Are Trinitarians Christians? [Archive]

franklin

22nd August 2002, 03:41 PM

Howdy partners, Well, I guess this is my assigned cell since I am a defender of the faith and I have this bad habit of exposing false teachings and doctrines that have absolutely nothing to do with scripture, so let me throw in my 2 quarters for what it might be worth. As a former strong supporter of the doctrine of the three in one god, I really do not like the idea of being considered a non believer or a non Christian if I do not support this doctrine or any of the man made creeds. At the same time I would not consider someone who supports the trinity to be a non Christian either.  I would just say they are like I was before I had my paridigm shift in beliefs. They just need to dig deeper into the scriptures to see what is really and truely being taught and subordinate all the opinions of men to second place. Creeds are not inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The scripture is the inspired word of God and if the doctrine of the trinity is so clear in the scriptures then why did not even Christ Himself or the Apostles teach it?  I challenge all you trinitarians to show the scriptural proof and not what you have been traditionally taught. It has been customary in the thinking of most Christians to resort to saying since the trinity is a complete mystery and we cannot even begin to understand it throughly, we should just accept as fact that the Bible teaches it and just believe it by faith! Never did any preacher of the Gospel, recorded in the Bible, resort to saying, "This is a complete mystery, you cannot begin to understand it". Instead, we read of them appealing to people through reason and drawing logical conclusions from Scripture.  Gee, is that a concept or what? 

ZoneChaos

22nd August 2002, 04:53 PM

The doctrine is not based upon a creed, but upon the verses that the creed assebmles.  To study the Doctrine or the Trinity, you would find the same verses that the creed used in the first place.

As a Christian, I studied, learned, and accepted the Trinity, without even knowing about the Creed.  It did nothing to shape my views. 

PrinceJeff

22nd August 2002, 08:08 PM

1 John 5:7-8
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Other versions say "agree as one". Why couldn't all three agree as one if not equal?

\o/

22nd August 2002, 09:21 PM

 :eek:

Job_38

22nd August 2002, 10:39 PM

The Trinity is a basic doctrine of orthodox Christianity. Yet the word "Trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible. Is the doctrine of the Trinity really biblical?
The doctrine of the Trinity says that there is one God who exists eternally as three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I can assure you that the elements of this doctrine are all taken directly from the Bible.
The first plank of the Trinitarian platform is that there is only one God. The Bible could not be more explicit on this point, which it states explicitly about two dozen times. In Isaiah 44:8 God says that even He does not know of any other gods!
Jesus often spoke of God as His Father, and the apostles frequently spoke of "God the Father." But the New Testament also insists that Jesus is God. For example, Thomas acknowledged Jesus as, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), and both Peter and Paul spoke of Jesus as "our God and Savior" (2 Pet. 1:1; [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]. 2:13). Yet the New Testament also makes the distinction between the Father and the Son as two very different persons. In fact they tell us that they love one another, speak to each other, and seek to glorify each other (e.g., John 17: 1-26).
The Old Testament refers often to the Holy Spirit as God at work in the world, without distinction from the Father. But Jesus in John 14 to 16 explained that this Holy Spirit would be sent by the Father at Christ's request. The Holy Spirit would teach and guide the disciples, not speaking on His own initiative, but speaking on Christ's behalf and glorifying Christ. Thus, the Holy Spirit is revealed by Christ to be a third person distinct from the Father and distinct from the Son.
In short, the doctrine of the Trinity is completely and totally biblical, and it is essential that all Christians give assent to this doctrine.
 

Hojo Hominygrits

23rd August 2002, 01:32 AM

Water can be vapor, solid, and liquid in form and still be water. Why can't God be the same? The basic nature of the elements that make up our universe I think are a reflection of the character of their Creator.

Ok, no more deep thoughts by Hojo. It makes my brain hurt Mr. Gumby. :(

Gunny

23rd August 2002, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by My Higher Self
This is an interesting topic. I know a guy who is part of a christian religion that borders on being occult. They take the bible very literally and he has emphasised many times that contemporary christians focus WAY too much on christ. He says they are worshipping Jesus more so than god as a whole....

Possibly, Oneness Pentecostalism?

GySgt James

edpobre

23rd August 2002, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by ZoneChaos
You don't have enough choices in your poll.. Not all Christians are Trinitarians, and not all Trinitarians are Christians.

Trinitarians can be Christians, if that is what you are looking for.

ZoneChaos,

Are you saying that  those who do NOT believe the Nicene Creed can be Christians too! Then why was I told NOT to post in the "Christians Only" forum because I don't believe the Nicene Creed? Is there a  NON-Trinitarian who believes ther Nicene Creed?

Ed

LewisWildermuth

23rd August 2002, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by Hojo Hominygrits
Water can be vapor, solid, and liquid in form and still be water. Why can't God be the same? The basic nature of the elements that make up our universe I think are a reflection of the character of their Creator.

Ok, no more deep thoughts by Hojo. It makes my brain hurt Mr. Gumby. :(

There are actualy four states of mater to my knowlege, solid, liquid, gasseous, and plasma.

You forgot the plasma state... If your analogy holds true what is the fourth state of God?

LewisWildermuth

23rd August 2002, 06:04 AM

On to the topic of the thread, can trinitarians and non-trinitarians both be Christians? Sure since the only definition for being a Christian in the Bible is belief in Jesus as savior.

Phoenix

23rd August 2002, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by PrinceJeff
1 John 5:7-8
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Other versions say "agree as one". Why couldn't all three agree as one if not equal?

Hiya PrinceJeff,

I'm a strong supporter of a Trinity doctrine and believer that Jesus is God. If you do a little research on that verse you'll find that it only appears in a few later manuscripts. It's suspected by most scholars that the verse was added to the passage in error.

Regards

edpobre

23rd August 2002, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Hojo Hominygrits
Water can be vapor, solid, and liquid in form and still be water. Why can't God be the same? The basic nature of the elements that make up our universe I think are a reflection of the character of their Creator.

Ok, no more deep thoughts by Hojo. It makes my brain hurt Mr. Gumby. :(

Hojo,

A man is walking a Labrador, a Terrier and a Pitbull. How many dogs do you see - one dog or three dogs?

Isn't this how you see God?

Ed

edpobre

23rd August 2002, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
On to the topic of the thread, can trinitarians and non-trinitarians both be Christians? Sure since the only definition for being a Christian in the Bible is belief in Jesus as savior.

Hi Lewis!

Please direct us to the verse in the Bible which defines a Christian as one who believes in Jesus as savior. I bet you won't find any.

On the otrher hand, the Bible teaches that the DISCIPLES of Christ were first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch (Acts 11:26). Thus, DISCIPLES of Christ are CHRISTIANS. The question is: Who is a DISCIPLE of Christ?

Again, the Bible teaches that a DISCIPLE of Christ is one who BELIEVES in Jesusw and ABIDES in HIS word (John 8:31).

Do Trinitarians BELIEVE in Jesus and ABIDE in HIS word? How about NON-Trinitarians?

Ed

 

eldermike

23rd August 2002, 07:28 AM

2TI 1:8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11 And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

franklin

23rd August 2002, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by edpobre
Are you saying that  those who do NOT believe the Nicene Creed can be Christians too! Then why was I told NOT to post in the "Christians Only" forum because I don't believe the Nicene Creed? Is there a  NON-Trinitarian who believes ther Nicene Creed? 

The Nicene Creed: (in part)

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

The Scripture:

Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

Isaiah 44:6, "...beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 45:5, "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:"

Isaiah 46:9, "...I am God, and there is none else;"

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

1 Corinthians 8:6, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

The simple picture the Scriptures present to us of Jesus Christ is that:
He was born a babe (Luke 2:7).
He "increased in wisdom" (Luke 2:52).
He "learned obedience by the things that he suffered" (Hebrews 5:8).
He was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15).
He "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7).

Try to honestly harmonize that with the Trinitarian idea of omnipotent and omniscient co-equality and co-eternity. It just does not fit and cannot fit. To make it fit we must break down all the meaning of language. That is what Trinitarians have done. Why should we try to make it fit? The Trinity is not taught in the scripture. Why then not just accept the scriptural account and forget about the "Trinity"?

edpobre

23rd August 2002, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by franklin

The Nicene Creed: (in part)

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

The Scripture:

Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

Isaiah 44:6, "...beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 45:5, "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:"

Isaiah 46:9, "...I am God, and there is none else;"

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

1 Corinthians 8:6, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

The simple picture the Scriptures present to us of Jesus Christ is that:
He was born a babe (Luke 2:7).
He "increased in wisdom" (Luke 2:52).
He "learned obedience by the things that he suffered" (Hebrews 5:8).
He was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15).
He "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7).

Try to honestly harmonize that with the Trinitarian idea of omnipotent and omniscient co-equality and co-eternity. It just does not fit and cannot fit. To make it fit we must break down all the meaning of language. That is what Trinitarians have done. Why should we try to make it fit? The Trinity is not taught in the scripture. Why then not just accept the scriptural account and forget about the "Trinity"?

Hi Franklin!

Add to this John 8:40 KJV which says: "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN who has told you the TRUTH which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this."

There is simply NO WAY that the Nicene Creed is telling the TRUTH about Jesus!

Ed

 

franklin

23rd August 2002, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by edpobre
Hi Franklin!
Add to this John 8:40 KJV which says: "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN who has told you the TRUTH which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this."
There is simply NO WAY that the Nicene Creed is telling the TRUTH about Jesus! Ed 

Aaaamen Ed!  We can add many, many passages to disprove not only this creed but just about all the rest of them!  No one even knows who wrote the man made nicene creed!  The author is unknown!  He was probably some guy who was up late one night with his candle burning out and low on ink for his feathered pen!   :D   Which brought something else to my attention, isn't there something in Revelation about re-writing, adding to and taking away from the inspired word of God?  hmmmmm!!!  Makes one wonder huh?!?

