What is going on with the old calendar church?

[Silent Bob]

From what I know the Greek patriarchy has excommunicated them except for the monasteries in Mount Athos. However the people here view it as a stricter version of Orthodoxy. Does anyone know what is going on? I'd like to know more, both facts and oppinions, on the issue.

[Philip]

From what I know the Greek patriarchy has excommunicated them except for the monasteries in Mount Athos. However the people here view it as a stricter version of Orthodoxy. Does anyone know what is going on? I'd like to know more, both facts and oppinions, on the issue.

Can you provide more details?

[ExOrienteLux]

Are you confusing those who use the Julian Calendar (as opposed to those who use the Revised Julian [ie. Gregorian] Calendar) with the Old Calendarists?

-Philip.

[Silent Bob]

As is always the case with reform movements, there was strong opposition to the adoption of the New Calendar, especially in Greece. What differed in this situation, however, was that reform was initiated by the established Church together with the total backing of the state. Groups of "Old Calendarists" or Palaioemerologitai, refused to abide by the Church's decision and continued to follow the Old Calendar for both movable and immovable feast days. The basis of their refusal to abandon the Old Calendar rested on the argument that canons ratified by an Ecumenical Synod knew only of the Julian Calendar. Therefore, nothing less than an Ecumenical Synod had the authority to institute a reform of such proportion. In view of their refusal to submit to the authority of the Church of Greece, the official Church excommunicated them. This was not the case with the monasteries of Mt. Athos. Although all but one (i.e., 19 monasteries) continued to follow the Old Calendar, they are under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople with which they continue to be in communion. Despite attempts by the civil authorities in Greece to suppress them, the "Old Calendarists" continue to exist there and abroad and to maintain a hierarchy of their own together with parishes and monasteries.

According to this article the Old Calendarists are those who use the Julian calendar sooo I can't see what I am confusing there.

Source (http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7070.asp).

[ExOrienteLux]

There's a fairly sizable difference. The Old Calendarists (Palaiomerologitai) schismed from their mother Church over this issue. There are, however, many who believe that the Old Calendar should be reinstated over the whole Orthodox world (myself included) and there are several Churches that still use the Julian Calendar (namely, Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, and Romania - there's probably more, but I don't remember).

The difference is that one group are schismatics and the other group are canonical Christians who disagree with the hierarchs over their decision.

-Philip.

[Kolya]

I am Russian Orthodox, and we use the old Julian calendar for all fasts and feasts. To my knowledge it is the Greek aligned churches who use the New Gregorian Calendar, and the Finnish Church. I may be wrong, but I think the OCA uses the Gregorian Calendar too. but the Antiochians are Old (Julian) Calendar. As far as I am concerned, the Greek Church is out of line in using the New Gregorian calendar, but that is only my opinion.

[ExOrienteLux]

Antiochians are definitely NCs.

-Philip.

[Kolya]

Antiochians are definitely NCs.

-Philip.

Thank's Philip. So it looks like we're split down the centre on this. :) We have the strict fast on this Sunday - The beheading of St. John the Forerunner - on 9/11 no less!

[ExOrienteLux]

I think Christ and St. John are trying to tell us something.

When were the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington? 11 Sept/29 Aug.

When did Katrina make landfall on the Gulf coast? 29 Aug.

-Philip.

[Kolya]

I think Christ and St. John are trying to tell us something.

When were the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington? 11 Sept/29 Aug.

When did Katrina make landfall on the Gulf coast? 29 Aug.

-Philip.

I've been thinking along the same lines...:eek:

[prodromos]

From what I know the Greek patriarchy has excommunicated them except for the monasteries in Mount Athos.
The Old Calendarists have schismed, that is they consider the canonical church in Greece to be without grace. Naturally, the Church of Greece will not commune someone who considers their sacraments to be worthless, not that it was really necessary to excommunicate them since an Old Calendarist would never partake in a canonical church anyway.

The monasteries on Mount Athos are not Old Calendarist, they simply follow the old calendar. There are a few monasteries throughout Greece which are Old Calendarist and they are not in communion with Mount Athos. Monks from Mount Athos will not commune in those monasteries.

