What is Wrong with going to Church?

[SNPete]

I have a question.



I been seeing posts in this section where a poster doesn’t like other Christians pushing the idea one must go to church. OK being pushy is bad. But:



My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?



I am sure this question will be interpreted as an attack by some, but so what! I just want to understand the rationale behind the home church idea.



My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian. Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community. If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship, counsel or salvation can simply give the church a call and find someone to talk to. I don’t this as being possible with a home fellowship group.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

just what is wrong with going to church?

The answer may lie in your words... Church means people. You be Church, not go to church. For some it is a reaction to structure, others hypocrisy, still others a desire to talk openly with others. For many it is simply a calling. God calls different peeps for different puropses, no reason why church can't be different in its parts and places too.

Any structure that exists purely to maintain status quo - be it a great big building or a teeny house - is unGodly. So it's not that houses are better, just different. I grew up in housechurches so i never knew there was anything else for like 10 years!

It's the same with anything in christianity, what is God calling us to do/who is God calling us to be? This is personal and as Church.

[SNPete]

Any structure that exists purely to maintain status quo - be it a great big building or a teeny house - is unGodly. So it's not that houses are better, just different. I grew up in housechurches so i never knew there was anything else for like 10 years!

It's the same with anything in christianity, what is God calling us to do/who is God calling us to be? This is personal and as Church.If it is a call, that is great. But, I have seen too many people not go to church for reasons other than a calling, such as going fishing or being able to sleep in on Sunday.

Granted there are some "status quo" type churches, but the majority are just doing God's work in a positive way.

I never knew there was a housechurch thing until I came to this forum and I've been a Christian for 20 years. They must be well hidden.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I never knew there was a housechurch thing until I came to this forum and I've been a Christian for 20 years. They must be well hidden.

Nice one, but I guess yer American?
I see whatcha saying, after all Homer stayed home on Sundays... gr8 episode!
I'll let some others talk, but I find it intersting how many peeps leave church-organisations to save their relationship with God!!!

[New_Wineskin]

I have a question.



I been seeing posts in this section where a poster doesn’t like other Christians pushing the idea one must go to church. OK being pushy is bad. But:



My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?


You are looking at one thing and interpreting it as something else .

The objection is that christians "push the idea that one must 'go to church' " . The objection is not the idea of fellowshipping or "going to church" .

One does not need to object to something for one not having a desire to do that something .



I am sure this question will be interpreted as an attack by some, but so what! I just want to understand the rationale behind the home church idea.


This is another completely different idea outside of those other two ideas . "Home church" is simply doing the "church" thing at home . That's it . These people obviously have nothing against "going to church" since they have set up a method of doing just that .



My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian. Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community. If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship, counsel or salvation can simply give the church a call and find someone to talk to. I don’t this as being possible with a home fellowship group.

Well , you must not have heard of all of the abuse that "church" has caused on people . People can reach out to the community without the label of a group . Home groups can list themselves in the book as well . All of the things that you listed can be accomplished by a home group . Some home groups are connected to several other groups in a network . There are many ways to be connected in christianity outside of the traditional way .

[New_Wineskin]

Nice one, but I guess yer American?
I see whatcha saying, after all Homer stayed home on Sundays... gr8 episode!
I'll let some others talk, but I find it intersting how many peeps leave church-organisations to save their relationship with God!!!

Many episodes of The Simpsons concerning mainstream christianity are "spot on" . If only people in those groups would "get it" . :)

[M Paul]

I have a question.



I been seeing posts in this section where a poster doesn’t like other Christians pushing the idea one must go to church. OK being pushy is bad. But:



My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?



I am sure this question will be interpreted as an attack by some, but so what! I just want to understand the rationale behind the home church idea.



My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian. Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community. If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship, counsel or salvation can simply give the church a call and find someone to talk to. I don’t this as being possible with a home fellowship group.

Perhaps, you're not reading very carefully?? We do go to church, but our church has a different structure--that is, house church/whole church, or non-institutional. The objections you are reading about are to the ones with a congregational and episcapol structure, or institutional. The latter are not based on the Bible, and to support their human traditions, they have a tendency to promote spiritual abuse, irrelevance, and boredom.

In Corinthains, the Lord's Supper had a very public appearance as a special ocassion. The whole church part of the structure is very public. The church can make itself as public as it wants to be.

I agree with you that going to church is beneficial. However, in my view going to a church not based on Scripture has a lot of draw backs--like the ones you read about in this forum. And, going to a church based on Scripture makes spiritual life --well, transformed and wonderful.

Regards,

Paul

[janny108]

Whenever I hear people saying they don't go to church because of hypocrites, God never told us to follow them!!! Don't look at people, look at Jesus. No church is perfect, all have inperfect people in them.
Jan

[M Paul]

Whenever I hear people saying they don't go to church because of hypocrites, God never told us to follow them!!! Don't look at people, look at Jesus. No church is perfect, all have inperfect people in them.
Jan

What if someone at the time of the Reformation said they don't go to church because of the hypocrites??? At the time it was true that there was a lot of hypocrisy everywhere. Even the RCC had to call for the Counter-Reformation to clean it up. However, the Protestants said the real source of the hypocrisy was that the RCC was based on incorrect theology, on human tradition rather than the Bible alone. Still, for the average attender it must have seemed discouraging.

Some people have tried a lot of local churches, a whole lot, and have found too much hypocrisy, as well as irrelevance. To them, it's not a matter of just trying one more--in a lot of areas, they are all the same. Then, they can just give up, or they can give more thought to how to find a church that is truly spiritual and relevant to their lives. In that thought process, the emergent church movement arouse and continues to acquire energy. People study Scripture to try to understand how church really should be and why so many churches seem dead. And, then they realize the congregational church as it is practiced today isn't in the Bible, that it's just based on human traditions, and that this human focus is in large part why things don't seem truly of the Christian spirit. Then, they try the biblical model of church structure (which is never taught in the congregational church, but still it never left the Bible), and all of a sudden they have a relevant and exciting church experience.

I give these people who don't go to church a break now. I don't judge them. The problem is not them, but a whole lot of patience is needed under their circumstances for them to come to a proper solution to being a part of a spiritual community.

And, I don't judge those people who can't give up their cherished traditions in continuing to attend a church that is really mostly based on human tradition. We are still united in the blood of Christ. They just do church different. Catholics do church very different--but they are still my brothers and sisters in the blood of Christ (but those of the Base Ecclesial movement, the RCC branch of the emergent church, perhaps, are even more so).

Regards,

Paul

[Wisdom's Child]

One problem that I have with the typical "church" is that they simply don't fit into my schedule, and as much as I have tried to get them to open their doors on a friday afternoon they don't.

Instead, it's easier for the pastor to tell me to pray for a job that doesn't force me to work nights and weekends. It seems that they have forgotten that there are many folks out there who from economic necessity must choose to wait on tables, and provide services to those lucky ones that go to church on sunday and then feel it's OK to go out to eat afterwards, or go shopping, etc...

Never mind that poor shlep who would LOVE to be able to go to church but simply can't afford to.

[New_Wineskin]

One problem that I have with the typical "church" is that they simply don't fit into my schedule, and as much as I have tried to get them to open their doors on a friday afternoon they don't.

Instead, it's easier for the pastor to tell me to pray for a job that doesn't force me to work nights and weekends. It seems that they have forgotten that there are many folks out there who from economic necessity must choose to wait on tables, and provide services to those lucky ones that go to church on sunday and then feel it's OK to go out to eat afterwards, or go shopping, etc...

Never mind that poor shlep who would LOVE to be able to go to church but simply can't afford to.

Excellant point for the thread ! :)

[Godzchild]

but I find it intersting how many peeps leave church-organisations to save their relationship with God!!!

That's me! I became too dependant on structure and not dependant enough on God. When one leaves the safe confines of an organisation one is FORCED to put their whole trust in God...not pastors, not people, not an organisation...not sunday church...but God. When this happens I believe Growth happens. It can be at this stage that some return to the organisations...others don't, however, and continue to fellowship outside of the organisations.

[SNPete]

That's me! I became too dependant on structure and not dependant enough on God. When one leaves the safe confines of an organisation one is FORCED to put their whole trust in God...not pastors, not people, not an organisation...not sunday church...but God. When this happens I believe Growth happens. It can be at this stage that some return to the organisations...others don't, however, and continue to fellowship outside of the organisations.Good point. I think the lesson is to find a church that encourages you to grow in God/Christ. Happily, I am in such a church. I hope that you can be also.

[Godzchild]

That would be the ideal thing :)

[lismore]

I have a question.



I been seeing posts in this section where a poster doesn’t like other Christians pushing the idea one must go to church. OK being pushy is bad. But:



My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?

.

Nothing wrong with going to church!

But pushing the idea that you must go to church is wrong, because it is unscriptural.

Everyone who has called on the name of the Lord is a part of THE church.

The church is not buildings, baubles and programs- its living stones- the people who are saved. 1 Peter 2:5. The Kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21.

Lismore:)

[discernomatic]

Nothing wrong with going to church!

But pushing the idea that you must go to church is wrong, because it is unscriptural.

Everyone who has called on the name of the Lord is a part of THE church.

The church is not buildings, baubles and programs- its living stones- the people who are saved. 1 Peter 2:5. The Kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21.

Lismore:)

Amen, Lismore :thumbsup:

[heron]

The hypocrisy is part of normal human life, until it reaches a point where errors are justified and condoned. Many people leave the church when they are asked to push beyond their rational ethical limits, to follow something unscriptural. Usually they leave after a compilation, not with one disagreement.

