And then it got carried a little further by lambslove.

Neither one of us, that I could see, said that living things should never die, even of old age. Again, that was said by lambslove.

Neither of us is trying to force anyone to believe what they do not want to believe. We just want to share what God has shown us. If you don't want it, you don't have to believe it. We will still fellowship together in heaven.

I'm sorry that you have taken offense.  That was never my intent.  It was a difficult thing for me to share that testimony because I knew that some would take offense. But God directed me to share it.

My healing may have come via the knife of a surgeon, but it was none the less, God, who did the healing.  God gave the surgeon his life.  God gave the surgeon the skill.  God gave the surgeon the knowledge.  And then God, directed my steps to that surgeons office and that surgeon (who was not a christian), whether he knows it or not, has been exposed to God, because he came in contact with me.  That's divine healing!  :bow:

In His grip,

Barbara

[LouisBooth]

"But I don't believe God made them that way"

Hmm... Ecc 7:14 ;)


"IT'S NOT A SIN TO BE SICK!!!!! "

So why can't christ have been sick then ;) Just a side comment.


"Neither of us is trying to force anyone to believe what they do not want to believe. We just want to share what God has shown us. If you don't want it, you don't have to believe it. We will still fellowship together in heaven. "

I agree, but I don't think it was God that showed you that. I think you took something he did show you..he does bring healing..and you took it too far by adding in the word ALWAYS.

I think this converstation with God happens a lot in the world...

" God heal me" God: No. for my strenght is made perfect in your weakness.

What's more of a testiment. A person stricken with cancer still praising the Lord DESPITE the physical, or a healthy man praising the Lord. In human standards I'd say the former. Like the 3 wacky kids in the OT said, "even if he doesn't, I'll still praise him."

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"But I don't believe God made them that way"

Hmm... Ecc 7:14 ;)


"IT'S NOT A SIN TO BE SICK!!!!! "

So why can't christ have been sick then ;) Just a side comment.


"Neither of us is trying to force anyone to believe what they do not want to believe. We just want to share what God has shown us. If you don't want it, you don't have to believe it. We will still fellowship together in heaven. "

I agree, but I don't think it was God that showed you that. I think you took something he did show you..he does bring healing..and you took it too far by adding in the word ALWAYS.

I think this converstation with God happens a lot in the world...

" God heal me" God: No. for my strenght is made perfect in your weakness.

What's more of a testiment. A person stricken with cancer still praising the Lord DESPITE the physical, or a healthy man praising the Lord. In human standards I'd say the former. Like the 3 wacky kids in the OT said, "even if he doesn't, I'll still praise him."

Like I said, we can at least come to agreement on one thing.  Pray and ask God to show you if you are wrong or show me if I am wrong.  Are you able to do that Louis? 

I don't want to argue with anyone on this.  I know, without a doubt, God's voice.  And I know what He's shown me and already proven to me.  But I'm open to His correction.  How about you?

Also, please point out what part of my testimony I used the word "always".  I've searched for it and can't find it. 

The scripture correctly quoted is (KJV) "And He said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: (notice the word NO does not appear) for my strength is made perfect in weakness. "

So, my weakness is made perfect in His strength.  :angel:

Louis, I believe you twist my words and have me saying things I know in my heart I am not saying.  I'm sorry if I am an irritation to you.  Please, instead of cutting at me, pray for me.  It will be better for both of us.

Thankyou,

Barbara

[LouisBooth]

"Pray and ask God to show you if you are wrong or show me if I am wrong. Are you able to do that Louis? "

did that the first day this issue came up Quaff. He hasn't told me any different everyday after that when I prayed about it. :)


"How about you?"

very much so, been turned around on a great many things by him.

"The scripture correctly quoted is (KJV) "And He said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: (notice the word NO does not appear) for my strength is made perfect in weakness. " "

the word trinity isn't mentioned in the bible either, its clearly implied though, just like that no. :)

"I'm sorry if I am an irritation to you. Please, instead of cutting at me, pray for me. It will be better for both of us."

You don't irriated me at all quaf. I also don't "cut" at you. I don't twist your words, I say exactly what you tell me. I'm not into taking people out of context, nor putting words in their mouths. Ask around ;) Most of my friends know me for that exactly. A teacher I had said that to me expressly also. We were discussing in class and she sais something in relation to me and I piped up, nooooo I didn't say that, I said this.

[DaveKerwin]

Barbara, I sense a positive attitude from you, thanks for your last few posts, the were more fair than I was expecting. You are right, we will have to spend eternity together, might as well get along in the mean time. There is something weird about that feeling you get when you feel non-truth is being told. I am sure we are all coming from different areas in a similar fashion.

[Andrew]

"Right, eating too much ice cream and getting a stomach ache does not mean I am outside of God's will for my health."

So gluttony - and ending up sick -- is living in the will of God?

Running away from questions?

*LOL* why not, since those who ask the questions are constantly deaf to the truth, sarcastic, twist my words, get emotional abt personal experiences and cant think straight after that. Its a waste of time talking to folks like that.

[Droobie]

4 kinds of healing are available to us:

1.  We are created beings with a body that has wonderful natural defense mechanisms.  When we get a cut, over time, our bodies will heal.  When we get an infection, or virus, given time, the body will naturally heal itself.

