Old Catholic sucession in Anglican lines.. [Archive]

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Aymn27

12th September 2005, 01:40 PM

Does anyone know if there is a place where you can find which OC bishops (and also EO from what I understand ) took part in Anglican consecrations after Rome said Anglican orders were invalid?? Would a person just have to research back from each bishop or is there some sort of historical record that says which lines would be considered valid by Rome? Just curious..

thanks,
Aaron

Father Rick

12th September 2005, 06:53 PM

Unfortunately, you'll probably have to research each bishop...

AND to make it even more difficult, usually a line of succession only shows the principle consecrator and not the co-consecrators, since the co-consecrators are technically there "just in case" there may be a problem with the consecrator's line of succession.

My suggestion, if you want to research this, is to start with the Bonn Agreement in 1936, where the OC's and the AC's came into formal communion with each other. There may have been an 'exchange of lines' that occurred at that point. If not, the first co-consecrations would have probably occurred shortly after that as a show of solidarity.

InnerPhyre

12th September 2005, 08:06 PM

I don't mean for this to sound rude. It's an honest question. Why do you care which lines we consider to be valid?

Aymn27

12th September 2005, 09:21 PM

I don't mean for this to sound rude. It's an honest question. Why do you care which lines we consider to be valid?
LOL..not rude at all..I was just curious...RCs generally tend to make a blanket statement of Anglican orders being invalid. I suspect, and would like to find out, that most are actually valid b/c (especially the Anglo-Catholic ones) those who think apostolic succession is of extreme importance were "re-ordained" by an OC or EO bishop...

Aymn27

12th September 2005, 09:24 PM

Father Rick

12th September 2005, 09:36 PM

Every bishop I know of has a copy of his lines of succession (almost like a genealogy). Usually it just lists the main consecrator, but will sometimes list co-consecrators when it it significant. I'll post my lines here, so you can see a sample of what they look like. I'll actually post 2 different lines so you can see how it really works...