[Buttermilk]

Usually they leave after a compilation, not with one disagreement.

Yep that was my case.

[heron]

Buttermilk, did people accuse you of leaving in a huff over one issue or hurt, not seeing how many you had already put up with? I read a little of your other thread, but didn't go as far as details.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

What is right with going to Church?

Seriously, list these qualities, you may answer the OP...

[heron]

There are days when I don't feel like going, but when I get there I am more refreshed than I could imagine. It pulls me out of the defeats of the day.

[Buttermilk]

Buttermilk, did people accuse you of leaving in a huff over one issue or hurt, not seeing how many you had already put up with? I read a little of your other thread, but didn't go as far as details.

Nope - nobody has really spoken to me about it at all - says it all really :sigh:

[heron]

I've seen that happen so many times. I don't know if people are too busy, or don't notice...but whenever I run into someone who left a church, that's their story. Not one person called.

[New_Wineskin]

I've seen that happen so many times. I don't know if people are too busy, or don't notice...but whenever I run into someone who left a church, that's their story. Not one person called.

So much for "family" , huh ? That may be much better than the whole group coming over and seeing what's up and pushing for one to come back .

[Received]

My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian. Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community. If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship, counsel or salvation can simply give the church a call and find someone to talk to. I don’t this as being possible with a home fellowship group.

Indeed, that is a very reasonable opinion to hold, but it still remains personal, though there is a very high liklihood of agreement on this point. Some may not go to a specific church because the behavior there is aversive to one's spiritual walk -- particular persons who attend may cause involuntary distaste, which opens the door for sin, and church is presumably a place to escape from sin. Others may not go because, like one person I knew, they work six days a week and therefore only have one day entirely free to rest. Still others may not go because the sermon is either ridiculously boring, or contains material one already knows. I am of this latter point: I read voraciously, know my pastor's theology almost, if not better than, he does, and consider the lessons he speaks to be rather bland for my taste, though for others, who don't read like me, the freak, might find this information edifying. One may not go to any church because his place of living does not allow for any expedient reach of a church, or he may not find any church that "clicks" with him.

Ultimately, I find nothing necessarily bad about the Christian who spends the day at home, and this presumably includes sleeping late. Worship is a way of being, and is poorly contained in a single hour once a week. In order to be able to act in such a way that entails the greatest spirit of worship, one must have the greatest physical and psychical advantage possible to be able to prolong and magnify this capacity for worship. And this may include staying home to stay away from agitating persons, or boring sermons; or sleeping late, seeing how sleep is needed for good health.

Moreover, church was much more a perceived necessity at the birth of Christianity, and in places where Christianity is a minority, than it is now, where I am living. The early church was a means of getting away from vehement persecution and finding a growing faith in the presence of others who were fighting the same good fight as oneself. Such is rarely the case now, and here in America and other places that tolerate religious freedom. Hence, there is really no pressing need to go to church unless one finds blessings in the presence of others, or the sermon to be scintillating or fascinating.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian. Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community. If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship, counsel or salvation can simply give the church a call and find someone to talk to. I don’t this as being possible with a home fellowship group.

This is not a reason to hold onto the corpse, though!

[New_Wineskin]

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This is not a reason to hold onto the corpse, though!

Ah yes . Good analogy . I will attempt to remember that and say that I wish to throw the *dead* baby out with the bath water . ;)

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Ah yes . Good analogy . I will attempt to remember that and say that I wish to throw the *dead* baby out with the bath water . ;)

Or leave it there, burial at sea and all that.

Move out from the water to the desert. Try 40 years wondering, get to know the outcasts and villains. You know, where Jesus is.

[lismore]

So much for "family" , huh ? That may be much better than the whole group coming over and seeing what's up and pushing for one to come back .

'They left because they were a rebellious spirit or wolf in sheeps clothing. They can still be saved if they come back to church, but thats up to them. We sure aint running after someone who is not really saved. Them leaving us showed they had no part in the truth'

Thats what they would say about a poor little lamb that was driven away.

The unconditional love the church offers and brags about is really a very conditional form of false toleration, not love.

:(

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

We're fighting a losing battle when most of the church is in hiding from a world that Jesus lives in. They all say how you should never be of the world, but happen to forget we are called to be in the world.

[heron]

When you whitewash the rotten wood, the termites scramble out with armored white backs.

(You'll have to figure out your own application of this little proverb.)

[New_Wineskin]

'They left because they were a rebellious spirit or wolf in sheeps clothing. They can still be saved if they come back to church, but thats up to them. We sure aint running after someone who is not really saved. Them leaving us showed they had no part in the truth'

Thats what they would say about a poor little lamb that was driven away.

The unconditional love the church offers and brags about is really a very conditional form of false toleration, not love.

:(

Yep . You are either with them or they are against you . I would rather have the latter if that is the choice .

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Kill the Church! Murder most holy: Voluntarily euthenize our diseased and dieing body.

To give up what we hold most dear is far more Biblical than clinging to tradition.

God has left the building, now lets destroy the sucker and rebuild our communities.

[Received]

Yes, kill the church. We must become neo-Nietzscheans and destroy false Christianity in order to unveil the true power and excellence of the gospel. We must declare: the death of the church. In order to do this, we must first kill it ourselves. In order to kill it, we must deviate from it -- for the church is no independent structure, but some weakling that acts as a parasite on whoever it can, sucking their intelligence, integrity, and individuality. In doing so we must create a new church: the church of the individual; a church which only individuals can enter; a church which the crowd as the crowd cannot see.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Erm, u taking the <edit>? (j/k)

Amen, old bean!

[heron]

Wow, received...erm...:eek: ...checking to see if we're listening?
"They left because they were a rebellious spirit or wolf in sheeps clothing. They can still be saved if they come back to church, but that's up to them. We sure ain't running after someone who is not really saved. Them leaving us showed they had no part in the truth." Thats what they would say about a poor little lamb that was driven away.
How many times have I heard that! Where do they get these ideas?

To give up what we hold most dear is far more Biblical than clinging to tradition. :thumbsup:

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

In doing so we must create a new church: the church of the individual; a church which only individuals can enter; a church which the crowd as the crowd cannot see.

Now I realise that many Christians may start reacting to the INDIVIDUALISM you promote here, isn't it what Jesus did?
I mean, he send Holy Spirit and he himself buggered off to heaven so that WE would ALL be PRIESTS... while I still think accountabiblity is essential to be a Christian (or samurai/druid/jedi/lego-er/curryeater/artist - as i tend to label myself) this issue of TRUSTING people to be RESPONSIBLE for their OWN SALVATION is the whole [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] point!

EMPOWERMENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL COUPLED WITH TRUST-EARNED ACCOUNTABILITY. WITH JESUS.

There's Church.

[Received]

Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes

The most enlightening thread ever.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Agreed.

[Received]

Why do we need individualism -- the flourishing of the individual at the death of the church (or the view of theological fascism wherein the individual is negated by being considered a part of the "crowd" of the church)? Because God makes particular demands for each person, the refusal to follow resulting in sin, the ignorance of (by virtue of being lost in the crowd) a form of foundational despair; and how much truth is there in the crowd? None. "Where the crowd is there is untruth" (Kierkegaard) and this, among other reasons, the sense of groupthink that unconsciously grows there.

[heron]

Jesus buggered. (The second shortest verse in the Bible.)

It's interesting that some writers analyzing church trends see this as an era of individualism, while those inside churches struggle with the opposite.

Moses held himself accountable. Elijah certainly did. Jonah tried. Joseph traded flags over it. Noah and Abraham held up their individual convictions for decades, despite mockery. Hosea...I won't even get into that one.

[truthteller]

..Individualism....so that WE would ALL be PRIESTS... while I still think accountabiblity is essential to be a Christian (or samurai/druid/jedi/lego-er/curryeater/artist - as i tend to label myself) this issue of TRUSTING people to be RESPONSIBLE for their OWN SALVATION is the whole [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] point!

A Samurai or Druid or Jedi or Lego-er or Curryeater or Artist who rejects the salvation offerred in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for his sins is "condemned already".

John 3:36 He that hath the Son hath life. He that hath not the Son hath not life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

EMPOWERMENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL COUPLED WITH TRUST-EARNED ACCOUNTABILITY. WITH JESUS. There's Church.

The power of the individual comes from one external source only: Jesus Christ. "I will build my church of living stones". But He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh unto the Father but by Him.

Once you are born again into the new life that Jesus gives you, you grow in both learning and accountability. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept, like it says in Isaiah. It is impossible to have faith without the Word.

The Church in Acts met in homes for sure. But they took their Bibles with them.

--Alan

[truthteller]

Why do we need individualism -- the flourishing of the individual at the death of the church (or the view of theological fascism wherein the individual is negated by being considered a part of the "crowd" of the church)? Because God makes particular demands for each person, the refusal to follow resulting in sin, the ignorance of (by virtue of being lost in the crowd) a form of foundational despair; and how much truth is there in the crowd? None. "Where the crowd is there is untruth" (Kierkegaard) and this, among other reasons, the sense of groupthink that unconsciously grows there.

Broad is the way, narrow is the gate, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be that go in therat.

But also, "He must increase, but I must decrease", said John the Baptist, who among us can say he is greater. "Christ in you, the hope of glory".

Like Dwight L. Moody said, the only Bible most people read is the one in (our) shoe leather.

