What is Wrong with going to Church?

[Bevlina]

The problem with organised religion is just that, it's organised man made religion. Yep, they preach the Word of God, but how many apply it? It grieves me to see a Sunday angel and a Weekday 'devil'.
In many organised religions, pastors and people will err, it's been happening for centuries. Human beings are just that, human beings with faults, warts and bumps. They are tempted and often give way to temptation. But we have a verse in Corinthians1 ( I think) which states that we will not be tempted above that which we are able to cope with, but God is faithful and will make a way of escape for us to be able to bear it.
This is where I find these Pastors who go wrong stay wrong, because they don't look for the escape God gave. Instead, they have given into temptation and followed through.
But, following through on the organised religion bit, I just find it too organised. Too stuffy. Then again, I have never, in my life, had someone to go to Church with husband wise, someone to talk about God with, someone to guide me, someone to come home from church with me and be able to discuss the service.
If that had been possible in my life, perhaps things would be different for me today. And, If I ever find someone and remarry, I would hope he would be a Church going man I could talk to because that being the case, I would have no hesitation about going to his Church organised or not.
But as it is, I guess I will remain as I am till the end of my days. Happy in myself and with what I am doing with my life.

[BeforeThereWas]

Understood. One thing I have noticed about folks like us is that when one desires a more meaningful depth, otherwise known as true fellowship, it simply cannot be experienced within the vast majority of organized religion. I guess we could say that organized religion is a place to rest in safety and security from the threats of true, deep, intimate, transparent fellowship.

Most are content with the idea of corporate worship being the purpose for the gathering of believers. That is sad, but just the way it is. This is similar to pitting God's word against itself by saying that, for example, it is ok to tithe faithfully, even when it causes your family to have to live without some necessitites. This flies in the face of Paul's declaration that one is worse than an infidel when he fails to see to the needs of his own, even those of his own house.

Corporate worship is a similar weapon used by religionists to bludgeon into silence those who desire that the gathering be geared more toward the TRUE, biblical purpose for the gathering of believers.

BTW

[Quentin]

I have a question for y'all:

What is the difference between a corporate church and a regular church?

[BeforeThereWas]

I have a question for y'all:

What is the difference between a corporate church and a regular church?

This is a very broad question; one with many different avenues down which one could traverse in trying to provide an answer. Can you be more specific? For example, are you trying to figure out the difference between an institutional church organization and, let's say, a group that meets in the woods knowing only Christ Jesus without all the usual institutional, religious trappings of meeting together?

A group of people can be a corporate church gathering with or without the religious trappings of historic institutionalism, where a regular church tends to have varying degrees of those trappings.

BTW

[Key]

I have a question for y'all:

What is the difference between a corporate church and a regular church?

I am betting the answer is Money.

God Bless
Key.

[Qidron]

I have a question for y'all:

What is the difference between a corporate church and a regular church?

I don't know if you're looking for actual definitions for the terms 'corporate' and 'regular', or if you just want to know the differences between the two ideas.

If these are real terms that ppl use today, I ain't gotta clue.
What do YOU mean by "regular" church? If you define this, someone here might be able to answer you question better.

"Corporate" by definition would the combining of groups...and I'd SUPPOSE the purpose of this would be to join denominations. If that IS the case, I'd have to say that only Christ builds His church. ..His ways just ain't like our ways.

There are many terms defining Christianity that I do not understand...don't think I really want to.

Q

[strikerchris0411]

Yeah theres a whole different variety of regular churches

I don't know what you mean by corporate churches

[SNPete]

I have a question for y'all:

What is the difference between a corporate church and a regular church? In terms of a church that works for a person, none. In terms of whether it is a loving or supportive church, none.
In terms of a church that is doing God's will, none. Thus the question: your point?

[discernomatic]

There seem to be a few definitions of corporate church:

1. A church based on Kingdom Now theology (not my idea of church): http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c138.html

2. A church based on hierarchy, bishops, priests and the like or modern day church organisations (mostly not my idea of church, either, though I grew up in such a one): http://www.theexaminer.org/volume5/number2/freedom.htm

The second article refutes both the Catholic and Protestant versions of hierarchy.

[Quentin]

This is a very broad question; one with many different avenues down which one could traverse in trying to provide an answer. Can you be more specific? For example, are you trying to figure out the difference between an institutional church organization and, let's say, a group that meets in the woods knowing only Christ Jesus without all the usual institutional, religious trappings of meeting together?

A group of people can be a corporate church gathering with or without the religious trappings of historic institutionalism, where a regular church tends to have varying degrees of those trappings.

BTW

Well,
My church is a non-profit. Two years ago, two churches merged into one church. Would this make it a corporate church?

[BeforeThereWas]

Well,
My church is a non-profit. Two years ago, two churches merged into one church. Would this make it a corporate church?

If it is classified as a non-profit (501.c3) corporation, then it is incorporated with the state. In other words, it is a state entity, functioning under federal government guildlines and limitations.

BTW

[discernomatic]

One thing I have noticed about folks like us is that when one desires a more meaningful depth, otherwise known as true fellowship, it simply cannot be experienced within the vast majority of organized religion. I guess we could say that organized religion is a place to rest in safety and security from the threats of true, deep, intimate, transparent fellowship.

Most are content with the idea of corporate worship being the purpose for the gathering of believers. That is sad, but just the way it is. This is similar to pitting God's word against itself by saying that, for example, it is ok to tithe faithfully, even when it causes your family to have to live without some necessitites. This flies in the face of Paul's declaration that one is worse than an infidel when he fails to see to the needs of his own, even those of his own house.

Corporate worship is a similar weapon used by religionists to bludgeon into silence those who desire that the gathering be geared more toward the TRUE, biblical purpose for the gathering of believers.

I really agree with this statement. I think that the real challenge came when I was no longer surrounded by a church system. That forced me to see how little I had learned about the true Christian life. It has much more to do with learning and discipline than with fellowshipping, though that is like the icing on the cake, I think. And worship is the cherry on top. Pretty and flashy but not the point.

Many think that we come together to worship, that worship is primary, but I think that it is not even secondary, it is not the most important part in the life of the believer. We will have time enough for that when we get to heaven. We come together to support each other, to encourage and teach each other, to learn from each other. And with the teaching and strength we gain from that, we go tell others the gospel, teaching those that believe. That is why we are still here. If we were here for worship, we could do that in heaven just as well, maybe better. We are here to tell the gospel to all and teach those that believe it and encourage them to grow in Christ - so that they can do the same.

[BeforeThereWas]

Your understanding of the central purpose for that gethering of believers is very rare. Most believers have no clue. The central purpose is for mutual edification, not worship, as you already said. When Jesus defined acceptable worship before the Father, He used two words that describe a way of life, not ritual or habbit. For many years I have been talling folks that if one is not already living the life of acceptable worship unto the Father, then that individual will not enter a building, join the ritualistic flow, be moved by the emotionally manipulative mood music and words, and magically conjure up worship that is then acceptable before the Father. As it is, most institutions are teaching and practicing falsehood by letting their followers think that the "worship" service is inherently legitimate. Corporate worship flows only from lives who are already immersed in the depths of the life of acceptable worship before they enter the meeting place.

If the people are not allowed to edify one another, then how can meaingful, corporate worship ever be enjoyed? That is about as difficult a concept as trying to figure out how to fellowship with the backs of other people's heads.

BTW

[If Not For Grace]

While I agree w/Discern on the teaching part;


most institutions are teaching and practicing falsehood by letting their followers think that the "worship" service is inherently legitimate


Seems like a bit of stereotypical judgement to me. Many Churches DO Teach and provide fellowship--We Need to seek those out, or start them. I just don't want us to give up on what you all call corporate church. Let US (real church) come together and support one another.

[Qidron]

Many think that we come together to worship, that worship is primary, but I think that it is not even secondary, it is not the most important part in the life of the believer. We will have time enough for that when we get to heaven. We come together to support each other, to encourage and teach each other, to learn from each other. And with the teaching and strength we gain from that, we go tell others the gospel, teaching those that believe. That is why we are still here. If we were here for worship, we could do that in heaven just as well, maybe better. We are here to tell the gospel to all and teach those that believe it and encourage them to grow in Christ - so that they can do the same.

I totally disagree with you here. I see worship as primary as it gets us into His mindset...it's where we hear Him. Works done without His heart at the center are just wasted time and effort.

"Worship is everything i am.. everything that is my makeup.. every aspect of my life, my talents, my heart, soul, mind, will, emotions, my song, my dance, my everything submitted before Him, poured out extravagantly because He is worthy." This is a quote from my son...and I totally agree with it.

After this life...worship is all we will have...and it will be PALENTY, but the time for work will be over. And still, it is worship that sets the pace here and now...not the other way around.

[discernomatic]

I totally disagree with you here. I see worship as primary as it gets us into His mindset...it's where we hear Him. Works done without His heart at the center are just wasted time and effort.

"Worship is everything i am.. everything that is my makeup.. every aspect of my life, my talents, my heart, soul, mind, will, emotions, my song, my dance, my everything submitted before Him, poured out extravagantly because He is worthy." This is a quote from my son...and I totally agree with it.

