Your thoughts on this?

[gitlance]

Hey everyone...

I was hoping I could get some thoughts, opinions, commentary, etc, on this passage I discovered from Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, from somewhere between AD 177-200.

This is from "Against Heresies":


"Therefore we will refute those who hold unauthorized assemblies by pointing to the tradition of the greatest and oldest church, a church known to all men, which was founded and established at Rome by the most renowned Apostles Peter and Paul. This tradition the Church has from the Apostles, and this faith has been proclaimed to all men, and has come down to our own day through the succession of bishops. For this chuch has a position of leadership and authority; and therefore every church, that is, the faithful everywhere, must needs agree with the church at Rome; for in her the apostolic tradition has ever been preserved by the faithful from all parts of the world."

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Do you really want to know my thoughts on this one? ;)

Peace be with you,
Rob :hug:

[SirTimothy]

Then why was the Celtic church not under Rome's authority until Augustine arrived?

Timothy

[gitlance]

Technically, at the time when Iraneaus wrote that, nobody was under Rome's authority. And all he said was that everyone should agree with Rome, but he didn't say everyone had to "obey" Rome...

[SirTimothy]

Technically, at the time when Iraneaus wrote that, nobody was under Rome's authority. And all he said was that everyone should agree with Rome, but he didn't say everyone had to "obey" Rome...

True. I would agree with them if I didn't believe that they held contra-biblical opinions. When their opinions all line up with what I believe Christ taught, then I will agree with them, as Irenaeus suggests. They would have to drop papal infallibility, forced acceptance of transubstantiation, telling me I'm 'invincibly ignorant' and a few other things first... :)

Timothy

[Fish and Bread]

One thing that I think is worth keeping in mind is that the document Irenaeus wrote was entitled "Against Heresies". What this tells us that is that most of the things he was writing against were not really settled matters. In order words, a large number of the viewpoints he decries had a substantial number of adherents in the church of his day and his writings were an attempt to discredit them. When he says talks of people following Rome, he is expressing a controversial point of view in bold language, not simply reiterating an established fact. If it were an established fact agreed to by everyone, his document would have been titled something "Things We All Agree On and Everyone Knows".

Secondly, no man is infallible other than Christ himself. Irenaeus was incorrect on a lot of points and had a lot of other famous theologians who, even in his day, disagreed with him. He was in the minority in his allegience to Rome. Even with the steady "Papal creep" that was going on in the Church from about that time until it's culmination several centuries later, 150 years after Irenaeus' statement the Council of Nicea's 6th canon still outlined limitations on the power of the Bishop of Rome equal to the other Patriarchs.

To understand Irenaeus' statement as confirming the existence of a Pope who held absolute authority over the entire Christian Church in the 2nd century is to understand his statement devoid of the context offered by his brother theologians of the time and by history itself.

John

[xristos.anesti]

Hey everyone...

I was hoping I could get some thoughts, opinions, commentary, etc, on this passage I discovered from Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, from somewhere between AD 177-200.

"Therefore we will refute those who hold unauthorized assemblies by pointing to the tradition of the greatest and oldest church, a church known to all men, which was founded and established at Rome by the most renowned Apostles Peter and Paul. This tradition the Church has from the Apostles, and this faith has been proclaimed to all men, and has come down to our own day through the succession of bishops. For this chuch has a position of leadership and authority; and therefore every church, that is, the faithful everywhere, must needs agree with the church at Rome; for in her the apostolic tradition has ever been preserved by the faithful from all parts of the world."

This is from "Against Heresies":

Indeed, what the others have said.



I think that it is very important to understand the context of what was said, and when it was said, and by whom it was said and everything about the time when it was said.

Note the highlighted words. Think of the ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD when St. Irenaeus said this. And think of the word PRESERVATION.



Which part of that Faith of the ALL PARTS OF THAT WORLD has Rome PRESERVED UNTIL TODAY?

Compare what you hear with what you see and what you read, and you will know the answer.

Many years.

[trooper]

I think the issue must have been, some folks have been teaching what is not true, and we must all find an authority that can define some basics for us, so that we can move on from this nonsense.

Sounds like a plea from my heart these days.

[Fish and Bread]

I think the issue must have been, some folks have been teaching what is not true, and we must all find an authority that can define some basics for us, so that we can move on from this nonsense.

Maybe it would be better just to focus on our love for God and for one another and just respect our differences, leaving said differences to be sorted out in the next life. Sometimes I think this whole idea of heresy is all one big scheme that Satan gameplanned in an attempt to sow divisions.

John

[trooper]

John,

I would agree with you in the sense that we may be stupidly discussing whether we should sit or kneel at some point, or how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, etc., ad nauseum.... But, when we disagree about the divinity of Christ or the absolute realness of the Resurrection, then I think the discussion must be had.

I do think that, from what I've learned from Pope Benedict XVI/Cardinal Ratzingers' works, that we should define these heresies as "errors" to be corrected in love. Instead of just storming out of meetings in anger..

Nevertheless, when people in our Church deny such basic tenets of the faith, they must be challenged, corrected and set on the right course. It is Satan himself who revels in these denials.

We cannot get very far saying that we love God, if we haven't first agreed on what we mean when we say that. Who is God? Why do we love Him? Why does he love us? Those questions remain in flux in this Communion.

[PaladinValer]

Primacy, not papacy, is the issue here.

The Bishop of Rome is indeed the first among equals in terms of the Five Great Patriarchies. However, the idea of papacy has no ancient backing, and so while I, if the Anglican and Vatican churches were reconciled, would then recognize the Bishop of Rome and not of Canterbury then as my first among equals, I would not recognize him as "pope" as understood today.

I do recognize the title "pope" as it was defined in early days: as a leader of a holy see. Thus, in this sense, +++Rowan Williams is indeed a pope to me. And +++Benedict XVI is too a pope (as is +++Bartholomew II and the leader of the Utrecht Union too).

[AngCath]

Remember, all bishops are papas

[SirTimothy]

I do recognize the title "pope" as it was defined in early days: as a leader of a holy see. Thus, in this sense, +++Rowan Williams is indeed a pope to me. And +++Benedict XVI is too a pope (as is +++Bartholomew II and the leader of the Utrecht Union too).

You forgot +++Shenouda III

Timothy

[PaladinValer]

Who be he? One of the spiritual heads of the Oriental Orthodox?

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Who be he? One of the spiritual heads of the Oriental Orthodox?

Yep.

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Who be he?

:thumbsup: I like the excellent use of pirate/olde englishe there. ^_^ :thumbsup:

[higgs2]

:thumbsup: I like the excellent use of pirate/olde englishe there. ^_^ :thumbsup:

Only 6 more days until *Talk Like a Pirate Day*!!

[AngCath]

Shenouda is the Coptic Pope (Oriental Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria)

[pmcleanj]

Only 6 more days until *Talk Like a Pirate Day*!!
OH! Oh! I must send the email around to my staff! Does anyone have the web-link?

[higgs2]

OH! Oh! I must send the email around to my staff! Does anyone have the web-link?
I got it here: http://www.reallivepirate.com/

Aaarrrgggh!