Father Rick

12th September 2005, 09:39 PM

1. The Antiochian Succession (Vilatte Line)

(1) Peter, 38

(2) Evodius 40

(3) Ignatius I, 43

(4) Aaron, 123

(5) Cornelius, 123

(6) Eodos, 142

(7) Theophilus, 145

(8) Maximinus, 171

(9) Seraphim, 179

(10) Astlediaes, 189

(11) Philip, 201

(12) Sebinus {Zebinus}, 219

(13) Babylos, 237

(14) Fabius, 250

(15) Demetrius, 251

(16) Paul I, 259

(17) Domnus I, 270

(18) Timotheus, 281

(19) Cyrilus, 281

(20) Tyrantus, 296

(21) Vitalius, 301

(22) Philognius, 318

(23) Eustachius, 323

(24) Paulinius, 338

(25) Philabianus, 383

(26) Evagrius, 386

(27) Phosohorius, 416

(28) Alexander, 418

(29) John I, 428

(30) Theodotus, 431

(31) Domnus II, 442

(32) Maximus, 450

(33) Accacius, 454

(34) Martyrius, 457

(35) Peter II, 464

(36) Philadius, 500

(37) Serverius, 509

(38) Segius, 544

(39) Domnus III, 547

(40) Anadtasius, 560

(41) Gregory I, 564

(42) Paul II, 567

(43) Patra, 571

(44) Domnus IV, 586

(45) Julianus, 591

(46) Athanasius I, 595

(47) John II, 636

(48) Theodorus I, 649

(49) Severus, 668

(50) Athanasius II, 684

(51) Julianus II, 687

(52) Elias I, 709

(53) Athanasius III 724

(54) Evanius I, 740

(55) Gervasius I, 759

(56) Joseph, 790

(57) Cyriacus, 793

(58) Dionysius I, 818

(59) John III, 847

(60) Ignatius II, 877

(61) Theodosius, 887

(62) Dionysius II 897

(63) John IV, 910

(64) Basilus I, 922

(65) John V, 936

(66) Evanius II, 954

(67) Dionysius III, 958

(68) Abraham I, 962

(69) John VI, 965

(70) Athamasius IV, 987

(71) John VII, 1004

(72) Dionysius IV, 1032

(73) Theodorus II, 1042

(74) Athanasius V, 1058

(75) John VIII, 1064

(76) Basilius II, 1074

(77) Abdoone, 1076

(78) Dionysius V, 1077

(79) Evanius III, 1080

(80) Dionysius VI, 1088

(81) Athanasius VI, 1091

(82) John IX, 1131

(83) Athanasius VII, 1139

(84) Michael I, 1167

(85) Athanasius VIII, 1200

(86) Michael II, 1207

(87) John X, 1208

(88) Ignatius III, 1223

(89) Dionysius VII, 1253

(90) John XI, 1253

(91) Ignatius IV, 1264

(92) Philanus, 1283

(93) Ignatius Baruhid, 1293

(94) Ignatius Ismael, 1333

(95) Ignatius Basilius III, 1366

(96) Ignatius Abraham II, 1382

(97) Ignatius Bacalius IV, 1412

(98) Ignatius Behanam I, 1415

(99) Ignatius Kalejih, 1455

(100) Ignatius John XII, 1483

(101) Ignatius Noah, 1492

(102) Ignatius Jesus I, 1509

(103) Ignatius Jacob I, 1510

(104) Ignatius David I, 1519

(105) Ignatius Abdullah I, 1520

(106) Ignatius Naamathalak, 1557

(107) Ignatius David II, 1577

(108) Ignatius Philathus, 1591

(109) Ignatius Abdullah II, 1597

(110) Ignatius Cadhai, 1598

(111) Ignatius Simeon, 1640

(112) Ignatius Jesus II, 1661

(113) Ignatius Messiah, 1661

(114) Ignatius Cabeeb, 1686

(115) Ignatius Gervasius II, 1687

(116) Ignatius Isaac, 1708

(117) Ignatius Siccarablak, 1722

(118) Ignatius Gervasius III, 1746

(119) Ignatius Gervasius IV, 1768

(120) Ignatius Mathias, 1781

(121) Ignatius Behanam, 1810

(122) Ignatius Jonas, 1817

(123) Ignatius Gervasius V, 1818

(124) Ignatius Elias II, 1839

(125) Ignatius Jacob II, 1847

(126) Mar Ignatius Peter III, 1872.

(127) Paulose Mar Athanasius (Kadavil Kooran) was consecrated on December 4, 1907 by Mar Ignatius Peter III as Syrian Antioch Bishop of Kottayam and Metropolitan of Malabar (India).

(128) Mar Julius I (Antonio Francis Xavier Alvares) was consecrated July 28, 1889, by Paulose Mar Athanasius, under authority of Patriarch Ignatius Peter III to be Archbishop of the Latin Rite Independent Catholic Church of Ceylon, Goa and India.

(129) Joseph Rene Vilatte was consecrated on May 29, 1892 in Columba, Ceylon at Our Lady of Good Death Cathedral by Mar Julius I, under authority of a Bull of Mar Ignatius Peter III, to serve as Archbishop of North America.

(130) Fredrick E. Lloyd, 1915

(131) Samuel Gregory Lines, 1923

(132) Justin Boyle, 1927

(133) Lowel Paul Wadle, 1940

(134) Herman Adrian Spruit, 1957

(260) Paul Michael Clemens, 1998

(262) Joseph Philip Sousa, 1991

(263) Willibrord Johannes Campenhout, 1993

(264)William Dennis Donavan, 1993

(265) Norman Howard Russell, 1995

(266) Paul Hugh Combs, Jr., 2001

(267) Michael G. Nesmith, 2003

Father Rick

12th September 2005, 09:47 PM

2. Roman - Old Catholic Succession

(Arnold Harris Matthew Line)

(1) Peter, 38

(2) Linus, 67

(3) Ancletus {Cletus}, 76

(4) Clement, 88

(5) Evaristus, 97

(6) Alexander I, 105

(7) Sixtus I, 115

(8) Telesphorus, 125

(9) Hygimus, 136

(10) Pius I, 140

(11) Anicetus, 155

(12) Soter, 166

(13) Eleutherius, 175

(14) Victor I, 189

(15) Zephyrinus, 199

(16) Callistus I, 217

(17) Urban I, 222

(18) Pontian, 230

(19) Anterus, 235

(20) Fabian, 236

(21) Cornelius, 251

(22) Lucius I, 253

(23) Stephen I, 254

(24) Sixtus II, 257

(25) Dionysius, 259

(26) Felix I, 269

(27) Eutychian, 275

(28) Caius, 283

(29) Marcellinus, 296

(30) Marcellus I, 308

(31) Eucebius, 309

(32) Melchiades {Miltiades}, 311

(33) Sylvester I, 314

(34) Marcus, 336

(35) Julius I, 337

(36) Liberius, 352 Liberius was expelled from Rome by the Arian Emperor Constantius, during his absence, the See of Rome was held by Felix II, who resigned upon the return of Liberius from his two year exile.