After this life...worship is all we will have...and it will be PALENTY, but the time for work will be over. And still, it is worship that sets the pace here and now...not the other way around.
I also have a good voice, have sung in choirs. I do like to practice and sing when I have the chance, but I find the teaching more important. At the moment I can only sing occasionally because of the need to learn and teach, had to put it on the back burner, and there it will stay until the situation changes. At least for me singing is not an option right now, nor can I see it becoming the major emphasis in my life again, there are too many other things to do. If you are a singer and/or musician I can understand your love of music and the emphasis it must have on your life, but that does not need to be true for non-musicians. I think that everyone has his field of expertise, he just has to find it.

[Qidron]

OK, I see the problem we have here...a difference in definitions for what worship is. I'm not talking about singing. That's why I included the quote from my son.



"Worship is everything i am.. everything that is my makeup.. every aspect of my life, my talents, my heart, soul, mind, will, emotions, my song, my dance, my everything submitted before Him, poured out extravagantly because He is worthy."



The word WORSHIP literally means to pay homage to...bow down....to humble oneself...this opens us up.

It is true that today worship most often takes the form of music and singing in church services...and yeah, I do love worship songs especially free form worship...but ONLY because they AREN'T just singing.

THIS is essential and numero uno. :)

Q

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I would call singing "praise". Life is worship.

[Qidron]

I would call singing "praise". Life is worship.

OK I'll go along with that. :thumbsup:

[If Not For Grace]

WORSHIP literally means to pay homage to...




I would say this can be done in many forms. AMEN:wave:

[BeforeThereWas]

Seems like a bit of stereotypical judgement to me.

It would be stereotypical if I had said "all", which I did not say.

Many Churches DO Teach and provide fellowship--

Where? Which ones? How? When?

We Need to seek those out, or start them. I just don't want us to give up on what you all call corporate church.

Actually, I call it organized religion, and yes, I have given up on them; not as a whole, but mostly. How many have you ever heard of that knows what TRUE fellowship invovles, and allows such to exist? Coffee and doughnuts get-togethers is not true, gneuine fellowship.

Let US (real church) come together and support one another.

This sounds really great and all, but it simply is not allowed because of many contraints that the Lord has not seen fit to overcome just yet.

BTW

[If Not For Grace]

Before:

Liberty Baptist Church and Vernon, Alabama is a small GOOD all round church. University Cathedral in LA, CA is an excellent teaching (its on the university level) facility.

I too have shared the Spiritual abuse of many a "organized" church.

This thread in many ways sounds like women complaining about men "All the good ones are gone". AND I JUST say No--they are there, they are not however unfortunately under every steeple.

Another concept is I don't always eat at one restaurant, When I want breakfast I may eat at one type and when I want dinner another may be better suited. Attending more than one church can be beneficial.

[Qidron]

Another concept is I don't always eat at one restaurant, When I want breakfast I may eat at one type and when I want dinner another may be better suited. Attending more than one church can be beneficial.

I agree with you...but them organized churches really don't like this. It's just too scary for them. They want to keep a handle on THEIR congregations. They like it when you visit, but they don't take you very seriously if you don't JOIN.

Oh well. Bon apetit, just the same. :)

Q

[discernomatic]

OK I'll go along with that. :thumbsup:

So we might agree with each other. I think FLANDIDLYANDERS has got it. Worship is a way of life. For me that has a lot to do with learning and teaching, comforting and supporting. Whether this is in a church setting, home church setting, on the net or in the corner pub is irrelevant to me.

[BeforeThereWas]

Liberty Baptist Church and Vernon, Alabama is a small GOOD all round church. University Cathedral in LA, CA is an excellent teaching (its on the university level) facility.

Ok. What's happening here is that this is geting way off course from where it was originally headed. You're taking issue with things I never said. I didn't say anyhting about the quality of teaching. I specifically mentioned fellowship. Could you share with us your understanding of true, genuine fellowship? What do you believe is the central, biblical purpose for the gethering of believers?

I too have shared the Spiritual abuse of many a "organized" church.

Again, none of us was talking about spiritual abuse. Organized religion has, within its inherent makeup, various elements that are in fact existent in almost every church insitution across this country. From what you've described, yours is no different. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but do all of you sit in chairs, pews, or whatever, going through the motions of the "service" ritual? (I'm not angry, just trying to get at the root of the confusion so that you can understand what we are really saying.) You see, it's the "restaurant" mentality with which we take issue with. The fact that you used the restaurant simile in itself speaks loud volumes about your understanding of what you think the gathering of believers is about. In restaurants, you are fed only by the authorized staff of that establishment. In fellowship, TRUE fellowship, we go not only to be fed by others, but to feed others as well. When you're an audience, you're not allowed to feed others, but only to be fed...and that only happens IF the "pastor" actually happens to preach a message that just so happens to touch upon your own life and needs. This concept that one man can touch all the lives in the place is a grossly distorted concept that's still going on today, only because of the strength and power of tradition. Do you remember what Jesus had to say about religious traditions?

This thread in many ways sounds like women complaining about men "All the good ones are gone". AND I JUST say No--they are there, they are not however unfortunately under every steeple.

Maybe that's how you see it, but then, with all due respect, this shows that you aren't comprehending the depths of what we're really saying. This is apples and oranges.

Hey, don't give up on us. We're not talking about institutions themselves. We're talking about a mindset that is itself the stifling force within those institutions that's the problem. Being organized was never the issue. The mindset we've been talking about siffles and kills out any possibility for genuine, deep fellowship from blossoming within the main gathering of all those people. The misconception about the Biblical idea of "order" almost forces the Lord to share His throne with a concept that has been blown way out of proportion by tradition rather than any true and genuine understanding of how that term was used in the text.

Another concept is I don't always eat at one restaurant, When I want breakfast I may eat at one type and when I want dinner another may be better suited. Attending more than one church can be beneficial.

Well, since you appear to think that this is a proper simile, consider this:

You aren't allowed to go into a restaurant and feed the other customers (how ironic, right gang) yourself. If you try, they throw you out...poste haste. The same goes for organized religion. You try feeding others in the gathering, the ushers throw you out...poste haste. There isn't one institution in any city within which I have ever visited that serves as an antithesis to what I've just said. Believe me, I've asked, and haven't yet run across one. From the terminology you've used, and the concepts and comparisons you've put forth, yours is no different than all the rest in relation to the central theme of what we've been talking about.

BTW

[strikerchris0411]

So we might agree with each other. I think FLANDIDLYANDERS has got it. Worship is a way of life. For me that has a lot to do with learning and teaching, comforting and supporting. Whether this is in a church setting, home church setting, on the net or in the corner pub is irrelevant to me.



I agree, not in some fancy big building with 100+ people

[BeforeThereWas]

Worship is a way of life. For me that has a lot to do with learning and teaching, comforting and supporting. Whether this is in a church setting, home church setting, on the net or in the corner pub is irrelevant to me.

Excellent point. :thumbsup:

I certainly understand why mose people have such a hard time grasping what we've been talking about, because it simply isn't taught from pulpits. There's always the fear within the leadership that the people might actually GET IT, and start desiring that which puts the pulpit in the back seat behind the Bible, where it really belongs. It was a sad day in history when the rcc established the pulpit as the main defining source for truth, rather than the written word of God. If this were not true, then we wouldn't have all the foolish, creeds and schismatic denominational distinctions within the body.

The lack of understanding for how the word of God REALLY defines words like worship, fellowship, etc., well, this all paints the usual portrait of an age old enemy of the Cross that lives and breaths within organized, institutional, religious entities, almost all of which hold a false endearment within the hearts of so many.

BTW

[Qidron]

BeforeThereWasDon't give up on us. We're not talking about institutions themselves. We're talking about a mindset that is itself the stifling force within those institutions that's the problem. Being organized was never the issue. The mindset we've been talking about sifles and kills out any possibility for genuine, deep fellowship from blossoming within the main gathering of all those people. The misconception about the Biblical idea of "order" almost forces the Lord to share His throne with a concept that has been blown way out of proportion by tradition, not any true and genuine understanding of how that term was used in the text.


I agree with what you say here. This is why I don't GO to church. I would love to...but when life problems arose within our 20+ year congregation, it turned out that there was no real foundation between us. What a shock that was :o... I had thought that Christ was our foundation...but as it turns out, He was not. We were taught that He was in the midst of us, but when His Word was drawn into the discussion to straighten things out...fellowship fellapart.

I'm interested in what you say here about the Biblical concept of order. Maybe I've got it wrong...please share. I'm a Berean...you have to use scripture.:)

Q

[Qidron]

Discernomatic:Worship is a way of life. For me that has a lot to do with learning and teaching, comforting and supporting. Whether this is in a church setting, home church setting, on the net or in the corner pub is irrelevant to me.

I'm trying to get hold of this. I agree that our life displays our worship...and who we worship. But all these things that we DO can so easily become just actions....I'm trying to put all this into the context of what the Lord means by worship. What does HE expect? Of course He's looking at our every day activities...but scripture seems to be referring to something different here. There was a service of worship performed..no? Help me here.