I'm sympathetic to the Old Calendarists' stand and wish that the church in Greece would return to the Old Calendar. I know a few priests who also desire the same. Unfortunately I don't see it happening in the near future.

John

[prodromos]

I think Christ and St. John are trying to tell us something.

When were the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington? 11 Sept/29 Aug.

When did Katrina make landfall on the Gulf coast? 29 Aug.
That it doesn't matter which calendar you are on? :scratch:

[Khaleas]

I am Russian Orthodox, and we use the old Julian calendar for all fasts and feasts. To my knowledge it is the Greek aligned churches who use the New Gregorian Calendar, and the Finnish Church. I may be wrong, but I think the OCA uses the Gregorian Calendar too. but the Antiochians are Old (Julian) Calendar. As far as I am concerned, the Greek Church is out of line in using the New Gregorian calendar, but that is only my opinion.

Now don't get me started on the Finnish Ort. Church... while I love them, they need to stop thinking that they are better than anyone else celebrating Pasha with the West. I'll try to find time to translate one of the editorials by the bishops here soon.... :sigh: It was surprisingly arrogant.

[Ioan cel Nou]

There's a fairly sizable difference. The Old Calendarists (Palaiomerologitai) schismed from their mother Church over this issue. There are, however, many who believe that the Old Calendar should be reinstated over the whole Orthodox world (myself included) and there are several Churches that still use the Julian Calendar (namely, Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, and Romania - there's probably more, but I don't remember).

The difference is that one group are schismatics and the other group are canonical Christians who disagree with the hierarchs over their decision.

-Philip.

We in the Romanian Church, unfortunately, do actually use the New Calendar for the fixed feasts so, while I wish that it weren't the case, I have to point out an error in your post. There is an Old Calendarist Church in Romania which is in schism with us and is based at Slatioara monastery, not far from my wife's home town and I've met several of their monks.

Like John, I'm somewhat sympathetic to their stand and wish the whole Church would return to the Old Calendar, but I'm not about to run off and join them in their schism, no matter how admirable I have found many of them to be - and they certainly are. I also share John's pessimism that this will happen any time soon.

James

[xristos.anesti]

I belive that institution of the New (Reformed) Calendar was wrong.

I belive that Old Calendar should be re-instituted in the whole of the Orthodox Church.

I belive that going into schism for the sake of calendar is wrong.

[Ioan cel Nou]

I belive that institution of the New (Reformed) Calendar was wrong.

I belive that Old Calendar should be re-instituted in the whole of the Orthodox Church.

I belive that going into schism for the sake of calendar is wrong.

And I agree with you completely

[Nickolai]

Yeah, why should we follow what the canons say and celebrate Nativity on the 25th. ;)

[xristos.anesti]

Well, we always celebrated Nativity on the 25th. (I am a Serb and our Nativity IS on the 25 Dec. It only falls on the 7 Jan - of the "worldly" calendar; the "Serbian" New Year is on the 14 Jan which is the 1 Dec of the Old Calendar).

Also, the CANONS are in regard to Pascha and not Nativity.

[vanshan]

Based on OST (Orthodox Standard Time), we will not know who is right and who is wrong in the old calendar/new calendar debate for several centuries, but I think the specific old calendarists you are thinking of are a more extreme schismatic group. The normal majority of old calenarists are fully canonical.

Are all the monasteries on Mt. Athos still using the Julian calendar? I thought some had changed.

Basil

[Nickolai]

Well, we always celebrated Nativity on the 25th. (I am a Serb and our Nativity IS on the 25 Dec. It only falls on the 7 Jan - of the "worldly" calendar; the "Serbian" New Year is on the 14 Jan which is the 1 Dec of the Old Calendar).

Also, the CANONS are in regard to Pascha and not Nativity.

the "worldy" calender? Care to show me when the Church has ever adopted it's own calender? The Julian calender is also a "worldly" calender.

And there is a canon from the 4th cantury that says anyone who celebrates Nativity on a date other than Dec. 25 is Anethema.

[xristos.anesti]

That is why worldly is marked under " ", so that people can see that that word is used as a argumentative suplement. Due to difference between ecclesial calendar and public calendar (in Serbia) the Serbian Nativity falls on 7 January of this Public Calendar (Gregorian). While in Ecclesial reality this is 25 December.