2.  Remedial healing; where we take medicines, go to see doctors, surgery.  This is still healing and should not be neglected if we continue to be sick.

3. Blessings as a Christian.  There is a spiritual covering over our lives as children of God.  Isaiah 58:8, James 5:15.  Have you ever had a feeling not to eat something, even though it looks fine?  Please don't get be wrong, I'm not trying to be spooky, but we have a spiritual covering over our lives that protects us.

4.  Miraculous healing.  This is the most exciting form of healing where the body is made whole instantaneously.  Sight restored, overnight/immediate recovery etc.

We have been redeemed from the curse of sin.  Jesus has done this for us so we no longer have to accept the curses of sin, and at the same time accept the blessings of being a child of God.  Look in Deuteronomy chaper 28 which outlines this.  Sickness and disease have come into the world as a result of the curse of sin.  Has not Jesus released us of this curse? 

Problems with our marriage, relationships, employment, sickness, disease and poverty no longer have a place in our lives.  Know that there are blessings available and that we as Christians are entitled to receive them.  Before we were saved, we had no choice over this.

God is not going to curse us when He went to so much trouble of dying to redeem us from the curse.  We are free from our curses.  We are heirs to the blessings through our faith in Christ Jesus.

Now you may point out.. what about this person?  Or what about that person?  Are you going to base your faith on what happens to others?  Do you base your salvation on whether people get saved or not?  Or by the Word of God?  Likewise, are you basing your healing on who gets healed or not, or on what it says in the Word?

We pray in faith that healing will come to us and our loved ones.  And continue to pray, trusting in God that we will be healed.  Again, I say, if you asked 'why' are some healed faster than others, or why do some people die, or why do some people who live sinful lives grow old and die naturally.  I would answer "I don't know!"  That's something that you will never be able to find out until you're with Him in heaven.

I do know that as a Christian, I am a child of God and that He would never 'want' me to be sick or cursed.  That my life is in His hands and everything that goes on in this world is according to His will and purpose.

[DaveKerwin]

why do women still have birth pains

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Andrew
"Right, eating too much ice cream and getting a stomach ache does not mean I am outside of God's will for my health."

So gluttony - and ending up sick -- is living in the will of God?

Running away from questions?

*LOL* why not, since those who ask the questions are constantly deaf to the truth, sarcastic, twist my words, get emotional abt personal experiences and cant think straight after that. Its a waste of time talking to folks like that.

Ok, so I had a second serving of ice cream after eating nearly nothing all day, thats not gluttony. It was not excess because I didn't have my fill ;) . My body just happens to be sentive to that kind of food sometimes.

And on the occasion that I eat ice cream and my body doesn't like it (for whatever reason) and I get sick, its nothing more than eating ice cream too fast or having it at the wrong time. That's all there is to it. I am not outside the will of God because I had some mint chocolate chip.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Barbara, I sense a positive attitude from you, thanks for your last few posts, the were more fair than I was expecting. You are right, we will have to spend eternity together, might as well get along in the mean time. There is something weird about that feeling you get when you feel non-truth is being told. I am sure we are all coming from different areas in a similar fashion.

Dave,

Thank you for your kind words.  I know that feeling your talking about.  I've felt it many times.   :(

I also know that I cannot trust my feelings.  I must trust what I see God saying in His Word.  Even when my feelings don't follow with it. 

It's like God's Word says we have to love those who treat us wrongly, but what I want to do is pull them through the computer and slap em' till they see straight.  :angel:

None of us yet knows everything about God that there is to know.  Some of us know alot about bible prophesy but know nothing about Bible history.  Some of us know alot about healing but know nothing about witnessing.  Some of us know alot about all the above but have no love for their fellow brothers and sisters.  We can all learn some bit of truth from each other.   :hug:

God is teaching each of us different things at different times.  God has already taught me alot on healing but the current subject we're working on is integrity. I'm sure you understand what I mean.   

We don't have to accept everything we hear from other people.  Be we do have to accept everything God says.  God expects us to check it out with His Word.   

We can't go only by our feelings, we can't go only by our experiences, and we can't go only by our circumstances and our understanding of those circumstances.  

We can't look at just one scripture and say "well, since that scripture fits my circumstance then I'll believe it.  And, since that one seems to say something different I'll just ignore it. 

I have tried to convey a balanced view of healing and prosperity.  In sharing my testimony, I told of how God taught it to me.  He may teach it differently to someone else.  But that's how He taught it to me. 

I believe that God's Word promises that He will meet all of our needs.  And then someone responds by saying "so you think you can just ask God for a porsche and poof there's one in your driveway". I did'nt say anything about a porsche.  :scratch:

There was a song years ago sung by Doris Day called (I don't know the correct spelling) "cay serra' serra" or "Whatever will be will be"  and that seems to be the mentality of alot of Christians today, but that just is not a true statement.  

We may not always have a say in what comes into our lives but we do have a say in what stays in our life.  And ex pastor use to say, "you can't stop the birds from flying over your head but you can stop them from building a nest in your hair."  

One of the ten commandments says "honor your father and mother that your days may be long."  That means that we have a promise of long life if we honor our parents.  Is that promise a lie because someone you know, who honored their parents (as far as you know) died at a young age? 