What I have understood worship to be is that specific time we plug into His presence. I believe that He is always here...but we are not always plugged into him...rather just doing things....maybe good things too...but we can become distracted away from HIM in them. You know, "..the work of the Lord coming before the Lord of the work." (Chip Brogden) At least that's what I have struggle with. I want to be alive and aware of His presence...in and around me...communicating ...24/7. And it ain't gonna happen by my will power. I have this desire and I offer it up to Him to make it be.

There was true revival happening here in the states in the late 90s and I did begin to experience Him in these large "worship" services. These worship services did revolve around singing...so it gets confusing here.Then His presence lifted and we had to make some descisions...and many just fell away. And I don't mean they fell away from those church services...many fell AWAY. I fell deeper into Him. I find THERE IS NO WHERE ELSE TO GO.

Some of us are becoming aware of the fallacies that were taught. God is good to do this for us. :) I want to get things straight by looking to the Word to make sure that what we adhere to NOW is correct.

Q

[discernomatic]

people have such a hard time grasping what we've been talking about, because it simply isn't taught from pulpits. There's always the fear within the leadership that the people might actually GET IT, and start desiring that which puts the pulpit in the back seat behind the Bible, where it really belongs....The lack of understanding for how the word of God REALLY defines words like worship, fellowship, etc....

Mmm hmm! I think that is the hitch. Not that I am completely against organized religion, there are those that can lead happy and fulfilled lives there, but the fact that it can be overly organized makes it open to manipulation.

If you can control the whole thing and introduce false doctrine from the top down many won't question it until they have been through the mill, and even then many will insist that the system was correct, precisely because what they experienced came from the top down. They are taught to equate that a pastor's will or the denomination's decrees are the will of God, which is not what Scripture says. It may be that some are following his will closer than others, but there is no guarantee that a church is doing this.

Some denominations or congregations become exclusive, saying that the only true way to the Father is with their organisation. This can be demonstrated by the implementation of closed communion (like Catholics not sharing it with Protestants - or some Protestants not sharing it with others). Outwardly they call other groups "Christian" but the reservation of communion only for their own members is the true sign of what they believe, that all others, though they call themselves Christians, are lost, or are at least in the process of becoming so.

Again BTW's quote: "The lack of understanding for how the word of God REALLY defines words like worship, fellowship, etc...."

Some have been rejected from churches or other Christian groups for the way they do their hair or the way they dress. Those that rejected them from organized, too organized religion did not even take a proper look at Scripture before they did that.

[discernomatic]

Discernomatic:

I'm trying to get hold of this. I agree that our life displays our worship...and who we worship. But all these things that we DO can so easily become just actions....I'm trying to put all this into the context of what the Lord means by worship. What does HE expect? Of course He's looking at our every day activities...but scripture seems to be referring to something different here. There was a service of worship performed..no? Help me here.

What I have understood worship to be is that specific time we plug into His presence. I believe that He is always here...but we are not always plugged into him...rather just doing things....maybe good things too...but we can become distracted away from HIM in them. You know, "..the work of the Lord coming before the Lord of the work." (Chip Brogden) At least that's what I have struggle with. I want to be alive and aware of His presence...in and around me...communicating ...24/7. And it ain't gonna happen by my will power. I have this desire and I offer it up to Him to make it be.

There was true revival happening here in the states in the late 90s and I did begin to experience Him in these large "worship" services. These worship services did revolve around singing...so it gets confusing here.Then His presence lifted and we had to make some descisions...and many just fell away. And I don't mean they fell away from those church services...many fell AWAY. I fell deeper into Him. I find THERE IS NO WHERE ELSE TO GO.

Some of us are becoming aware of the fallacies that were taught. God is good to do this for us. :) I want to get things straight by looking to the Word to make sure that what we adhere to NOW is correct.

Q

I think I see where you are coming from. But how do you perceive His presence? I have been present at revival meetings, crusades and the like, but though I did feel a presence in those places many times, I realized that it was not the same presence I perceived when I was born-again. After years of being misled by false doctrine propagated at those crusades and revivals, I had to go back to that moment to see what had blinded me all those years.

There are a few possibilities as to what happened.

The presence I felt at those meetings was caused by a state of euphoria that can come through an extended praise and worship service, especially one where the songs have relatively little Scripture in them. They go something like, "I praise you, I worship you, I need your presence....". Often such songs are repeated over and over. This can cause an emotional and even physical euphoria, a sort of high, and can be addictive like a drug. I found it to be addictive.

Or the presence I felt was caused by a spirit other than the Holy Spirit, addictive feelings also included here.

Either way, I realized after much going after spiritual experiences, that "feeling" God was not necessary, but knowing Him is. That was when I hit the Scriptures and prayer to really get to know Him. That has brought more fruit in a relatively short time than the whole time I was trying to be in, find, get into what I thought was His presence.

Funny thing is that hardly anyone that had sung, danced, felt euphoric, "fell down in the spirit", felt a presence, spoke in a tongue, prophesied, sang in a tongue.....really felt compelled to go out and witness afterward. The day of Pentecost was not relived. Cards were collected and it was said that so-and-so-many had "made a decision for Christ" but it always fizzled out. If it happened in the morning, everyone went home to lunch. If it happened in the evening, everyone went home to bed. That was a big piece of proof for me that God was not to be found there, that the presence felt there was not Him. Too many are too familiar with that pattern of "revival" to question it.

Maybe you got closer to God in spite of the revival, rather than because of it. God was working to get you closer to Him, as He was me, but despite the false revival. The emptiness that I felt after years of chasing ghosts drove me to Him, too, (not to mention a "spanking" he gave me). It could be that some were saved at those revivals, too, but again, despite the message rather than because of it.

[If Not For Grace]

Discern: I have experienced many of the things you describe in your post, some personally and some by observation. What about Long Suffering? Are we not to endeavour to persevere? Are we not guaranteed persecution and false prophets? Should we not stand and have a voice against wrong doings inside the organization. Give our young people a living physical example of your signature? My heart aches and sees the current trend as the beginning of the "great falling away".

[BeforeThereWas]

I'm interested in what you say here about the Biblical concept of order. Maybe I've got it wrong...please share. I'm a Berean...you have to use scripture.:)

Q

When Paul spoke of order, concerning the gathering of believers, in his epistle, he was addressing it in relation to outright chaos...everyone speaking at once. No gathering could get anywhere in such a setting.

Institutionalism, however, pushed this concept far beyond the comparative use Paul was applying. Organized religion took this as meaning that you sit in that pew, participating passively, and only on cue, without speaking directly to anyone else to comfort and edify them. It became a tool by which you and most everyone else are subjected to a stringent program that denies you the spiritual heritage into which we have all been grafted.

Order...yes. Control...NO! Silence...NO! If the Lord abides in the praises of His people, then our silence is very uninviting. I'm not talking about singing hymns. Anyone can do that, even outside the gathering. The early Church had one or two up on us today. They came together, edified one another in an orderly fassion, each believer functioning within the arena of each one's giftings, and then edified people gave praise and glory to the Lord. In other words, He was welcome from start to finish.

This idea that the minister is to dominate the gathering with his service agenda, and to lecture, sermonize every meeting, etc., etc., is completely foreign to the scriptures. The order that is practiced within churchianity is also completely foreign to the scriptures, especially in light of the fact that we are ALL priests unto and ambassadors for the Most High. There was once an organization of about 3,000 people of which I am aware, where the people edified one another, prayed for one another, and fellowshiped with one another to a far greater depth than any other institution I have ever seen. The "pastor" figurehead [any one of the many elders] only spoke a message when the Lord truly laid it upon one of their hearts. They were not of those phoneys who had to prepare each week for his rheorical, Aristotilian speeches. It was powerful, to the point, and truly organic rather than contrived through rehearsal. Their gatherings sometimes ran from noon till as late as midnight on some Sundays, with all kinds of food on hand for when they got hungry. They had something wonderful...at one time.

The enemy, however, got his way. It's just too bad that some wolves in sheep's clothing came in and successfully wiped it all out. That group is now just as institutional and stiffled as any other. Many left, and other religionists came in to fill their places. Those newcomers were not new converts. They were migrants, malcontents from other organizations who wanted to get in on the ground floor of a new organization and be a part of the inner "clique."

Please pardon my rambling...;)

BTW

[Qidron]

Discern...The only thing I know is that The Lord used that time to revive a lot of people, including me. I don't regret any of it even though there was definitely some strange fire happening. Whatever was wrong in that congregation is still falling apart and whatever was right stayed in the hearts...as they moved on.

And whenever we encounter the HOLY Spirit...it IS in spite of what man tries to do to accomplish this. So, I ain't worried about the controls men try to put on the move of God. He still works with whatever we give Him.

As for WORSHIP....Good Works do not equal worship. First the heart has to be one with God and then whatever of our lives we pour out is also worship, and yeah, that happens wherever we are. At some point JESUS will pull his Body together. It just hasn't happened yet and is not a work man can accomplish. It's a Spirit thing. Meanwhile we trust Him for every move we make.

Q

[Qidron]

When Paul spoke of order, concerning the gathering of believers, in his epistle, he was addressing it in relation to outright chaos...everyone speaking at once. No gathering could get anywhere in such a setting.