(37) Damasus I, 366

(38) Siricius, 384

(39) Anastasius I, 399

(40) Innocent I, 401

(41) Zosimus, 417

(42) Boniface I, 418

(43) Celestine I, 422

(44) Sixtus III, 432

(45) Leo I, 440

(46) Hilary, 461

(47) Simplicius, 468

(48) Felix III, 483

(49) Gelasius I, 492

(50) Anastasius II, 496

(51) Symmachus, 498

(52) Hormisdus, 514

(53) John I, 523

(54) Felix IV, 526

(55) Boniface II, 530

(56) John II, 535

(57) Agapitus, 535

(58) Sylverius, 536

(59) Vigilus, 537

(60) Pelagius I, 556

(61) John III, 561

(62) Benedict I, 575

(63) Pelagius II, 579

(64) Gregory I, 590

(65) Sabinianus, 604

(66) Boniface III, 607

(67) Boniface IV, 608

(68) Deusdedit {Adeodatus I}, 615

(69) Boniface V, 619

(70) Honorius, 625

(71) Severinus, 640

(72) John IV, 640

(73) Theodore I, 642

(74) Martin I, 649

(75) Eugene I, 654

(76) Vitalian, 657

(77) Adeodatus II, 672

(78) Donus, 676

(79) Agatho, 678

(80) Leo II, 682

(81) Benedict II, 684

(82) John V, 685

(83) Conon, 686

(84) Sergius I, 687

(85) John VI, 701

(86) John VII, 705

(87) Sisinnius, 708

(88) Constantine, 708

(89) Gregory II, 715

(90) Gregory III, 731

(91) Zachary, 741

(92) Stephen II, 752

(93) Paul I, 757

(94) Stephen III, 768

(95) Adrian I, 772

(96) Leo III, 795

(97) Stephan IV, 816

(98) Paschal I, 817

(99) Eugene II, 824

(100) Valentine, 827

(101) Gregory IV, 827

(102) Sergius II, 844

(103) Leo IV, 847

(104) Benedict III, 855

(105) Nicholas I, 858

(106) Adrian II, 867

(107) John VIII, 872

(108) Marinus I, 882

(109) Adrian III, 884

(110) Stephan V, 885

(111) Formosus, 891

(112) Boniface VI

(113) Steven VI, 897

(114) Romanus, 897

(115) Theodore II, 897

(116) John IX, 898

(117) Benedict IV, 900

(118) Leo V, 903

(119) Sergius III, 904

(120) Anastasius III, 911

(121) Landus, 913

(122) John X, 914

(123) Leo VI, 938

(124) Stephan VII, 928

(125) John XI, 931

(126) Leo VII, 936

(127) Stephen VIII, 939

(128) Maginus II, 942

(129) Agapitus II, 946

(130) John XIII, 955

(131) Leo VII, 963

(132) Benedict V, 964

(133) John XIV, 965

(134) Benedict VI, 973

(135) Benedict VII, 974

(136) John XIV, 983

(137) John XV, 985

(138) Gregory V, 996

(139) Sylvester II, 999

(140) John XVII, 1003

(141) John XVIII, 1004

(142) Sergius IV, 1009

(143) Benedict VIII, 1012

(144) John XIX, 1024

(145) Benedict IX, 1032

(146) Sylvester III, 1045

(147) Benedict IX {Second time},1045

(148) Gregory VI, 1045

(149) Clement II, 1046

(150) Benedict IX {Third time},1047

(151) Damasus II, 1048

(152) Leo IX, 1049

(153) Victor II, 1055

(154) Stephan IX, 1057

(155) Nicholas II, 1059

(156) Alexander II, 1061

(157) Gregory VII, 1073

(158) Victor III, 1087

(159) Urban II, 1088

(160) Paschal II, 1099

(161) Gelasius II, 1118

(162) Callistus II, 1119

(163) Honorius II, 1124

(164) Innocent II, 1130

(165) Celestine II, 1143

(166) Lucius II, 1144

(167) Eugene III 1145

(168) Anastasius IV, 1153

(169) Adrian IV, 1154

(170) Alexander III, 1159

(171) Lucius III, 1181

(172) Urban III, 1185

(173) Gregory VIII, 1187

(174) Clement III, 1187

(175) Celestine III, 1191

(176) Innocent III, 1198

(177) Honorius III, 1216

(178) Gregory IX, 1227

(179) Celestine IV, 1241

(180) Innocent IV, 1243

(181) Alexander IV, 1254

(182) Urban IV, 1261

(183) Clement IV, 1265

(184) Gregory X, 1271

(185) Innocent V, 1276

(186) Adrian V, 1276

(187) John XXI, 1276

(188) Nicholas III, 1277

(189) Martin IV, 1281

(190) Honorius IV, 1285

(191) Nicholas IV 1288