Church of Greece, however, has changed her calendar (revised it) and their Nativity is 25 December and it falls on 25 December.

So, the supposition of the Canon (which is the guide not a law) is still fullfilled as the Nativity in both cases is on the 25 December.

The ONLY supposition that was questioned was Pascha and this is solved by Revised part of the Calendar, that is, by use of Orthodox Paschalia.

[Xpycoctomos]

There are, however, many who believe that the Old Calendar should be reinstated over the whole Orthodox world (myself included)

Count me in on that as well.

[Xpycoctomos]

I am Russian Orthodox, and we use the old Julian calendar for all fasts and feasts.



I'm Russian Orthodox too. But, unfortunately (and I say that with reservations because surely there are bishops far wiser than I... but we also know that bishops often crumble to whiney laypeople. The Church council is such a disaster!) MP Parishes in the States were given the choice between Old and New and we are New. Apparently there is about nil chance of us ever going back. Oh well. I still love my parish however disorganized the calendar may be. ;)

[Xpycoctomos]

I belive that institution of the New (Reformed) Calendar was wrong.

I belive that Old Calendar should be re-instituted in the whole of the Orthodox Church.

I belive that going into schism for the sake of calendar is wrong.

I agree.

[Xpycoctomos]

Now don't get me started on the Finnish Ort. Church... while I love them, they need to stop thinking that they are better than anyone else celebrating Pasha with the West. I'll try to find time to translate one of the editorials by the bishops here soon.... :sigh: It was surprisingly arrogant.

Wait, don't the Finnish have a spcial dispensation that allows them to celebrate pascha on the same date as the Lutheran majority? Are you saying that some of the hierarchy are arrogant about that or are you referring to the heirarchy in Finland who remain with the Old Calendar being arrogant? Either way, it's stupid to be arogant about one's calendar. I don't think the NC makes any sense and although I am personally convinced that
1) it didn't offer ANYTHING towards reconciliation with the West (as if mere dates are really a point of serious contention with the Catholic Church) and
2) it wasn't really about that but about something else... wierd that I can't really figure out but that must be political
... I could never be arrogant if I were OC (just happy!) or NC (just happily confused! lol). Thankfully I think most Orthodox, whether NC or OC at heart or totally indifferent to the Calendar all together, agree that this is NOT a divisive matter. There are important things to consider in the ortodoxy of one's creed and doctrine... this is not one of them.

But, I am preaching to the choir... thankfully.

John

[Khaleas]

Wait, don't the Finnish have a spcial dispensation that allows them to celebrate pascha on the same date as the Lutheran majority? Are you saying that some of the hierarchy are arrogant about that or are you referring to the heirarchy in Finland who remain with the Old Calendar being arrogant? Either way, it's stupid to be arogant about one's calendar. I don't think the NC makes any sense and although I am personally convinced that
1) it didn't offer ANYTHING towards reconciliation with the West (as if mere dates are really a point of serious contention with the Catholic Church) and
2) it wasn't really about that but about something else... wierd that I can't really figure out but that must be political
... I could never be arrogant if I were OC (just happy!) or NC (just happily confused! lol). Thankfully I think most Orthodox, whether NC or OC at heart or totally indifferent to the Calendar all together, agree that this is NOT a divisive matter. There are important things to consider in the ortodoxy of one's creed and doctrine... this is not one of them.

But, I am preaching to the choir... thankfully.

John

Well, they sorta had. They started out with a dispensation that was supposed to be renewed each year (or every five years) but after a while they stopped applying for the dispensation and just kept the date.
No one other than the MP parish remains on Old Calender in Finland, but you'll see what I mean as soon as I get this thing translated. He basically said that the churched who still celebrate Pasha not by western time are behind and this that and the other thing... (WELL, HELLOOOO, you happen to be the only one).

[Xpycoctomos]

I look forward to reading that. Very interesting.

[Rilian]

Sounds like a certain bishop has been spending a little too much time in the sauna.

