December 25th, the revolution begins

[TomUK]

I've just seen this poster by the Churches advertising network ready for Christmas in Britain. What are peoples thoughts, as i'm not sure. I've liked some of their past work but i don't know about this. If it does the job i suppose...

http://www.churchads.org.uk/Images/babychae2005.jpg

[PaladinValer]

That's really, really pushing it...

[pmcleanj]

The Gerber baby, a revolutionary leader? :scratch: Colour me confused.

I doubt it will 'work'. I think the crowd who automatically leap to associating the babyface with Christ aren't going to recognize the Che Guevera reference, and the Che afficionado's are going to do a double take and wonder what the Gerber baby has in common.

Doesn't do a thing for me, anyway.

[holyshe]

it is no good in my opinion most people dont even know must about jesus let alone hidden meanings

a poster should just read "come to church and witness the miracle of god"

[benedictine]

A neighboring church has a poster that says: "Free Coffee. Eternal Life. Yes, membership has its advantages."

[Fish and Bread]

A neighboring church has a poster that says: "Free Coffee. Eternal Life.

That should be ECUSA's slogan. :)

John

[SirTimothy]

Interesting. That's all I'll say. :)

Timothy

[karen freeinchristman]

I don't like it, personally.

[Bonifatius]

Referring to Christ as "Hero" - not my cup o' tea, I'm afraid.

Boni

[Lel]

All I can say is that I'd be scared to see church marketing/advertising budgets anymore.

[gitlance]

We wouldn't need to advertise if we would all live as we ought...

[gtsecc]

If you really want to bring people to Christ
- what is wrong with an English Boys choir, incense, vestments, and chanting?

Why do people think they can dress the bride of Christ is some trash and attract more people?

[Naomi4Christ]

I quite like that poster. It makes you stop and think, and thinking is a good thing! You don't immediately say 'booooorrrrrinnnnnggggg!'

[gitlance]

If you really want to bring people to Christ
- what is wrong with an English Boys choir, incense, vestments, and chanting?

Why do people think they can dress the bride of Christ is some trash and attract more people?

My feelings exactly. If we, as Catholics, would do things correctly and live as we ought, we would have more converts than we could maintain.

[Naomi4Christ]

Yeah, boys choirs and incense are going to attract the playstation and football generation. Why didn't I think of it?

[gitlance]

Yeah, boys choirs and incense are going to attract the playstation and football generation. Why didn't I think of it?

We are the Holy Catholic Church. We do NOT conform to the world. The world is to conform to us. The minute we cater to the world and its interests is the minute we lose our claim as Catholic and as Christians. It doesn't matter if more people like the playstation and football... we have a truth to maintain, and we will do so no matter how many people it offends or makes uncomfortable. We welcome all, but we will not conform to the image of the world.

[TomUK]

While we do have a "truth to maintain", we also have a gospel to proclaim. (like my little rhyme there? ;) ) While i don't really like that poster, if it can bring even one person to Christ then that can only be a good thing.

[pmcleanj]

While i don't really like that poster, if it can bring even one person to Christ then that can only be a good thing.

Would it not be equally true to state that if it sets up a stumbling block for even one person, then that can only be a bad thing?

Or if it diverts resources from an effort that might be more effective -- perhaps bring two persons to Christ instead of one -- that its good is perhaps ambiguous at best?

It may very well do more good than harm. I think it's silly, but not offensive or dangerous. But I also think we can and should bring our talents of critical thinking to efforts like this -- preferably before, rather than after, we expend our resources on them. Alas, there is probably no way to know whether this kind of thing does actually 'do the job'. I wonder what the Churches Advertising Network uses to assess demographi affectiveness.

[Naomi4Christ]

We are the Holy Catholic Church. We do NOT conform to the world. The world is to conform to us. The minute we cater to the world and its interests is the minute we lose our claim as Catholic and as Christians. It doesn't matter if more people like the playstation and football... we have a truth to maintain, and we will do so no matter how many people it offends or makes uncomfortable. We welcome all, but we will not conform to the image of the world.

The central message never changes, but how we communicate that message has to be meaningful to the people - if you look at how the early church developed, the presentation of the gospel altered to suit the differing culture in each area. Choir boys and incense are not part of 'the truth' - they are not important to the message at all - indeed, they are among the things that put people off church.

The poster communicates a message and it is eye-catching enough for passers-by to actually stop and read it. We have to recognise that attention spans nowadays are very small and we have to get our message across before they move on to something they feel is more exciting and gratifying. They key thing is to get people into a church activity (not necessarily a service) and once they are there (feeling welcome and making friends), you can start to share the good news.

Remember that Jesus was pretty radical himself. He never let the traditions of the temple get in his way.

[karen freeinchristman]

The central message never changes, but how we communicate that message has to be meaningful to the people - if you look at how the early church developed, the presentation of the gospel altered to suit the differing culture in each area. Choir boys and incense are not part of 'the truth' - they are not important to the message at all - indeed, they are among the things that put people off church.

The poster communicates a message and it is eye-catching enough for passers-by to actually stop and read it. We have to recognise that attention spans nowadays are very small and we have to get our message across before they move on to something they feel is more exciting and gratifying. They key thing is to get people into a church activity (not necessarily a service) and once they are there (feeling welcome and making friends), you can start to share the good news.

Remember that Jesus was pretty radical himself. He never let the traditions of the temple get in his way.

I agree with this assessment. Even though I don't find the advertisement attractive, we do need to use contemporary strategies for this generation. I wonder if the people who think that incense and choirs are attractive to this generation (in general) have ever worked with un-churched youth?