(192) Celestine V, 1294

(193) Boniface VIII, 1294

(194) Benedict XI, 1303

(195) Clement V, 1305

(196) John XXII, 1316

(197) Benedict XII, 1334

(198) Clement VI, 1342

(199) Innocent VI, 1352

(200) Urban V, 1362

(201) Gregory XI, 1370

(202) Urban VI, 1378

(203) Boniface IX, 1389

(204) Innocent VII, 1389

(205) Gregory XII, 1406

(206) Martin V, 1417

(207) Eugene IV, 1431

(208) Nicholas V, 1447

(209) Callistus III, 1455

(210) Pius II, 1458

(211) Paul II, 1464

(212) Sixtus IV, 1471

(213) Innocent VIII, 1484

(214) Alexander VI, 1492

(215) Pius III, 1503

(216) Julius II, 1503

(217) Leo X, 1513

(218) Adrian VI, 1522

(219) Clement VII, 1523

(220) Paul III, 1534

(221) Julius III, 1550

(222) Marcellus II, 1555

(223) Paul IV, 1555

(224) Pius IV, 1559

(225) Pius V, 1566

(226) Gregory XIII, 1572

(227) Sixtus V, 1585

(228) Urban VII, 1590

(229) Gregory XIV, 1590

(230) Innocent IX, 1591

(231) Clement VIII, 1592

(232) Leo XI, 1605

(233) Paul V, 1605

(234) Gregory XV 1621

(235) Urban VIII, 1623

(236) Innocent X, 1644

(237) Alexander VII, 1655

(238) In 1655, Antonio Barberini, nephew of Urban VIII, was consecrated to the Episcopate under authority of the Bishop of Rome, by Bishops Scanarello, Bottini and Govotti. He was Archbishop of Remes 1657 untill his deat in 1671, and was made a Cardinal. It is from Bishop Barerini that the Roman Succession from Peter branches off from the Bishops of Rome.

(239) Michael le Tellier was consecrated by Barberini in 1668. He was confessor to King Louis XIV of France, and a Jesuit Provincial.

(240) Jaques Benigne de Bousseut, was consecrated by Le Tellier in 1670 as Bishop of Mieux, France.

(241) James Coyon de Matignon, was consecrated by de Bousseut in 1693.

(242) Dominicus Marie Varlet, Consecrated in 1719 in Paris by Bishop de Matignon, assisted by the Bishop of Quebec and the Bishop of Claremont. He was named Coadjutor to the Roman Catholic Bishop of Babylon who died on November 20, 1717 and Bishop Varlet succeeded to the title. After a period in Persia at Schamake, he was suspended from office for alleged technical irregularities, including the Confirmation of 604 candidates in Holland, whom he had confirmed at the request of the Church in Amsterdam.

The Dutch Church had been without a Bishop for 18 years as a punishment from the See Of Rome because the Dutch Church refused to cooperate in the persecution of the "Jansenests" in Holland.

Following the election of (243) Cornelius Van Steenhoven to serve as Archbishop of Utrecht, the Primatial See of Holland, Varlet agreed to perform the Consecration, which he did on October 15, 1724, thus making Van Steenhoven the seventh Archbishop of Utrecht and canonical successor to Saint Willibrord, the British missionary who had brought the faith to Holland. In this Consecration was born the Old Catholic Church, a Roman Succession.

(244)Johannes Van Stiphout, 1745

(245)Gaultherus Michael Van Niewenhuizen, 1786

(246)Adrian Brockman, 1778

(247)Johannes Jacobus Van Rhijin, 1797

(248)Gilbertus de Jong, 1805

(249)Wilibrordus Van Os, 1814

(250)Johannes Bon, 1819

(251)Johannes Van Santen, 1825

(252)Hermanus Heijkamp, 1854

(253)Casparus Johannes Rinkel, 1873

(254)Geradus Gul, 1892

(255)Arnold Harris Matthew was consecrated on April 28, 1908 by Archbishop Gul of Utrecht, assisted by Bishop J. J. Van Thiel of Haarlem, Bishop N. B. P. Spit of Deventer and Bishop J. Demmel of Bonn, Germany, to serve as the First Old Catholic Bishop of Britain.