[Silent Bob]

Thanks for all the info. My original intention was to find out what it is meant by the excommunication of the Old Calendarist church.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Frankly, I think there is too much attention put on the calendar. I mean with the exception of Pascha, all of the dates are moveable. In regards to the Nativity, we have no proof that Christ was born in December, January, or August for that matter. So in reality, all dates (Pascha, again, being the exception) are moveable.

I was raised in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church which is Old Calendar. I now attend an OCA parish. The date on the calendar has no bearing on my faith. (That is, my faith in God is not changed for better or worse based on a man made calendar.)

What IS important is that we remember and celebrate the feasts and fasts of the church, regardless of which day they fall on.

That’s my $.02 on the matter…

In XC,

Maureen

[rafaeldaher]

I agree.

Me too. This is the best explanation.

I prefer the Old Calendar, but i dont wanna go to a Synod on Resistance or some like that.

[Shubunkin]

Peace.... :confused: :clap: :liturgy: :preach:

[xristos.anesti]

Charitina!!!




You are presenting the worse of the worse of the worse of the dreaded ecumeniacs!!

You have a Cradle Orthododox :confused: , worshipping with an Evangelical :clap: , worshipping with a Latin :liturgy: , woshipping with a Baptist :preach: ....


IS OUTRAGE!!!






^_^

[Shubunkin]

Charitina!!!




You are presenting the worse of the worse of the worse of the dreaded ecumeniacs!!

You have a Cradle Orthododox , worshipping with an Evangelical , worshipping with a Latin :liturgy: , woshipping with a Baptist :preach: ....


IS OUTRAGE!!!




^_^


You are correct! :eek: What was I thinking??? :help:

[Shubunkin]

Charitina!!!




You are presenting the worse of the worse of the worse of the dreaded ecumeniacs!!

You have a Cradle Orthododox :confused: , worshipping with an Evangelical :clap: , worshipping with a Latin :liturgy: , woshipping with a Baptist :preach: ....


IS OUTRAGE!!!








Wait!! They are here to convert!! :D

[MariaRegina]

I've been thinking along the same lines...:eek:

R E P E N T

OR

E L S E

[rafaeldaher]

Charitina!!!




You are presenting the worse of the worse of the worse of the dreaded ecumeniacs!!

You have a Cradle Orthododox , worshipping with an Evangelical , worshipping with a Latin , woshipping with a Baptist ....


IS OUTRAGE!!!



^_^

:clap:

[Xpycoctomos]

I was raised in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church which is Old Calendar. I now attend an OCA parish. The date on the calendar has no bearing on my faith. (That is, my faith in God is not changed for better or worse based on a man made calendar.)
I think most everyone agrees with this. I don't think anyone here would change their faith in God based on any calendar change.


Frankly, I think there is too much attention put on the calendar. I mean with the exception of Pascha, all of the dates are moveable. In regards to the Nativity, we have no proof that Christ was born in December, January, or August for that matter. So in reality, all dates (Pascha, again, being the exception) are moveable.

What IS important is that we remember and celebrate the feasts and fasts of the church, regardless of which day they fall on.


I don't think anyone (who takes themselves seriously) makes any case that The Lord was probably born in December. This has very little (probably nothing) to do with why it is in december. If we look at the liturgical year as a historically accurate to-the-date anniversary of the varying things that took place we could concievably be remember all of the feasts in a span of two to three months. Rather, the Liturgical calendar takes us through a spiritual journey... a journey that (in ideal situations) we would all be sharing together... fasting together and feasting together. Sure, this does not obliterate the Church. Surely in the early early Church there was not a unified calendar... even the times and lengths of Lent (evem who participated!) varied from region to region. This is also true of the Liturgy. But there is strength in unity and I do not think it was by accident or grave misfortune that the Church began to unify Herself in practices (liturgy, fast days, feast days and so on). You said that the liturgical calendar was "manmade" and I agree with you. This can be historically proven. But then you will also agree with me that the Divine Liturgy is manmade. This does not mean that it was not uniquely inspired by the Holy Spirit.. indeed it was. I would suggest that the Liturgical calendar was also inspired by the Holy Spirit and it's development of the centuries was also inspired. While I don't see the New Calendar as having lost its' blessedness (since all of the feast days are still included and in the same order), we have lost some liturgical unity. I'm sure you will quickly retort that doctrinal unity is far more important than calendar unity... andi will quickly agree with you. This is why I see no reason for me to change parishes simply due to the Calendar. I love my parish and it is where I grow. I (and others here) are merely saying that this New Calendar and seemed to offer nothing positive to the Orthodox Church and has only increased others' fears (warranted or not) that the OC is giving into modernism and willing to concede anything to reunite with Rome (because that was the original context in which these changes were made... although I don't understand how this offered anything to our possible reconciliation).