What about Prov 3:1 "My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: for length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee".  Is that not true because someone you know kept God's commandments (as far as you know) and they died young?

What about all of Ps 91.   Is that scripture not true because evil does come to your house? Or because you do have fear?  Or because you die at a young age?  

One major thing I have learned in my 40 + years of walking with God is that all scripture works together.  We cannot receive one word from God as true and not receive the other.  If God's word says something is supposed to be and my life does not reflect that then it's not God's word that's the problem.  It's me. 

I have to go to God on my own and ask God why that scripture does not seem to be true in my life.  According to verse 1 of Ps 91 it would be because your not dwelling in that secret place of the Most High.  I did not say it. Through David, God did.  

I believe I've given plenty of scriptures backing up what I believe. I may be wrong but I don't believe so.  If I am, it does not matter.  God is still God and I erred on the side of trusting too much.  Although I don't believe it's possible to trust God too much.   

Just because we don't like what we hear does not mean it's a non-truth.  Sometimes it's the Spirit but most of the time, it's our flesh rearing up in rebellion. 

Prov 18:13 says "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is a folly and shame unto him.

You must seek it out.  You must ask questions.  You must listen.  And then ask more questions.  If it still does not settle then set it aside for a later date.  God may be prepping you.

According to some of the answers I get back it is clear that the person has not listened all the way through.  They listened part of the way but not all the way.

For the times that I've lashed out in frustration, I ask forgiveness. We must treat each other better than that. 

In His Grip,

Barbara

:bow:

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Droobie
4 kinds of healing are available to us:

1.  We are created beings with a body that has wonderful natural defense mechanisms.  When we get a cut, over time, our bodies will heal.  When we get an infection, or virus, given time, the body will naturally heal itself.

2.  Remedial healing; where we take medicines, go to see doctors, surgery.  This is still healing and should not be neglected if we continue to be sick.

3. Blessings as a Christian.  There is a spiritual covering over our lives as children of God.  Isaiah 58:8, James 5:15.  Have you ever had a feeling not to eat something, even though it looks fine?  Please don't get be wrong, I'm not trying to be spooky, but we have a spiritual covering over our lives that protects us.

4.  Miraculous healing.  This is the most exciting form of healing where the body is made whole instantaneously.  Sight restored, overnight/immediate recovery etc.

We have been redeemed from the curse of sin.  Jesus has done this for us so we no longer have to accept the curses of sin, and at the same time accept the blessings of being a child of God.  Look in Deuteronomy chaper 28 which outlines this.  Sickness and disease have come into the world as a result of the curse of sin.  Has not Jesus released us of this curse? 

Problems with our marriage, relationships, employment, sickness, disease and poverty no longer have a place in our lives.  Know that there are blessings available and that we as Christians are entitled to receive them.  Before we were saved, we had no choice over this.

God is not going to curse us when He went to so much trouble of dying to redeem us from the curse.  We are free from our curses.  We are heirs to the blessings through our faith in Christ Jesus.

Now you may point out.. what about this person?  Or what about that person?  Are you going to base your faith on what happens to others?  Do you base your salvation on whether people get saved or not?  Or by the Word of God?  Likewise, are you basing your healing on who gets healed or not, or on what it says in the Word?

We pray in faith that healing will come to us and our loved ones.  And continue to pray, trusting in God that we will be healed.  Again, I say, if you asked 'why' are some healed faster than others, or why do some people die, or why do some people who live sinful lives grow old and die naturally.  I would answer "I don't know!"  That's something that you will never be able to find out until you're with Him in heaven.

I do know that as a Christian, I am a child of God and that He would never 'want' me to be sick or cursed.  That my life is in His hands and everything that goes on in this world is according to His will and purpose.

Very well said Droobie.  Thank you.  :pink:

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
why do women still have birth pains

Good question Dave. It seems that if bad health was a part of the fall, and we are forgiven by Christ, that bad health would no longer be an issue. But here is the problem. If that were true, what about in Genesis 3 where women are given birth pains as part of the fall? Wouldn't this also mean that christian women should have pain free births? I see an inconsistancy here. Every christian woman, whether she prays for a pain free birth or not, experiences pain. Explain how this works. How could God let such a thing happen? Maybe because he does not will all people in all places under all circumstances, to be healthy all the time.

[LouisBooth]

It was a great question Dave!

"We have been redeemed from the curse of sin. "

Droobie...This is something quiet different. The curse of sin is seperation from God. Sickness is not a curse of sin. It was something God put here as a result of our actions in the garden. Very very different thing. This is why I constanly refer to John 9 where Christ himself shows that being sick is not something assosiated with sin at all, its a result of being in a fallen world. Thus that is why the claim healing thing doesn't always work and is not biblical. i would also like to know why snakes aren't walking around on legs if we "claim it".

[Andrew]

"Originally posted by DaveKerwin
why do women still have birth pains "

The promises of God dont fall automatically on the Christian. It's like asking: "Why are there still unsaved people? when Christ already died to save the world", "Why are there Christians not living the abundant life? when Jesus said he'd give us abundant life", "Why are there Christians who have less than basic needs of life? when he's El Shaddai", "Why are some Christians better witnesses than others? when Jesus gave the great commission to all Christians"

"Sickness is not a curse of sin."