 

PrinceJeff

23rd August 2002, 04:27 PM

2 Peter 1 I guess that makes Peter a liar then. OOOOOH Ed and Franklin I guess Peter is in Hell because he called Jesus "our great God and Savior"! And don't give me any tripe about it being a mistranslation according to your more correct Lamsa or TEV or Moffatt bibles.

ZoneChaos

23rd August 2002, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by edpobre

ZoneChaos,

Are you saying that  those who do NOT believe the Nicene Creed can be Christians too! Then why was I told NOT to post in the "Christians Only" forum because I don't believe the Nicene Creed? Is there a  NON-Trinitarian who believes ther Nicene Creed?

Ed

I would asume you were told not to, becasue we have a set view of Christian standards for our board.  That is not saying that those who may differ from us are not Christians, but it is saying that they are not in,line with our vision for the board and our testimony.  This board is as our church, and there needs to be a measure of harmony in the leadership, and vision and mission of the board.

Lanakila

23rd August 2002, 08:51 PM

You non-trinitarians have you ever read the book of Hebrews? It makes no sense unless Jesus is God the son. So we just discount the scriptures we don't like now, picking and chosing those that fit our already determined viewpoint. Let God be true and every man a Liar. Not only Hebrews but Isaiah 9:6 is very clear that the Messiah to come would be "Everlasting Father".

ansarthemystic

23rd August 2002, 09:03 PM

Lanakila,
Is it not possible that the people who wrote the NT(b/c there are verses affirming AND refuting the Trinity) and the Nicean Creed, were well aware of Hebrews and Isiaiah. Thus they encounterd a dilema:Yeshau(AS) had to be g-d, even though he never said so, b/c ONLY g-d could be the savior. Classic interpolation

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom

edpobre

23rd August 2002, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by Lanakila
You non-trinitarians have you ever read the book of Hebrews? It makes no sense unless Jesus is God the son. So we just discount the scriptures we don't like now, picking and chosing those that fit our already determined viewpoint. Let God be true and every man a Liar. Not only Hebrews but Isaiah 9:6 is very clear that the Messiah to come would be "Everlasting Father".

Hi Lakanila!

I understand that your "already determined viewpoint" is the Trinity, right? And you PICK Isaiah 9:6 and Heb. 1:8 to the EXCLUSION of other verses you don't like because these verses FIT your "already determined viewpoint," right?

Isaiah 9:6 is either a prophecy that did NOT come true or a MISTRANSLATION which CONTRADICTS known and accepted TRUTHS about Jesus. If this were an accurate translation, then Isaiah's prophecy did NOT come true. Jesus was NEVER called "mighty God and everlasting Father."

Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40). His apostles TAUGHT that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). Jesus taught that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Jesus COMMANDED his disciples not to call anyone  on earth Father for ONE is their Father, He who is in heaven (Matt. 23:9).

Thus, the second part of Isaiah 9:6 is a MISTRANSLATION to provide support to the FALSE belief that Jesus is God.

Heb. 1:8 was LIFTED from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. The Hebrew writer did NOT talk to God about God's Son. Heb. 1:1-2 teaches that God in various times spoke to our fathers by the prophets has in these last days spoke to us by His SON. Thus, the only way the Hebrew writer knew anything about what God said is by lifting it from the Old Testament.

Psalm 45 is a poem written for a king who is the most handsome among men (verse 2).  Psalm 45:6 is rendered by the Today's English Version as "the kingdom that God has given you." This version is supported by Luke 1:32-33.

Heb. 1:9 was lifted from Psalm 45:7 which is an accurate translation. You will note that this verse talks of God  anointing the king with oil ABOVE his fellows or companions. If the king were God as Psalm 45:6 and Heb. 1:8 would want us to believe, how many Gods can you read?

Ed

Laura

24th August 2002, 12:09 AM

I've never met a Christian who didn't believe in the Trinity. I don't see how you can deny the Trinity...

edpobre

24th August 2002, 06:24 AM

Originally posted by Laura
I've never met a Christian who didn't believe in the Trinity. I don't see how you can deny the Trinity...

Hi Laura!

I can't blame you. I bet neither your Sunday school teacher nor your pastor have met one either.

You see Laura, FALSE teachers and preachers will NEVER deliver the TRUE messages of God because they are NOT His messengers. As apostle Paul rhetorically asked: "But how can they preach UNLESS they are SENT?" (Romans 10:15)

Laura, the Bible teaches that DISCIPLES of Christ were first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch (Acts 11:26). Thus, CHRISTIANS are disciples of Christ. But WHO are DISCIPLES of Christ? The Bible teaches that a DISCIPLE of Christ is one who BELIEVES in Christ and ABIDES in his words (John 8:31).

Jesus SAID that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3,1). Jesus also SAID that ONE is our FATHER, He who is in heaven (Matt. 23:9).  At the time Jesus SAID this, he was on earth with his disciples.

Do Trinitarians BELIEVE Jesus and ABIDE in these words? NO!Are Trinitarians DISCIPLES of Christ? NO! Are Trinitarians CHRISTIANS? NO!

Anyone can say he is an American even if he is NOT until authorities find out and deport him. Such is the fate of Trinitarians come judgment day unless they come out of their church NOW "lest they share in her sins and receive of her  plagues" (Rev. 18:4).

Ed

edpobre

24th August 2002, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by eldermike
2TI 1:8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11 And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

Hi eldermike!

What was God's own purpose and grace that was given to the disciples in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time?

Let me quote to you God's word in the Toiday's English Version: "Even before the world was made, God had already chosen us to be his through our union with Christ, so that we would be holy and without fault in him. Because of his love God had alreeady decided that through Jersus Christ he would make us his sons - this was his plesure and purpose" (Eph. 1:4-5).

How do you become a son of God?

Ed

Laura

24th August 2002, 04:42 PM

Sorry Ed, I'm not buying it. :)

Job_38

24th August 2002, 04:51 PM

John Chapter One, Verses one through fourteen.

Lanakila

24th August 2002, 08:21 PM

Way too many scriptures to rationalize there guys. You seem to be picking and chosing the ones you like, and kicking out the ones you don't as mistranslations.

Neo

24th August 2002, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by Duane Morse
Here is what I think:
God the Father is the Daddy, the male
God the Holy Spirit is Mommy, the female
God the Son is the kid, the offspring
are you a gnostic?

franklin

25th August 2002, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Phoenix
 I'm a strong supporter of a Trinity doctrine and believer that Jesus is God. If you do a little research on that verse you'll find that it only appears in a few later manuscripts. It's suspected by most scholars that the verse was added to the passage in error. 

Hi phoenix, you are correct sir!  This is one of the passages that was tampered with by the English translators. It has been suggested that is was designed to put to rest the debate concerning the doctrine of the trinity. Yet I think it would be safe to say that this verse would not have needed to be inserted into the Bible by any man if the doctrine were correct, because the bible would teach this doctrine clearly, and surely if it were true then Jesus himself would have taught it. But Jesus didn't teach this doctrine, on the contrary he actually taught us that his Father is his God and our God.  See Jn 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

OldShepherd

26th August 2002, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by El Pobre
Hi Lakanila!

I understand that your "already determined viewpoint" is the Trinity, right? And you PICK Isaiah 9:6 and Heb. 1:8 to the EXCLUSION of other verses you don't like because these verses FIT your "already determined viewpoint," right?

Isaiah 9:6 is either a prophecy that did NOT come true or a MISTRANSLATION which CONTRADICTS known and accepted TRUTHS about Jesus. If this were an accurate translation, then Isaiah's prophecy did NOT come true. Jesus was NEVER called "mighty God and everlasting Father."

Thus, the second part of Isaiah 9:6 is a MISTRANSLATION to provide support to the FALSE belief that Jesus is God.

Heb. 1:8 was LIFTED from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. The Hebrew writer did NOT talk to God about God's Son. Heb. 1:1-2 teaches that God in various times spoke to our fathers by the prophets has in these last days spoke to us by His SON. Thus, the only way the Hebrew writer knew anything about what God said is by lifting it from the Old Testament.

Psalm 45 is a poem written for a king who is the most handsome among men (verse 2). Psalm 45:6 is rendered by the Today's English Version as "the kingdom that God has given you." This version is supported by Luke 1:32-33.

Heb. 1:9 was lifted from Psalm 45:7 which is an accurate translation. You will note that this verse talks of God; anointing the king with oil ABOVE his fellows or companions. If the king, were God as Psalm 45:6 and Heb. 1:8 would want us to believe, how many Gods can you read?Ed

First, I want to remind you that I asked you several questions about the Iglesia Ni Christi cult that you belong to and you never answered. Here are links for others who are interested in what this cult, which was founded in 1913, by Felix Manalo, teaches.

http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html

Second, you have not presented one piece of proof or evidence that anything you have said is true. You might blindly follow the teachings of manalo and his son, who now runs the organization, but most thinking, reasoning, discerning, Christians want proof and evidence before they will believe the uneducated ramblings of a Pinoy Jim Jones or David Koresh.

Notice, how Hebrews 1 is correct when it agrees with your doctrine and mistranslated when it does not. Since you are trying to tell us that the O.T. was mistranslated and the disciples used a mistranslation, perhaps you can correctly translate this passage of Hebrew for us.

ככלב שב על-קאו כסיל שונה באולתו

Here is a quote from a book written in the 19th century by a messianic Jew. Note that throughout history the Jews considered Psalm 45 messianic.

Quote
=================================
The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim
Appendix IX. List of Old Testament Passages Messianically Applied in the Ancient Rabbinic Writings.