No one is saying that the Liturgical Calendar is the end-all... but we are saying that is it indeed something very Holy, time-tested and should not be messed with except for good and holy reasons... some of us are just having a hard time seeing what was good or Holy (or effective) in these reasons.

Others will disagree and think that the New Calendar is fantastic. And that's fine. Old Calendar (those in union) or New, they are my brothers and sisters in Christ, period. That doesn't make the Calendar issue unimportant, but rather non-divisive, IMHO

God bless,

John

[anastasios]

I am a member of an Old Calendarist Church (http://www.thegreekorthodoxchurch.com) and wrote my M.Div. thesis at St. Vladimir's Seminary on an Old Calendarist bishop, Metropolitan Petros of Astoria.

I also have read basically everything available on Old Calendarists from both Old Calendarist and New Calendarist points of view that is available in the English language. I am learning Greek and then I can start reading the stuff in that language.

I may be able to answer any specific questions anyone may have, but last year I posted on the subject and caused offense (although none was intended) to some posters and I simply do not want to do that again. So I will not argue the issue with anyone, but will be happy to provide either fact-based answers (i.e. our Church believes x because of a, b, or c) or citations/references/book suggestions.

If you are interested, please either post in this thread, private message me, or email me at anastasios0513@yahoo.com

Please note that I am currently focusing on finding employment and most of my internet time is spent on my own website that I moderate, so may take awhile to respond.

If the moderators of this forum feel I am soliciting (which is not my intent) please feel free to delete this post and no offense will be taken. Again, I will not engage in any kind of polemics but will be happy to answer fact-based questions.

Yours in Christ,

Anastasios

[Emmanuel-A]

I may be able to answer any specific questions anyone may have, but last year I posted on the subject and caused offense (although none was intended) to some posters and I simply do not want to do that again. So I will not argue the issue with anyone, but will be happy to provide either fact-based answers (i.e. our Church believes x because of a, b, or c) or citations/references/book suggestions.



Anastasios,

A good friend of mine is under the Makarios of Athens synod (one of the dozens of GOC Synods that are based in Greece).
I'm a bit lost and looking for a partial story (at least as partial as possible) about the different "Auxentian" synods and the reasons why they split.
Like, why isn't your synod (the one of Chrysostom Kiousis if I understand well) in communion with the one of Makarios (Kavakidis) ?

[Xpycoctomos]

Anastasios,

A good friend of mine is under the Makarios of Athens synod (one of the dozens of GOC Synods that are based in Greece).
I'm a bit lost and looking for a partial story (at least as partial as possible) about the different "Auxentian" synods and the reasons why they split.
Like, why isn't your synod (the one of Chrysostom Kiousis if I understand well) in communion with the one of Makarios (Kavakidis) ?


I think you mean "impartial" (sans préjugé).

[Emmanuel-A]

I think you mean "impartial" (sans préjugé).

Yes, I meant "impartial". Thanks for correcting me.

[anastasios]

Anastasios,

A good friend of mine is under the Makarios of Athens synod (one of the dozens of GOC Synods that are based in Greece).
I'm a bit lost and looking for a partial story (at least as partial as possible) about the different "Auxentian" synods and the reasons why they split.
Like, why isn't your synod (the one of Chrysostom Kiousis if I understand well) in communion with the one of Makarios (Kavakidis) ?

Dear Emmanuel,

Thanks for your question. There are not really "dozens" of GOC Synods in Greece although being that there are more than one is indeed sad. I contend--and others will surely disagree--that there really is only one viable and historic GOC, that of Archbishop Chrysostomos II (Kiousis), which is why I joined that Synod over the others.