Disobedience = Sin
Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:...............

Result of this sinning is cursings of sickness among many other things
22* The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
27* The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
28* The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

notice Verse 61 says EVERY sickness. Verse 61 is a curse of EVERY sickness. So how in the world can sickness ever be a blessing from God?

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Andrew
"Originally posted by DaveKerwin
why do women still have birth pains "

The promises of God dont fall automatically on the Christian. It's like asking: "Why are there still unsaved people? when Christ already died to save the world", "Why are there Christians not living the abundant life? when Jesus said he'd give us abundant life", "Why are there Christians who have less than basic needs of life? when he's El Shaddai", "Why are some Christians better witnesses than others? when Jesus gave the great commission to all Christians"


Andrew, this does not explain why women still have birth pains. Your answer would be fine if some women had birth pains, and other women did not. Because there are some saved, some not. There are some good witnesses, some not. But all women have birth pains. This makes your reply not valid. Please be VERY direct in your next answer.

[Droobie]

Hang on... what has birthing pains have to do with sickness & healing? You hit your thumb with a hammer; you feel pain. You go into labour and try to pass a small baby through your groin area; you feel pain. Let's stick more to the topic of sickness, faith & healing. Sin & pain would be another topic I believe.

We are not sick as punishments for our sin. At the same time we should never accept that when we are sick, that's just the way it is, and there's nothing we can do about it. That God would not care whether we are sick or not. We pray for healing with an expectancy that it will come. We pray for blessings in our lives, over our relationships, our employment, our lives in general with an expectancy of the goodness of God.

When we claim healing we are merely agreeing to what is written in the Word that we shall be blessed. Jesus came and among his many miracles was those of healing. He also directed us to go forth, lay hands and heal. But this doesn't mean that the miraculous form of healing will always come. Pray for healing. Take medicine. See doctors. But never stop praying or loose faith that God wants us to be healed. Just as we pray for our friends or family for their salvation. It may not be instantaneous that they make a descision. It may take years, but we pray with an expectation that they will come to know Christ.

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Droobie
Hang on... what has birthing pains have to do with sickness & healing? You hit your thumb with a hammer; you feel pain. You go into labour and try to pass a small baby through your groin area; you feel pain. Let's stick more to the topic of sickness, faith & healing. Sin & pain would be another topic I believe.

We are not sick as punishments for our sin. At the same time we should never accept that when we are sick, that's just the way it is, and there's nothing we can do about it. That God would not care whether we are sick or not. We pray for healing with an expectancy that it will come. We pray for blessings in our lives, over our relationships, our employment, our lives in general with an expectancy of the goodness of God.

When we claim healing we are merely agreeing to what is written in the Word that we shall be blessed. Jesus came and among his many miracles was those of healing. He also directed us to go forth, lay hands and heal. But this doesn't mean that the miraculous form of healing will always come. Pray for healing. Take medicine. See doctors. But never stop praying or loose faith that God wants us to be healed. Just as we pray for our friends or family for their salvation. It may not be instantaneous that they make a descision. It may take years, but we pray with an expectation that they will come to know Christ.

The argument stated is that because we are saved, we no longer are under the law of sin, so our bodies are not sticken with bad health. But part of the law of sin is that women have birthing pains. IF the curse of bad health was taken away upon salvation, they why was birthing pains not taken away also? That was the point of the question. If Andrew can claim that we should no longer have bad health because the law of sin no longer reigns in our body, then I should also be able to claim in the same manor that christian women should not feel pain while giving birth, for the same justification that Andrew gave. But christian women do feel birth pains, so there is a problem here. My point is to show the inconsistancy of his claim, which I believe to be on topic. Because if his claims are inconsistant, then they have everything to do with this topic.

I believe that when we are sick, we can ask God to heal us. I also believe that in some situations he will heal, and others he will not. I do not believe that in ALL situations God will heal us. If I ask for healing, and I do not get it, then I trust that God did not provide it for a specific purpose. I think of Paul's thorn (regardless of what it was) remembering that God gave him some form of affliction for a specific purpose, so he can do the same with me. I understand that we can ask for things in the name of Christ and it will be given to us, but not the things that are outside of his will. I believe it is possible for God to will us SOME kind of unhealth, for SOME period of time, for HIS divine purpose. I see a problem with biblical interpretation of people who do not agree with this last statement.

Scripture does not tell us DIRECTLY to "claim" healing when we are sick. The bible directly tells us to preach the gospel to all nations. We can both agree on that. But because you are going on what you THINK the Bible says, I cannot believe what you say. I will be the first to admit that this health weath topic has made me think, a lot. It has also driven me to scripture. These are awesome things to happen! But from thinking a lot, praying alot, reading a lot, I have not come to a convincing conclusion that it is God's will for all people in all situations to have great health. I am unable to see that. I have studied the character of God, and God incarnate, and I don't see the prosperity gospel lining up with God. I can see WHY you believe what you do, but I cannot see the truth in it. You may think me blinded, but I do not think that is the case.

I hope I am making sense, please tell me if I am not. I am not necessarily against christians who teach the prosperity thing, blessings to them as long as the GOSPEL is being preached! I just worry about people being lead astray, which is happening very much today.