BTW

Well, that is what I've understood order and disorder to be. It's what goes on in my house. :scratch: Wish I could bring an end to that....:prayer:

Anyway, thanks and I did appreciate everything else you wrote. Not a ramble to me. One thing you mentioned was the pastors dominating the services...not only is that not in scripture, but it's too hard on those men as well. Little kingdoms. It is not what God intended. I so desire a fellowship where we will share with one another all the Lord speaks to us during the week. How wonderful that would be.

Q

[BeforeThereWas]

Anyway, thanks and I did appreciate everything else you wrote.

And thank you for your posts.

Not a ramble to me. One thing you mentioned was the pastors dominating the services...not only is that not in scripture, but it's too hard on those men as well.

Absolutely.

Little kingdoms. It is not what God intended. I so desire a fellowship where we will share with one another all the Lord speaks to us during the week. How wonderful that would be.

It's in your grasp. Start something in your home, and leave your Bibles on a talbe somewhere out of reach, and just get to know one another, search out each other's needs, pray for one another, and then, if there's time and energy, crack the Bibles open. I say this because Bibles studies can be enjoyed anywhere and anytime people want. Ecourage one another to become immersed in the word of God so that each has something of substance to bring in each week.

BTW

[Qidron]

And thank you for your posts.



Absolutely.



It's in your grasp. Start something in your home, and leave your Bibles on a talbe somewhere out of reach, and just get to know one another, search out each other's needs, pray for one another, and then, if there's time and energy, crack the Bibles open. I say this because Bibles studies can be enjoyed anywhere and anytime people want. Ecourage one another to become immersed in the word of God so that each has something of substance to bring in each week.

BTW

I think I understand. It seems simple enough. Except for the PEOPLE part. :sigh: But I will begin at the beginning. My heart opens to it and He draws people in and shows them to me. Let's go Lord.

[BeforeThereWas]

I think I understand. It seems simple enough. Except for the PEOPLE part. :sigh: But I will begin at the beginning. My heart opens to it and He draws people in and shows them to me. Let's go Lord.

Oh, believe me when I say that I fully understand the "people" issue. Been there, done that. The two main issues I have experienced with the people factor are:

1) Getting them to give up on their religiousness, leave it outside on the doorstep, and pick it up on their way out, and

2) The severe lack of genuine commitment. Almost anything else will take top priority to most of the people rather than being at the gathering on a regular basis, ON TIME.

It's pretty much a given that, since studying the word of God is of such little value to most, that this mentality spills over into a direct outplay of the level of commitment they have to getting to a gathering where they can be filled. Oh, if there's a crisis in their lives that has profound emotional impact upon them, they'll be there, and early for the prayers they covet, but when they are fed, fat, warm and happy, the bluegrass music festival simply ranks as the more important priority. Never mind that someone may need them who is at the meeting. The implications of this are they tend to show that the rudiments of institutionalism are indeed powerful. Within institutionalism, each member mostly lacks functional importance for them to attend each time the gathering is in session. When they are expected to attend only as a passive member, and plop their money into the passing plate, well, their importance is less imperative as compared to a small, intimate group who has an enormously greater need for each member present and functional.

BTW

[Qidron]

...Oh, if there's a crisis in their lives that has profound emotional impact upon them, they'll be there, and early for the prayers they covet...
BTW

Well then I guess the Lord will just have to provide a profound emotional impact on our lives. And I'm sure He will. :thumbsup:

Q

[New_Wineskin]

Oh, believe me when I say that I fully understand the "people" issue. Been there, done that. The two main issues I have experienced with the people factor are:

1) Getting them to give up on their religiousness, leave it outside on the doorstep, and pick it up on their way out, and

2) The severe lack of genuine commitment. Almost anything else will take top priority to most of the people rather than being at the gathering on a regular basis, ON TIME.

It's pretty much a given that, since studying the word of God is of such little value to most, that this mentality spills over into a direct outplay of the level of commitment they have to getting to a gathering where they can be filled. Oh, if there's a crisis in their lives that has profound emotional impact upon them, they'll be there, and early for the prayers they covet, but when they are fed, fat, warm and happy, the bluegrass music festival simply ranks as the more important priority. Never mind that someone may need them who is at the meeting. The implications of this are they tend to show that the rudiments of institutionalism are indeed powerful. Within institutionalism, each member mostly lacks functional importance for them to attend each time the gathering is in session. When they are expected to attend only as a passive member, and plop their money into the passing plate, well, their importance is less imperative as compared to a small, intimate group who has an enormously greater need for each member present and functional.

BTW

Wow . Talking about the point of the thread and your point on religiousness , your post gives me good examples of both . Your issue #2 combined with your explanation after that is very religious to me . "Commitment" to a group or scheduled meetings religious and one of my points on "What is wrong with going to church ?" . I find the point to be hypocritical in that committment to a singular group is contrary to the "do not forsake" law people put out there for obtaining righteousness .

A meeting that has a specific agenda and everything must be performed on time with everyone there are other points that I have to answer the question of the thread title . You bring up another one with your statements concerning the Scriptures . If people aren't reading them on their own , they already have little value in a group setting . If they are reading them on their own , there is no need for them in a group setting .

I would say that the idea of necessity of being at every meeting ( or even regular attendance ) and for the whole meeting of a specific group is the main idea of institutionalism .

Having said that ( and I wanted to say more ) , I completely understand that you have specific desires for how you fellowship . That's fine . However , you wanting others to have the same desires is showing that you are not following step 1) . If everyone has the same mentality at the formation of the group , I would think that would be great .

Edited to add : My desire is that this post was not percievd as accusatory . I was attempting to give my thoughts on certain concepts .

[Qidron]

Personally...if I am led to open my home for a gathering to share what the Lord shows those He calls....I will do that regardless of who shows up. It don't matter none to me if they don't come...it ain't MY party. One thing I know is that if the Lord wants to build something IT WILL GET BUILT. So I intend to just start...I'm beginning to feel His nudge. Nothing else we get me moving anyway....and I have a husband who'd have to hear the same thing. :)

Q

[New_Wineskin]

Personally...if I am led to open my home for a gathering to share what the Lord shows those He calls....I will do that regardless of who shows up. It don't matter none to me if they don't come...it ain't MY party. One thing I know is that if the Lord wants to build something IT WILL GET BUILT. So I intend to just start...I'm beginning to feel His nudge. Nothing else we get me moving anyway....and I have a husband who'd have to hear the same thing. :)

Q

That is a great way of looking at it . :)

[BeforeThereWas]

Wow . Talking about the point of the thread and your point on religiousness , your post gives me good examples of both . Your issue #2 combined with your explanation after that is very religious to me .

I'm not sure how you came to your conclusions, and I refuse to make any judgments without asking, but then you didn't ask me what I meant by my use of the term "commitment" before passing judgment of hypocrisy on my part. But, hey, you're entitled to your opinion and your judgments. I guess I'm as turquois as I can get once you paint me with such broad brush strokes. :D

Edited to add : My desire is that this post was not percievd as accusatory . I was attempting to give my thoughts on certain concepts .

If the label of being hypocritical isn't accusatory, then your dictionary must have a whole different set of definitions for key words.

You appear to be the only one who came to the conclusion that my use of commitment was at all within the realm of the sense of strict conformity to some preconceived plan, agenda, schedule, flow of religious entitlement, etc., etc. :doh:

Whatever..... :eek:

BTW

[BeforeThereWas]

Personally...if I am led to open my home for a gathering to share what the Lord shows those He calls....I will do that regardless of who shows up. It don't matter none to me if they don't come...it ain't MY party. One thing I know is that if the Lord wants to build something IT WILL GET BUILT. So I intend to just start...I'm beginning to feel His nudge. Nothing else we get me moving anyway....and I have a husband who'd have to hear the same thing. :)

Q

Well, at least you got my point without trying to nail me to the tree of religious entitlement. ;)

I like your attitude. It says, "The Lord's in charge, and He alone will make this a success since my flesh is weak and incapable in itself."

What wine-licker missed is that institutionalism tends to try and mix both together with the idea that program is the vehicle with God pushing from behind. Well, the Lord isn't any vehicle's engine. He does all at His good pleasure. The problem for most is finding that realm of the Lord's pleasure and keeping one's feet in that realm alone.

BTW

[New_Wineskin]

Whatever..... :eek:

BTW

ditto ...