Ps. xlv. is throughout regarded as Messianic. To begin with; the Targum renders verse 2 (3 in the Hebrew): 'Thy beauty, O King Messiah, is greater than that of the sons of men.'

Verse 3 (4 in the Hebrew) is applied in the Talmud (Shabb 63 a) to the Messiah, although other interpretations of that verse immediately follow.

The application of verse 6 (7 in the Hebrew), to the Messiah in a MS. copy of the Targum has already been referred to in another part of his book, while the words, 'Thy throne is for ever and ever' are brought into connection with the promise that the sceptre would not depart from Judah in Ber. R. 99, ed. Warsh. p. 178 b, line 9 from the bottom.

On verse 7 the Targum though not in the Venice edition (1568), has: 'Thou O King Messiah because Thou lovest righteousness,' &c. Comp. Levy, Targum. vol. ii. p. 41 a.

The Midrash on the Psalm deals exclusively with the inscription (of which it has several and significant interpretations) with the opening words of the Psalm, and with the words (ver. 16), 'Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children,' but at the same time it clearly indicates that the Psalm applies to the latter, or Messianic, days.

http://www.ccel.org/e/edersheim/lifetimes/htm/VI.ix.htm#VI.ix

============================================

Since you claim that Hebrew chap. 1, relies on falsely translated scriptures perhaps you can tell us how the Qumran and Dead Sea Scrolls record these passages.

לקור אזר ידה

Future Man

26th August 2002, 01:36 AM

This is a great start. I've debated christadelphians ad nauseum on this topic.. :angel:

God bless,
FM

franklin

26th August 2002, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by Laura
I've never met a Christian who didn't believe in the Trinity. I don't see how you can deny the Trinity...

1 John 2:22, "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." 1 John 4:15, "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." These are quoted to prove "we are warned not to belittle Christ." Jesus Christ rendered perfect obedience, never sinned, overcame every weakness and temptation. Therefore God hath exalted him that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow (Philippians 2:9-10).  

I don't see how you cannot deny it.  This is from the word of God not some man made creed!  Notice 1Jn 4:15 says, "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God?  Not, God the Son?   

OldShepherd

27th August 2002, 06:24 AM

Originally posted by franklin
I don't see how you cannot deny it.  This is from the word of God not some man made creed! Notice 1Jn 4:15 says, "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God? ;Not, God the Son?

The KJV Bible has 31,172 verses. You have only quoted one verse. My Bible also has John 1:1-14, Philip 2;6-11, John 8:58, 1 John 5:7, and

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

And I note that Jesus did not tell Thomas, not to call Him God, because He was only the son of God. And since I learned to speak Greek the year of Sputnik I and Elvis Germany tour, I can tell you that the form of the Greek is not an exclamation, such as "Oh My God!" but the vocative. Thomas was calling Jesus God, no ifs, ands, or buts.

wblastyn

27th August 2002, 08:40 AM

The Jesus of the Bible is God made flesh, so if you worship a Jesus who is not God, then you worship a different Jesus to the Christian Jesus.

franklin

27th August 2002, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by wblastyn
The Jesus of the Bible is God made flesh, so if you worship a Jesus who is not God, then you worship a different Jesus to the Christian Jesus.

Unlike his Father who is invisible, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. But we must remember that his Father is greater than himself.  Jesus is the Word and he resides between God and Man and is our mediator to God. It was the Word that became flesh, not God who became flesh as some say and all things that were created were created by God though his Word. See John 1:3: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made".
Jesus was divinely begotten and this is why he is called Gods only begotten Son and this is what makes him unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man, this is why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved.

websitejack

27th August 2002, 12:32 PM

Others viewed Jesus as God

1 Timothy 3:16 -Paul Said Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh , justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the nations, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

John 20:28 -Thomas called Jesus God.
"And Thomas answered, and said unto him, My Lord and my God ."

Colosians 2:8,9 -Paul said Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
"Christ. For in him dwelleth all of the fullness of the Godhead bodily ."

Titus 2:13 -Paul said Jesus was God.
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our savior, Jesus Christ ."

Luke 8:39 -After Jesus healed a demon possess man, Jesus said:
"Return to thine house, and show what great things God hath done unto thee. And he went on his way and published throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done unto him."

Rom. 14:10b -12 -Paul uses the words Jesus and God interchangeably.
"For we shall all stand before the judgment Seat of Christ . For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So, then, "every one of us shall give account of himself to God ."

Phil. 2:5b, 6 -Paul said Jesus was God.
"Jesus Christ, who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

websitejack

27th August 2002, 12:34 PM

The people around Jesus understood Jesus was claiming to be God

John 10:33 -The Jews felt Jesus was claiming to be God.
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God ."

John 5:18 -The Jews felt Jesus was making himself equal with God.
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God ."

websitejack

27th August 2002, 12:38 PM

Jesus claimed to be God

John 10:30 - Jesus said He was part of God. He said, "I and my Father are one."

Exodus 3:14 -God identifies Himself to Moses by calling himself "I AM ." Twice Jesus refers to Himself as the "I AM ." Those around him knew exactly what he was saying and they were greatly offended.
"Jesus said unto them, Verily verily, I say you, before Abraham was, I am . Then they took up stones to cast at him …" (John 8:58, 59a)

"Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them I am he. As soon as he said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground." (John 18:4b, 5, 6)

[Note: In the Bible, the word "he" is in italic. Whenever a word was not in the original Greek or Hebrew, but was put in for clarity, the King James translators put the word in italic. This was done so there would be no misunderstanding about what was and was not part of the original text]

Revelation 1:8 -18 -Jesus said, he is the Almighty Lord. The following is a vision John had of Jesus. Verses 2, 13, 17,18 identify Jesus as the:
(v 2) "… testimony of Jesus Christ …"

(v 8) "I am Alpha and Omega , the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty ."

(v 11) "Saying I am alpha and Omega, the first and the last …"

(v 13) "And in the midst of the seven lamp stands, one like the Son of man …"

(v 17b. 18a) "Fear not; I am the first and the last ; I am he that liveth and was dead…"

Isaiah 44:6 -In Rev 1:11, Jesus says He is the first and the last. Isa. 44:6 shows that the one who is "first and the last is actually God. "Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and his redeemer, the Lord of host: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me there is not God ."

websitejack

27th August 2002, 12:47 PM

The Bible says Jesus is God

Hebrews 1:8 -God the Father said Jesus was God.
"Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God , is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom."

Isaiah 9:6 -Jesus (the Messiah) is called the Mighty God.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God , the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace."

Matthew 1:23 -Jesus is called Immanuel, which means "God with us."

"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which, being interpreted, is God with us ."

Zechariah 12:10 -God uses the first person (“me”) and the third person (“him”) to describe Himself as the one who will be pierced.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for HIM , as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 1:1 -Jesus (the "Word") is God
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ."

Revelation 22:6, 16 -The book of Revelation says that Jesus and God are the same.
(v6) "And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true; and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

(v 16) "I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches …"

Every knee will bow to both God and Jesus. Here are verses talking about every knee bowing to God.
"Look unto me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God and there is none else. … that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" (Isaiah 45:22,23b)

Here are verses talking every knee bowing to Jesus.
"… stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:10b, 11)

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow … and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." (Philippians 2:10a,11a)

John 5:23 -We have to honor Jesus that same way as God the Father.
"That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who hath sent him."

Both God and Jesus are called our "Savior." Here are verses calling God our savior.
"… I am He, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord and besides me there is no savior ." (Isaiah 43:10b, 11)

"… And there is no God else beside me, a just God and Savior ; there is none beside me." (Isaiah 45:21b)

Here are verses calling Jesus our savior.
Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

"But hath in due time manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God, our Savior ;" (Titus 1:3)

"Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God, our Savior , in all things." (Titus 2:10)

"But after the kindness and love of God, our Savior, toward man appeared." (Titus 3:4)

"To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God, the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior ." (Titus 1:4)

"Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior ," (Titus 3:6)

edpobre

29th August 2002, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Laura
Sorry Ed, I'm not buying it. :)

Hi Laura!

What are you not buying?

1) Acts 11:26 which says that the DISCIPLES of Christ were first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch;

2) John 8:31 where Jesus said to the Jews who BELIEVED in him: "...if you ABIDE in my word, you are my DISCIPLES indeed";

3) John 8:40 where Jesus SAID "why do you seek to kill ME, a MAN who has told you the TRUTH...";

4) John 17:3 where Jesus PRAYED to the Father (verse 1): "...And this is ETERNAL LIFE, thata they may know YOU the ONLY true God AND Jesus Christ whom YOU have sent."

5) John 3:18 where Jesus says that he who BELIEVES in him is NOT condemned; but he who does NOT believe him is CONDEMNED already."

You still BELIEVE Trinitarians are Christians?

Ed

 

edpobre

29th August 2002, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by Job_38
John Chapter One, Verses one through fourteen.

Hi Job!

The WORD in John 1:1 is "logos" in Greek and is defined by Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary as "God's WISDOM manifest in the creation, government and redemption of the world."

God's WISDOM regarding the "redemption of the world" is manifest in His PLAN recorded in Ephesians 1:3-14 of the Today's English Version of the Bible. This PLAN which involved Jesus (Gen. 3:15; Gen. 17:7; Isaiah 7:14; 1 Peter 1:20) was in the beginning WITH God because this PLAN was conceived by God BEFORE the creation of the world and WAS God because the PLAN is CERTAIN of implementation. John 1:1 is a figure of speech.

John 1:14 is apostle John's figurative description of the FULFILLMENT of God's PLAN which is the manifestation of God's WISDOM or "logos."