[Andrew]

quote: "Andrew, this does not explain why women still have birth pains. Your answer would be fine if some women had birth pains, and other women did not. Because there are some saved, some not. There are some good witnesses, some not. But all women have birth pains. This makes your reply not valid. Please be VERY direct in your next answer."

Why dont you ask the women around you who have given birth and ask them if there are those who did not experience birth pains? Why dont you read the book Supernatural Childbirth by Jackie Mize, call her and her hubby up and ask her and the other women who testify in her book if they experienced birth pains after claiming the promises of God, besides conceiving when doctors told them it was impossible. There are women in my church who have given birth without pain, but then of course, you'd say I'm lying.

quote:"But part of the law of sin is that women have birthing pains. IF the curse of bad health was taken away upon salvation, they why was birthing pains not taken away also?"

In the first place Dave, can you see from the Word for yourself that healing is in the atonement? Can you see in the Word that every curse of the law has been removed by Jesus becoming a curse for us? See for yourself what the Word says FIRST, then look at the 'experiences' from that point of view.

take for example a simple curse of the law from Deu 28, which says you'll marry someone but the someone will end up in someone else's bed -- adultery -- that's one curse.

Now Ga 3:13 says Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, which wld logically include this one.

Now it's obvious there are Christian men and women who still suffer this curse right? ie their spouses are sleeping around.

So back to my point, these same Christians must know that 1.) Adultery is a curse not God's blessing. 2) They've been redeemed from it says Ga 3:13. So they 'claim' this promise of the Bible and confess it with faith over their situation, taking authority over the devil who has robbed them of their right to a good marriage becos of their ignorance (my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge). that in essence is what the faith movt is about.

and it does not just apply to marriage, but health, career, finances, relationships, etc.

[Andrew]

quote:"Scripture does not tell us DIRECTLY to "claim" healing when we are sick. The bible directly tells us to preach the gospel to all nations."

And healing is part of the Gospel becos healing is in the atonement.

Mt 10:8* Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Lu 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
Lu 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Mr 16:18* They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

do you find Jesus qualifying here:"Heal some of the sick...preach to some only,

[SnuP]

My wife read the book that Andrew refered to before our first child was born.  She was believing God for a painless child birth, but found out that there was some thing abnormal about her body that would prevent this the first time around.  She went full term with a heart shaped uterus (not fully developed), this was very unusual.  The docter said that most women with this condition either lose the baby or it is born premature.  You could tell from looking at her belly that there really was not enough room for the baby.  My wife began to believe that the baby would be healthy and come on the right date, that it would also develope to the right weight.  My wife had a quick delivery, 8 hours, and required only a local anastetic.  This is also very unusual for a first pregnancy and for one with her condition.  The baby was born 8 pounds, 9 ounces.  The water sack around the baby was unusually thick and the doctor had to break it.  It is believed that it was this way to help insure that the baby didn't come early.  If you take all of these unusual circumstances, you will see a definite miracule.  There are too many coincidences here to not see that God was at work.

My wife is now 6 months pregnant with our second child.  We fully expect a wonderful delivery without any pain this time, and even faster than before.

In Christ

SnuP

[Andrew]

AMEN Snup!!!

Lord I'm in agreement with Snup and his wify for a painless childbirth and a healthy bouncing bundle of joy! In Jesus name, AMEN!

ps: in my church we call it "poom poom pop!" that fast, that easy *LOL*

[SnuP]

I knew there was a goood reason to put you on my buddy list.  Much thanks, Andrew, we both appriciate your support.

I'll post what happens when it happens.

Thanks

IN Christ

SnuP

[Andrew]

My pleasure SNup ;)



----------------------------------------
Why dont we discuss the fact that healing is in the redemption/atonement here.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21422

[didaskalos]

"Why dont we discuss the fact that healing is in the redemption/atonement here."

What a wonderful topic of discussion!

There is so much misunderstanding concerning this blessing of God. So many are in bondage and need freedom not only from the sickness that plagues the body, but also from the guilt and sorrow that burdens the soul as a result of this curse. Oh that the people of God would come to see the richness of His mercy and the fullness of the redemption that has been provided for us at every level and in every area of our lives. Such is the glorious work that God has completed in Christ Jesus!

Psa 107:31
(31)  Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness,
and for his wonderful works to the children of men!


Blessings to you, and I look forward to the sharing and teaching you have to offer!

In Him

Didaskalos

 

[SUNSTONE]

When Jesus died for us, we were given his power to heal. That doesn't have anything to do with pain when you bring a child into this earth.
The bible talks about the end times and how the earth will have birth pains.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't pray for the pain to go away during child birth, but its not something that is wrong like a broken arm or a cold.

 

By his strips we are...pain free :P

[didaskalos]

My wife is now 6 months pregnant with our second child.  We fully expect a wonderful delivery without any pain this time, and even faster than before.


Praise God! A painless and safe childbirth be unto this dear sister. Let it amaze the people. A blessed child born who will walk with the Lord!

Amen!

Didaskalos

[sn00zles]

I know my friend's mum said that she didn't experience birth pains.