[PlanN2WalkONwata]

Something I have learned... I fellowship at home and in the homes of other believers... so that should tell you where I stand I guess... but at the same time... through my studies... and through prayers... I cannot condemn the institutional church... there are a lot of people that would never open up to Christ except for the institutional church... and from there their hearts are opened more and more and more of God's wisdom is poured in. The Lord shows and leads His children where He wants them. So for many, the institutional church may be where it not only starts, but where it ends... but for others... it may start there and continue much further. Yes, I do fellowship at home... but I would be ignorant if I even thought that what I'm doing is COMPLETELY correct to the true form of fellowship the Lord truly desires. Truth is, we're all so completely drenched in society and tradition (believe it or not we are... if you want to know more PM me)... that it may take generations before the Lord might be able to turn us into the church he intended us to be... if we can ever become that on this earth... There's a quote (I might mess it up a little... so forgive me if I do... and please correct me if I'm wrong)
"The city is built
To music, therefore never built at all,
And therefore built for ever." - Lord, Alfred Tennyson
I liken this to the body of Christ or the perfect church
We were "built" to do the will of God...
But because we are flesh, we will never completely fulfill the will of God... we will always fail Him somewhere along the line... (therefore the perfect church doesn't exist)
But b/c we will continuously strive to be what the Lord wants us to be... and STRIVE to BE that perfect church... it will exist forever.
All we can do is open our hearts and our ears to the Lord, and then place all our trust and faith in Him and do what He asks of us.
(ACK... sorry if I'm completley off course lol)

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Of course you can condemn the institutional church. It is full of humans after all! But that's not the proper way!

I was watching some stuff on TV yesterday (Sunday) showing some church meeting or other and it finally hit me... what they are promoting has absolutely no appeal to me anymore!!!! I mean it's not just a style issue, it'sthe worldview. They want a "come to us and we'll give you the answer" christianity, where as I want to find Jesus in and with the World, who are my church.

[PlanN2WalkONwata]

i cannot condemn... i can say that it is not RIGHT for ME... the Lord has convicted me of it... but it may not be wrong for somebody the Lord has placed there for a season

[BeforeThereWas]

I cannot condemn the institutional church... there are a lot of people that would never open up to Christ except for the institutional church...

I agree that it's not right to condemn institutionalism outright with a blanket condemnation. However, to say the Lord could not reach some people except through the use of institutionalism is to utter a level of authority that none of us has. Institutionalism is a tool, and a good one when used properly.

Yes, I do fellowship at home... but I would be ignorant if I even thought that what I'm doing is COMPLETELY correct to the true form of fellowship the Lord truly desires.

Fellowship comes in many different forms, depending on the situation people are in. Some POW's in enemy prison camps used morse code to share information and to fellowship and strengthen one another in Christ. So, yes, fellowship can be expressed in a number of ways. With Christ at its center, it is powerful and pure.

Truth is, we're all so completely drenched in society and tradition (believe it or not we are... if you want to know more PM me)... that it may take generations before the Lord might be able to turn us into the church he intended us to be... if we can ever become that on this earth...

Well, He has allowed the institutional form to continue all these centuries........perhaqps to let it be the acid test for those who erroneously think that the antiquity of institutionalism automaticallt bestows upon itself God's seal of approval. He does have a sense of humor...obviously. :)

BTW

[New_Wineskin]

I was watching some stuff on TV yesterday (Sunday) showing some church meeting or other and it finally hit me... what they are promoting has absolutely no appeal to me anymore!!!! I mean it's not just a style issue, it'sthe worldview. They want a "come to us and we'll give you the answer" christianity,...

Yes . I agree with this part .

[New_Wineskin]

i cannot condemn... i can say that it is not RIGHT for ME... the Lord has convicted me of it... but it may not be wrong for somebody the Lord has placed there for a season

I agree .

[If Not For Grace]

I cannot condemn the institutional church... there are a lot of people that would never open up to Christ except for the institutional church... and from there their hearts are opened more and more and more of God's wisdom is poured in.




AMEN-Nor do I condemn home-church--no church. Lest any be a stumbling block. If it had not been for the institutional church many would have had no homes to pray in.

[BeforeThereWas]

If it had not been for the institutional church many would have had no homes to pray in.

This is an interesting comment. Could you explain further what you meant by this? I don't understand how the institutional system provided the only place for many to pray? Who are these "many" who would allegedly had nowhere to pray apart from institutionalism?

Thanks

BTW

[discernomatic]

Discern: I have experienced many of the things you describe in your post, some personally and some by observation. What about Long Suffering? Are we not to endeavour to persevere? Are we not guaranteed persecution and false prophets? Should we not stand and have a voice against wrong doings inside the organization. Give our young people a living physical example of your signature? My heart aches and sees the current trend as the beginning of the "great falling away".
Hi Dyanm,

Sure. I agree. Perseverance is necessary, it is part of the Christian "education", part of growing up. I do stand up and say what I think is wrong with the organisation. I see much of what is going on in the "revival" or "latter rain" as some call it as a great falling away. I have called it a false revival by a false Holy Spirit. That view is not popular and brings criticism with it. I'm not saying that God cannot use the false revival. When the gospel is preached, no matter by whom, some will be saved. The thing I don't like about it is that they are then led into false doctrine immediately. Paul felt the same way, I think.

Philippians 1:15-18 "It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

He was happy that some preached the gospel no matter what the motive - BUT:

2 Corinthians 11:12-15 "And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."

Paul still insisted that those that preach deception as well, should have the ground cut from under them - should be opposed.

There is another instance when some preached a false gospel which I think is often the case today as with those that preach the gospel but much false doctrine:

Galatians 1:6-9 "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

Paul did not hesitate to hope that those that would preach a false gospel would be condemned. I choose not to use such strong language, but I do say it if I think that someone is preaching a false gospel.

Just keeping our mouths shut if every Tom, Dick and Harry says he is Christian, even an Apostle or Prophet as some are doing today, and preaches false doctrine or even a false gospel is not the solution. Some say it is better not to criticize, to promote "unity of the faith," but if they are not promoting faith in the right Jesus Christ - that is, are preaching a false gospel - then I sure don't want to be one with them. They can go down with their ship, but I'm not going to. Everyone has the right to be a Berean and question whether the doctrine they preach is really Scriptural or made up.

It saddens me too, to see so many misled, some even following a false Christ. This can happen in mainline churches, emergent churches, in house churches, cell groups or church movements. The danger is everywhere, just as the truth can be in all these places. But if people choose not to inform themselves, won't listen to the warnings that Jesus, Paul and the others spoke and wrote, what can one do? I try to warn as much as I can, but it isn't popular. Too many these days want a "positive" gospel, a man-centered gospel that doesn't tell them about suffering or persecution. The truth isn't always pleasant, it is just too bad that some can't even gather that fact from the lessons of everyday life, not to mention that it is so plainly written in Scripture. I choose not to go through life with rose-colored glasses, but a lot of people want to. In a way I don't blame them, they are free to do as they like from a human standpoint, but I like to see as clearly as I can.

[Qidron]

We have to stay where we are until the Lord says to leave. OF COURSE be the example. But when He says TIME TO GO...you better be out that door...shaking the dust off your feet as you go.

Qid

[SNPete]

Dang! I start a thread and it is at 304 posts and counting! Wow I must've struck a cord. Cool. Debate on! :D ;) :cool:

[strikerchris0411]

Dang! I start a thread and it is at 304 posts and counting! Wow I must've struck a cord. Cool. Debate on! :D ;) :cool:





yeah controversial subject

[BeforeThereWas]

One thing I've encountered with some hardline institutionalists is their ability, for example, to justify almost anything that morally rational individuals would consider wrong, such as censorship of topics institutionalists fear more than they fear the label of hypocrisy. I realize every crowd has its bad apples, but Christians are supposed to be above the tactics and mindset of their secular, unbelieving counterpart. Evolutionists routinely censor out creation science from journals and museums, because they fear the implications of the existence of God. Some institutionalists, unfortunately, are of this ilk. They believe that censoring out what they don't like will make it go away, therefore untrue.

There are some good people within organized religion, of which there is no doubt in my mind. It's just too bad that we can't all come to an agreement upon the authority of God's word above tradition and social dogma. Institutionalsm isn't wrong in and of itself. It simply protects those elements claiming to be "christian" as if they are above the need for accountability.

BTW

[strikerchris0411]

Have you ever seen the story where the teenage kid killed his pastor and himself because of religion



he was believed to be one of the two witnesses predicted in Revalations
his pastor molested him
he was very pressured 24/7 to do this and that

he left a video and he told his whole story


religion can be murder


i would write more but my arms broke
forgive grammer

[BeforeThereWas]

i would write more but my arms broke
forgive grammer


What in the world happened? How'd you break your arm?

BTW

[discernomatic]

I realize every crowd has its bad apples, but Christians are supposed to be above the tactics and mindset of their secular, unbelieving counterpart. Evolutionists routinely censor out creation science from journals and museums, because they fear the implications of the existence of God. Some institutionalists, unfortunately, are of this ilk. They believe that censoring out what they don't like will make it go away, therefore untrue.

Ah, yes, but this can go in the other direction too, as it did with Galileo when he wanted to publish his findings. He was persecuted by the church and the government-which was in league with the church. I think that creation "science" can be taught, but in a philosophy course or religion course. I have had scientist friends and family look at the various proofs given, and some are gravely false. These were neutral people taking an objective look at the information. In some cases the creation science proofs presented only half of the scientific information in that area and ignored the rest that would have disproven the thesis. That is bad science, just as taking only one verse of Scripture on a subject to prove a point and ignoring the rest on the subject would be bad theology. Consistency is needed in science as well as theology if viable theses are to be presented.