As you probably know, Archbishop Auxentios was consecrated by Archbishop Akakios (Pappas) the first GOC archbishop of Athens, and Archbishop Leonty of Chile (ROCOR). From most accounts, he was a holy man, but was not a skilled administrator. He made several blatent errors in the 1970's, which led to two results: firstly, ROCOR severed concelebrations with the GOC in 1976 (but continued to commune the GOC faithful) and in 1979 the Auxentian Synod was spilt into two, with the other faction being under Metropolitan Kallistos of Corinth. This faction saw itself as a reform movement. Most of the bishops of this synod later reunited with Auxentios, save for Metropolitans Cyprian and Giovvani of Sardinia, who formed their own Synod, based on their unique ecclesiology.

The majority of Old Calendarist bishops were united by 1985, and Auxentios was deposed for canonical infractions. Chrysostomos II was elected as his successor, although Auxentios and two or three other bishops did not accept the deposition and set up their own "synod", although numerically it was insignificant. This synod later took in the HOCNA group when it left ROCOR.

This reunited Synod of Chrysostomos II stayed united but with several canonical problems and difficulties, into 1995. In 1995, six bishops separated from the Synod; two soon returned, two later were "reordained" by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and abandoned the Old Calendar altogether (these "reordinations"--done for political reasons--were protested by His Beatitude Diodoros of Jerusalem, who had previously concelebrated with these bishops), and two formed the Synod which is now under Makarios of Athens. From every report I have from people in Greece, this is a rather small jurisidiction with no tangible membership. Perhaps your friend or others in this synod can correct my impressions.

Hence, the situation as we now have it is that Chrysostomos II is the head of the largest GOC Synod and the one that can most clearly demonstrate historical roots with the original GOC, the Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian which I personally admire for its publishing efforts but whom I lament for their separation from my Synod, the Synod of Makarios which separated from Chrysostomos II, and a basically now-defunct Church under Auxentios's successor Maximos. I am not addressing the Matthewites, which are a rather small and early schism from the GOC (undoubtedly, they will protest).

Of these divisions, only the Chrysostomos II Synod has full legal recognition from the Greek government, somewhere around 190-200 parishes, a large number of faithful, and historical connectivity with the original GOC movement. The Synod of Archbishop Chrysostomos II is in dialogue with the New Calendarist Orthodox Church of Greece and it is my sincere prayer that the divisions between the two bodies can be resolved sooner than later.

Please let me know if this answered your question and if there are any more you have.

In Christ,

Anastasios

[Emmanuel-A]

Anastasios, thanks for your long answer.

There are not really "dozens" of GOC Synods in Greece


Yes, "dozens" is an exaggeration. Sorry.

But I can spontaneously think of at least six of them and I'm sure I forget some, which is confusing, really.



This reunited Synod of Chrysostomos II stayed united but with several canonical problems and difficulties, into 1995. In 1995, six bishops separated from the Synod; two soon returned, two later were "reordained" by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and abandoned the Old Calendar altogether (these "reordinations"--done for political reasons--were protested by His Beatitude Diodoros of Jerusalem, who had previously concelebrated with these bishops), and two formed the Synod which is now under Makarios of Athens. From every report I have from people in Greece, this is a rather small jurisidiction with no tangible membership. Perhaps your friend or others in this synod can correct my impressions.

Why did those six bishops leave ?

I ask this, because Makarios jurisdiction may be small in Greece, but in my country (France), the only significant GOC community is under his synod (they have a dozen parishes and a bishop, Philaret,that split with hocna in 2002 and joined Makarios). The only other GOC are a small Matthewite parish, lost in the Pyrrenean mountains.

Although I'm not GOC, I admit that they, at least in France, do a great work of publishing and translations of services, theological works in local language that the canonic orthodox churches have for a long time been uncapable or unwilling to do. And I'm thankful for that.

In Christ

Emmanuel

[Petronius]

[QUOTE=ExOrienteLux]There's a fairly sizable difference. The Old Calendarists (Palaiomerologitai) schismed from their mother Church over this issue. There are, however, many who believe that the Old Calendar should be reinstated over the whole Orthodox world (myself included) and there are several Churches that still use the Julian Calendar (namely, Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, and Romania - there's probably more, but I don't remember).

