How Many Times Should We Forgive?

[Fish and Bread]

I noticed the NRSV version of the lectionary yesterday quoted Jesus as saying we should forgive not seven times, but seventy-seven times. Traditionally, what NRSV translates as seventy-seven has actually been translated as seventy *times* seven. So, which is it? Should we forgive people 490 times or only 77? This is a pressing concern because I have to decide whether I need to forgive someone I know for the 78th time or not! ;)

That last sentence was an intentional misunderstanding meant for humerous effect, but I am genuinely curious about the factors that lead to this new way of translating the number Jesus used and which way of translating it is correct. :) Does anyone know anything about it?

John

[Philip]

I have never seen it translated 77. 'Seventy sevens' is how it reads, but the word used for 'seventy' is hebdomēkontakis, not hebdomēkonta. The latter is the primary number 70. The former is an adverbial form of the number 70, indicating that it modifyies the seven. This is not how the number 77 is constructed.

[AngCath]

the intended effect is the same regardless: forgive as many times as someone sins.

[svdbygrace]

the intended effect is the same regardless: forgive as many times as someone sins.

I heard a very good sermon on this yesterday (on "America at Worship" on the Hallmark Channel) by the Minister at Marble Church in NYC. He explained that what Jesus was meaning was that it didn't really matter how many times the person sins, we should forgive them every time.

I am so thankful that God shows us how to do this! :) :clap:

[Tetzel]

As much as you would have God forgive you

[The Lord is my banner]

Matt. 18:21,22
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

At this time the Jews were traditionally taught they should forgive three times. Peter considered himself generous to the extreme in offering to forgive as many as seven times, and so Jesus blows him right out of the water with this statement!

Jesus is really using this number as an illustration of perfect and infinite forgiveness, not being exact and counting the occasions, which would have been legalistic rather than full of grace.

God bless, love Sue

[SeenAndUnseen]

As much as you would have God forgive you

:amen:

It's scary to think of it that way, but it's a theme that comes up again and again in scripture. We may be judged according to how we judge others one day, and treated according to how we have treated others. Not always pleasant to consider, but very true.

I wonder though, are we to forgive those who have not asked to be forgiven? Can anyone without a burdened conscience benefit from forgiveness?

[holyshe]

i dont believe you can forgive someone who doesn't feel sorry for what they have done!
as i think your forgiveness is pointless!
take a child molester/murderer/thief ect... if he/she is truly sorry for what he/she has done then yes i think you could forgive them but if they are not sorry how could you forgive someone who doesn't see what they have done is wrong????

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

I don't recall Jesus putting that caveat into the Lord's Prayer. He just says "as we forgive those who trespass against us" - no "as long as they are sorry".

[holyshe]

you opinion does not agree with mine!

which is fair enough
i just think someone can't give forgiveness if the person who needs it does not ask for it. and if they are not sorry they would not ask for forgiveness.

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

One can forgive without being asked. Forgiveness as referred to here is a matter of not holding a grudge and nursing a desire or feeling of entitlement to revenge.

[holyshe]

ok i respectfully acknowledge you answer

xxx

[svdbygrace]

I think that God cared so much to die for our sins and thus offer forgiveness for us. We didn't ask him to die for us (and at that point we hadn't asked for forgiveness). He died in our place, for our sins. Finally when we come to him and ask for that forgiveness... he simply says you are already forgiven (since he died on the Cross for the remission of sin). He has already forgave us, we just have to accept the forgiveness he is offering.

When someone sins against us, what should we do? Should would not forgive them, forgive them later... or do as Christ did on the cross? "Father forgive them, they know not what they do". We are also told that if we forgive, we will be forgiven. If we do not forgive "men their tresspasses" then our heavenly Father will not forgive ours.

When Jesus told Peter to forgive that many times I also think he was saying to Peter, "hey, how many times have I already had to forgive you? How about John or Judas over there? Then how can you say only three times... it's more like 70 times 7, the times just keep growing... forgiveness is a everlasting thing, you know everytime it happens." (My narrative, of course! lol).