Just my humble point of view, but I don't see why some of you are getting personal and often sarcastic with your messages/replies. We all worship and serve the same God.

Romans 14:1 "Welcome those who are weak in faith, but do not argue with them about their personal opinions"


14:5 "Some people think that a certain day is more important than other days, while others think that all days are the same. WE EACH SHOULD MAKE UP OUR OWN MINDS"


14:6 "Those who think highly of a certain day do so in honour of the Lord; those who will eat anything do so in honour of the Lord..."

All I'm saying is that some of these messages seemed to be ridiculing or putting down a certain belief or worse, the person writing about it.

Whatever we believe, we all live and are guided by the Spirit of God, and His will is done in our individual lives accordingly

[sn00zles]

Personally, I agree with Quaffer and Andrew in their views on healing - in that basically we can be healed by faith.  The bible reiterates that so many times. 

However, not all of us have that faith.  I know that I don't have the measure of faith required because I am still weak.  If our faith is a gift from God (and it is), then it just shows that it is God's plan that not all of us be healed whilst we are still in the flesh, because not all of us will have the faith needed immediately, or indeed ever in our lifetime.  (which I believe is what lambslove and Dave have been saying...)     

I think we can only keep praying for God to help us build our faith, and trust that in all God does, He does out of love for us. 

 

 

 

 

[SnuP]

Faith comes by hearing, hearing what, hearing God.

No one had more faith than Jesus.  But Jesus said that He would do nothing untill the Father showed it Him.  He would not even believe for something unless the Father lead Him to believe.

So which is the Correct order.

We believe God (for something) / God speak's / It comes to pass

God speak's / We believe God (for what He spoke) / It comes to pass

The example that Jesus gave is that of the second.  Let our doctrine follow Christ's example.

Faith comes by hearing, hearing what, hearing God.  Hearing comes by what, by the written word.  So let us all learn to hear.

[sola fide]

Not trying to be a pessimist(excuse the spelling), but if women are redeemed from birth pains...does that mean that men are redeemed from working the ground which was cursed because of sin? (Gen. 3:17-19)
Are we redeemed from physical death? For the wages of sin is death right?
If we are completely healed then why must we die?

Soli Deo gloria!

[SnuP]

The answer is Yes and Yes.

Working for God carries no burdon, we are told by Paul to do everything for the glory of God. In this way we will always be filled with joy no matter what the task.

In Christ we do not die, rather we are translated. To die physically in the presence of God will be a glorious thing. There you are dieing and God becomes more real then you have ever imagined. How can we who believe ever look at death in the body as a bad thing.

For the wages of sin is eternal death.

[sola fide]

Funny, I never read the word eternal in Romans 6:23. I have no question that Christ's redemtion is perfect and complete. But we still must face certain consequences of the law. Life is not "perfect", even in Christ, by temporal standards. The sweet by and by will be perfect...but even as a well known charismatic, John Osteen said...we don't live in the sweet by and by, we live in the nasty now and now. Some redemptive aspects are eternal, not temporal, and we must live with that fact in all faith and humility. Sickness, death, etc. can be a tool used by God in His eternal purpose.

Working for God carries no burden?

Galatians 6:2,5-
"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ...
For every man shall bear his own burden."

Soli Deo gloria!

[SnuP]

Originally posted by sola fide
Funny, I never read the word eternal in Romans 6:23. I have no question that Christ's redemtion is perfect and complete. But we still must face certain consequences of the law. Life is not "perfect", even in Christ, by temporal standards. The sweet by and by will be perfect...but even as a well known charismatic, John Osteen said...we don't live in the sweet by and by, we live in the nasty now and now. Some redemptive aspects are eternal, not temporal, and we must live with that fact in all faith and humility. Sickness, death, etc. can be a tool used by God in His eternal purpose.

Working for God carries no burden?

Galatians 6:2,5-
"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ...
For every man shall bear his own burden."

Soli Deo gloria! It should be clearly understood that Christ saves us from Hell which is the consiquence of sin. 

The bible does tell us that we are seated in heavenly places with Christ.  So I must ask you is this your reality?

I did not say that there was no burdens left to bear, only that doing God's work was not a burdon.  God desires that we only do His work.  But He knows that there are things that way us down, things that we are not ready to let go of.  But He wants to bear those for us.  But if we cannot let them go, Paul says that we should help each other so that none are left behind.

[Andrew]

quote "Not trying to be a pessimist(excuse the spelling), but if women are redeemed from birth pains...does that mean that men are redeemed from working the ground which was cursed because of sin? (Gen. 3:17-19)"

there's a difference. man was created to work. God told Adam to tend the garden. rule over it, etc. you cant do that just sitting down in front of a TV.

the curse was work with sweat -- hard labour -- maximum input, minimum results. so yes, there are Christians who work without the stress and tears, they enjoy their work, put in the required efforts and reap maximum results.

also, our bodies were not redeemed at the cross. only our spirit. but our bodies will be redeemed at the rapture/resurrection -- that's when we will get new glorified bodies and live in a body forever. a body that is not fallen.

what we are redeemed from is sickness, so that we may live long productive and satsifying lives for God. God does say:"With long life I will satisfy you and show you my salvation".