John 1:2-13 and 15-18 are apostle John's description of Jesus, the flesh that the WORD turned into.

Ed

edpobre

29th August 2002, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by Lanakila
Way too many scriptures to rationalize there guys. You seem to be picking and chosing the ones you like, and kicking out the ones you don't as mistranslations.

Hi Lanakila!

Aren't you actually saying that I have presented way too many scriptures to demolish the TWO verses you picked to support your FALSE belief that Jesus is God?

Why can't you be HUMBLE and HONEST my friend and ACCEPT the word of TRUTH that CAME out of Jesus' lips - that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)?

Ed

edpobre

29th August 2002, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by OldShepherd  

First, I want to remind you that I asked you several questions about the Iglesia Ni Christi cult that you belong to and you never answered. Here are links for others who are interested in what this cult, which was founded in 1913, by Felix Manalo, teaches.

http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html
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As always, you are NOT telling the TRUTH. How many times must I answer your questions for you to understand? And because you FAIL to understand, you accuse me of evading your questions. Why don't you post them again so that our NEW readers may know how NARROW-minded you are!
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Second, you have not presented one piece of proof or evidence that anything you have said is true. You might blindly follow the teachings of manalo and his son, who now runs the organization, but most thinking, reasoning, discerning, Christians want proof and evidence before they will believe the uneducated ramblings of a Pinoy Jim Jones or David Koresh.
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Isn't John 8:40 TRUE Oldshepherd? Jesus says, "...ME, a MAN..." Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT that Jesus is a MAN and cites John 8:40 as his source. Did Bro. Manalo TEACH a lie? NO! Aren't you FALSELY accusing Bro. Manalo of teaching a lie? You bet you are!

Isn't John 17:3 true Oldshepherd? Jesus says "...that they may know YOU (referring to the FATHER), the ONLY true God..." Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT that the FATHER is the ONLY true God. Did Bro. Manalo TEACH a lie? NO! Aren't you FALSELY accusing Bro. Manalo of teaching a lie? You bet you are!

If you are as "educated" as you THINK you are, you would REALIZE that you have just EXPOSED yourself open as the LIAR that you are!
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Notice, how Hebrews 1 is correct when it agrees with your doctrine and mistranslated when it does not. Since you are trying to tell us that the O.T. was mistranslated and the disciples used a mistranslation, perhaps you can correctly translate this passage of Hebrew for us.
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Again, you are showing our readers the kind of an "educated" man you are. Show our readers where I said that Hebrews 1 and the Old Testament are MISTRANSLATED.
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Here is a quote from a book written in the 19th century by a messianic Jew. Note that throughout history the Jews considered Psalm 45 messianic.
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Wow! What a wild "educated" guess! So what if the Jews considered Psalm 45 messianic! That does NOT mean that throughout history, the Jews considered Jesus as God.
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The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim
Appendix IX. List of Old Testament Passages Messianically Applied in the Ancient Rabbinic Writings.

Ps. xlv. is throughout regarded as Messianic. To begin with; the Targum renders verse 2 (3 in the Hebrew): 'Thy beauty, O King Messiah, is greater than that of the sons of men.'

Verse 3 (4 in the Hebrew) is applied in the Talmud (Shabb 63 a) to the Messiah, although other interpretations of that verse immediately follow.

The application of verse 6 (7 in the Hebrew), to the Messiah in a MS. copy of the Targum has already been referred to in another part of his book, while the words, 'Thy throne is for ever and ever' are brought into connection with the promise that the sceptre would not depart from Judah in Ber. R. 99, ed. Warsh. p. 178 b, line 9 from the bottom.

On verse 7 the Targum though not in the Venice edition (1568), has: 'Thou O King Messiah because Thou lovest righteousness,' &c. Comp. Levy, Targum. vol. ii. p. 41 a.

The Midrash on the Psalm deals exclusively with the inscription (of which it has several and significant interpretations) with the opening words of the Psalm, and with the words (ver. 16), 'Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children,' but at the same time it clearly indicates that the Psalm applies to the latter, or Messianic, days.

http://www.ccel.org/e/edersheim/lifetimes/htm/VI.ix.htm#VI.ix

What are you hiding Oldshepherd? Why didn't you include in here what your reference ACTUALLY thought about verse 6?

The footnote for Heb. 1:8 indicates that this verse was  lifted from Psalm 45:6. Your reference does NOT show that Psalm 45:6 was indeed rendered as "Thy throne O God."
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Since you claim that Hebrew chap. 1, relies on falsely translated scriptures perhaps you can tell us how the Qumran and Dead Sea Scrolls record these passages.
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Again, you are NOT telling the TRUTH. Show our readers where I CLAIMED that Hebrews chap. 1 was falsely translated. One who is "educated" must be careful when discussing important matters such as this.

Ed

edpobre

29th August 2002, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Future Man
This is a great start. I've debated christadelphians ad nauseum on this topic.. :angel:

God bless,
FM

Please show scripture which teaches that Jesus WAS the WORD of God BEFORE he was born. Also, please show scripture which authorizes apostle John to declare, make known or introduce who God is.

Then tell me why apostle John wrote in verse 18 that "NO ONE has ever seen God at any time" when in truth and in fact, apostle John SAW Jesus  (whom you think John introduced as God in verse 1) maybe a hundred times?

Ed

edpobre

29th August 2002, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by OldShepherd

The KJV Bible has 31,172 verses. You have only quoted one verse. My Bible also has John 1:1-14, Philip 2;6-11, John 8:58, 1 John 5:7, and

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

And I note that Jesus did not tell Thomas, not to call Him God, because He was only the son of God. And since I learned to speak Greek the year of Sputnik I and Elvis Germany tour, I can tell you that the form of the Greek is not an exclamation, such as "Oh My God!" but the vocative. Thomas was calling Jesus God, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Hi Oldshepherd!

The verses you cited do NOT override what Jesus, our LORD and savior TAUGHT regarding himself and the ONLY true God. These apostles acquired their knowledge from Jesus. FYI, God in the past SPOKE to our fathers by the PROPHETS has in these last days SPOKE to us by His SON (Heb. 1:1-2). God did NOT speak to these apostles. Thus, they do NOT have any authority to CONTRADICT what Jesus TAUGHT.

Yes, Thomas called Jesus God. Does it mean Thomas was correct?

Whether Jesus rebuked him or not is not important. The important thing to bear in mind is what Jesus SAID as recorded in John 3:17-18: "For God did not SEND His SON into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved. He who BELIEVES in him is NOT condemned; but he who does NOT believe is CONDEMNED already, because he has NOT believed in the namne of the only begotten SON of God."

Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER (alone) is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Is Thomas authorized to ADD to what Jesus TAUGHT? NO! Is Thomas authorized to MODIFY what Jesus TAUGHT? NO! Is Thomas authorized to CHANGE what Jesus TAUGHT? NO!

Therefore, the only explanation for what Thomas said is that he MISTAKENLY thought Jesus is God.

Ed

edpobre

29th August 2002, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by wblastyn
The Jesus of the Bible is God made flesh, so if you worship a Jesus who is not God, then you worship a different Jesus to the Christian Jesus.

Hi wblastyn!

Are you sure the Jesus of the Bible is God made flesh? Or is that a product of your own interpretation or what your pastor taught you? Can you show scripture which says JUST that?

The Jesus of the Bible that I know is the one who SAID in John 8:40: "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN who has told you the TRUTH that I heafrd from God...."

The SAME Jesus of the Bible that I know is the one who SAID to the FATHER in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU the ONLY true God AND Jesus Christ whom YOU have SENT."

TRUE Christians worship Jesus NOT because he is God but because God COMMANDS angels to worship him (Heb. 1:6) and people to bend their knees at his name to the GLORY of God the Father (Phil. 2:9-11).

FYI, a Christian is one who BELIEVES Jesus and ABIDES in his word (Acts 11:26; John 8:31). One who CONTRADICTS what Jesus TAUGHT is NOT a Christian. He is an ANTICHRIST or one who OPPOSES the doctrines of Christ.

Ed

edpobre

29th August 2002, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by websitejack
Others viewed Jesus as God

1 Timothy 3:16 -Paul Said Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh , justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the nations, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

John 20:28 -Thomas called Jesus God.
"And Thomas answered, and said unto him, My Lord and my God ."

Colosians 2:8,9 -Paul said Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
"Christ. For in him dwelleth all of the fullness of the Godhead bodily ."

Titus 2:13 -Paul said Jesus was God.
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our savior, Jesus Christ ."

Luke 8:39 -After Jesus healed a demon possess man, Jesus said:
"Return to thine house, and show what great things God hath done unto thee. And he went on his way and published throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done unto him."

Rom. 14:10b -12 -Paul uses the words Jesus and God interchangeably.
"For we shall all stand before the judgment Seat of Christ . For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So, then, "every one of us shall give account of himself to God ."

Phil. 2:5b, 6 -Paul said Jesus was God.
"Jesus Christ, who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

Hi websitejack!

Granted without admitting that apostles Paul, John, Luke and Thomas viewed Jesus as God, does that mean they are correct? Have you ever stopped to THINK where in the world did they LEARN that Jesus is God?

Did these apostles TALK to God separately from Jesus?  No way! The Bible teaches that God SPOKE in these last days BY His SON (Heb. 1:1-2).

Did Jesus TEACH these apostles that he is God? No way either! Jesus TAUGHT them that he is a MAN (John 8:40). Jesus also TAUGHT them that the FATHER (alone) is the ONLY true God (John  17:3).

Have you ever stopped to THINK why apostles Paul and Peter would write that God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3)? Have you ever stopped to THINK why apostle Paul  would write in 1 Cor. 8:6 that for them (Christians), there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER?