(256)Frederick Wiloughby, 1914

(257)James I Wedgewood, 1916

(258)Irving S. Cooper, 1919

(259)Charles Hampton, 1931.

Hampton was Principal consecrator of

(260)Herman A. Spruit, 1957.

(261) Paul Michael Clemens, 1988 was consecrated by Herman A. Spruit, W. Blillinger.

(262) Joseph Philip Sousa, 1991 was consecrated by Paul Michael Clemens, Richard Alston Gundrey.

(263) Willibrord Johannes Van Campenhout, 1993 was consecrated an autocephalous Bishop by Joseph Philip Sousa.

(264)William Dennis Donavan, 1993

(265) Norman Howard Russell, 1995

(266) Paul Hugh Combs, Jr., 2001

(267) Michael G. Nesmith, 2003

Father Rick

12th September 2005, 09:56 PM

I have one more with some more notes included.. I'll post that so it goes on a new page due to the length of these things....

Father Rick

12th September 2005, 09:57 PM

one more to start the new page

Father Rick

12th September 2005, 09:58 PM

3. Roman (Duarte-Costa Line)

(1) Willard Earl Schultz was consecrated and cautelam to assure the Duarte-Costa succession on September 14, 2002 by Michel Joseph Pugin having previously been consecrated Auxiliary Bishop of the Diocese of New York of the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America on January 6, 1985 by Justo Roque Gonzalez Trininio, Diocesan Bishop, Diocese of New York and Primate of the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America (at a time when the Duarte-Costa succession of Bishop Gonzalez could not be assured). Bishop Gonzalez had been assisted by Raul Gonzalez of the "True Holy Roman Catholic Church" and Walter Dobrzynski of the "Catholic Church of the Latin Rite" in this consecration of Bishop Schultz

(2) Michel Joseph Pugin was consecrated Diocesan Bishop of the Diocese of Outaouais of the Catholic Apostolic Church in Canada on May 1, 1993 by Justo Roque Gonzalez Trininio, Diocesan Bishop, Diocese of New York and Primate of the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America; assisted by Jose Juan Villegas, Auxiliary Bishop of the Diocese of New York of the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America and President of the College of Bishops of the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America, and Joseph Hladney, Diocesan Bishop, Diocese of Florida of the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America.

(3) Justo Roque Gonzalez Trininio was consecrated ad cautelam to provide/assure the Duarte-Costa succession on March 10, 1989 by Luis Castillo Mendez, Bishop of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil; having been previously consecrated on June 26, 1983 by Francis Jerome Joachim Ladd, Archbishop of Albuquerque and Primate of the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America assisted by Martin J. Hill of the Western Orthodox Church in America and others.

(4) Luis Castillo Mendez was consecrated Bishop of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil on May 3, 1948 by Carlos Duarte-Costa, Primate and founding bishop of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil.

(5) Carlos Duarte-Costa was consecrated Titular Bishop of Maura and Diocesan Bishop of Botucatu, Sao Paulo, Brazil of the Roman Catholic Church on December 8, 1924 by Sebastiao Leme de Silveira Cintra Titular Bishop of Orthosia who was also later, Cardinal and Archbishop of Rio de Janeiro. Duarte-Costa established the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil July 6, 1945 subsequent to his expulsion from the Roman Catholic Church by Pius PP XII.

(the remainder are all within the Roman Catholic Church)

(6) Sebastiao Leme De Silveira Cintra was consecrated Titular Bishop of Orthosia on June 4, 1911 by Joaquin de Albuquerque-Calvacanti, Bishop of Goia; and was later named Cardinal and Archbishop of Rio de Janeiro

(7) Joaquim De Albuquerquw-Calvacanti was consecrated Bishop of Goia on October 26, 1890 by Mariano Rampolla Marchese del Tindaro, Titular Archbishop of Heraclea; and was later named Cardinal in 1905

(8) Mariano Rampolla Marchese Del Tindaeo was consecrated Titular Archbishop of Heraclea on December 8, 1882 by Edward Howard, Titular Archbishop of Neocaesarea and Auxiliary Bishop of Frascati ; and later named Cardinal in 1887

(9) Edward Howard was consecrated Titular Archbishop of Neocaesarea and Auxiliary Bishop of Frascati on June 30, 1872 by Charles Sacconi, Titular Archbishop of Nicaea; and was later named Cardinal

(10) Charles Sacconi was consecrated Titular Archbishop of Nicaea on June 8, 1851 by James Phillip Fransoni, Archbishop of Nazianzus; and was later named Cardinal.