QUOTE: "Sickness, death, etc. can be a tool used by God in His eternal purpose."

that's only true if you mean: When the devil throws lemons at you, God turns the situation around and makes lemonade for you. But if you mean God himself throws the lemons at you, then it contradicts scripture because it is the devil who comes to steal kill and destroy, not God.

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by SnuP
My wife read the book that Andrew refered to before our first child was born.  She was believing God for a painless child birth, but found out that there was some thing abnormal about her body that would prevent this the first time around.  She went full term with a heart shaped uterus (not fully developed), this was very unusual.  The docter said that most women with this condition either lose the baby or it is born premature.  You could tell from looking at her belly that there really was not enough room for the baby.  My wife began to believe that the baby would be healthy and come on the right date, that it would also develope to the right weight.  My wife had a quick delivery, 8 hours, and required only a local anastetic.  This is also very unusual for a first pregnancy and for one with her condition.  The baby was born 8 pounds, 9 ounces.  The water sack around the baby was unusually thick and the doctor had to break it.  It is believed that it was this way to help insure that the baby didn't come early.  If you take all of these unusual circumstances, you will see a definite miracule.  There are too many coincidences here to not see that God was at work.

My wife is now 6 months pregnant with our second child.  We fully expect a wonderful delivery without any pain this time, and even faster than before.

In Christ

SnuP

A "quick" 8 hour delivery with only minimal pain killers was an easy pain free birth? Why were local anesthetics needed if it was pain free? My mother birthed me with no pain killers, she is into the natural child birth thing. I don't doubt for a second that God was at work. Congrats on a healthy child, but it came through pain.

Andrew mentioned women who gave pain free births, call me a skeptic, but I don't go for that. Do I believe it is possible? Yes I do. Do I think women give birth without pain? No. And whats with this christian book phenomenon? Just because a christian wrote it does not mean it lines up with the truths of God. Don't get me started on the prayer of Jabez !

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by sn00zles

Just my humble point of view, but I don't see why some of you are getting personal and often sarcastic with your messages/replies. We all worship and serve the same God.

Romans 14:1 "Welcome those who are weak in faith, but do not argue with them about their personal opinions"



"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. "

Well, who knows friend. Spend more time with christians of different denominations and you might find yourself in the same situation.

We are better off in agreement, but I find this type of discussion to be valuable. I have stated in a different post that I give blessings to people I disagree with theologically, as long as they preach Christ.

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by sn00zles
Personally, I agree with Quaffer and Andrew in their views on healing - in that basically we can be healed by faith


If all Andrew and Quaffer said is that God can heal us, and that we should have faith, then I would agree completely. The only thing I don't line up with is the notion that it is God's will for ALL people to have good health, no matter what. I believe God can have purpose in my sickness. Andrew would rebuke me for saying this, add some devil talk, and whatnot. But I believe that God's work is not limited if I have a cold. I also believe that God can leave someone with a sickness for his own purpose. Key word : CAN.

[Loser For Jesus]

Originally posted by sn00zles
We all worship and serve the same God.

No, we don't.

Gal 1:6-7  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- (7) which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

It's quite clear from the intensity of disagreement on this topic, and the others concerned with the whole "Faith Movement," that we don't all worship and serve the same God.

Let's not try to be all nice and fluffy about this, in a vain effort to maintain harmony. Let's not compromise the truth for the sake of a false unity.

Either those who are arguing for the "Word of Faith" style camp are correct, or they're not. If they are correct, then I - since I can only speak for myself on this point - am certainly not worshipping and serving the same God as they are. If they are not correct then, equally, they are not serving the same God as I am.

Can you imagine Elijah standing on Mount Carmel and saying, "Now, come on everyone, let's all just calm down. After all, we all worship the same God."

Jude 1:11-13  Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion. (12) These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. (13) They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

love in Christ,

Malcolm

[Loser For Jesus]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
And whats with this christian book phenomenon? Just because a christian wrote it does not mean it lines up with the truths of God. Don't get me started on the prayer of Jabez !

Indeed, "The Prayer of Jabez" book wasn't written by a Christian in the first place. Call me judgmental - and I'm sure someone will - but that should really be a "no brainer."

love in Christ,

Malcolm

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hey All,

Here's some testimony's regarding health and prosperity.

TESTIMONY #1

The  happened to me just this last week.  My little dog Wigglesworth (Wiggles for short) is 15 yrs old and for the last, I'd says 5 yrs I have been praying in regards to the removal of a large cyst on his body.  It started out small but grew to about 2" in length and about 1" wide and 1" high. 

I have not been able to afford to take him to a vet for it's removal but prayed for him routinely.  Everytime I would run my hand over it I would say, "Lord, I thank you for a healthy dog.  I thank you that when it's his time to go it will be because he's old, not sick.  I thank you that You give me the authority to curse this cyst and I thank You that it cannot stay on him and do him any harm.  Well, like I said, he's 15 and still quite bouncy.  Well, the other day I was running my hand over the area and the cyst is gone.  All that was there was the flabby skin where it had been.  :clap:

TESTIMONY #2

I've been praying for a few years for a VCR and this Tues night, a friend gave me one.  :clap:

TESTIMONY #3

This happend to some pastor friends of mine, Barry & Judy.