Have you ever stopped to THINK why Jesus would say in John 20:17 that he is ascending to his Father and OUR Father, to his God and OUR God?

Ed

 

edpobre

29th August 2002, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by websitejack
The people around Jesus understood Jesus was claiming to be God

John 10:33 -The Jews felt Jesus was claiming to be God.
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God ."

John 5:18 -The Jews felt Jesus was making himself equal with God.
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God ."

Hi websitejack!

Whose side are you on my friend - the Jews or Jesus?  

In John 10:36, Jesus said "I am the SON of God" and the Jews THOUGHT he was making himself God (John 10:33). Were they correct in accusing Jesus of blasphemy (being a man, he made himself God)? NO! Did Jesus make himself God by saying "I am the SON of God?" NO!

In John 5:18, Jesus said "God was his Father" and the Jews THOUGHT he was making himself equal to God. Were they correct in accusing Jesus of making himself equal to God by saying that God was his Father? NO! Did Jesus make himself equal to God by saying "God was his Father?" NO!

Ed

edpobre

29th August 2002, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by websitejack
The Bible says Jesus is God

Hebrews 1:8 -God the Father said Jesus was God.
"Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God , is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom."

Isaiah 9:6 -Jesus (the Messiah) is called the Mighty God.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God , the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace."

Heb. 1:8 was lifted from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. The correct translation for Psalm 45:6 is: "Thy kingdom which God has given you." This MISTRANSLATED version makes it appear that there are TWO separate and distinct Gods and if you go on to Heb. 1:9, it would appear that there are "fellow-Gods" of the anointed God.

Matthew 1:23 -Jesus is called Immanuel, which means "God with us."

"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which, being interpreted, is God with us."

The birth of Jesus (verse 21)  is the fulfillment of verse 23 which is lifted from Isaiah 7:14. The word "Immanuel" which means "God with us" is a description of the end-result of Jesus' mission of salvation. Those who are saved through Jesus will dwell with God and God will DWELL with them (Rev. 21:3)

Zechariah 12:10 -God uses the first person (“me”) and the third person (“him”) to describe Himself as the one who will be pierced.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for HIM , as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

This is a blatant attempt to TWIST scripture to make it appear that Jesus is God.  There are other versions of the Bible which are NOT translated this way. God is a SPIRIT  so he CANNOT be pierced and CANNOT die. The prophet Zachariah knew that. 

John 1:1 -Jesus (the "Word") is God
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ."

Show me where it says that Jesus is the WORD of God.

Revelation 22:6, 16 -The book of Revelation says that Jesus and God are the same.
(v6) "And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true; and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel  to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

(v 16) "I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches …"

Rev. 5:6 shows the LAMB standing in front of the one who sat on the throne and took the scroll from His right hand. The one who sat on the throne is God Almighty (Rev. 4:2; 8,11). In Rev. 5:13, we read the elders worshiping both the one who sat on the throne and the Lamb.

Every knee will bow to both God and Jesus. Here are verses talking about every knee bowing to God.
"Look unto me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God and there is none else. … that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" (Isaiah 45:22,23b)

Here are verses talking every knee bowing to Jesus.
"… stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:10b, 11)

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow … and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." (Philippians 2:10a,11a)

John 5:23 -We have to honor Jesus that same way as God the Father.
"That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who hath sent him."

Worshiping Jesus does NOT make him God because it was God who COMMANDS that we worship Jesus.

Both God and Jesus are called our "Savior." Here are verses calling God our savior.
"… I am He, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even [B]I, am the Lord and besides me there is no savior ." (Isaiah 43:10b, 11)

"… And there is no God else beside me, a just God and Savior ; there is none beside me." (Isaiah 45:21b)

Here are verses calling Jesus our savior.
Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

"But hath in due time manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God, our Savior ;" (Titus 1:3)

"Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God, our Savior , in all things." (Titus 2:10)

"But after the kindness and love of God, our Savior, toward man appeared." (Titus 3:4)

"To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God, the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior ." (Titus 1:4)

"Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior ," (Titus 3:6)

God MADE Jesus Prince and SAVIOR (Acts 5:31).

Ed

edpobre

29th August 2002, 02:20 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by websitejack
Jesus claimed to be God

John 10:30 - Jesus said He was part of God. He said, "I and my Father are one."

Jesus did NOT say he is a part of God. You are putting words in Jesus' mouth.

Exodus 3:14 -God identifies Himself to Moses by calling himself "I AM ." Twice Jesus refers to Himself as the "I AM ." Those around him knew exactly what he was saying and they were greatly offended.
"Jesus said unto them, Verily verily, I say you, before Abraham was, I am . Then they took up stones to cast at him …" (John 8:58, 59a)

Jesus did NOT say he is claiming the name of God. That's only what you want Jesus to say. 

"Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them I am he. As soon as he said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground." (John 18:4b, 5, 6)

[Note: In the Bible, the word "he" is in italic. Whenever a word was not in the original Greek or Hebrew, but was put in for clarity, the King James translators put the word in italic. This was done so there would be no misunderstanding about what was and was not part of the original text]

Jesus said "I am" he - NOT "I am" God. That's only what you want Jesus to mean. This does NOT nullify Jesus' declaration that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Revelation 1:8 -18 -Jesus said, he is the Almighty Lord. The following is a vision John had of Jesus. Verses 2, 13, 17,18 identify Jesus as the:
(v 2) "… testimony of Jesus Christ …"

(v 8) "I am Alpha and Omega , the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty ."

(v 11) "Saying I am alpha and Omega, the first and the last …"

(v 13) "And in the midst of the seven lamp stands, one like the Son of man …"

(v 17b. 18a) "Fear not; I am the first and the last ; I am he that liveth and was dead…"

Isaiah 44:6 -In Rev 1:11, Jesus says He is the first and the last. Isa. 44:6 shows that the one who is "first and the last is actually God. "Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and his redeemer, the Lord of host: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me there is not God ."

Rev. 1:8 was uttered by the Lord God  who is (today), who was (yesterday) who is to come (for ever) the Almighty who sat on the throne (Rev. 4:2) and was worshiped by the four living creatures (Rev. 4:8) and identified as the CREATOR of all things by the 24 elders (Rev. 4:11).

Rev. 1:11 was uttered by the Son of Man (Rev. 1:13). Rev. 21:6 was uttered by the one who sat on the throne (Rev. 21:5) and Rev. 22:13 was uttered by Jesus (Rev. 22:16).

Ed

OldShepherd

1st September 2002, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by El Pobre
What are you hiding Oldshepherd? Why didn't you include in here what your reference ACTUALLY thought about verse 6?
I am hiding absolutely nothing, I posted a link to my source, so everyone can verify what I say, so this question is a false accusation. If you have any direct evidence that I have misquoted or hidden anything please post it, show what you falsely claim I am hiding.

The footnote for Heb. 1:8 indicates that this verse was lifted from Psalm 45:6. Your reference does NOT show that Psalm 45:6 was indeed rendered as "Thy throne O God."

False accusation, I did notsay that it did!

Previously posted by OS: Since you claim that Hebrew chap. 1, relies on falsely translated scriptures perhaps you can tell us how the Qumran and Dead Sea Scrolls record these passages.

Again, you are NOT telling the TRUTH. Show our readers where I CLAIMED that Hebrews chap. 1 was falsely translated. One who is "educated" must be careful when discussing important matters such as this.

Here is the link to your previous post, 24th August 2002 04:54 AM.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=21028&perpage=10&pagenumber=4
Posted by El Pobre
Heb. 1:8 was LIFTED from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6 The Hebrew writer did NOT talk to God about God's Son. Heb. 1:1-2 teaches that God in various times spoke to our fathers by the prophets has in these last days spoke to us by His SON. Thus, the only way the Hebrew writer knew anything about what God said is by lifting it from the Old Testament.

Isaiah 9:6 is either a prophecy that did NOT come true or a MISTRANSLATION which CONTRADICTS known and accepted TRUTHS about Jesus. If this were an accurate translation, then Isaiah's prophecy did NOT come true. Jesus was NEVER called "mighty God and everlasting Father."

Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40). His apostles TAUGHT that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). Jesus taught that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Jesus COMMANDED his disciples not to call anyone on earth Father for ONE is their Father, He who is in heaven (Matt. 23:9).
So who is telling the truth and who is making false accusations? I ask my question again, more specifically. Since you claim to that Psalm 45:6 is definitely mistranslated and Isaiah 9:6 is possibly mistranslated or an unfulfilled prophecy, you must have some expertise in the Hebrew language, so please translate the Bible passage I posted, in Hebrew, in my previous post. And since I am convinced that you cannot do it, then post an exegesis of that passage by any Iglesia Ni Christo scholar. By exegesis, I don’t mean someone just saying what they think the Hebrew means but a full locating of all the words, whether they are Pual, Hithpael, etc, perfect or imperfect, etc.

”Jesus was NEVER called "mighty God and everlasting Father." Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence! If we use your criteria then we would have to say that Jesus never went to the bathroom, took a bath, or changed clothes because it is never recorded in the Bible.