(11) James Phillip Fransoni was consecrated Archbishop of Nazianzus on December 8, 1822 by Peter Francis Galetti, Titular Archbishop of Damascus; and was later named Cardinal.

(12) Peter Francis Galetti was consecrated Titular Archbishop of Damascus on September 12, 1819 by Alexander Matthaeus, Archbishop of Ferrara; and was later named Cardinal

(13) Alexander Matthaeus was consecrated Archbishop of Ferrara on February 23, 1777 by Bernadinus Giraud, Titular Archbishop of Damascus; and was later named Cardinal

(14) Bernadinus Giraud was consecrated Titular Archbishop of Damascus on April 26, 1767 by Carlo Rezzonico, Cardinal Bishop of Padova; and later named Cardinal

(15) Carlo Rezzonico, Cardinal Bishop of Padova, the future Pope Clement XIII was consecrated 19 March 1743 in the Basilica of the Twelve Holy Apostles, Rome, by His Holiness Pope Benedict XIV, assisted by Giuseppe Cardinal Accoramboni, Bishop of Frascati and Antonio Saverio Cardinal Gentili.

(16) Prospero Lambertini, Titular Archbishop of Theodosia, the future Pope Benedict XIV was consecrated 16 July 1724 in the Pauline Chapel of the Apostolic Palace of the Quirinal, Rome, by His Holiness Pope Benedict XIII, assisted by Giovanni Francesco Nicolai, O.F.M.Ref., Titular Archbishop of Myra and Nicola Maria Lercari, Titular Archbishop of Nazianzus.

(17) Vincenzo Maria Orsini, O.P., Cardinal Archbishop of Manfredonia, the future Pope Benedict XIII was consecrated 3 February 1675 in the Church of SS. Domenico e Sisto, Rome, by Paluzzo (Paluzzo degli Albertoni) Cardinal Altieri, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation de Propaganda Fide, assisted by Stefano Brancaccio, Archbishop-Bishop of Viterbo e Tuscania and Costanzo Zani, O.S.B., Bishop of Imola.

(18) Paluzzi (Paluzzi degli Albertoni) Altieri, Cardinal Bishop of Montefiascone e Corneto was consecrated 2 May 1666 in the Church of San Silvestro in Capite, Rome, by Ulderico Cardinal Carpegna, assisted by Stefano Ugolini, Titular Archbishop of Corinth and Giovanni Tommaso Pinelli, Bishop of Albenga.

(19) Ulderico Carpegna, Bishop of Gubbio was consecrated 7 October 1630 in the Pauline Chapel of the Apostolic Palace of the Quirinal, Rome, by Luigi Cardinal Caetani, assisted by Antonio Ricciulli, Bishop emeritus of Belcastro and Vicegerent of Rome, and Benedetto Landi, Bishop of Fossombrone.

(20) Luiga Cartani, Titular Patriarch of Antioch was consecrated 12 June 1622 in the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore, Rome, by Lodovico Cardinal Ludovisi, Archbishop of Bologna, assisted by Galeazzo Sanvitale, Archbishop emeritus of Bari and Vulpiano Volpi, Archbishop emeritus of Chieti.

(21) Lodovico Ludivisi, Cardinal Archbishop of Bologna was consecrated 2 May 1621 in the private chapel of his consecrator, near Saint Peter`s Basilica, Rome, by Galeazzo Sanvitale, Archbishop emeritus of Bari and Prefect of the Apostolic Palace, assisted by Cosmo de Torres, Titular Archbishop of Hadrianopolis and Ottavio Ridolfi, Bishop of Ariano.

(22) Galeazzo Sanvitale, Archbishop of Bari was consecrated 4 April 1604 in the chapel of the Apostolic Sacristy, Rome, by Girolamo Cardinal Bernerio, O.P., Bishop of Albano, assisted by Claudio Rangoni, Bishop of Piacenza and Giovanni Ambrogio Caccia, Bishop of Castro di Toscana.

(23) Girolamo Bernerio, O.P., Bishop of Ascoli Piceno was consecrated 7 September 1586 in the Basilica of the Twelve Holy Apostles, Rome, by Giulio Antonio Cardinal Santoro, assisted by Giulio Masetti, Bishop of Reggio Emilia and Ottaviano Paravicini, Bishop of Alessandria.