They are beginning to prepare for their oldest daughter to go to college.  They were asked by a traveling evangelist to head up his campmeeting this year and during that campmeeting they felt impressed by God to give toward the offering and name their "seed" as seed toward sending their daughter to college.  They are not rich but the Lord has always met their needs in miraculous was.  ALWAYS!

Well, a few weeks ago Barry's grandmother died and Barry was asked to do the funeral.  Barry and Judy both sang at the funeral as well. 

Afterwords the man who was driving the herse came up and introduced himself. He's in his 80's and retired and drives the herse at the funeral home just to keep busy. He told them that at his church he also played the piano and sang but heard something in their music that he was missing. They explained to him "the anointing" and he agreed that "yes" that was what he was missing.

He then went on to tell them he was having a birthday party the next week and would they come. They agreed.

Then Judy mentioned that her father, also retired, use to work part time at a funeral home. This man asked who her dad was and Judy showed him a picture. The man knew her dad. He also noticed a picure of Kimberly, their daughter. He asked about her.

He said, well, ya know I've been saving up all the money I've made from driving a herse for quite a few years now and I was just thinking that it's getting rather big and was thinking about where I might put it. He said, I believe that would be a good thing and there is enough to send her all the way through college and I'd like to give it to you.   :clap:

But that's not all  :D

He noticed a picture of their other daughter Jennifer. He said, I'm up in years but still healthy and don't plan to go anytime soon, but before I go I'd like to also make sure to give you enough to send her too.

He said I'm not sure if there's enough in the fund to cover both but the local Masons will cover the rest.

Judy very quickly told him that she did not think the Masons would want to support the children of 2 Penticostal preachers.

He straightened himself up and said, "they will when you're the president of it."

Prov 13:22 set in motion: "the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just." YES!   :clap:

[Loser For Jesus]

Yes, God is certainly answering your prayers. Just like he really does answer the prayers of all those who dilligently pray the "prayer of Jabez." I'm not being sarcastic here. I genuinely do believe that God is answering those prayers. Rather than rejoicing in it, though, I find it tragic.

2 Th 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
2 Th 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

love in Christ,
Malcolm

[SnuP]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
A "quick" 8 hour delivery with only minimal pain killers was an easy pain free birth? Why were local anesthetics needed if it was pain free? My mother birthed me with no pain killers, she is into the natural child birth thing. I don't doubt for a second that God was at work. Congrats on a healthy child, but it came through pain.

Andrew mentioned women who gave pain free births, call me a skeptic, but I don't go for that. Do I believe it is possible? Yes I do. Do I think women give birth without pain? No. And whats with this christian book phenomenon? Just because a christian wrote it does not mean it lines up with the truths of God. Don't get me started on the prayer of Jabez !

The pain that my wife experieced was less then the average woman experinces.  Given my wifes condition at the time, her pain should have been considerably greater.  It is a simple conclusion to say that she only experienced pain because she had a condition she did not know about.  In her words, there was fear there.  This is the real cause that pain was present.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Why dont you read the book Supernatural Childbirth by Jackie Mize, call her and her hubby up and ask her and the other women who testify in her book if they experienced birth pains after claiming the promises of God, besides conceiving when doctors told them it was impossible. There are women in my church who have given birth without pain, but then of course, you'd say I'm lying.
"

When you can look at a snake and say, "hey grow legs and walk around" and it happens, let me know :) Its part of the same curse.

[LouisBooth]

"The pain that my wife experieced was less then the average woman experinces. "

Oh? so she experienced pain, uh oh..not faithful enough right? ;)

Sorry, I'm not going to beat myself up when I experience pain or sickness, its the result of living in a fallen world, something that's not fixable.

Good post LFC.

[SnuP]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Why dont you read the book Supernatural Childbirth by Jackie Mize, call her and her hubby up and ask her and the other women who testify in her book if they experienced birth pains after claiming the promises of God, besides conceiving when doctors told them it was impossible. There are women in my church who have given birth without pain, but then of course, you'd say I'm lying.
"

When you can look at a snake and say, "hey grow legs and walk around" and it happens, let me know :) Its part of the same curse.

God has redeem us, not the snake.

[SnuP]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"The pain that my wife experieced was less then the average woman experinces. "

Oh? so she experienced pain, uh oh..not faithful enough right? ;)

Sorry, I'm not going to beat myself up when I experience pain or sickness, its the result of living in a fallen world, something that's not fixable.

Good post LFC.

That right it is a result of a fallen world.  But she could not pertake of the full blessing because of fear.

You can sit in a pit and suffer from snake bites all you want, but God is offering a rope.  You just have to believe that whats on the overside of that rope is better than the pit that you are in.  If you believe than you can take hold of the rope and the blessings that are attacked to it.  And guess what, God is holding the rope.

[LouisBooth]

"God has redeem us, not the snake."

nope, not from those curses..you still have to sweat and work don't you? I still see thorns..so again, I disagree, we are in the same predicamint as the snake. When you can look at the snake and tell him to walk and he does, come get me then ;)

"You can sit in a pit and suffer from snake bites all you want, but God is offering a rope. "

Nope, sometimes he says, stay in the "pit" and show people I'm strong in your weakness.

[SnuP]

Luke 9:
3He told them: “Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic. 4Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5If people do not