You are wrong, Romania is using the New Calendar. As a personal opinion: there is no Divine reason to keep the old calendar, other than bigotism. If one takes into consideration the imperfection of the Old calendar, in some centuries Christmas will be in spring and Pascha in winter...

[Petronius]

From what I know the Greek patriarchy has excommunicated them except for the monasteries in Mount Athos. However the people here view it as a stricter version of Orthodoxy. Does anyone know what is going on? I'd like to know more, both facts and oppinions, on the issue.
A real debate ! Let us take it systematically. I think that some fact are not known and this is fueling useless the debate.
First to make clear:

What was the reason for switching from Julian to Gregorian Calendar ?
Is this clear for evrybody ? I am waiting for some answers to make a test and see how to continue this point of view.

[anastasios]

You are wrong, Romania is using the New Calendar. As a personal opinion: there is no Divine reason to keep the old calendar, other than bigotism. If one takes into consideration the imperfection of the Old calendar, in some centuries Christmas will be in spring and Pascha in winter...

I think there are reasons to use the Julian Calendar other than bigotism, and I wonder if the author intended the above statement to apply to all Old Calendar Churches such as Serbia and Russia, or just to those separated over the Calendar.

A fine treatment of the subject of the Calendar from the Old Calendarist point of view is A Scientific Examination of the Orthodox Church Calendar available here: http://users.sisqtel.net/sgpm/ctos/oldcal/ Interestingly enough, if the "Revised Julian Calendar" continues to be used in the New Calendar Orthodox Churches, in some centuries Christmas and Pascha will fall on the same day.

[anastasios]

Anastasios, thanks for your long answer.
But I can spontaneously think of at least six of them and I'm sure I forget some, which is confusing, really.

Indeed.

Why did those six bishops leave ?

From the Makarian point of view, because Archbishop Chrysostomos II diverted synodal funds to a shadow corporation according to their allegations. From the Chrysostomos II point of view, because Metropolitan Euthymius of Thessalonika was to be brought up on charges of immorality. It is a rather complex issue to say the least. What is most fascinating is that of the six to split, only two remained in the split off group as noted above, and they quickly ordained others to bolster their strength.

I ask this, because Makarios jurisdiction may be small in Greece, but in my country (France), the only significant GOC community is under his synod (they have a dozen parishes and a bishop, Philaret,that split with hocna in 2002 and joined Makarios). The only other GOC are a small Matthewite parish, lost in the Pyrrenean mountains.

That is fascinating. All I can say is that I wish that our Synod were present in France. Schisms are most insidious because of the way they affect the common parish life of the faithful, causing division, confusion, and difficulties. :cry:

Although I'm not GOC, I admit that they, at least in France, do a great work of publishing and translations of services, theological works in local language that the canonic orthodox churches have for a long time been uncapable or unwilling to do. And I'm thankful for that.

I am happy that that is the case. HOCNA produces fine liturgical materials in the English language and the GOC uses them oftentimes.

In Christ,

Anastasios

[Petronius]

I think there are reasons to use the Julian Calendar other than bigotism, and I wonder if the author intended the above statement to apply to all Old Calendar Churches such as Serbia and Russia, or just to those separated over the Calendar.

A fine treatment of the subject of the Calendar from the Old Calendarist point of view is A Scientific Examination of the Orthodox Church Calendar available here:

In this comprehensive study of the calendar issue, Father Cassian refutes the “received view” that the Gregorian Calendar is more precise astronomically than the Julian Calendar, proving with an abundance of scientific evidence that it is impossible, given what we know about time and space, to devise any calendar that would be entirely accurate.

There are projects of calendars that are much more accurate, but this would mean a completely different system, with decades instead of weeks etc etc etc, which will really affect the church life and also the existing social life, for this reason and many others) these calendar systems (for example the maya calendar is more precise) were not adopted although were considered at one time point.
The Revised Julian Calendar or the Gregorian Calendar or the New Calendar IS more precise.
There will be no precise calendar just becuase the definition of second and the period of the revlution of the Earth around The Sun and the period of spinning are not comensurable.