(24) Giulio Antonio Santoro, Archbishop of Santa Severina was consecrated 12 March 1566 in the Pauline Chapel of the Vatican Apostolic Palace by Scipione Cardinal Rebiba, Titular Patriarch of Constantinople, assisted by Annibale Caracciolo, Bishop of Isola and Giacomo de`Giacomelli, Bishop emeritus of Belcastro.

(25) Scipione Rebiba, Titular Bishop of Amicle and Auxiliary Bishop of Chieti. Elected Titular Bishop of Amicle and Auxiliary to Gian Pietro Cardinal Carafa, Archbishop of Chieti, 16 March 1541. To date, after extensive research, no record of his consecration has been found.

It is widely believed that Rebiba was ordained bishop by Gian Pietro Cardinal Carafa, who became Pope Paul IV. However, no documentary evidence has been found to verify this hypothesis. Scipione Cardinal Rebiba is the source point for the episcopal lineage of a large percentage of bishops with roots in the Roman Catholic lineage.

Alternative Succession of Justo R. Gonzalez Trininio (includes succession passed via co-consecrators --traditionally Apostolic Succession is traced through prinicipal consecrators)

(26) Justa Roque Gonzalez Trininio was consecrated on June 26, 1983 by Francis Jerome Joachim Ladd, Archbishop of Albuquerque and Primate of the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America assisted by Martin J. Hill of the Western Orthodox Church in America and others. He was later consecrated ad cautelam on March 10, 1989 by Luis Castillo Mendez to assure the Costa succession.

(27) Francis Jerome Joachim Ladd was consecrated Archbishop of Albuquerque and Primate of the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America on September 28, 1974 by Robert Norton assisting David Mark Johnson

(28) Robert Norton was consecrated June 2, 1974 by William R. Nesselrode and Emile Fairfield Rodriguez assisting Mark A. Miller.

(29) William R. Nesselrode was consecrated August 2, 1973 by Emile Federico Rodriguez y Durand (Fairfield) assisting Mark A. Miller.

(30) Emile Federico Rodriguez y Durand (Fairfield) was consecrateed August 15, 1954 by Estefan Meyer Corradi-Scarella assisted by Carlos Duarte Costa.

(31) Estefan Meyer Corradi-Scarella was consecrated January 23, 1949 by Luis Castillio Mendez assisted by Carlos Duarte Costa to establish the Catholic Apostolic Church within North America and who established The Catholic Apostolic Church in North America in Albuquerque, New Mexico later that year, becoming Archbishop of Albuquerque and Primate of The Catholic Apostolic Church in North America.

(32) Luis Castillo Mendez was consecrated Bishop of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil on May 3, 1948 by Carlos Duarte-Costa, Primate and founding bishop of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil.

(33) Carlos Duarte-Costa

Father Rick

12th September 2005, 09:59 PM

For anyone who actually cares, on the first 2 lines of succession, +Paul Combs is my bishop.

Aymn27

13th September 2005, 09:56 PM

Wow Fr Rick!! hehe..you made sure you were valid, no?

Boy, I bet that Costa line is a thorn in the side for Rome eh??

Father Rick

13th September 2005, 10:12 PM

Yep... especially since Costa was re-accepted into the Roman church as a valid bishop without any form or 're-ordination'... so they have to accept the ordinations he did while he was separated from Rome...

ContraMundum

14th September 2005, 11:33 AM

Wow Fr Rick!! hehe..you made sure you were valid, no?

Boy, I bet that Costa line is a thorn in the side for Rome eh??

Making sure the guy who lays hands on you is in valid orders is a wise thing.

holyshe

14th September 2005, 11:36 AM

i agree or whats the point?

i ask you if priests was also a nit nurse and layed his hands on your head would that technically ordain you?

Father Rick

16th September 2005, 10:57 PM

i agree or whats the point?

i ask you if priests was also a nit nurse and layed his hands on your head would that technically ordain you?Uhhhhh...That question is almost like asking if a priest were to bathe a baby, is the child technically baptized...

I think you're just joking here, but just in case-- No, that wouldn't ordain you. For a sacrament to be valid there must be intent

holyshe

17th September 2005, 04:57 AM

i was joking! but what if the bishop had intent and the person had intent but the church as a body hadn't agreed? is that still valid?