If a majority of American churches embrace creation science it is ok. If, however, they insist on having these ideas taught as science, when they cannot be proven by empirical means - just as God's existence cannot be proven by science - then they are promoting bad science, a science mixed with beliefs, a sort of superstion as that which existed in the Middle Ages, also known as Dark Ages. If science becomes mixed with beliefs, there will be no more objectivity, and if America learns to think in this matter, it is the beginning of the end of a successful nation. This will block scientific, technological and medicinal advances in a nation that is currently leading in many fields. I would be sorry to see that happen.

Evolution does not answer all of my questions about nature, either, it has holes, too. But scientific history teaches us that there are always new and better theories to replace the old ones, I suspect that a new one will replace evolution some day. It is only a theory.

In my opinion science and religion and politics must be kept separate. Maybe this is impossible. If it is inevitable that they come together, then I think we will see the Dark Ages repeat themselves all over again, at least on American soil. Hardly anyone outside the US ascribes to such beliefs, and outside the US even if they would believe such things, fewer would attempt to have them taught in schools as scientific fact - this is a purely American phenomenon.

I for one am glad that I am not in any church that promotes this ideological mixture of science and religion - to be put forward by politics. If that is what may be wrong with many churches in America, then I am not sad that I cannot attend. It would be one more thing to stay away from.

Freedom of beliefs is paramount to me. But I don't even want my Christian brothers telling me what to believe. The concept is even worse - if these beliefs are forcibly spread to others, even non-Christians that would like to believe something else. Even if it means they may not go to heaven (I am wording this politely) they do have the right to believe what they choose to. If religious philosophies are put forward as facts then it is forcing others to believe. We end up with a sort of alchemy - a pseudoscience of the philosophers that is neither science nor religion because then religion is confined to the finite by science and cannot transcend it, no matter how much it purports to, and science is not free to explore the finite, because it is confined by philosophy or religious beliefs. I do not want to live in such a cage. I see the new philosophy of creation science or intelligent design as threatening my freedom, and my freedom in Jesus Christ. No philosophy or religion should be taught as fact, or we end up with an oppressive pseudoscience and a maimed religion. If this religion would be called Christianity then that would be the true heresy, not the scientific theory we call evolution.

[BeforeThereWas]

Ah, yes, but this can go in the other direction too, as it did with Galileo when he wanted to publish his findings. He was persecuted by the church and the government-which was in league with the church.

We don't see this much any more, except in muslim countries and places like Argentina, where the rcc still is the state sanctioned religion.

I think that creation "science" can be taught, but in a philosophy course or religion course.

Indeed? This, then, suggests that you hold to a long ages theory? If that is the case, then how does one explain the disease, suffering and death, recorded in the fossil record (if that record in fact dates back before the Fall), if indeed those fossils do indeed date that far back before Adam?

I have had scientist friends and family look at the various proofs iven, and some are gravely false.

Oh, yeah? Well, my scientist friends are bigger and tougher than your scientist friends........;)

Did you like that? A little juvenality thrown into the mix can be fun sometimes.:P Anyway, it's pretty much a given that scientists just disagree about many things, so those issues tend to become secondary to my own system.

These were neutral people taking an objective look at the information.

Being human, I have grave doubts about any of us possessing the ability to remain completely objective about anything. If we had that ability, then we would not need the Holy Spirit, or even the Lord to guide and direct us. No offense, but unless these friends of yours have achieved deity status, they are just as prone to prejudice as any of the rest of us.

In some cases the creation science proofs presented only half of the scientific information in that area and ignored the rest that would have disproven the thesis.

I don't doubt that this is indeed a possibility. It's also plausible that the other "evidence" is equally, if not moreso, flawed, therefore the good reason for its rejection. So, when it comes to science, we are left with an almost imperical indefinite. :cool:

That is bad science, just as taking only one verse of Scripture on a subject to prove a point and ignoring the rest on the subject would be bad theology.

Absolutely.

If a majority of American churches embrace creation science it is ok. If, however, they insist on having these ideas taught as science, when they cannot be proven by empirical means - just as God's existence cannot be proven by science - then they are promoting bad science, a science mixed with beliefs, a sort of superstion as that which existed in the Middle Ages, also known as Dark Ages.

I have observed that which meets with the imperical standards of science in favor of of God's existence. It just depends on how one interprets the rules of science, just like any theological endeavor. Romans chapter 1 gives us good reason to believe why science can indeed show the evidence of His existence. The so-called "imperical" standards within science tend to shift and change colors like a chameleon, depending upon which "scientist" to whom one is speaking.

If science becomes mixed with beliefs, there will be no more objectivity, and if America learns to think in this matter, it is the beginning of the end of a successful nation.

The end of this nation is already at hand, regardless of what system of beliefs, evidence, or anything in between to which we may ascribe. History has shown that we cannot continue down the path of greed unchecked, and survive. The decadence and greed, coupled with the immorality, all spell out a well tested formula for self-destruction.

Actually, that little blurb that led to this response from you was aimed in a different direction. It was a covert observation of something else........that had nothing to do with anyone in this thread in particular.

BTW

[Qidron]

There are days when I don't feel like going, but when I get there I am more refreshed than I could imagine. It pulls me out of the defeats of the day.

GETTING BACK TO THE OP....I was rereading the answers in this thread and saw this and I have to admit...going to church did that for me too... for over 25 years...till revival or renewal or whatever you want to call it came and in coming closer to the Lord, I also got closer to the people and that's where all the truths came out....good and bad....some bad enough to open our eyes to what had been under the covers all along. :eek:

This could have happen in a house, or home, church too, I suppose, but I do not expect the power struggle would be the same....except for when we stand up for TRUTH....then we are in for it.

"All men will hate you because of ME" Jesus said. And that's a fact. So the closer we get to HIM....whether it's fellowship in a big congegation owned building or a person's humble home, or outside in the open air ....that doesn't change.

THE BROOK

[strikerchris0411]

The real question is " does going to church bring you closer to God?" and for some people itt doesn't.

And for some it does

[wanttogodeeper]

My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?


Nothing is wrong with it. However, especially in America the church (as in a building) has become more of a hindrance to relationship and outreach than a help. When the main energy of the church is used to upkeep the structure and deal with the administration of the church, there isn't much left to 'go and make disciples'.

Home church has far fewer hurdles to relationships and as someone else said 'being' church not 'going to' church.

God bless and agape.

[Bevlina]

Know what? When it's all boiled down and the fat taken off it's a person's own business if they go to church or not. Me? I go to Church. A Home Church where there are no hypocrites, no backbiting and we are all on the same footing. Nobody outdresses another, we help anyone who needs help and they do not have to come to our little Church. We are not a denomination, not is there a clique in it. It's just a little Christian Church which we all love. Try to push us to church and you'll push us further away. And, this Forum is not for debating either.

[If Not For Grace]

become more of a hindrance to relationship


Not for me, if it were not for a good neighbor and Liberty Baptist Chruch, my relationship may have remained bitter from previous spiritual abuse. I was happy to learn that just as with people, churches can be are good, bad and lukewarm.

Praise God, :groupray: There are some good ones left.

[Bevlina]

*MOD HAT ON*


This is not a Debate Forum. Any further debating could cause this thread to be closed. This Forum was created for people who do not go to a church, but instead those who have Home Churches. Please refrain from any comments which may belittle members who do not, or cannot attend a church for their own good reasons.

Thankyou.


*Mod Hat Off*

[discernomatic]

Actually, that little blurb that led to this response from you was aimed in a different direction. It was a covert observation of something else........that had nothing to do with anyone in this thread in particular.
I know it wasn't aimed at me, I just couldn't let anything that seemed to be in favor of creation science just lie there without a comment. ;) :wave:

I think that this discussion is relevant to the topic of church attendance, at least in my case.

I have been observing the doings of some Protestant para-church organisations and seen their involvement in politics and their influence on the evangelical/fundamentalist part of the US population. I see reason for concern. This segment of American society wants to influence American politics and even foreign policy with its beliefs, although American government has a duty to represent all of its citizens whatever their beliefs may be and guarantee religious freedom. IMO this can only be achieved if the government is religiously neutral, not favoring or disfavoring any religious group be it a majority or a minority. Even German TV has snapped it up, with a program just last week about the implications of creation science on American society and the effects of the beliefs of the president on foreign policy. They would not trust an American president that believed in creation science to be able to think objectively. I think that German TV addressed the issue to prevent Steiner adherents from joining what could be called a creation science movement. Waldorf groups already think in that fashion, a result of a mixture of philosophy and science that Steiner was able to present in a somewhat coherent fashion, beliefs in auras, reincarnation and spirits in inanimate objects, beliefs on the border of worship of nature are not seldom. At present they are a minority, but their ideas of nature permeate German society.

This all just makes me more resolved to stay away from any church that promotes that kind of pseudoscience. If more and more American churches insist on trying to re-invent science according to their image, this would be a very good reason to leave them, and wonder what other organisations it would be necessary to leave. I see people, even friends, that are in churches I would otherwise respect mixing science with religion. They genuinely try to "mission" the other congregation members to embrace the creation science theories - there are more than one - as if they were sound doctrine. Just because they say the world was created in six days as told in Genesis is no reason to accept all of the information given as biblical or factual. I am afraid that those that do not accept it may be seen as heretics - or like those that didn't want to receive the "blessing" in Toronto blessing type churches as "hard to receive" - a negative term. This "mission" information is often given by word of mouth from one member to another, it could be that the church leadership is not informed, but should be so they can at least look at and comment on the material being passed from hand to hand since it may contain not only faulty science but false doctrine.