-Alan

[truthteller]

Moses held himself accountable. Elijah certainly did. Jonah tried. Joseph traded flags over it. Noah and Abraham held up their individual convictions for decades, despite mockery. Hosea...I won't even get into that one.

The entire united tribes of Israel were accountable to Moses, as God's prophet, and there were thousands who were swallowed up and destroyed for their murmuring against him, and even his second, and brother, Aaron, along with his sister, Marian, were struck with leprosy seven days for questioning that very relationship of accountability. And Moses had his: denied entry to the Promised Land itself. The prophets of Elijah's day, including Elishah, answered to him. Nineveh had to heed the warning brought them by Jonah.

Hosea obeyed God in the matter, if you're referring to the prostitute wife. Maybe someday you'll get to be humbled enough to know you have to depend on God. Then there's David, who had to answer to Nathan the prophet, even though he was king.

Then there are the Biblical verses about God setting up teachers, evangelists, prophets, and so on, and there's no more an expiration date on that than there is on faith for miracles and healing.

Doesn't mean they have to meet inside a building that they have to call a church. Despite God allowing the construction of Solomon's temple, Stephen in Acts 6 quoted God's retort to David on the idea, how God "dwelleth not in temples made with hands".

--Alan

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

The Church in Acts met in homes for sure. But they took their Bibles with them.

--Alan

Really? And I thought the NT was written way, way after that lot were dust!

Hey, matey, NP. Rejecting Jesus will obviously degate a relationship with him. But only Jesus can judge who has done this. All we can do is look at the outside - which never show a lot really - God looks at the heart... I'd still look for Jesus with the world, than not. But thanks anyway ;)

[M Paul]

Here's a 16th century wood cut (http://www.wwnorton.com/nael/16century/topic_2/illustrations/imsink.htm)that still seems applicable to today.

Regards,

Paul

[heron]

Maybe someday you'll get to be humbled enough to know you have to depend on God.Where did that come from??? You're judging my life from one paragraph?

[New_Wineskin]

Once you are born again into the new life that Jesus gives you, you grow in both learning and accountability. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept, like it says in Isaiah. It is impossible to have faith without the Word.

The Church in Acts met in homes for sure. But they took their Bibles with them.

--Alan

Faith comes by hearing by the Word of God - not the "bible" .

[Petrarch]

I have a question.



I been seeing posts in this section where a poster doesn’t like other Christians pushing the idea one must go to church. OK being pushy is bad. But:



My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?



I am sure this question will be interpreted as an attack by some, but so what! I just want to understand the rationale behind the home church idea.



My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian. Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community. If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship, counsel or salvation can simply give the church a call and find someone to talk to. I don’t this as being possible with a home fellowship group.

As someone who has just ended more than ten years of not attending church services of any kind, I think I can answer the question. Sometimes, the experiences at church can be unpleasent. My parents stopped attending church when they had problems with the pastors at two churches they tried. Sometimes, the beliefs that are preached at a particular church can be problematic for a believer, something my sister has posted about at CF. For me, I found there were concerns about congergation size, given how I am a very introverted person, and pefer engaging in the sort of worship that Jesus mentioned in Mark 6.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

http://www.wwnorton.com/nael/images/16thC/sink.jpg

Thanks M!!!!

And adding to Petrach, some people actually feel called by God to leave their local church context in order to save their relationship with Jesus.

[heron]

Truthteller, I believe those examples you gave can be interpreted many ways. Moses organized over two million people, and he was their governmental system. The exodus wasn't just about faith, but governing an entire community that had been uprooted.

Experientially, I must say that whenever a leader has promoted or imposed the teaching of covering, especially in asking a member's independent ministry to come under the authority of the church, I have watched that ministry crumble.

Scripturally, Jesus sent his disciples out into the towns to minister to people independently. If we cluster in our churches and check every action we take with someone who doesn't know the situation, we will move forward as slowly as [a certain organization that forgot that civil unrest and human baseness could enter into the swirling mix.]

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Agreed eron. Nice one.

There is great fear in the church of the individual.
Odd really, when Jesus cared so much for our individual rights that he gave us Holy Spirit.
Always confused me that one has... while we are called to disciple one another, we are not asked to depersonalise ourselves. If anything, Holy Spirit makes our faith more personal than most.

God trusts humans with God's plan. Let's do God proud!

[M Paul]

Agreed eron. Nice one.

There is great fear in the church of the individual.
Odd really, when Jesus cared so much for our individual rights that he gave us Holy Spirit.
Always confused me that one has... while we are called to disciple one another, we are not asked to depersonalise ourselves. If anything, Holy Spirit makes our faith more personal than most.

God trusts humans with God's plan. Let's do God proud!

There is a type of fear of the individual in the traditional church. However, those who advocate focusing on the individual outside of the traditional church seem to be really fueling the fire. The way they express the issue very often makes it seem they are upholding some kind of me first egomania. The idea in the house church movement is to have approaches individualized, to focus on the individual in communicating, but not in any way to put oneself above others. Thus, in a Christian sense, the advocacy itself seems disgusting, and I'm not sure if it's because of poor expression or if it is truly selfish at times.

Regards,

Paul

[buffedstuff]

-------------------------

[SNPete]

Agreed eron. Nice one.

There is great fear in the church of the individual.
Odd really, when Jesus cared so much for our individual rights that he gave us Holy Spirit.
Always confused me that one has... while we are called to disciple one another, we are not asked to depersonalise ourselves. If anything, Holy Spirit makes our faith more personal than most.

God trusts humans with God's plan. Let's do God proud!Why do you have a girl CF character in her underwear?

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

A long story. I personally dont like CF characters, but a friend sent me a turban in relation to another post and so i thought i'd get a body... when i have enough points i'll stick it in a radiation suit as all the other bodies suck IMO.

nothing?

[BeforeThereWas]

just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?

Would it not seem strange to you if you heard me state that I'm going to humanity this Sunday morning? I'm human, so how do I go to myself? :P

I am sure this question will be interpreted as an attack by some, but so what! I just want to understand the rationale behind the home church idea.

No problem. It was a legitimate question that got a legitimate answer.

My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian.

Only if you believe that blanket statements like this have any real merit in and of themselves.

Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community.

Yes, it is only one among many that can reach out to the community.

If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship,

Now I have a question for you. How does one fellowship with the backs of other people's heads. Just a question, not an attack.

BTW

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I like the way the OP asks what's wrong with going to Church and then asks why be part of a House Church - as if a House Church isn't Church! It's very funny.

(Dread to think what the OP makes of what our Church did!)

[BeforeThereWas]

I like the way the OP asks what's wrong with going to Church and then asks why be part of a House Church - as if a House Church isn't Church! It's very funny.

(Dread to think what the OP makes of what our Church did!)

Well, exploding the three little pigs was indeed a novel idea. :clap:

BTW

[Quentin]

What's wrong with going to Church? Nothing except one thing:

The Church is the body of Christ, NOT a buidling.

[Godzchild]

Now I have a question for you. How does one fellowship with the backs of other people's heads.

Good point!!!!!!

[Godzchild]

Once you are born again into the new life that Jesus gives you, you grow in both learning and accountability. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept, like it says in Isaiah. It is impossible to have faith without the Word.-

John 1 v 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH GOD and the Word WAS GOD. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us....

The Church in Acts met in homes for sure. But they took their Bibles with them.

There was no such thing as a bible - they did, however, have the Word in them though.

[BeforeThereWas]

What's wrong with going to Church? Nothing except one thing:

The Church is the body of Christ, NOT a buidling.

Yes, but it can be difficult trying to explain this to someone who routinely hands over the primary portion of their giving to organized religion, most of which abuses that giving rather than using it to help others by meeting their needs.

Most attenders and supporters of organized religion don't seem to realize that they are giving to something from which they reap direct benefit. If I were to do that same thing for any other organization, such as a country club that has, for example, a few tokens of charitable outreach, and maybe a few token evangelistic expenditures, I would be looked down upon by most, and rightfully so. Strangely, though, attendees of organized religion somehow wash their hands clean of the same sin just because they are giving to something with the label "church" slapped onto its name.

I could take my local country club and slap the term "church" in its name, and just about have the same thing...as long as I hire a professional clergy class of people to run it, and pattern its operations in conformity to the tradition of churchianity. So, would I then be justified in handing over the primary portion of my giving to such a thing? Not at all, but it all hinges upon how it is viewed, how much sparkle and glitter it has, and the quality of suits the ushers wear, therefore aligning themselves closer to being Levites. :P

To put the question,"What's wrong with going to church"? into sharper focus and contrast, it should be asked, "What's right with 'going to church?'" We have the freedom to go almost anywhere. The difference is in what we do at any given location to which we travel. Religious exercise is just that.....religious. Anyone can go through those motions. It's easy. Getting down into the filth and mire of the trenches is a whole different matter, however. Entering into a place where relationship is real, well, that sometimes exacts a cost too great for those who prefer to fade into the woodwork and let the professional clergy class do their work for them.

This is by no means an exhastive overview, and it certainly does no justice for those organizations that truly are busying themselves about the work of the Lord, but they are few and far betweenm, and an increasing rarity.

As you have probably noticed, the blitz and glitz of organized religion no longer holds sway over my viewpoint. I am no longer blinded by such shallow visions. Heaven is so much more than what most of organized reliiogn could ever hope to represent. Heaven is the smile of a poor child who is given food and shoes who had almost nothing before. Heaven is relfected in the tears of grartitude rolling down the cheecks of a poor, single mother's face who is relieved of the burden of her bills, even if for just a few months, and who is given food to fill the shelves of her small kitchen.