Father Rick

17th September 2005, 08:38 AM

Yes... that's when you get into the 'valid but illicit' category...

holyshe

17th September 2005, 12:39 PM

please explain...?

Father Rick

17th September 2005, 02:15 PM

The Old Catholic lines of succession are deemed by the Roman Church as "valid but illicit"-- meaning they recognize our lines as valid, but we're not operating with their 'permission'. They also view the EO the same way. I believe the EO view Rome in the same way.

It's kind of the Catholic version of Anglican Communion vs. Continuing Anglican-- more church politics than anything else.

PaladinValer

17th September 2005, 09:43 PM

I think the EO only accept their's as valid and licit. If I remember rightly, their idea of validity and licitly is valid <--> licit (biconditional).

Philip

17th September 2005, 11:16 PM

I think the EO only accept their's as valid and licit. If I remember rightly, their idea of validity and licitly is valid <--> licit (biconditional).

This is essentially correct. Remember also that we consider Apostolic Succession to be more than being able to trace back to the Apostles.

1. The Antiochian Succession (Vilatte Line)

(38) Segius, 544

(39) Domnus III, 547

(40) Anadtasius, 560

(41) Gregory I, 564

(42) Paul II, 567

(43) Patra, 571
....[and others]

Weren't these guys Monophysites?

SirTimothy

18th September 2005, 03:08 AM

Weren't these guys Monophysites?

Mono or mia?

Timothy

Philip

19th September 2005, 09:14 AM

Mono or mia?

Either way, they rejected Chalcedon.

Father Rick

20th September 2005, 10:04 PM

This is essentially correct. Remember also that we consider Apostolic Succession to be more than being able to trace back to the Apostles.

Weren't these guys Monophysites?Hmm... I'd need to look it up. I know that Gregory I and Paul II were both early popes so I doubt they were monophysites. If you pull up the info before I can, let me know.

Philip

20th September 2005, 10:59 PM

As I understand the history, Severus of Antioch of deposed in AD 518 and replaced by Paul I. He was followed by Euphrosius and Ephrem of Amid. In 544, Jacob Baradaeus (Jacob Baradaeus was the Monophysite bishop of Edessa, and the Jacobite Church still bears his name.) named Sergius of Tella as Patriarch of Antioch. This was highly irregular as Ephrem was still Patriarch of Antioch and recognized as such by the Sees of Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, and Alexandria.

Here is your list with comments by me:

(37) Serverius, 509

[Where are Euphrosius and Ephrem?]

(38) Segius, 544 [Irregularly appointed by Jacob Baradaeus. Recognized by the (non-Chalcedonian) Syriac Church of Antioch]

(39) Domnus III, 547 [Recognized as the successor of Ephrem by the (Chalcedonian) Church of Antioch]

[The (non-Chalcedonian) Syriac Church of Antioch considers this see vacant 546 - 550]

(40) Anadtasius, 560 [the Sinaite? He was the Patriarch of the (Chalcedonian) Church of Antioch AD 561-571 and 593 - 599)]

(41) Gregory I, 564 [He was the Patriarch of the (Chalcedonian) Church of Antioch AD 571 - 594)

(42) Paul II, 567 [the Black/the Alexandrian ? He was Patriarch of the (non-Chalcedonian) Syriac Church of Antioch AD 550 - 575]

[The (Chalcedonian) Church of Antioch recognizes Anastasius II as the successor of Gregory I. Anastasius II reigned 599 - 610]

(43) Patra, 571 [of Raqqa? He was Patriarch of the (non-Chalcedonian) Syriac Church of Antioch AD 581 - 591. The Syriacs consider him to be the successor of Paul the Black after a period of vacancy.]

(44) Domnus IV, 586 [This is a name I don't recognize.]

(45) Julianus, 591 [He was Patriarch of the (non-Chalcedonian) Syriac Church of Antioch AD 591 - 595.]

(46) Athanasius I, 595 [He was Patriarch of the (non-Chalcedonian) Syriac Church of Antioch AD 595 - 631.]

(47) John II, 636 [ of Sedre? He was Patriarch of the (non-Chalcedonian) Syriac Church of Antioch AD 631 - 648]

(48) Theodorus I, 649 [He was Patriarch of the (non-Chalcedonian) Syriac Church of Antioch AD 649 - 667]

[From here on, the list seems to follow the Patriarchs of the (non-Chalcedonian) Syriac Church of Antioch.]

(49) Severus, 668

(50) Athanasius II, 684

(51) Julianus II, 687

(52) Elias I, 709