Everyone can believe what they want, but personally, I will put as much distance as I can between me and a congregation that has accepted creation science as sound religious doctrine and scientific fact.

[discernomatic]

Nothing is wrong with it. However, especially in America the church (as in a building) has become more of a hindrance to relationship and outreach than a help. When the main energy of the church is used to upkeep the structure and deal with the administration of the church, there isn't much left to 'go and make disciples'.

Home church has far fewer hurdles to relationships and as someone else said 'being' church not 'going to' church.

God bless and agape.
I agree with you, wanttogodeeper. :)

[BeforeThereWas]

Everyone can believe what they want, but personally, I will put as much distance as I can between me and a congregation that has accepted creation science as sound religious doctrine and scientific fact.

This does say something. I tend to shy away from almost everything that gains popular acceptance by the institutionas, because if they embrace it wholeheartedly, then there is usually something wrong with at least some of its defining construct.

BTW

[strikerchris0411]

This does say something. I tend to shy away from almost everything that gains popular acceptance by the institutionas, because if they embrace it wholeheartedly, then there is usually something wrong with at least some of its defining construct.

BTW

Why?

[BeforeThereWas]

A good example is PK. Organizations all over the country cast themselves headlong into supporting it and starting their own branch of that philosophy with thier men. PK started out with a good idea, but there were philosophical and theologcial elements within the thinking of its defining leadership that is disturbing to anyone who accepts God's word as authoritative. Some institutions refused to accept these false teachings that eminated from PK, and were, sadly, looked down upon. I applaud those who refused to support PK and developed their own programs that are more consistent with biblical teachings.

Mainstream religion tends to buy into things that subtly ignore scriptural teachings that run counter to cultural sway. When called onto the carpet for their inconsistency with biblical teachings, they generally have meaningless, long-winded explanations, and sometimes even go so far as to pit God's word against itself.

BTW

[BeforeThereWas]

On the lighter side of things, here are some humorous letters to God, from kids of various ages, who were allowed to write their notes on the walls of their Sunday school classrooms for all to...enjoy: :P

Each one starts with "Dear God," so I will leave that out for the sake of space:

Are you really invisible, or is that a trick? Lucy

I want to be just like my Daddy when I get big but not with so much hair all over. Sam

Did you mean for giraffe to look like that or was it an accident. Norma

I keep waiting for spring but it never comes yet. Don't forget. Mark

You don't have to worry about me. I always look both ways. Dean

Instead of Letting people die and having to Make new ones, Why don't you just Keep the ones you got now? Jane

I went to this wedding, and they kissed right in church. Is that ok? Neil

I think the stapler is one of your greatest invention - Ruth M.

In bible times did they really talk that fancy? Jennifer

I think about you sometimes even whem I'm not praying. Elliot

I am American what are you? Robert

I bet it is very hard for you to love all of every body in the whole world There are only 4 people in our family and I can never do it. Nan

Thank you for the baby brother but I prayed for a puppy - Joyce

Please put a-nother holiday between Christmas and Easter. There is nothing good in there now. Ginny

If you watch in Church on Sunday I will show you my new shoes - Mickey D.

We - come - back - as - something - please - don't let - me - be Jennifer - Horton because - I - hate her. Denise

I WOULD LIKE TOO LIVE 900 YEARS LIKE THE GUY IN THE BIBLE - LOVE, CHRIS

We read thos. Edison made light. But in Sun. School they said you did it. So I bet he stolted your idea. Sincerly, Donna

If you give me Genie laml like Alladin I will give you anything you want except my money or my chess set. Raphael

If you let the dinasor not extinct we would not have a country. You did the right thing. Jonathan

Please send Dennis Clark to a different camp this year. Peter

I do not think anybody could be a better God. Well I just want you to know but I am not just saying that because you are God. Charles

Maybe Cain and Abel would not kill so much if they had their own rooms. It works with my brothers. Larry

BTW

[strikerchris0411]

A good example is PK. Organizations all over the country cast themselves headlong into supporting it and starting their own branch of that philosophy with thier men. PK started out with a good idea, but there were philosophical and theologcial elements within the thinking of its defining leadership that is disturbing to anyone who accepts God's word as authoritative. Some institutions refused to accept these false teachings that eminated from PK, and were, sadly, looked down upon. I applaud those who refused to support PK and developed their own programs that are more consistent with biblical teachings.

Mainstream religion tends to buy into things that subtly ignore scriptural teachings that run counter to cultural sway. When called onto the carpet for their inconsistency with biblical teachings, they generally have meaningless, long-winded explanations, and sometimes even go so far as to pit God's word against itself.

BTW

You cannot say that about all of it though

[GraceMan]

The church is the Body of Christ, which means you and me and our christian neighbors. Now, if you are talking about a church building, that is a place that I don't like to go to because what the leaders of that building talk about mostly is legalism. The christian is not under the law and never has been (as it were in the old testament days). These are the days of grace. You can't mix law with grace.

Read:

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

~G-Man

[Qidron]

The church is the Body of Christ, which means you and me and our christian neighbors. Now, if you are talking about a church building, that is a place that I don't like to go to because what the leaders of that building talk about mostly is legalism. The christian is not under the law and never has been (as it were in the old testament days). These are the days of grace. You can't mix law with grace.

Read:

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

~G-Man

I didn't see legalism as the problem at the "building" congregations. At least it didn't seem like we were being taught to do things to get salvation kudos....it might have been insinuated however. I'll have to think about that.

I do however see a problem with the meaning of the term legalism. There were those who cried "legalism!" in order to do whatever they wanted. Like crying rape just to divert attention from oneself and throw everyone in a tizzy about who they were pointing at. A jezabel spirit infecting a person is really good at this.

Some would throw out anything OT and say it was all legalism. The OT wasn't legalistic, it always pointed to the messiah for salvation. "Man HAS to obey the Law...man CANNOT obey the Law... therefore man deserves death...so God sent His son to die in our place....want a ticket? Follow Jesus, He is the Way, the Truth and the Life."

What the Law could not do, Jesus DID. HE IS THE GRACE WE ARE UNDER. If we are not under the sentence of the Law...that's why...not that the law was obliterated.

If we leave a fellowship because someone requires us to agree to and to adhere to God's way...then we have to look at where our allegiance lies...with God..or in getting our own way.

As for the "building" congregations...I think as soon as a group gets a building they get all wound up in the keeping up of the building...like a housewife who is more interested in the condition of her house than the condition of her heart.;)

Qidron

[BeforeThereWas]

You cannot say that about all of it though

That's why I used words like "tend", which keeps my statements from being taken as blanket statements.

BTW

[discernomatic]

That's why I used words like "tend", which keeps my statements from being taken as blanket statements.
I do that too.

I agree with your reasoning about popular spiritual trends and mainstream churches. Even emerging churches and house churches can have the same problems too.

[New_Wineskin]

I didn't see legalism as the problem at the "building" congregations. At least it didn't seem like we were being taught to do things to get salvation kudos....it might have been insinuated however. I'll have to think about that.


Many groups insinuate it and only insinuate it . They know that they cannot outright say that it is for salvation . Nowadays , I hear them say , "It isn't about works , it is about *obedience* " . That , of course , is double-talk . That is precisely what the Jewish believers were saying to the Gentile believers . Paul says otherwise .



As for the "building" congregations...I think as soon as a group gets a building they get all wound up in the keeping up of the building...like a housewife who is more interested in the condition of her house than the condition of her heart.;)

Qidron


Definitely . I wouldn't be surprised that the building maintainence is a major reason why the doctrines of tithing and church membership came about . They saw a need to lock people into the group and then demand a weekly membership fee to pay for the possessions .

[Qidron]

Concerning "legalism" I remember talking to one young girl in the congregation who had stopped attending. I asked what was wrong and she said that she was expected to be perfect and never sin, that the place was full of hypocrites and she couldn't handle that.
Now, was she saying that she was a sinner saved by grace, or was she saying she was a sinner...leave me alone...? OR was the insinuated message going out that she had to be sinless to please GOD..or was it simply to please the ppl at that church? Whatever it was, she never went back there. But then, I don't go there any more either. :)

Qidron

[New_Wineskin]

Well , here is a typical legalism ... "you must go to church" . "Must" ? "Have to" ? "Should" ?

It insinuates that salvation is maintained only if one goes to "church" .

[Qidron]

Well , here is a typical legalism ... "you must go to church" . "Must" ? "Have to" ? "Should" ?

It insinuates that salvation is maintained only if one goes to "church" .

I always figured that had to do with the scripture that says
Heb 10:25 We should not stop gathering together with other believers, as some of you are doing. Instead, we must continue to encourage each other even more as we see the day of the Lord coming.