What's wrong with going to "church". Well, as the old saying goes, "There's no right and positive answer to the wrong question."

BTW

[ThankyouJesus]

There is nothing wrong with it ~ for me it is just not being closer to him, I do not feel it ~ especially as a new comer ~ you are treated like you do not have a enough faith, or have not earned it ~ that is how I felt ~ to be honest ~ I get more daily at home ~ with no idols/looking at anything ~ just me to him ~

[New_Wineskin]

There is nothing wrong with it ~ for me it is just not being closer to him, I do not feel it ~ especially as a new comer ~ you are treated like you do not have a enough faith, or have not earned it ~ that is how I felt ~ to be honest ~ I get more daily at home ~ with no idols/looking at anything ~ just me to him ~ Wonderful post . :)

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

So I guess it's been said before but CF is just like Church.

In theory all are welcome,but there is a heirarchy according to things like;

Whether you believe exactly what is prescribed by the organisation,
How much you give financially,
How popular your views are,
How well you adhere to the rules.

On this last note, I must say that the problems I encounterin CF are similar to those I have had in Building/Meeting-Focussed Church; As an example;

I sometimes break the "non swearing rule" within the Forum. The reason I am told this is not allowed is because it is against the rules ( which is fair enough) it is then underlined by statements such as, "because this is a Christian Forum,such language is unacceptable" !!!!!!

This is basically a BIG problemwithin Building/Meeting-Led Church, that to impose a cultural rule the church feelsit has to claimthat it is a rule made up by God, Jesus or is the "christian" thing to do!!!!

I wonder if Jesus would have been allowed to call Pharasees a "brood of vipers" if he were posting to themin CF???

Now,don'tget me wrong,I amno better than anyone else,and my own understanding of Jesus is nomore enlightened. But my preferences are mine,not God's or "Christianity's"!! And this is THE major problemwith GOING TO CHURCH (which is an...oxymoron or just plain contradiction!)

Not sure if talikng about CF policies in this way is allowed, but it is relevant to this post!!! When I do something differently to some other Christian or church within THEIR walls (virtual or otherwise) - like the time I was told to take my turban off in David Wilkerson's church in NYC - which apperently was God's house!!!) often the reason given is because it is God's will or some such trash. Honestly,when I am told it is policy,I comply,or not - and face the consequences (as the Bible says to!).

My BIG concern here is this: I'ma big man, long-time Christian who knows their place in Christ - what on Earth happens to a "non-Church" or "non-Christian" who braves the stone-walls of church and commits a cultural faux-pas? Where is the all-loving Christ reflected in his bride then???

Anyone get me? Sorry for the length of the rant.

[heron]

No-swearing rules sometimes originate with the web hosting service that a forum uses.

I agree that heirarchies develop--here, I see it mostly in people with different viewpoints. One can hop from one subforum to another and be annhiliated in one, lauded in another.

Financially here, giving gets you blessings--it keeps the corruption down.

[New_Wineskin]

So I guess it's been said before but CF is just like Church.

In theory all are welcome,but there is a heirarchy according to things like;

Whether you believe exactly what is prescribed by the organisation,
How much you give financially,
How popular your views are,
How well you adhere to the rules.

On this last note, I must say that the problems I encounterin CF are similar to those I have had in Building/Meeting-Focussed Church; As an example;

I sometimes break the "non swearing rule" within the Forum. The reason I am told this is not allowed is because it is against the rules ( which is fair enough) it is then underlined by statements such as, "because this is a Christian Forum,such language is unacceptable" !!!!!!

This is basically a BIG problemwithin Building/Meeting-Led Church, that to impose a cultural rule the church feelsit has to claimthat it is a rule made up by God, Jesus or is the "christian" thing to do!!!!

I wonder if Jesus would have been allowed to call Pharasees a "brood of vipers" if he were posting to themin CF???

Now,don'tget me wrong,I amno better than anyone else,and my own understanding of Jesus is nomore enlightened. But my preferences are mine,not God's or "Christianity's"!! And this is THE major problemwith GOING TO CHURCH (which is an...oxymoron or just plain contradiction!)

Not sure if talikng about CF policies in this way is allowed, but it is relevant to this post!!! When I do something differently to some other Christian or church within THEIR walls (virtual or otherwise) - like the time I was told to take my turban off in David Wilkerson's church in NYC - which apperently was God's house!!!) often the reason given is because it is God's will or some such trash. Honestly,when I am told it is policy,I comply,or not - and face the consequences (as the Bible says to!).

My BIG concern here is this: I'ma big man, long-time Christian who knows their place in Christ - what on Earth happens to a "non-Church" or "non-Christian" who braves the stone-walls of church and commits a cultural faux-pas? Where is the all-loving Christ reflected in his bride then???

Anyone get me? Sorry for the length of the rant.

I was almost finished once and my PC kicked me out .

[New_Wineskin]

I was almost finished once and my PC kicked me out .

Doh!!! It happened again . :(

[New_Wineskin]

Doh!!! It happened again . :(

I will try again later when I cool down . :)

[ThankyouJesus]

I will try again later when I cool down . :)


^_^ ^_^ needed that ~You will come again :thumbsup:

[Buttermilk]

Type it in a word processer document and then copy and paste it ;)

[New_Wineskin]

Type it in a word processer document and then copy and paste it ;)

Thanks . I was actually just about to do so on my first draft when it happened . On the next one , I just started and was thinking that it usually doesn't happen a second time . I will do so the next time . :)

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

;)

[heron]

Try turning off some of the graphics in your cf profile settings...maybe having all those up are slowing things down? (Or turn them off in your browser prefs.)

[lismore]

On a note of constructive criticism.

Having a building which only opens once or twice a week for services is a big waste of a building. If a church was more like a community centre and less like the forbidden city then this would be better.

Imagine if you needed prayer, help, money, counselling for suicidal thoughts a place to sleep- whoever you were- you could head for the church building. If you knew the church was open 24/7 and there for you. if you knew thats what a church was- God's help centre for you. Whoever, whenever, whatever could come. Come all you who are weary and heavy laden! Then you would get the needy and lost coming in. Afterall, thats what Jesus did, met people at their point of need -whenever and whoever!

At the moment the church eats money and puts on a weekly show. They do a couple of outreach projects with a fraction of what they take in and for a couple of hours a week.

Lismore:angel:

[heron]

I was at a church where they considered adding on a room with a separate locking system that could be open all night. The intent was for a 24-hour HOP (house of prayer, as in music and prophetic). I think they gave this up after looking at safety and liability issues, the possibility of people wandering in (cough cough). I've seen this concept work with college library study rooms, with adequate (armed?) security.

I've been in churches with Wednesdays-only, and ones with 18-hour full parking lots. The overactive ones tended to focus inward, get picky, have driven and exhausted members and clergy on the verge of nervous breakdowns. But I agree--businesses use their space.

One church I attended rented the sanctuary to other emerging churches, ones with small enough congregations that they didn't need a full building. This proved a warm ecumenical gesture, and it was nice to bump into others in transit.

These space issues are an incredibly good reason for house churches. They seem related to what God is doing in shaking up a lot of edifices these days...preparing for a different economy or societal situation.

[sk8Joyful]