This is a favorite topic of mine, I love seeing what everyone thinks about this (as i'm not 100% right all the time! :( ;) ). :)

[holyshe]

to error is human to forgive is devine

[Ponder]

people people
let get this right here
wat i think Jesus was meaning was
that we should not stop forgiving
as if you can remember 77 or 70*7(490) for that matter
i think he refering that we are allways forgive as so we too should always forgive.
PERIOD
plus i know that i have probly been forgive by god 70*70*70*70* and so on the count is totally endless.
so too should our forgiveness of other people..
Cheers Ponder

[holyshe]

i think forgiving i mean really forgiving someone is hard but if you achieve it then god bless your soul xxx

[Zacharias]

Some good verses...

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (RSV)

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; (RSV)

Matthew 6:15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (RSV)

Luke 6:37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; (RSV)

Matthew 18:32-34 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart. (RSV)

[ContraMundum]

Being forgiving is a sign of godliness.

We should always forgive, and always be ready to forgive.

Jesus' words are meant to point to a principle of life, a way of living, not a prescription for some legalist dogma on the amount of times one must forgive another. I guess we all agree on that.

[SirTimothy]

to error is human to forgive is devine

To err, not to error.

Timothy

[higgs2]

Being forgiving is a sign of godliness.

We should always forgive, and always be ready to forgive.

Jesus' words are meant to point to a principle of life, a way of living, not a prescription for some legalist dogma on the amount of times one must forgive another. I guess we all agree on that.

I certainly agree. :thumbsup:

It's nice to find a topic on which many of us can agree, isn't it!

[Fish and Bread]

I think I'm going to have to watch my attempts at humor from now on! I am well aware that Jesus meant to imply unlimited forgiveness with his statement, but thought it would be funny to ask about forgiving someone for the 78th time. My real question was about the translation, which was simply a matter of curiosity, even though it doesn't change the moral import of the passage. :) One of the earlier responders did answer that question for me, which I appreciate. :)

Anyhow, I definitely agree with higgs and the others who have expressed the notion that it's nice to have something we can all agree upon. Sometimes we get so caught up in arguing about small details, that we miss the fact that we agree on most of the greater truths about Jesus, God, and creation. :)

John

[higgs2]

Being forgiving is a sign of godliness.

We should always forgive, and always be ready to forgive.

Jesus' words are meant to point to a principle of life, a way of living, not a prescription for some legalist dogma on the amount of times one must forgive another. I guess we all agree on that.

I certainly agree. :thumbsup:

It's nice to find a topic on which many of us can agree, isn't it!

[higgs2]

I certainly agree. :thumbsup:

It's nice to find a topic on which many of us can agree, isn't it!
I guess I agree so much that I can't stop posting this!!

I'll try to stop now.

[holyshe]

forgive all and judge none

[Zacharias]

forgive all and judge none
:amen:

[holyshe]

thank you! i guess the best words are the ones many people find common ground in!

[September]

On Sunday, our priest explained that in Judaism, 7 is the number of completeness, wholeness. The number 7 would mean "a whole bunch", and 77 (or 70x7) would be "infinite", as others have already expressed.

[thejesusfish90]

I think that God cared so much to die for our sins and thus offer forgiveness for us. We didn't ask him to die for us (and at that point we hadn't asked for forgiveness). He died in our place, for our sins. Finally when we come to him and ask for that forgiveness... he simply says you are already forgiven (since he died on the Cross for the remission of sin). He has already forgave us, we just have to accept the forgiveness he is offering.

When someone sins against us, what should we do? Should would not forgive them, forgive them later... or do as Christ did on the cross? "Father forgive them, they know not what they do". We are also told that if we forgive, we will be forgiven. If we do not forgive "men their tresspasses" then our heavenly Father will not forgive ours.

When Jesus told Peter to forgive that many times I also think he was saying to Peter, "hey, how many times have I already had to forgive you? How about John or Judas over there? Then how can you say only three times... it's more like 70 times 7, the times just keep growing... forgiveness is a everlasting thing, you know everytime it happens." (My narrative, of course! lol).

This is a favorite topic of mine, I love seeing what everyone thinks about this (as i'm not 100% right all the time! :( ;) ). :)


Awesome!/Amen!... got my stamp of approval on it...:P...


YBIC

Chris