[Naomi4Christ]

I wonder if the people who think that incense and choirs are attractive to this generation (in general) have ever worked with un-churched youth?

Indeed!

[gitlance]

We can evangelize in a way that will reach them without giving up our traditions (such as incense and choir boys). Afterall, historically a beauty of corporate worship has characterized the Anglican church. Anybody can go get a feel good message from Joel Osteen, but the Anglican Church has a strong heritage which should not just be abandoned. The heritage should be kept while also finding additional ways to reach people. That is what the early Church did. They did not do away with traditions and customs to win people. Instead, they won people on the streets, and then gradually acclamated them to the life of the Church. Should we be no different?

[Naomi4Christ]

Some of us don't have incense and choir boys to begin with! They are not our tradition.

They are nothing but packaging. It's not good to worry about packaging and miss what the real message is.

[SirTimothy]

We can evangelize in a way that will reach them without giving up our traditions (such as incense and choir boys). Afterall, historically a beauty of corporate worship has characterized the Anglican church. Anybody can go get a feel good message from Joel Osteen, but the Anglican Church has a strong heritage which should not just be abandoned. The heritage should be kept while also finding additional ways to reach people. That is what the early Church did. They did not do away with traditions and customs to win people. Instead, they won people on the streets, and then gradually acclamated them to the life of the Church. Should we be no different?

Most of us in the Anglican church don't use incense. Don't have much of a choir, if any. They're very high church affectations, really. Those of us who are low-church are hard-core about the gospel, and I think that shows in the services which are gospel-oriented, rather than smells and bells oriented. Worship is nothing to do with what we do, it's about worship in the heart. If you find choristers and incense helpful... bully for you. Some people find it distracting from their personal worship.

Timothy

[Lel]

Tradition for those who respond to tradition, and no tradition for those who are distracted by tradition. Adaptation -- now THAT'S Anglican! ;)

[SirTimothy]

Tradition for those who respond to tradition, and no tradition for those who are distracted by tradition. Adaptation -- now THAT'S Anglican!

EXACTLY!

Timothy

[holyshe]

i think incense and choir and alter boys and cross bearers and the whole deal is what makes the church what it is......
for if you dont have them why not just have it in a room and place a sign at the door saying come in for a chat.....

i think the above makes the whole service come alive it makes gods presence felt more so than with out.
choirs are great for the young and old who have great voices to sing to god with them...it is soul moving.

i think each of the above is important. i think the first and foremost is scripture and the word of jesus and god reaching everyone but the above is what differs church from a school hall or mothers meeting room....

i think it is great.

[Lel]

i think incense and choir and alter boys and cross bearers and the whole deal is what makes the church what it is......
for if you dont have them why not just have it in a room and place a sign at the door saying come in for a chat.....

I think you could take all that away, but if you have Scripture, it's still a church.

i think the above makes the whole service come alive it makes gods presence felt more so than with out.
choirs are great for the young and old who have great voices to sing to god with them...it is soul moving.

i think each of the above is important. i think the first and foremost is scripture and the word of jesus and god reaching everyone but the above is what differs church from a school hall or mothers meeting room....

i think it is great.

That's great for you, I think then it's best that you go to a church that has all that. :) But I agree that first and foremost is Scripture, and so, even if there are no choirs (which I don't like anyway) or incense or bells or candles, as long as there is Scripture, God is there, and loving us. :)

[Fish and Bread]

Technically, is scripture even necessary? The earliest Christians didn't always have even the Old Testament on hand and the New Testament had yet to be written. It seems to me that a Christian Church exists anywhere anyone studies, prays, and breaks break in Jesus' name. There are a lot of other things a church *should* have, but Jesus is there whenever two or more gather in his name. :)

John

[Finella]

I think you could take all that away, but if you have Scripture, it's still a church. I thought the church was the people in it? Hmmm... maybe that's simplistic, too.

That's great for you, I think then it's best that you go to a church that has all that. :) But I agree that first and foremost is Scripture, and so, even if there are no choirs (which I don't like anyway) or incense or bells or candles, as long as there is Scripture, God is there, and loving us. :)
Don't forget, the music we now associate with choir boys at one time was the funkiest, most radical music of its day. :D

[Naomi4Christ]

Whether a rule book says you should have scripture or not, you have to have it. It's the basis of our faith and the main place where we learn about the nature of God and about what God wants us to do.

[SirTimothy]

Don't forget, the music we now associate with choir boys at one time was the funkiest, most radical music of its day.

Very true. The church went almost to schism over whether organs were allowed... now the high churchers want organs all the time... we've got a dire organ that's out of tune at St. H's, and I'd MUCH prefer a piano.

Timothy

[AveMaria]

That's..uh...quite a poster. Not my cup of tea, to say the least.

I emailed it to a few unchurched Generation X friends and coworkers, to get their reaction, which were ranged from "That's hysterical, I'd hang that up in my bathroom for a laugh... but it won't get me to church" to "Huh?"

I really dislike the idea that the church has to become an X-box. :sigh:

(Help, I'm too young and liberal to be an old fogey!)

[Naomi4Christ]

I must admit, I get a little uneasy when I think of obsession with choir boys :cool:

I don't think many ordinary churches have choristers anyway, do they? It seems to be something associated with Cathedrals and their associated boarding school.

Our church choir is made of old ladies and a few old gents (with hearing aids!).

[pmcleanj]

No-one was discussing obsessions with choir-boys. That puts a tawdry spin
on someone else's worship practices.

[Naomi4Christ]

bruvva

oh, and note the smilie.