Any Jim Jones or David Koresh can say words and passages in the Bible are mistranslated and give their opinion what they think it means but since you mocked my training and scholarship then I would like to see some real exegesis of the scripture.

hobart schmedly

1st September 2002, 10:10 AM

There are over 500 plain scriptures that refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as being THREE SEPARATE AND DISTINCT PERSONS, each with His own personal body, soul, and spirit in the sense that all other persons have them. Two and three persons must be understood in all the passages below if the plain language is to be understood as it reads, for first, second, and third personal pronouns are used in the singular and the plural in the same way that we use them in reference to other persons. If two and three persons are referred to in all these passages and they are called God, then we must understand them as referring to this many divine persons, as we do when the same statements are made of two or three persons of the human race. Note the following scriptures:
Two Persons are Referred to in:
1. The Pentateuch: Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; 19:24; Ex. 14:19; 23:20-23; 32:34; 33:1-3; Num. 20:16; Deut. 18:15-19.
2. The historical books: Josh. 5:13-15; Judg. 2:1-5. The term, "the angel of the Lord" means "the angel from the Lord." The Lord is one person and the angel that comes from Him is another person. Both persons are divine, for the angel proves to be God in many of these passages, and certainly the Lord who sends the angel is another divine person. See Lesson Six, VI, for many scriptures where this term is found. Also, "the Spirit of the Lord" means "the Spirit from the Lord." The Lord is one divine person and the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, from the Lord is another divine person (Judg. 3 10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14; 1 Sam. 10:6; 16:13-14; 2 Sam. 23:2; etc.). The same is true of the Spirit of God" which is the Holy Spirit who was the agent of God and spake by the mouths of the prophets since the world began (Acts. 3:21; Heb. 1:1-2; 2 Pet. 1:21).
3. The poetical books: Ps.. 2:1-12; 8:3-6 with Heb. 2:5-8; 16:8-11; 22:1-31; 34:20; 45:6-7; 68:18; 69:8-9; 89:27; 110:1-5; 118:26; 119:97-104; 132:11, 17; Prov. 30:4.
4. The prophetical books: Isa. 7:14; 8:18 with Heb. 2:12-13; 9:6-7; 11:1-5; 42:1-7; 49:1-12; 50:4-11; 52:13-15; 53:1-12; 55:4-5; 63:1-10; Jer. 23:5-8; Ezek. 33:15-18; 34:29; Dan. 7:9-14; Hos. 11:1; Mic. 5:1-6; Hab. 2:7; Zech. 6:12-13; 12:10; 13:6, 7; Mal. 3:1-3.
5. The Gospels: Matt. 1:18-20; 2:6, 15, 22; 5:44-48; 6:1-18; 7:21; 9:38; 10:32-33, 40; 11:10, 25-27; 12:18, 28, 31-32, 50; 14:33; 15:13; 16:27; 17:5; 18:10, 19, 35; 19:17; 20:23; 21:9, 16; 22:21, 42; 23:8-10, 39; 26:29, 39, 42, 44, 53, 63-64; 27:43, 46; Mark 1:2, 8, 12, 24; 2:7; 3:11; 5:7; 8:38; 9:7; 11:25-26; 12: 27; 14:36, 62, 15:34, 39; 16:19; Luke 1:32-33; 2:11-14, 22, 38, 40, 49-52; 3:16; 4:1-14, 18,41; 7:27; 10:21-22; 11:13; 12:5-10, 32; 13:55; 16:13; 19:38; 20:35, 38, 39-44; 22:29; John 1:1-3, 5, 14, 18, 29, 36; 2:16-17; 3:2, 16-17; 4:10; 5:17-45; 6:27-65; 7:16-18, 28-29, 33-39; 8:14-56; 9:3-5, 33; 10:15-18, 25-38; 11:4, 22, 27, 41-42; 12:26-28, 44-50; 13:1-3, 20, 31-32; 4:1-31; 15:1-25; 16:3-32; 17:1-26; 18:11; 20:17-23, 31.
6. The book of Acts: Acts 1:16; 2:22-39; 3:7-26; 7:59-60; 9:3; 13:17-41; 16:6-34; 17:18-31; 18:5, 24-28; 19:1-7; 22:14; 26:8-9, 18-23; 28:23-31.
7. The Pauline Epistles: Rom. 1:7-10, 16; 2:16; 3:22-26; 4:24; 5:1-21; 6:3-23; 7:25; 8:29-34; 14:10-12; 15:5-7; 16:20-27; 1 Cor. 1:1-9, 14-30; 3:9-15; 4:1-21; 5:1-13; 8:4-6; 10:4-31; 11:3; 14:2-33; 15:15, 24-28, 57; 2 Cor. 1:1-23; 2:17; 4:2-15, 5:18-21, 8:1-19; 9:7-15; 10:1-14; 11:1-11, 31; 12:1-12, 19-21; 13:4-7; Gal. 1:1-12, 15-24; 2:16-21; 3:13-29; 5:1-6; 6:14-18; Eph. 1:1-2; Phil. 1:26-30; 2:12-16; 3:3, 14; 4:5-23; Col. 1:1-2, 12-28; 2:2-3:17; 4:3-12; 1 Thess. 2:1-18; 3:8-13; 4: 13-18; 2 Thess. 1:1-12; 2:1-12; 3:1-18; 1 Tim. 1:1-2, 11-17; 2:3-7; 5:21; 6:1-17; 2 Tim. 1:1-2; 2:1-26; 3:12-17; 4:1-2, 8-22; Titus 1:1-4, 7-16; 2:1-13; Ph'm. 1-25; Heb. 1:1-14, 2:5-18; 4:4-16; 5:1-14; 6:7-20; 7:1-26; 8:1-13; 9:24; 10:5-9, 19-23; 10:5-9, 19-23; 11:25-26; 12:2-3, 22-24; 13:4-21.
8. The General Epistles: Jas. 1:1; 2:1-5; 1 Pet. 1:5-9; 2:3-25; 4:1-11; 5:1-14; 2 Pet. 1:1-2, 2:1-4; 1 John 1:1-7; 2:1-2, 22-25; 3:1-3, 8-10; 4:9-10; 5:1, 20-21; 2 John 2; Jude 1, 4.
9. The Revelation: Rev. 1:1-2;2:7,10-11,16-18,28-29;3:14-16;4:5-8;5:1-11; 6:16-17; 7:9-17; 11:15; 12:10, 14-19; 15:1-4; 17:14-17; 19:1-21; 20:4-6; 21:2-14, 22-23; 22:1-21.
Three Persons are Referred to in:
1. The Old Testament: Plural pronouns are used of God (Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Ps. 2:3; Isa. 6:8). Elohim, the Heb. word for God in 2,700 places, is a uniplural noun, meaning Gods and is so translated 239 times. See point I, 1, above.
Two persons called God are often referred to, as seen in points 1, 2, 3, and 4, above. Three persons are clearly referred to in Ps. 45:6-17; Isa. 10:20-12:6; 42:1-7; 48:16; 59:15-21; 61:1-3 with Luke 4:18-21; 63:9-10; Zech. 3:8-9, 12:10-13:1.
2. The Gospels: Matt. 1:20-25; 3:9-17; 4:1-11; 12:18-21; 6 16-17; 22:42-46; 28:19-20; Mark 1:10-11; 12:35-37; Luke 1:32-35, 67-80; 2:25-35, 38; 3:22; 11:9-13; 24:49; John 1:31-34; 3:34-36; 14:16-21, 23-26; 15:26; 16:7-17; 20:21-23.
3. The book of Acts: Acts 1:1-8; 2:17-21, 33-39; 4:8-12, 24-31; 5:30-32; 6:1-15; 7:1-53; 7:54-56; 8:5-23, 29-39; 9:5-20; 10:2-48; 11:15-25; 13:2-12, 46-52; 15:7-29; 18:24-28; 20:21-35.
4. The Pauline Epistles: Rom. 4:1-4; 5:1-5; 8:1-27; 9:1-5; 14:17-18; 15:8-30; 1 Cor. 2:1-15; 3:16-23; 6:9-19; 7:22-24, 40; 12:1-29; 2 Cor. 1:18-23; 3:3-18; 5: 1-10; 6:1-18; 13:14; Gal. 3:1-11; 4:7; 5:16-26; 6:2-8; Eph. 1:3-21; 4:3-32; 5:1-21, 6:6-24; Phil. 1:1-19; 2:1-11; Col. 1:3-8; 1 Thess. 1:1-10; 4:1-18; 5:9-28; 2 Thess. 2:13-17; 1 Tim. 3:15-17; 4:1-10; 2 Tim. 1:6-14; Titus 3:4-7; Heb. 2:1-14; 3:1-12; 6:1-6; 9:6-14; 10:10-18, 26-31.
5. The General Epistles: 1 Pet. 1:1-4, 10-25; 3:15-22; 4:13-19; 2 Pet. 1:16-21; 1 John 3:23-24; 4:2-3, 12-16; 5:5-11; Jude 20-21.
6. The Revelation: Rev. 1:4-6, 9-10; 3:1-13, 21-22; 4:1-3; 5:1-10; 11:3-13; 14:12-13; 19:1-10; 22:16-21.
Thus the whole Bible abundantly proves that there are three separate persons in the Godhead, or in the "one Lord" and "one God" or Deity; that these three are in absolute unity and "are one" as believers are supposed to be (John 17:11, 21-23); and that all three persons have their proper place in the creation and redemption of all things, and to each we owe honor and respect in all our worship and service to the Godhead.

MatthewDiscipleofGod

1st September 2002, 10:51 AM

How come some people just don't want to believe there is a trinity even after all the proof?!?!?! Just call them mistranlations and ignore the other 100 verses that prove there is a trinity. How can they not see there is a problem that they have to that to try that hard to prove their case?

ansarthemystic

1st September 2002, 03:11 PM

Project 86,

it's b/c the masoretic text has no trinitarian verses, and ALL the NT verses are later additions put in by the Church to support the trinitarian doctrine arrived at at the Council of Nicaea AD 325. They are all fabrications. ALL of them!They Are all ad hoc interpolations. ALL of them!

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom aleykom

franklin

1st September 2002, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by Project 86
How come some people just don't want to believe there is a trinity even after all the proof?!?!?! Just call them mistranlations and ignore the other 100 verses that prove there is a trinity. How can they not see there is a problem that they have to that to try that hard to prove their case?