Depending on the heart of the hearer..."must" could have to do with salvation. But we ought to know better, if we read the Word. Dontcha think? Guess that's why I never picked that up...but youre right..they certainly might have been saying that...it just never got to me.

Q

[strikerchris0411]

I always figured that had to do with the scripture that says
Heb 10:25 We should not stop gathering together with other believers, as some of you are doing. Instead, we must continue to encourage each other even more as we see the day of the Lord coming.



ok i encourage you to go to church, well the same churches tha5t were written in biblical days. Oh there are none

[BeforeThereWas]

popular spiritual trends and mainstream churches. Even emerging churches and house churches can have the same problems too.

Absolutely. It's people who bring inferior concepts into any group setting. That's why it's so difficult to find a home group that doesn't have the usual religious bone of institutionalism still protruding from the brokenness of their ability to function as spiritual giants.

BTW

[newday]

I come here to read threads alot but I don't post much.

I live in a very traditional city. The idea of "home church" means that you are "off" and not "hearing from God correctly."
That's just how it is.
My husband and I and a few others have decided to participate in a home church at our home.
I have not turned my back on God nor His precious Son Jesus.
I just no longer choose to follow and live by man's traditions.
My eyes have finally been opened to see that there is only one that I have to please and that is my Father in Heaven.
When it is all over and I have to stand before God ALL BY MYSELF, I only have to answer for what I believed and what I said and done in my body.
I don't talk negatively about my other brothers and sisters in Christ.
I read a book that helped me so much called the "Grace Awakening."
I can extended people the grace to be who they are and where they are without judging them and telling them they are off or have to do things a certain way.
I am not the judge. Thank God!
Glad to be here with you all.
Newday:)

[Qidron]

I come here to read threads alot but I don't post much.

I live in a very traditional city. The idea of "home church" means that you are "off" and not "hearing from God correctly."
That's just how it is.
My husband and I and a few others have decided to participate in a home church at our home.
I have not turned my back on God nor His precious Son Jesus.
I just no longer choose to follow and live by man's traditions.
My eyes have finally been opened to see that there is only one that I have to please and that is my Father in Heaven.
When it is all over and I have to stand before God ALL BY MYSELF, I only have to answer for what I believed and what I said and done in my body.
I don't talk negatively about my other brothers and sisters in Christ.
I read a book that helped me so much called the "Grace Awakening."
I can extended people the grace to be who they are and where they are without judging them and telling them they are off or have to do things a certain way.
I am not the judge. Thank God!
Glad to be here with you all.
Newday:)

And you are most welcome NewDay. :wave:

I understand what you say about extending grace and allowing people to be who they are, without requiring them to do differently than they have chosen. What I have experienced is that if those people are wicked at heart, they will require YOU to change...so stand firm in what the Lord gives you in this new day.

Qidron

[BeforeThereWas]

I live in a very traditional city. The idea of "home church" means that you are "off" and not "hearing from God correctly."
That's just how it is.

Yeah! That's the way I like. :D I don't like hearing from the insitutional god, because that gets in the way of hearing God.

I just no longer choose to follow and live by man's traditions.
My eyes have finally been opened to see that there is only one that I have to please and that is my Father in Heaven.

Not even Jesus was able to please men, so it's an exercise in utter futility for institutional religion to think that its people can do what even the Lord of Glory Himself was not able to accomplish.

I don't talk negatively about my other brothers and sisters in Christ.

I do! Heh heh. It's fun. That way I can make myself look better. Maybe it doesn't work with the Lord, but it sure has its advantages here on earth...

Hey! Just kidding. :P Actually, Jesus commanded that we judge NOT according to the appearance, but to judge righteous judgment. Does that mean that we at times must level a judgment against one who professes Christ who is acting or teaching inappropriately, or some other outplay of fallen humanity? Most who post here speak in general rather than using specific names, unless it's someone like Benny Hinn and his antics. Some like to ask how anyone could "tyouch God's annointed?". Quite frankly, I want to know how those people gained a knowledge that Benny Hinn is God's annointed? What evidence is there of such? Aren't we all annointed who are in Christ? These little tidbits used as a means of derailing others who have the courage to call a spade a spade serve only to try and gain the upper hand in defense of those who are not worthy.

I read a book that helped me so much called the "Grace Awakening."
I can extended people the grace to be who they are and where they are without judging them and telling them they are off or have to do things a certain way.

What a tragic book (from what you have said thus far). It defies the very teaching of Christ in this regard. Even unbelievers know that verse "Judge not..." Well, people who recite that as wrote generally have no depth to their understanding. Jesus doesn't want us "...as we are..." He said quite plainly, "If you love me, keep my commandments." If we are to edify one another, that doesn't mean that we sit back and refrain from spurring one another to greater heights, and even having to get into one another's face, just as Paul did with Peter.

I am not the judge.

We are judges, just not of the calibre of the Lord. We do not judge in the place of the Lord. We do not judge another's ultimate destination in eternity, for we have no such knowledge. We judge according to the standard of God's righteousness. That book pulls out from under the feet of those who follow its teachings the very authority (although limited) we have been given by the Lord. If we are His ambassadors, His emissaries, then refusal to serve in that capacity is a denial of the very heritage to which we have been called. We MUST spur one another on to righteousness. I sometimes need a swift kick in the kiester for my error. I expect it. Those who refuse to honor me with such a kick are dishonoring not only myself, but themselves and the Lord.

Glad to be here with you all.

Me too. :) Loving one another means that we somtimes must do the unsavory in this fallen world of ours.

BTW

[If Not For Grace]

Where I am from Home Church/School also has a negative connotation it = those who could not cut learning in a traditional setting. These are often seen as eclectic or geeks or special needs persons, or at best "drop outs".

[Qidron]

Where I am from Home Church/School also has a negative connotation it = those who could not cut learning in a traditional setting. These are often seen as eclectic or geeks or special needs persons, or at best "drop outs".

I've heard the same thing said about the folks who hang around internet forums. :thumbsup: If that's what it takes to break away from the maddening crowd...okedoke...then ima Special Needs person. :holy:

the QID

[BeforeThereWas]

...then ima Special Needs person. :holy:

the QID

Heh. :P I guess that goes for all of us. :help:

[discernomatic]

I've heard the same thing said about the folks who hang around internet forums. :thumbsup: If that's what it takes to break away from the maddening crowd...okedoke...then ima Special Needs person. :holy:

the QID
I've always been one of those kind anyway, so what is new? :cool:

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I come here to read threads alot but I don't post much.

I live in a very traditional city. The idea of "home church" means that you are "off" and not "hearing from God correctly."
That's just how it is.
My husband and I and a few others have decided to participate in a home church at our home.
I have not turned my back on God nor His precious Son Jesus.
I just no longer choose to follow and live by man's traditions.
My eyes have finally been opened to see that there is only one that I have to please and that is my Father in Heaven.
When it is all over and I have to stand before God ALL BY MYSELF, I only have to answer for what I believed and what I said and done in my body.
I don't talk negatively about my other brothers and sisters in Christ.
I read a book that helped me so much called the "Grace Awakening."
I can extended people the grace to be who they are and where they are without judging them and telling them they are off or have to do things a certain way.
I am not the judge. Thank God!
Glad to be here with you all.
Newday:)


ALL BY MYSELF might not make it, will Yeshua testify for you?
in a home/house church, at work, in your neighborhood - do you testify to
your oneness with Yeshua and obey Him? if you do, well and good, then He Will Testify for you before the Father.
but, in a big or small or home or organized or any kind of church, if you
don't obey trustingly,
you [anybody] don't have a chance.
Yeshua didn't die on a tree to give you a chance to do what you want,
Yeshua did die on a tree to give you a chance to do what He wants.

this may be touchy for some people. if Yeshua(Jesus) IS L_RD, then who
decides what to do?

in denoms, Yeshua is not L_rd - they rejected the chief cornerstone.
in some homechurches, Yeshua is not L_rd, they just get comfy.

in[and out of] denoms and homechurches,
some people may be found subject to Yeshua,
obeying Yhwh's Eternal Word.
The Way of Truth is painful and agonizing, and few are there who find it.
It requires every bit of your energy and resources.
In the BODY, you will find rest freely giving yourself for others.
Out of the BODY, you will find physical comfort as your own needs are met
but others still go hungry, naked, and homeless in your neighborhood.
In the BODY, you make sure others needs are met first, before your own -
this is how G_D's Word describes how others will know you are HIS, by the
selfsacrificial giving you have for one another.
even if, or in spite of, or because of,
being hurt very much yourself, G_d will still give you peace and joy and
righteousness beyond all your fellows
as you do what is right,serving others, or Jesus Himself ...Matther 25 ?

this is a warning to those who serve self, to turn to G_d and by healed,
and an encouragement to whosoever has lost[given up] everything for His Sake, you are received into the Kingdom, fear nothing.

[discernomatic]

So what's the problem? I think newday has gotten the concept of grace. Y'know, salvation through faith by grace, not by works. We don't judge, God does. She has also gotten the concept of serving God rather than man, we are answerable only to God anyway. The veil was torn, and anyone that believes needs no priest except Jesus Christ - who always lives to intercede for us. That is something to be happy about! :clap: