Question about Anglican faith (prayer for the dead)

[oakraven65]

I have been trained in an evangelican hardline church, so I have some problems to understand some points :

I know : Luke 20
38He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

I agree with the Communion of Saints, making an hardwork to relate the doctrine of the Nicene Creed to the contents of New Testament

But I have a real problem with "praying for the dead".

What is the use ? I have been teached with the idea , we make choices in this life, and at death there is no solution after.

I have learned there was no "indulgence" even paying. And the 39 articles reject the doctrine of Purgatory.

And that salvation was by "faith only" (but it is a protestant standard).

Have you good links, input, relating to this point.

What is the "meaning" of this ritual ? Is it a dogma ?

(I stop my questions here, but I will open a new thread about the meaning of Doctrinal developpment)
,

[KristianJ]

This thread has been moved to the main forum area of STR from The Chapel :)

[gitlance]

The Church exists as one body thoughout all of time, both earthly and spiritually. She is the Church Militant (on earth), Suffering (in the Realm of the Dead), and Triumphant (in Heaven). Her members are one body, not separated by death, for the Christian never experiences death. Our brothers and sisters who have departed their earthly existence are now even more alive than we are, and because they are closer to God, they have a greater ability to offer prayers than we do. We also pray FOR our brother and sisters (in addition to asking them to pray for us), because we wish to comfort them in their journey to Heaven, for the salvific process does not end at death.

We base this off the universal tradition of the Holy Catholic Church throughout all ages, and also off some passages in Scripture. For example, in Maccabees we see sacrifices and prayers on behalf of the dead, and in 2 Timothy we see Paul praying for the recently deceased Onesiphorus:

2 Maccabees 12:38-46[/font]]
38 Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath there.

39 On the next day, as had now become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kindred in the sepulchres of their ancestors. 40Then under the tunic of each one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was the reason these men had fallen. 41So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. 43He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin-offering. In doing this he acted very well and honourably, taking account of the resurrection. 44For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.


2 Tim 1:16-18][/size]

May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chain; 17when he arrived in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me 18—may the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! And you know very well how much service he rendered in Ephesus.

[AngCath]

From the Catechism of the Episcopal Church in the Book of Common Prayer

The Christian Hope

Q. What is the Christian hope?
A. The Christian hope is to live with confidence in newness and fullness of life, and to await the coming of Christ in glory, and the completion of God's purpose for the world.


Q. What do we mean by the coming of Christ in glory?
A. By the coming of Christ in glory, we mean that Christ will come, not in weakness but in power, and will make all things new.

Q. What do we mean by heaven and hell?
A. By heaven, we mean eternal life in our enjoyment of God; by hell, we mean eternal death in our rejection of God.

Q. Why do we pray for the dead?
A. We pray for them, because we still hold them in our love, and because we trust that in God's presence those who have chosen to serve him will grow in his love, until they see him as he is.

Q. What do we mean by the last judgment?
A. We believe that Christ will come in glory and judge the living and the dead.

Q. What do we mean by the resurrection of the body?
A. We mean that God will raise us from death in the fullness of our being, that we may live with Christ in the communion of the saints.

Q. What is the communion of saints?
A. The communion of saints is the whole family of God, the living and the dead, those whom we love and those whom we hurt, bound together in Christ by sacrament, prayer, and praise.

Q. What do we mean by everlasting life?
A. By everlasting life, we mean a new existence, in which we are united with all the people of God, in the joy of fully knowing and loving God and each other. Q. What, then, is our assurance as Christians?
A. Our assurance as Christians is that nothing, not even death, shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen.

I posted the whole section because I believe it will more fully address the question and spirit of the thread. I hope this helps.

[benedictine]

In regards to the 39 articles, they are no longer binding.

[gtsecc]

Where did yyou get the idea there was anything wrong with praying for the dead?
If you got it from the New Testament, well then you are reading in a new interpretation that conflicts with how the Church, both divided and undivided has always understood that passage.

[oakraven65]

Thanks for the hints, I have departed from an evangelical background, for good reasons, and trying to find my way in anglican church.

Where did yyou get the idea there was anything wrong with praying for the dead?
If you got it from the New Testament, well then you are reading in a new interpretation that conflicts with how the Church, both divided and undivided has always understood that passage.

There are some holes in my theology, I have came by myself to the conviction, about the communion of the saints.

I have departed myself , but partly from an evangelical background, and I have always been thinking that "prayers for the dead" was unuseful.

- The quotation of 2 Maccabee is not authoritative for Evangelicals, (out of the Canon of the Reformation). But the position of Evangelicals is moving , I have read some articles of an Evangelical Theology College where the idea that the New Testament had reinforced some contents of the deuterocanonical was developped. Deuterocanonicals were considered as a part of the elaboration process of the doctrine in the inter-testament era.]

[I have no problem with the Canon since I have learned the canon had been defined by the Synod of Carthage in 4th century, after a long elaboration process,
I Have to say I trust the scriptures because their reliability relates to apostolicity , apostles succession and teachnings, ]





- But the prayer of Apostle Paul for his friend Onesiphorus seems more relevant for me, an example , I suppose in an official letter Apostle Paul would never authorize himself to induce errors. If we suppose Onesiphorus is dead. The context : relating to the "household of Onesiphorus" and not Onesiphorus himself, and the "speech", looks like an funeral praise.


The practice of prayer for the dead has never been condemned, neither by the Old Testament, nor by the New Testament.

And St Augustine seems to say it was an ancient practice of the early church.

"The universal Church observes this law, handed down from the Fathers, that prayers should be offered for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their proper place at the Sacrifice" (Serm. clxxii, 2, P.L., XXXVIII, 936).

It seems clear for me. Thanks.