What proof is there in the scriptures that God is a trinity? Jesus didn't even teach it! Can you show proof that He taught it? You can't even show proof that Paul or any of the other inspired writers in the NT wrote anything or taught it! Those who oppose the trinity don't even have to try that hard to disprove the trinity, the scriptures alone disprove it everytime. The scriptures are emphatically clear that it has always held to the teaching of only one God. Despite the simplicity of this message and the clarity with which the Bible presents it, many who believe in the existence of God have not understood it.

Lost

1st September 2002, 11:27 PM

Quote: "Previously posted by OS: Since you claim that Hebrew chap. 1, relies on falsely translated scriptures perhaps you can tell us how the Qumran and Dead Sea Scrolls record these passages."

Newbie question: What did OldShepherd mean by OS?   OP=original poster. :confused:

 :idea:  Got it!...OS=OldShepherd 

 

franklin

3rd September 2002, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by hobart schmedly
There are over 500 plain scriptures that refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as being THREE SEPARATE AND DISTINCT PERSONS, each with His own personal body, soul, and spirit in the sense that all other persons have them.

Hobart, you don't like being brief in your posts ey?  ;)  I realize you listed a multitude of passages of scripture but non of what you posted has anything to do with explaining the trinity or God consisting of three persons!  The scripture is clear about the oneness of God throughout the OT & NT.  The first scriptural principle to be considered, when approaching the matter from a scriptural point of view, is the oneness of God. God is constantly, repeatedly, and emphatically stated to be ONE, never three. There is never a word anywhere in the scripture from beginning to end about such Greek metaphysics as "Three persons in the Godhead" or any such language.

Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

I can probably give you a long list of scripture on the oneness of God but I will spare you of that.  You can get out your sword yourself and look them up. 

OldShepherd

5th September 2002, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by franklin
What proof is there in the scriptures that God is a trinity? Jesus didn't even teach it! Can you show proof that He taught it? You can't even show proof that Paul or any of the other inspired writers in the NT wrote anything or taught it! Those who oppose the trinity don't even have to try that hard to disprove the trinity, the scriptures alone disprove it everytime. The scriptures are emphatically clear that it has always held to the teaching of only one God. Despite the simplicity of this message and the clarity with which the Bible presents it, many who believe in the existence of God have not understood it.

”What proof is there in the scriptures that God is a trinity?” Answer: 1 John 5:7! And before you even think about arguing that this verse was “inserted”, in the text, in the sixteenth century, by Erasmus, read my very next post.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Greek word translated three is treiV and the Greek word translated one is en. treiV - en/ three-one. There are two related English words which express the concept, “three are one”, of 1 John 5:7, triune and trinity.

Perhaps the favorite argument of Unitarians and “Oneness” is, “The word ‘Trinity’ is not in the Bible!” But neither are many words used by anti-Trinitarians to express their theology. For example, even the words “Unitarian” and “Oneness” are not in the Bible. The words “manifestation”, “office”, “function”, “role” and “attribute”, used to describe the relationship of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and many others not in the Bible.

Lost Sheep

I am not ignoring you. But I am having an extremely hard time accessing this forum. You are correct it is the abbreviation of Old Shepherd

Lost

5th September 2002, 07:41 AM

Quote:  Posted by OS:  I am not ignoring you. But I am having an extremely hard time accessing this forum. You are correct it is the abbreviation of Old Shepherd

No problem!  I am getting very good at figuring out a lot of things for myself lately.  Thank you for your answer. :pink:

franklin

5th September 2002, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by OldShepherd
”What proof is there in the scriptures that God is a trinity?” Answer: 1 John 5:7And before you even think about arguing that this verse was “inserted”, in the text, in the sixteenth century, by Erasmus, read my very next post.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

OS, I know, this is the usual trinitarians "silver bullet" that they keep clinging to in order to try and prove their theory that God is 3 in one. Brother, I won't even use the argument about the word "trinity" not being found in scripture! The concept isn't even there!  Let alone the word!  As for the "oneness" of God?  Now, for your silver bullet.... It has been suggested that 1John 5:7 was designed to put to rest the debate concerning the doctrine of the trinity. Yet I think it would be safe to say that this verse would not have needed to be inserted into the Bible by any man if the doctrine were correct, because the bible would teach this doctrine clearly, and surely if it were true then Jesus himself would have taught it! But Jesus didn't teach this doctrine, on the contrary he actually taught us that his Father is his God and our God.  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)
 

Hector Medina

5th September 2002, 10:24 AM

Yes,

I guess they just have their own wierd way of living the gospel.
The same goes with Catholics,Mormons,Jehovah's Witnesses,etc......

;)

In Christ,

-Hector

Sky

5th September 2002, 10:31 AM

Hector,

Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians.

websitejack

5th September 2002, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by edpobre

Worshiping Jesus does NOT make him God because it was God who COMMANDS that we worship Jesus

Ed,

It is because the Father commanded that Jesus be worshipped that reveals his deity!!

None other than God is to be worshipped, as established by scripture:

Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me

Exodus 34:14 -- for you shall not worship any other god , for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God -- (NASB)

And yet Jesus is CONSTANTLY worshipped AND accepted it.

Matt. 2:2, 8, 11 Wisemen at Jesus' birth
Matt. 8:2 - the leper He healed
Matt. 9:18 - the ruler
Matt. 14:33 the apostles after He walked on water.
Matt. 15:25 - Canaanite woman
Matt. 20:20 - mother of James & John
Matt. 28:9 - the disciples
Matt. 28:17 - the apostles
Luke 24:51-52 - the Apostles at the ascension.
John 9:38 - the blind man he healed

If Jesus is a created being, then not only would this be idolaltry, but idolaltry condoned...commanded by...God.

But again scripture shows that Jesus is not a created being, but the Creator:

Jn 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made .

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him .

Angels are NOT to be worshipped -

And I, John, saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. (9) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it no; for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren, the prophets, and of them who keep the words of this book. Worship God. - Revelation 22:8-9

Men are NOT to be worshipped -
Peter refused - Acts 10:25-26
Paul refused - Acts 14:11-15

Only God can receive worship. Jesus is worshipped. Jesus is God.

websitejack

Phoenix

5th September 2002, 02:23 PM

I think i asked this question on page one .. who is the Holy Spirit ?

OldShepherd

6th September 2002, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by franklin
OS, I know, this is the usual trinitarians "silver bullet" that they keep clinging to in order to try and prove their theory that God is 3 in one. Brother, I won't even use the argument about the word "trinity" not being found in scripture! The concept isn't even there!  Let alone the word!  As for the "oneness" of God?  I agree that word might not be there either, but the concept speaks loud and clear! Just get out your sword and look em up!  Now, for your silver bullet.... It has been suggested that 1John 5:7 was designed to put to rest the debate concerning the doctrine of the trinity. Yet I think it would be safe to say that this verse would not have needed to be inserted into the Bible by any man if the doctrine were correct, because the bible would teach this doctrine clearly, and surely if it were true then Jesus himself would have taught it! But Jesus didn't teach this doctrine, on the contrary he actually taught us that his Father is his God and our God.  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)
 

"if it were true then Jesus himself would have taught it!"

Please show me where this is stated in the Bible?

franklin

6th September 2002, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by OldShepherd
"if it were true then Jesus himself would have taught it!" Please show me where this is stated in the Bible?

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17) Taken from previous post 

God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The epistles always refer to God as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Keep in mind that in the Old Testament, the people of Israel called God "God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob."
Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

Romans 15:6, "That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Corinthians 1:3, "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;"

Ephesians 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:"

1 Peter 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

Christ never considering Himself as equal with God:

Revelation 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him (Jesus), to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" Revelation 1:6, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Revelation 3:12, "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Compare Revelation 3:5 with:

1 Timothy 5:21, "I charge thee before God (#1), and the Lord Jesus Christ (#2), and the elect angels (#3), that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality."

Get the picture OS?  Any questions? Or if you can show me where Jesus teaches the trinity, by all means, be my guest. As you can see, I barely touched the surface! 

  

  

isshinwhat

6th September 2002, 11:15 PM

Franklin wrote: You can't even show proof that Paul or any of the other inspired writers in the NT wrote anything or taught it!

ansarthemystic wrote:

ALL the NT verses are later additions put in by the Church to support the trinitarian doctrine arrived at at the Council of Nicaea AD 325. They are all fabrications. ALL of them!

Here are a few quotes from some Early Christians. Each comes from at least 150 years before Nicea, and yet each one clearly puts forth that Christ is God. In the case of Ignatius, we have a wonderful witness, as he was ordained by the Apostle Peter, and was a disciple of the Apostle John. His writings give us an unparalleled glimpse into the Apostolic belief.

"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin "
Ignatius of Antioch,To the Ephesians,7(A.D. 110)

"For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God."
Justin Martyr,Dialogue with Trypho,121(A.D. 155)

"We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man."
Tatian the Syrian,Oration Against the Greeks,21(c.A.D.175)

God Bless,

Neal

Gerry

6th September 2002, 11:22 PM

LOL I am grateful for this thread. When I get a little discouraged or maybe just need a little "pick-me-up" I love to pop in here and read a few threads. I usually go away with a smile good for at least a week before it begins to wear off. Some of the thoughts of the non-Christians!!! lololol

Gunny

6th September 2002, 11:44 PM

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/t10.html

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/trinity.shtml

http://www.bible.ca/H-trinity.htm

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/trinbibov.html

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/proper/trinity.htm

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/60_questions_for_the_christians_part1.html

Gunny

6th September 2002, 11:46 PM

franklin

6th September 2002, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by Gerry
LOL I am grateful for this thread. When I get a little discouraged or maybe just need a little "pick-me-up" I love to pop in here and read a few threads. I usually go away with a smile good for at least a week before it begins to wear off. Some of the thoughts of the non-Christians!!! lololol

Well gerry, if all you could come up with in your posts is your little "LOL's and cute little remarks we would appreciate it if you wouldn't post at all.  Unless you have something to contribute in the form of serious discussion! The last I checked trolling isn't allowed in these forums or maybe you haven't read the rules yet?  I suppose that laughing at non believers is your way of leading them to salvation too? Do you laugh at them (LOL) when they ask you questions about the bible?  Is that what you do when you take your group out on a witnessing mission?  I personally would appreciate it if you would refrain from coming into a thread for the only purpose of "poping in" for a laugh or whatever.  If you want to engage in serious discussion, we welcome your thoughts.

Cheers

FR

SCJ

6th September 2002, 11:53 PM

Hey, how are you doing the Hebrew?

cougan

6th September 2002, 11:56 PM

Franklin I have not read the entire post just the last couple of pages. Before I enter into this discussion I want you to bring me up to speed. Do you claim that Jesus was created? If so when? Are you saying that Jesus is not deity? From what I have read so far the discussion seems to be concetrated on Jesus but I would also like to know what you think the HS is. Do you think its just a active force of God? This will help me greatly to know what I need to post about if you will answer these questions.

Thanks

Gerry

6th September 2002, 11:58 PM

Oh Dear Me Franklin. I am so sorry I have done you wrong. You must forgive my ineptness. I will go and leave you to teach Bible and set a Christian example to the non-believers in this forum. I am sure if you need my help you will let me know, eh?

OldShepherd

7th September 2002, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by franklin
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17) Taken from previous post

* snip*
Get the picture OS?  Any questions? Or if you can show me where Jesus teaches the trinity, by all means, be my guest. As you can see, I barely touched the surface! 
 [/color] 
  

You did not answer my question. "If it were true then Jesus himself would have taught it!" Where does Jesus or anyone else in the Bible state or imply that if Jesus did not mention a specific, thought, idea, on concept it is not true? Hoo boy looks like we are going to have a fun time, "silver bullet" "Get the picture."

It is often said that the Trinity is a pagan concept. The only place an actual Trinity, i.e. Triunity, one God manifest in three persons can be found is pre-Christian Judaism. And my source is the Jewish Encyclopedia.
The Cabala, on the other hand, especially the Zohar, its fundamental work, was far less hostile to the dogma of the Trinity, since by its speculations regarding the father, the son, and the spirit it evolved a new trinity, and thus became dangerous to Judaism. Such terms as ‘matronita,’ ‘body’, ‘spirit’ occur frequently (e.g. ‘Tazria,’ ed. Polna iii, 43b); so that Christians and converts like Knorr von Rosenroth, Reuchlin, and Rittangel found in the Zohar a confirmation of Christianity and especially the dogma of the Trinity (Jellinck, ‘Die Kabbalah’ p. 250, Leipsic, 1844 {transl. of Franck’s ‘La Kabbale,’ Paris 1843}) Reuchlin sought on the basis of the Cabala the words ‘Father, Son, and Holy Ghost’ in the second word in the Pentateuch, as well as in Ps. cxviii, 22 (ib. p. 10) while Johann Kemper, a convert , left in manuscript a work en[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]led ‘Matteh Mosheh,’ which treats in its third section of the harmony of the Zohar with its doctrine of the Trinity (Zettersteen, ‘Verzeichniss der Hebraeischen und Armamaeischen Handschriften zu Upsala.’ P. 16, Lund, 1900). The study of the Cabala led the Frankists to adopt Christianity, but the Jews have always regarded the doctrine of the Trinity as one irreconcilable with the spirit of the Jewish religion and its monotheism.

Isadore Singer ed., The Jewish Encyclopedia , KTAV Publishing, 1901, vol. 12, p. 261.

“But orthodox Judaism rejected the Trinity!” They certainly did! And those same orthodox Jews were main players in the murder of Jesus and rejected Jesus, as the Messiah, even to the point of calling him a b#stard, in the Talmud. So if we are going to use orthodox Judaism as a criteria then we also have to reject Jesus, as well.

TheBear

7th September 2002, 12:16 AM

In the begining, was who? And, who was God? Through whom were all things created? And who became flesh and dwelt among us?

TheBear

7th September 2002, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by franklin
Well gerry, if all you could come up with in your posts is your little "LOL's and cute little remarks we would appreciate it if you wouldn't post at all.  Unless you have something to contribute in the form of serious discussion! The last I checked trolling isn't allowed in these forums or maybe you haven't read the rules yet?  I suppose that laughing at non believers is your way of leading them to salvation too? Do you laugh at them (LOL) when they ask you questions about the bible?  Is that what you do when you take your group out on a witnessing mission?  I personally would appreciate it if you would refrain from coming into a thread for the only purpose of "poping in" for a laugh or whatever.  If you want to engage in serious discussion, we welcome your thoughts.

Cheers

FR

Actually, Gerry is not in any violation of forum rules with that post. ;)

Rule #2: No Trolling

You will not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. This will include any new user with less than 50 posts starting a "discretionable" topic - i.e. a topic not suitable for children. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site), or posts that put down another Christian group or denomination. This includes links to websites in profiles and signatures.

John

OldShepherd

7th September 2002, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by SCJ
Hey, how are you doing the Hebrew?
”Are you talking to me?” Robert De Niro , Taxi Driver There are two ways, One, using the ISO numbers. Hebrew is 1488 aleph א to 1514 Tau ת. Preface each number with &# and ; at the end of each number. Enter number from left to right, e.g. for Yeshua yod-shin-waw-ayin, 1497-1513-1493-1506, the system will reverse them and print ayin-waw-shin-yod ישוע. I recommend using (size=3), notice how small the letters are compared to ישוע.

The other way is use (font=bwhebl), most windows PCs have this font, type the appropriate character from the keyboard. End the font with (/font), replace ( with square brackets. If I do that everything between the Vb codes “font=” and “/font” will be Hebrew.

Greek ISO numbers are in the 900 range. The Vb code for Greek is (font=symbol) most PCs have that font. E.g. IesouV. Place font codes closest to the text, and size and other codes outside the font codes.

OldShepherd

7th September 2002, 06:58 AM

Comments on the Trinity foreshadowed in the Old Testament.

Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

In this passage the (1) LORD who laid the foundation of the earth, who was from the time of the beginning, speaks, “and now (2) the Lord GOD, and (3) his Spirit, hath sent me.” One LORD GOD sent a second LORD and his Spirit!

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

The (1) LORD rained down fire from the (2) LORD, out of heaven.

I can already see the argument. “Well, that only means the LORD sent himself or the LORD sent down fire from himself, etc., etc.” The Trinity interpretation, and my belief, is that these verses, as do all scriptures, mean exactly what they say. Unless God or one of the Biblical writers specifically states elsewhere that it has another, figurative, spiritual, etc. meaning. And I know that there is no other verse of scripture, which addresses these two passages specifically.

Did Moses and Isaiah make a mistake when they wrote these verses? Did they mean something else? As can be seen from the passages, below, both Moses and Isaiah, and other Bible writers, wrote the “LORD/God himself/myself”, many times. So unless we have clear and convincing proof we must accept that these verses, inspired by God, mean exactly what they say. Had Moses or Isaiah intended to say “God himself” they would have done so, as they did in many other places.

1 Sa 3:21 And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD

It does not say, “the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by “his word!” As can be seen by the several verses I have quoted, below, and there are many others, Moses, Isaiah, and the other writers, often speak of the LORD and his word. Therefore, unless there is a mistake in God’s word, we must accept this as stating that the LORD, of “the word of the LORD” is somehow distinct from the LORD who is revealed. Do I need to point out that the Trinity interpretation, and mine, is it means exactly what it says.

“2. God Is At Least Two Elohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities.
As if to even make the case for plurality stronger, there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is:

Psalm 45:7-8 "Thy throne, which is of God, shall stand for ever and ever: The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.
A second example is:

Hosea 1:7 "But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by Jehovah their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses nor by horsemen."

So the Targum (Aramaic translation), “and I will save them by the Word of the Lord their God;''

The speaker is Elohim who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of Jehovah, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is:

Genesis 19:24 "Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven."

Clearly we have Jehovah number one raining fire and brimstone from a second Jehovah who is in heaven, the first one being on earth. A second example is:

Zechariah 1:17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

“the LORD of hosts” refers to the cities of Israel as “My cities”, in the first person, but speaking in the third person says “the LORD” somehow distinct from Himself, shall comfort Zion. He does not say “I will yet comfort Zion.”

Zech 2:8-9 "For thus saith Jehovah of Hosts; for your glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you; for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake my hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts hath sent me."

Again we have one Jehovah sending another Jehovah to perform a specific task. The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton ("Personal Name of God of Israel," written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants י ה ו ה/YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was 'Adonai' ('the Lord'), itself later replaced by 'ha-Shem' ('the Name'). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of 'Adonai.' Encyclopedia Dictionary of Judaica Page 593) and wrote:

"Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit." (Zohar, Vol. III, pg 288, Vol. II, pg. 43)”

http://www.familybiblestudy.net/b2_s10_c2.htm

Am 6:8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by himself, saith the LORD the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein.

One, “The LORD the God of hosts” is speaking about a second, “The Lord GOD” in the third person, somehow distinct from Himself.

De 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself , above all the nations that are upon the earth.

De 28:9 The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself , as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.

De 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

Jos 22:23 That we have built us an altar to turn from following the LORD, or if to offer thereon burnt offering or meat offering, or if to offer peace off