I have a question.
Yes,
but sadly (as I just found out, for the 5th. time today) -
we are NOT allowed speaking TRUTH. It isn't allowed,
not here.
(but that's OK too; because
I've just discovered the IGNORE- feature. Works Great !)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My question is: just what is wrong with going to church?
Every-thing.
~~~~~~~~
Wherein lies the objection?
See #-1 above:
When only 'popular opinion' matters. Why bother?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian. [/QUOTE]
Yes, *your personal view*: which is obviously Radically-different, from other people's experiences...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community. [/QUOTE]
Assuming 'a Christian wants/needs to be reached out to '.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship, counsel or salvation can simply give the church a call and find someone to talk to. I don’t this as being possible with a home fellowship group. [/QUOTE]
Ah, but
when *Christians can gather in Christ's AGAPE-love* - there's
no further need. So, one doesn't need a "Church".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[discernomatic]

Along the same line of the community center. The RC church here in Italy has something called the oratorio or oratory, started by Don Bosco. An explanation of its beginning is here http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02689d.htm

Every town in Italy that has a RC church - which is practically every town - has at least one oratory. They are nationally linked with one another. They primarily reach out to children. Each year has a different theme for the children. The oratory is synonymous with church grounds. Currently Catholic children have four years of catechism which takes place in the church and oratory. My local oratorio offers courses three days a week after school. Evening courses for adults are often offered as well in the form of catechism or bible studies. They also have fundraising dinners, cake sales and fests every so often. Everything is done on a volunteer basis.

Each oratory has a room with activities such as pool, foosball and the like with a few tables and a snack bar. Oratories are usually open in the afternoons on week days and on Sunday afternoons as well. Adults bring their children to catechism or to play in the afternoon and stay to converse, the elderly meet there as well. Sports teams are arranged for the children such as soccer and volleyball complete with practice and tournaments. Teens hang out there too, although the level of coolness in doing so is negotiable. Towns that have no other activities can benefit from an oratory. The oratories also offer summer camp that ranges from three to six weeks. Proselytization does not take place actively except during the summer camp when mass is visited every day or of course the respective adult courses and catechism.

I think that the idea is great if you want to get the most out of a church building and church grounds already in existence; the idea could be implemented by Protestants as well, although smaller churches would have a harder time doing it. House churches, of course could not because they have no property. I tend to favor the house church model myself, but those with a church building could get more "mileage" out of it by using it for something every day rather than letting it moulder for six days a week.

I also know of two congregations that share the same building because each could not afford one on its own. There is more than enough space and time each week for their respective activities.

[BeforeThereWas]

More and more organizations are opening up their buildings to private school operations, which is a good thing in some respects, and not so good in others. It at least offers an alternative to public schooling. So, at least some are doing something besides letting that thing sit there and rot and rust most of the time.

One does have to admit, however, that much emotion surrounds that thing most call a "church". They fight tooth and nail for the thing, they sink their hard-earned money into it, as if what they made in their paycheck was a form of increase, which it is not.

I can therefore understand the mad drive beyond the bounds of honesty for them to teach the requirement of tithing to their people, although I do not agree. The outlandish expenditures organizations entail in order to survive demand an enormous amount of financial resources to keep it going. That alone speaks of the greed of man for what is beyond reason. Simple buildings can be just as effective tools as extravagent architecture, although far less costly.

What is even more sad is that organizations, especially those that have fancy, overly large buildings, think they represent the Lord who had nowhere to lay His head. If this imagry were not so pathetic in relation to organized religion, then perhaps they might have a stronger claim on legitimacy.

BTW

[SteelDisciple]

I have a question.



I been seeing posts in this section where a poster doesn’t like other Christians pushing the idea one must go to church. OK being pushy is bad. But:



My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?



I am sure this question will be interpreted as an attack by some, but so what! I just want to understand the rationale behind the home church idea.



My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian. Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community. If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship, counsel or salvation can simply give the church a call and find someone to talk to. I don’t this as being possible with a home fellowship group.


Church is mainly for fellowship. But every church i've gone to, i've never found anyone I could get any deep fellowship from. Just the typical "hi, how are you?" I learn more from a particular TV preacher than I do from going to church.

No fellowship..what's the point of going?

[New_Wineskin]

Try turning off some of the graphics in your cf profile settings...maybe having all those up are slowing things down? (Or turn them off in your browser prefs.)

Thanks . I am attempting that now . :)

This may actually help a lot . You win all of my blessings . :)

[New_Wineskin]

On a note of constructive criticism.

Having a building which only opens once or twice a week for services is a big waste of a building. If a church was more like a community centre and less like the forbidden city then this would be better.

Not to mention farmland . I am in a heavy area with many Christian groups and a lot of money and groups are trying to outdo each other . They buy up farmland nad build bigger and bigger buildings and leave the old monstrousities behind . They take away land that could feed the hungry so that they can look big .

[New_Wineskin]

I was at a church where they considered adding on a room with a separate locking system that could be open all night. The intent was for a 24-hour HOP (house of prayer, as in music and prophetic). I think they gave this up after looking at safety and liability issues, the possibility of people wandering in (cough cough). I've seen this concept work with college library study rooms, with adequate (armed?) security.

I've been in churches with Wednesdays-only, and ones with 18-hour full parking lots. The overactive ones tended to focus inward, get picky, have driven and exhausted members and clergy on the verge of nervous breakdowns. But I agree--businesses use their space.

One church I attended rented the sanctuary to other emerging churches, ones with small enough congregations that they didn't need a full building. This proved a warm ecumenical gesture, and it was nice to bump into others in transit.

These space issues are an incredibly good reason for house churches. They seem related to what God is doing in shaking up a lot of edifices these days...preparing for a different economy or societal situation.

That reminds me of when I grew up . It was a town of about 10,000 and well over 90% Catholics . It was split up into three parishes and a main building for each . When I was small , these were open all day ( from what I remember ) . When I was in my late teens , this stopped for some reason . I have always wondered why . We had very little crime and almost all of the citizens were of the same group . I still scratch my head over that . :scratch:

[GlobalNomad1960]

Nice one, but I guess yer American?
I see whatcha saying, after all Homer stayed home on Sundays... gr8 episode!
I'll let some others talk, but I find it intersting how many peeps leave church-organisations to save their relationship with God!!!

As an American, I must say, your comment about Americans is funny and faily accurate. :thumbsup:

GlobalNomad1960

[GlobalNomad1960]

Many episodes of The Simpsons concerning mainstream christianity are "spot on" . If only people in those groups would "get it" . :)

Amen :amen:

[GlobalNomad1960]

What if someone at the time of the Reformation said they don't go to church because of the hypocrites??? At the time it was true that there was a lot of hypocrisy everywhere. Even the RCC had to call for the Counter-Reformation to clean it up. However, the Protestants said the real source of the hypocrisy was that the RCC was based on incorrect theology, on human tradition rather than the Bible alone. Still, for the average attender it must have seemed discouraging.

Some people have tried a lot of local churches, a whole lot, and have found too much hypocrisy, as well as irrelevance. To them, it's not a matter of just trying one more--in a lot of areas, they are all the same. Then, they can just give up, or they can give more thought to how to find a church that is truly spiritual and relevant to their lives. In that thought process, the emergent church movement arouse and continues to acquire energy. People study Scripture to try to understand how church really should be and why so many churches seem dead. And, then they realize the congregational church as it is practiced today isn't in the Bible, that it's just based on human traditions, and that this human focus is in large part why things don't seem truly of the Christian spirit. Then, they try the biblical model of church structure (which is never taught in the congregational church, but still it never left the Bible), and all of a sudden they have a relevant and exciting church experience.

I give these people who don't go to church a break now. I don't judge them. The problem is not them, but a whole lot of patience is needed under their circumstances for them to come to a proper solution to being a part of a spiritual community.

And, I don't judge those people who can't give up their cherished traditions in continuing to attend a church that is really mostly based on human tradition. We are still united in the blood of Christ. They just do church different. Catholics do church very different--but they are still my brothers and sisters in the blood of Christ (but those of the Base Ecclesial movement, the RCC branch of the emergent church, perhaps, are even more so).

Regards,

Paul

Excellent answer, and in love, too!

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

It's true. The important thing to bearinmind in allof our Church-going or leaving is that we are all one body. Personally,I graspthis a wholenot easier now my whole church went unchurched!

[GlobalNomad1960]

Good point!!!!!!

I told the pastor of the instutional church I attend that I am weary of "back-of-the-head" Christianity. I want Jesus and community with the Living Sones of the Church.

[GlobalNomad1960]

On a note of constructive criticism.

Having a building which only opens once or twice a week for services is a big waste of a building. If a church was more like a community centre and less like the forbidden city then this would be better.

Imagine if you needed prayer, help, money, counselling for suicidal thoughts a place to sleep- whoever you were- you could head for the church building. If you knew the church was open 24/7 and there for you. if you knew thats what a church was- God's help centre for you. Whoever, whenever, whatever could come. Come all you who are weary and heavy laden! Then you would get the needy and lost coming in. Afterall, thats what Jesus did, met people at their point of need -whenever and whoever!

At the moment the church eats money and puts on a weekly show. They do a couple of outreach projects with a fraction of what they take in and for a couple of hours a week.

Lismore:angel:

AMEN! :amen: :clap:

[GlobalNomad1960]

Church is mainly for fellowship. But every church i've gone to, i've never found anyone I could get any deep fellowship from. Just the typical "hi, how are you?" I learn more from a particular TV preacher than I do from going to church.

No fellowship..what's the point of going?

Good point. It has taken us YEARS to met people with whom we could "conncect." Then, at least one of those people is looking to attend a home church, as am my wife and I, but we are all wondering when will we be ready? Until that day, with God's guidance, we meet on Tuesdays and do expository Bible study and praying for one another.:groupray:
It helps. Keep us in your prayers.

GlobalNomad1960

[GlobalNomad1960]

Not to mention farmland . I am in a heavy area with many Christian groups and a lot of money and groups are trying to outdo each other . They buy up farmland nad build bigger and bigger buildings and leave the old monstrousities behind . They take away land that could feed the hungry so that they can look big .

That is a shame.

[BeforeThereWas]

I told the pastor of the instutional church I attend that I am weary of "back-of-the-head" Christianity. I want Jesus and community with the Living Sones of the Church.

I would venture to say that your comments were not well received. Organizational leadership tend to accept only the criticisms that do not indicate a need for THEM to change in a way that removes the limelight from THEM. I actually suggested once to the organization my wife attends that they do away with those wooden pews, purchase Lazy-Boy recliners, and sit together like a family. Well, that was not at all well received. It went mostly ignored, so I stopped going. It has disturbed my wife ever since. I told her that I am not angry with them, but that they are doing what they want to do, and I simply choose not to be a part of it. I doubt she will ever get over her difficulty with my decision, especially considering that she is related in some way to almost everyone in that group.

BTW

[New_Wineskin]

I told the pastor of the instutional church I attend that I am weary of "back-of-the-head" Christianity. I want Jesus and community with the Living Sones of the Church.

I can imagine the person thinking : But you get to see *my* face ! Isn't *that* enough ? ;)

[discernomatic]

Good point. It has taken us YEARS to met people with whom we could "conncect." Then, at least one of those people is looking to attend a home church, as am my wife and I, but we are all wondering when will we be ready? Until that day, with God's guidance, we meet on Tuesdays and do expository Bible study and praying for one another.:groupray:
It helps. Keep us in your prayers.
Sure, I'll keep you in my prayers, but I don't see why you want a change. Your group sounds like heaven to me already. I think you already have a house church. Just be careful about using existing prepared programs. All purport to genuinely and sincerely assist believers, but at least some of them just want to gather and control the "unchurched". I am thinking of founding such a group as you already have. At the moment I have - count 'em - "one", "two" Christian friends living nearby that desperately want me to become a member of their church. I attend occasionally just to be with my friends, but they teach false doctrine there. That church is not an option for me.

[GlobalNomad1960]

I can imagine the person thinking : But you get to see *my* face ! Isn't *that* enough ? ;)

LOL. Actually, I think he thinks he is doing what he is called to do. He's a good guy. He sortof used the phrase from the stage on a Sunday morning emploring people to "do life together" and to interact beyond Sunday mornings.

By the way, have any of you read any Frank Viola's books??

GN1960

[SteelDisciple]

Going to church i've found that alot of christians tend to be bland, uninteresting people who prefer to stay in their cliques rather then venture out and meet new people... :/

[New_Wineskin]

LOL. Actually, I think he thinks he is doing what he is called to do. He's a good guy. He sortof used the phrase from the stage on a Sunday morning emploring people to "do life together" and to interact beyond Sunday mornings.


Interesting . Yeah . He is only a product of the system . I find it interesting that these people will encourage "community" beyond Sunday but there is little during that Sunady meeting . *That* is a huge part of the problem that they don't see .



By the way, have any of you read any Frank Viola's books??


I met him once and I was on a mailing list with him for a while . I won't read his books for good reason . Somehow , I was on a mailing list for his books . I replied that I didn't wish to be on a mailing list for his books and was given a reply that they were sorry that I believed the bad reports concerning him . I didn't mention a thing about any bad reports . I found some people who knew what was going on and , because of that reply , it appears that they are accurate .

[discernomatic]

I just went to Frank Viola's website and found an interview promoting one of his books. A small analysis may give insight. http://www.openheaven.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=5727&PN=1:
"I have watched people try to start their own house churches who were not called or qualified to do it.In every case, I saw nothing good come of it. Most of these groups were simply glorified Bible studies that were facilitated by the person who started the group....We made many mistakes and tried some very foolish things. But we learned. And in the midst of it we touched authentic Body life......We need a new seeing of the Lord Jesus Christ and of God’s eternal purpose which is in Him.....In other words, we need those who are able to impart life, to cast vision, and to provide practical tools that will put believers into the living reality of that vision."

I am reading a work by someone that uses similar reasoning so picked up on some things right away.

1. First you see what I call a double insult. (Sometimes such statements can be phrased as a compliment hiding an insult.) Those who tried to start house churches without what he names "calling" and "qualification" are doomed to fail, so don't even try. At the same time he insults the concept of bible studies as being something inferior to the house church idea that he is proposing. He is also implying that a bible study cannot be a house church. Why not? "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." Matthew 18:20. With Mr. Viola as subject of the interview, the reader is to accept his authority on the matter and apply it to all that is being said.

2. He admits to making mistakes and being foolish. In this case this is a tactic to wake sympathy in the reader. Other ways of doing this are telling jokes or stories about ones failures, not simply out of honesty, but for a reason - to create sympathy or even empathy. If the reader can sympathize with the author for whatever reason, he will more likely accept what that person has to say.

3. He then states that he found an answer, he "touched authentic Body life". This statement will especially appeal to and draw the emotionally motivated, which are often the easiest to manipulate. He claims to have found the real thing, as so many do, which may trap the so-called "seeker".

4. For the first half of the article he is dismantling the concepts that many think of that hold to the traditional way of conducting a church body. He attacks all groups whether Protestant or Catholic, Charismatic, Third-Wave or traditional. He is performing a miniature version of Schein's stages of cult manipulation called Unfreezing, Changing and Refreezing. For a table see: http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html it will be the second table on the page or (http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html%20it%20will%20be%20the%20second%20table%20on%20the%20page%20or) go to my page: http://www.jamesfive19.com/Abuse_of_Pastoral_Authority.html and scroll down to find the table. Make a person unsure of what he thinks of as secure, manipulate him into considering another option and then make sure he keeps that new position. In this case there was probably an offer for his book after the interview which, if bought, would refreeze the person's mode of thought to Frank Victor's view of things. In fact the interview was a miniature version of what is said to be contained in the book.

5. The Changing takes place in all of the above statements but especially with the ones about a need for a new way of seeing God's eternal purpose...after disposing of the old-fasioned, inefficient, undesireable ways, he offers a ray of light that one can grasp for. He tries to impart a new vision that seems brighter and clearer to the reader than that which has been denounced. And who is going to lead this new order? The key phrase is: "We need those who are able....to provide practical tools that will put believers into the living reality of that vision." And that, of course, means him and his materials and program.

The whole article was a sales pitch, offering to impart life and a new vision of God's eternal purpose. That of course costs money (although I ask myself why it should have to, the Holy Spirit didn't cost anything).

I have nothing against people offering products if they can deliver. But in spiritual matters these things can be very dubious. And if someone is purposefully trying to manipulate me in the way I described above, I have a good reason not to trust him from the beginning. And I have not even gotten into Frank Viola's theology yet! This is just the beginning of the analysis process.

[GlobalNomad1960]

I just went to Frank Viola's website and found an interview promoting one of his books. A small analysis may give insight. http://www.openheaven.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=5727&PN=1:
"I have watched people try to start their own house churches who were not called or qualified to do it.In every case, I saw nothing good come of it. Most of these groups were simply glorified Bible studies that were facilitated by the person who started the group....We made many mistakes and tried some very foolish things. But we learned. And in the midst of it we touched authentic Body life......We need a new seeing of the Lord Jesus Christ and of God’s eternal purpose which is in Him.....In other words, we need those who are able to impart life, to cast vision, and to provide practical tools that will put believers into the living reality of that vision."

I am reading a work by someone that uses similar reasoning so picked up on some things right away.

1. First you see what I call a double insult. (Sometimes such statements can be phrased as a compliment hiding an insult.) Those who tried to start house churches without what he names "calling" and "qualification" are doomed to fail, so don't even try. At the same time he insults the concept of bible studies as being something inferior to the house church idea that he is proposing. He is also implying that a bible study cannot be a house church. Why not? "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." Matthew 18:20. With Mr. Viola as subject of the interview, the reader is to accept his authority on the matter and apply it to all that is being said.

2. He admits to making mistakes and being foolish. In this case this is a tactic to wake sympathy in the reader. Other ways of doing this are telling jokes or stories about ones failures, not simply out of honesty, but for a reason - to create sympathy or even empathy. If the reader can sympathize with the author for whatever reason, he will more likely accept what that person has to say.

3. He then states that he found an answer, he "touched authentic Body life". This statement will especially appeal to and draw the emotionally motivated, which are often the easiest to manipulate. He claims to have found the real thing, as so many do, which may trap the so-called "seeker".

4. For the first half of the article he is dismantling the concepts that many think of that hold to the traditional way of conducting a church body. He attacks all groups whether Protestant or Catholic, Charismatic, Third-Wave or traditional. He is performing a miniature version of Schein's stages of cult manipulation called Unfreezing, Changing and Refreezing. For a table see: http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html it will be the second table on the page or (http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html%20it%20will%20be%20the%20second%20table%20on%20the%20page%20or) go to my page: http://www.jamesfive19.com/Abuse_of_Pastoral_Authority.html and scroll down to find the table. Make a person unsure of what he thinks of as secure, manipulate him into considering another option and then make sure he keeps that new position. In this case there was probably an offer for his book after the interview which, if bought, would refreeze the person's mode of thought to Frank Victor's view of things. In fact the interview was a miniature version of what is said to be contained in the book.

5. The Changing takes place in all of the above statements but especially with the ones about a need for a new way of seeing God's eternal purpose...after disposing of the old-fasioned, inefficient, undesireable ways, he offers a ray of light that one can grasp for. He tries to impart a new vision that seems brighter and clearer to the reader than that which has been denounced. And who is going to lead this new order? The key phrase is: "We need those who are able....to provide practical tools that will put believers into the living reality of that vision." And that, of course, means him and his materials and program.

The whole article was a sales pitch, offering to impart life and a new vision of God's eternal purpose. That of course costs money (although I ask myself why it should have to, the Holy Spirit didn't cost anything).

I have nothing against people offering products if they can deliver. But in spiritual matters these things can be very dubious. And if someone is purposefully trying to manipulate me in the way I described above, I have a good reason not to trust him from the beginning. And I have not even gotten into Frank Viola's theology yet! This is just the beginning of the analysis process.

Please provide your analogy of the theology?

[BeforeThereWas]

I just went to Frank Viola's website and found an interview promoting one of his books.

Ah, yes. Frank Viola, and gang. Frank Viola is a product of Gene Edwards, and his eletist crowd of thinkers. They view themselves as being some of the only TRUE "church planters" on this continent. They have even traveled to Romania to foist their experiment upon a group over there, that way they would not have to face charges here where they live. (Just kidding.) There are others who have been very successful in planting functional home fellowships that have been together for more than 15 years now, and those people didn't have to move into the same neighborhood community, within a stone's throw of each other, for it to work. Gene and Frank's systems are very dependent upon locational structuring of the people. One of the difficulties with this is that most families are not able to move into neighborhoods with higher-end housing, so those of better means must step down into more shabby housing and neighborhoods in order to be a part of such an endeavor. To Gene and Frank, this is trivial, which is understandable to those who have always been pretty much stuck to living in shabby conditions.

I could go on for hours, having spent time with Gene, Tim, Frank, and some of their groups. They are not at all the shining stars these men make them out to be. In print, they make it all look like it is a sure thing with the right leaders at the helm trained and approved by the elite of this system.

I will admit that I learned much from these men, but you know, if these men truly had a handle on conquering human nature like they think they have, then the Lord pales in comparison, because He could not conquer the fallen human condition until He went to the Cross. All these guys do is orchestrate a system of thought that still has not proven itself. I looked upon their "evidence" in places like Atlanta (which fell apart, reformed, and then fell apart again), Chicago (which was in serious crisis and was in the advance stages of breaking apart when I visited), Denver (which had some serious problems that were VERY evident to the careful observer) and Texas (which has no real, genuine and steady membership).

Sorry, Gene, Frank, Tim and gang. I've looked upon, and spent time with, your "shining stars," and that "shine" was mostly reflections from other more stable elements that you had nothing at all to do with in creating.

Those men will never be able to effectively steal the glory that belongs only to the Lord.

BTW

[BeforeThereWas]

I just went to Frank Viola's website and found an interview promoting one of his books.

The website you provided the link for outlines the tactical cult methodology very similar to the tactics taught to "ministers" who attend seminary. How very interesting. :idea:

BTW

[discernomatic]

Please provide your analogy of the theology?
I have not gotten around to writing about him yet and do not have the time nor the space to put a full article in here. But from surfing around his site, I think that it is quite clear that he is one of the "Joel's army" proponents, a known false doctrine. Here an excerpt from: A Major Shift Has Occurred In The Spiritual Realm - Ron McGatlin, http://www.openheaven.com/articles/kingdom_revival/article.asp?id=106. "They are destined to become "New Jerusalem" people of God - the heart of the true spiritual Israel of God - the "Christ in you" people - the "Joel's army" who will become the defenders of the faith - the warriors of God, the intercessors that will claim the kingdoms of this world for the kingdom of our God. These are the ones in whom Christ dwells and to whom a door into heavenly oneness with God is opening wide."
Just the emotional, dreamy and idealized style of the language gives away much if you read further on in the article. I have met people so deep in that kind of deception that they are unable to converse or think normally anymore, they start trailing off in euphoric and idealized statements that have been fed to them at church. I think that this particular house church program is nothing different than the deceptions offered in some churches, the only difference is that you buy it and eat it at home, like take-out pizza.

Here are some links about the "Joel's army/Sons of God/Latter Rain/Spiritual Warfare" concept:
http://www.intotruth.org/res/lastdl3.html
http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain10.htm
http://www.cephasministry.com/index_joels_army.html
And Kindom Now Theology/Dominion/Reconstructionism concept:
http://www.intotruth.org/res/kt1.html
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l04.html
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/ChRecon.html

The above concepts are all linked to a large degree. They are being offered regularly in some mainline and independent churches and now, apparently as a part of home church packages. Where these concepts are offered makes no difference, they are false doctrine. If you analyze Viola's statements carefully, he is offering his system to the unchurched, those that feel disgruntled by and dissatisfied with the traditional church system. But it is my opinion that if anyone buys into his system, they will go from the frying pan into the fire. I favor home churches as a concept, especially for those trying to avoid false doctrine in larger churches, but I would stay as far away from this sort of doctrine as possible.

[discernomatic]

The website you provided the link for outlines the tactical cult methodology very similar to the tactics taught to "ministers" who attend seminary. How very interesting. :idea:

BTW
Oooh! How nasty! What seminary? :eek:

[GlobalNomad1960]

Thanks to everyone for your insightful input. God bless.

GN1960

[SteelDisciple]

you know..i'm amazed at how many christians come up with so many stupid ideas. Like cussing being alright in the eyes of God...or living with your girlfriend and not marrying them...or that the bible isn't completely true (of course the only parts that are wrong are the parts that disagree with their lifestyle)

The best way to stay right with God is to follow God's word...NOT get into other garbage that's written by OTHER people...and to let the Holy Spirit guide you and answer the questions you have about God's word. The Holy Spirit is an undeniable presence. All you have to do is pray and ask and God WILL tell you. It's as simple as that...people try to look into theolgy and other books to get the answers when they have a direct connection with God to ask him anything and He will answer. Man...people are really screwed up.

[New_Wineskin]

I just went to Frank Viola's website and found an interview promoting one of his books. A small analysis may give insight. http://www.openheaven.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=5727&PN=1:
"I have watched people try to start their own house churches who were not called or qualified to do it.In every case, I saw nothing good come of it. Most of these groups were simply glorified Bible studies that were facilitated by the person who started the group....We made many mistakes and tried some very foolish things. But we learned. And in the midst of it we touched authentic Body life......We need a new seeing of the Lord Jesus Christ and of God’s eternal purpose which is in Him.....In other words, we need those who are able to impart life, to cast vision, and to provide practical tools that will put believers into the living reality of that vision."

I am reading a work by someone that uses similar reasoning so picked up on some things right away.

1. First you see what I call a double insult. (Sometimes such statements can be phrased as a compliment hiding an insult.) Those who tried to start house churches without what he names "calling" and "qualification" are doomed to fail, so don't even try. At the same time he insults the concept of bible studies as being something inferior to the house church idea that he is proposing. He is also implying that a bible study cannot be a house church. Why not? "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." Matthew 18:20. With Mr. Viola as subject of the interview, the reader is to accept his authority on the matter and apply it to all that is being said.

2. He admits to making mistakes and being foolish. In this case this is a tactic to wake sympathy in the reader. Other ways of doing this are telling jokes or stories about ones failures, not simply out of honesty, but for a reason - to create sympathy or even empathy. If the reader can sympathize with the author for whatever reason, he will more likely accept what that person has to say.

3. He then states that he found an answer, he "touched authentic Body life". This statement will especially appeal to and draw the emotionally motivated, which are often the easiest to manipulate. He claims to have found the real thing, as so many do, which may trap the so-called "seeker".

4. For the first half of the article he is dismantling the concepts that many think of that hold to the traditional way of conducting a church body. He attacks all groups whether Protestant or Catholic, Charismatic, Third-Wave or traditional. He is performing a miniature version of Schein's stages of cult manipulation called Unfreezing, Changing and Refreezing. For a table see: http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html it will be the second table on the page or (http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html%20it%20will%20be%20the%20second%20table%20on%20the%20page%20or) go to my page: http://www.jamesfive19.com/Abuse_of_Pastoral_Authority.html and scroll down to find the table. Make a person unsure of what he thinks of as secure, manipulate him into considering another option and then make sure he keeps that new position. In this case there was probably an offer for his book after the interview which, if bought, would refreeze the person's mode of thought to Frank Victor's view of things. In fact the interview was a miniature version of what is said to be contained in the book.

5. The Changing takes place in all of the above statements but especially with the ones about a need for a new way of seeing God's eternal purpose...after disposing of the old-fasioned, inefficient, undesireable ways, he offers a ray of light that one can grasp for. He tries to impart a new vision that seems brighter and clearer to the reader than that which has been denounced. And who is going to lead this new order? The key phrase is: "We need those who are able....to provide practical tools that will put believers into the living reality of that vision." And that, of course, means him and his materials and program.

The whole article was a sales pitch, offering to impart life and a new vision of God's eternal purpose. That of course costs money (although I ask myself why it should have to, the Holy Spirit didn't cost anything).

I have nothing against people offering products if they can deliver. But in spiritual matters these things can be very dubious. And if someone is purposefully trying to manipulate me in the way I described above, I have a good reason not to trust him from the beginning. And I have not even gotten into Frank Viola's theology yet! This is just the beginning of the analysis process.

While I may not agree with everything that you wrote , I agree with several . I do see the tactics of those promoting his book as being something to bring in money . I actually suggested that he put his writings online and free of charge . The result was people going after me . As far as *I* am concerned , if people *need* something in this way , to demand money shows that they are not interested in the people or they really don't need it . Something is up . It is the same old traditional way of doing things .

[New_Wineskin]

The best way to stay right with God is to follow God's word...


I am not into following the written code .


NOT get into other garbage that's written by OTHER people...and to let the Holy Spirit guide you


Amen , to that . :)

[New_Wineskin]

The website you provided the link for outlines the tactical cult methodology very similar to the tactics taught to "ministers" who attend seminary. How very interesting. :idea:

BTWI agree that there are similarities .

[discernomatic]

The website you provided the link for outlines the tactical cult methodology very similar to the tactics taught to "ministers" who attend seminary. How very interesting. :idea:
I also meant to ask if there is a way to get hold of that kind of material. Could you recommend a book or two where such tactics are described? If you have any notes or sheets saved up from seminary I wouldn't mind paying for a copy and postage.

[SteelDisciple]

I am not into following the written code .



Amen , to that . :)


All you need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit...if you lack either of those...well...you are in big trouble. (not YOU you...you as in generally speaking :)

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

All you need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit...if you lack either of those...well...you are in big trouble. :)

Must disagree a bit here.

Holy Spirit is essential, yes. Bible? Didn't Paul say that the wordof God (in this case meaning what he had of the Bible!) is USEFUL for instruction, not ESSENTIAL.

Just saying is all.

[SteelDisciple]

Must disagree a bit here.

Holy Spirit is essential, yes. Bible? Didn't Paul say that the wordof God (in this case meaning what he had of the Bible!) is USEFUL for instruction, not ESSENTIAL.

Just saying is all.


That's where people get screwed up. How are you going to learn anything about God without His instructions? It would be like trying to follow the 10 Commandments (just an example) without ever having read them. :P

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

EXACTLY!!!!
HolySpirit!!!!
lol

[SteelDisciple]

EXACTLY!!!!
HolySpirit!!!!
lol


OK, I think I get what you are saying..I hope. =P

The Holy Spirit is essential because it's the only way to read the Bible. Without it you are guessing. Right?

[New_Wineskin]

All you need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit...if you lack either of those...well...you are in big trouble. (not YOU you...you as in generally speaking :)

Ok . As long as it is in general and doesn't include *me* ... :)

All *I* need is the Lord . I can lack the law ( ie the "bible" ) without being anywhere near trouble . :)

[bubblegirl23]

I have an immune disfunction so I cannot go to church. God still found me, helped me change and continues to love me.

[SteelDisciple]

Ok . As long as it is in general and doesn't include *me* ... :)

All *I* need is the Lord . I can lack the law ( ie the "bible" ) without being anywhere near trouble . :)

Then how do you get to know God? How do you know His wants for not just your life but the life around you?

Again..how can you follow God's instructions if you haven't read them? :P

[New_Wineskin]

Then how do you get to know God?


I spend time with Him . Abraham hadn't a lick of the Scriptures and the Lord called him His friend . Any instructions that Abraham needed , He gave Himself - the very definition of the "New Covenant" . Abraham was referred to as "our father " in faith .


How do you know His wants for not just your life but the life around you?


The Lord lets me know . I have a relationship with Him . I walk in the Spirit - not the written code .


Again..how can you follow God's instructions if you haven't read them? :P

Read them ? He wasn't written me any instructions . He tells me His instructions .

[SteelDisciple]

I spend time with Him . Abraham hadn't a lick of the Scriptures and the Lord called him His friend . Any instructions that Abraham needed , He gave Himself - the very definition of the "New Covenant" . Abraham was referred to as "our father " in faith .



The Lord lets me know . I have a relationship with Him . I walk in the Spirit - not the written code .



Read them ? He wasn't written me any instructions . He tells me His instructions .

God provided the Bible as a way to grow in Him and to become more like His son Jesus...in order to walk His path. We are to be Christ-Like and in order to do that we need to read from scripture and learn and grow. Yes..talking to God is vital. But God provided THE WORD as a means of learning and growth in Christ His son and in God overall.

Jesus didn't give parables just for the heck of it.:P He did it to teach us...there are many important things God needs us to learn from His Word.

[New_Wineskin]

God provided the Bible as a way to grow in Him and to become more like His son Jesus...in order to walk His path. We are to be Christ-Like and in order to do that we need to read from scripture and learn and grow. Yes..talking to God is vital. But God provided THE WORD as a means of learning and growth in Christ His son and in God overall.

Jesus didn't give parables just for the heck of it.:P He did it to teach us...there are many important things God needs us to learn from His Word.

Well , if He gave you and those with you the "bible" for those things , great . He didn't give *me* the Scriptures for those things . The Scriptures certainly don't say those things about themselves ( at least not in referring to *me* ) . I am a Gentile and of the New Covenant - not the written code .

But , again , I am gald that He gave it to *you* . :sick:

[SteelDisciple]

Well , if He gave you and those with you the "bible" for those things , great . He didn't give *me* the Scriptures for those things . The Scriptures certainly don't say those things about themselves ( at least not in referring to *me* ) . I am a Gentile and of the New Covenant - not the written code .

But , again , I am gald that He gave it to *you* . :sick:


Then...you don't believe in Jesus our Saviour?

[New_Wineskin]

Then...you don't believe in Jesus our Saviour?

So , you are a liar and have decided to slander me ?

[SteelDisciple]

So , you are a liar and have decided to slander me ?


Ya didn't see the question mark? I just asked you a question. Do you believe in Jesus? The reason I ASK is because...how can you believe in someone you don't know anything about because you haven't read about him?

[New_Wineskin]

Ya didn't see the question mark?


If you saw *my* question mark , you would know that I *did* see *yours* .


I just asked you a question.


We both know what you did . *Nothing* that I wrote could be replied to starting with "then" followed by a question about my not believing Jesus when I clearly stated that I knew Him because I have a relationship with Him .


Do you believe in Jesus? The reason I ASK is because...how can you believe in someone you don't know anything about because you haven't read about him?

I know a lot of people who have not written me anything . You are claiming that those who cannot read cannot know the Lord .

Your doctrine does not hold water imo . It certainly isn't supported by the Scriptures which you claim are important . I even gave you evidence *from* the Scriptures that one does not need to read the Scriptures to know Him or about Him .

This topic can have its own thread .

[SteelDisciple]

If you saw *my* question mark , you would know that I *did* see *yours* .



We both know what you did . *Nothing* that I wrote could be replied to starting with "then" followed by a question about my not believing Jesus when I clearly stated that I knew Him because I have a relationship with Him .



I know a lot of people who have not written me anything . You are claiming that those who cannot read cannot know the Lord .

Your doctrine does not hold water imo . It certainly isn't supported by the Scriptures which you claim are important . I even gave you evidence *from* the Scriptures that one does not need to read the Scriptures to know Him or about Him .

This topic can have its own thread .

Doesn't hold water? :P All i'm saying is if you believe in Jesus, then reading about Him and reading his parables are extremely important to understanding and knowing him. They are letters from heaven basically.

If you don't believe in the bible then tell me...what about Revelation? How do you spot the signs to come if you've never read them? Or the life of Jesus..how do you know what Jesus went through in order to save us if you never read about it? Do THOSE hold up water? Those are more than minor details. And if someone never read the bible..they would never have known what Jesus went through...they would never LEARN all the lessons that came out of that situation.

[New_Wineskin]

Doesn't hold water? :P All i'm saying is if you believe in Jesus, then reading about Him and reading his parables are extremely important to understanding and knowing him. They are letters from heaven basically.

If you don't believe in the bible then tell me...what about Revelation? How do you spot the signs to come if you've never read them? Or the life of Jesus..how do you know what Jesus went through in order to save us if you never read about it? Do THOSE hold up water? Those are more than minor details. And if someone never read the bible..they would never have known what Jesus went through...they would never LEARN all the lessons that came out of that situation.

Since you have stuck your tongue at me at least 3 times and since you won't back up your own statements by what you yourself claim to be important before asking me whether I agree with them , I have decided for the sake of peace to no longer read your posts . take care .

[SteelDisciple]

Since you have stuck your tongue at me at least 3 times and since you won't back up your own statements by what you yourself claim to be important before asking me whether I agree with them , I have decided for the sake of peace to no longer read your posts . take care .

Yup. Thought so.

[BeforeThereWas]

Oooh! How nasty! What seminary? :eek:

Almost any of them. They teach their students the art of psychological/emotional manipulation, and mastery of the tools for accomplishing the "worshipful attitude" in their services.

BTW

[BeforeThereWas]

you know..i'm amazed at how many christians come up with so many stupid ideas. Like cussing being alright in the eyes of God...or living with your girlfriend and not marrying them...

Not trying to pick on you, but are you saying that a piece of paper from City Hall legitimizes a marriage in God's eyes? Where is that found in the Bible? Do you know the history of our so-called "marriage license"? Have you ever studied to find it? I can give it to you in a nutshell if you like.

The best way to stay right with God is to follow God's word...NOT get into other garbage that's written by OTHER people...

Yes, but those "other people" are making money on their writings. I mean, look at the tremendous things that have come about from the books on angels (as if there were anything to those screwy ideas). Billy Graham made quite a bit of money from his writing on that subject, although it may very well be utterly false when compared to the reality of the heavenlies and those who dwell therein. But he did make money, and lots of it. Angels just so happened to be a going fad at the moment. I'm sure someone will come up with another new fad bandwagon for famous writers to hop onto and make millions selling in their books.

BTW

[BeforeThereWas]

I also meant to ask if there is a way to get hold of that kind of material. Could you recommend a book or two where such tactics are described? If you have any notes or sheets saved up from seminary I wouldn't mind paying for a copy and postage.

I wish I still had that material, but it was cast out many years ago. One thing I can say is that by observing what's going on today, the academic content of seminaries has come a long way in their methodologies on emotional/psychological manipulation. I see similarities in what was taught way back when, but many advances have been made in the arena of "brainwashing" that was not so effective back then. We were taught, for example, manipulative tactics by use of vocal inflections, and pounding upon the pulpit, both of which pale by comparison to what I am hearing today. They are mastering an art best left alone. It appears that mass hypnotist specialists are now teaching in our seminaries, or are writing the material from which seminaries are teaching. Either way, the rudiments of psychology and psycho-manipulative tactics are being brought to bear upon a dumbed down, unsuspecting mass of people who don't realize what's going on.

Now, I'm not saying that most ministers are using this in a bad way that leads people to do strange things, like what we saw in "Toronto blessing" anomaly, for example. However, in the wrong hands, unsuspecting people have been falling prey to these operators for quite some time, and it will only get worse. There is a United Pentacostal organization down the street whose minister has mastered this dangerous art. He controls those people to an extent that is beyond remarkable.

I thank the Lord for His freedom that He offers to those who will simply accept it.

BTW

[BeforeThereWas]

I spend time with Him . Abraham hadn't a lick of the Scriptures and the Lord called him His friend . Any instructions that Abraham needed , He gave Himself - the very definition of the "New Covenant" . Abraham was referred to as "our father " in faith .

Genesis 26:5 is an interesting read about Abraham and the Law.

BTW

[New_Wineskin]

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Genesis 26:5 is an interesting read about Abraham and the Law.

BTW

Yep . Abraham only had what the Lord gave him . He had a personal relationship and , because of that , *we* receive th