From a theological viewpoint, he shows that the “Revised Julian” Calendar introduced by the ecumenists of the Phanar is a veritable Trojan horse in the citadel of Orthodoxy, which has caused untold damage to the liturgical life of the Church.

This is a statement of the recenzist of the book and this speak for itself in the direction of bigotism.

If there is no precise calendar, there is no reason not to adopt a more precise calendar despite of a less precise calendar, just because the more precise Clendar was initially adopted by the Pope and the Catholic Church, inbig scism by that time.




Interestingly enough, if the "Revised Julian Calendar" continues to be used in the New Calendar Orthodox Churches, in some centuries Christmas and Pascha will fall on the same day.

Yes, this is a very good point, just because according to the Old Calendar, the Spring Equinox is not a referance for the Calendar, but the Astronomical Events (set up by our Lord) are forced to comply with the Calendar (set up by humans)... And how do you call this ? Bigotism could be an appropriate word, it can then approach heresy...

[vanshan]

HOCNA produces fine liturgical materials in the English language and the GOC uses them oftentimes.


Holy Transfiguration Monastery (HOCNA), when it was part of ROCOR, did produce some good liturgical resources, such as a nice translation of the Psalter, which is own, but their history is problematic, so it's hard to purchase materials from them, for fear of supporting what is apparently a schismatic group, plagued with mulitple charges of sexual abuse and cult-like behavior. I cannot ignore the mass of information presented against them, such as can be found here: http://hocna.info

If these allegations are false, I will heartily repent, but it's hard to ignore so many charges against them, and let others, like I have done, ignorantly support them.

Basil

[anastasios]

Yes, this is a very good point, just because according to the Old Calendar, the Spring Equinox is not a referance for the Calendar, but the Astronomical Events (set up by our Lord) are forced to comply with the Calendar (set up by humans)... And how do you call this ? Bigotism could be an appropriate word, it can then approach heresy...

I'm sorry, I can't follow your post because you seem to be mixing quoted material with your own comments. I don't think it's bigoted that the author shows that the Revised Julian Calendar has some problems with it; you bring up the point that the Julian Calendar has some problems with it, so why is it bigoted to point out the problems with the Revised? There is a whole chapter on that book that lists various liturgical problems that occur on the New Calendar. Anyway, as I said, I didn't really come here to debate the Calendar issue; if you want to get a viewpoint other than the one you already hold and form a more thorough understanding of the Old Calendarist point of view, please do check out that book; if you are already convinced we are "heretics" (which I am not sure you can do without reading up on our point of view) then I wish you the best.

Anastasios

[anastasios]

Holy Transfiguration Monastery (HOCNA), when it was part of ROCOR, did produce some good liturgical resources, such as a nice translation of the Psalter, which is own, but their history is problematic, so it's hard to purchase materials from them, for fear of supporting what is apparently a schismatic group, plagued with mulitple charges of sexual abuse and cult-like behavior. I cannot ignore the mass of information presented against them, such as can be found here: http://hocna.info (http://hocna.info/)

If these allegations are false, I will heartily repent, but it's hard to ignore so many charges against them, and let others, like I have done, ignorantly support them.

Basil

I continue to use their materials despite my awareness of these charges because their materials are simply of the highest quality and there is nothing else available in English in my opinion that fits my needs like this (namely, traditional English, prosomia hymns translated to Greek metre, etc). HTM is so marginalized now that purchasing their materials is not going to have either a positive or negative impact on Orthodoxy in America, I would say.

In regards to the hocna.info site, you should be aware of the author of that site; Archbishop Gregory of Colorado, an independent bishop who has his own set of questionable credentials and who left HOCNA with an axe to grind many years before the sex scandals were alleged. I am not saying that invalidates the material presented, but it is possible that the information is being skewed. At any rate, I myself do not know enough about the HOCNA situation to make an informed judgment about the scandals, but I would agree that they are schismatic (although undoubtedly for different reasons than you!) :)

Anastasios

[Akathist]

The insense from Holy Transifiguration Monestary does not cause me asthmatic issues where some of the other incense is harder for me.

[Xpycoctomos]

Okay.. I'll bite.. because I have never come across a good reason for it yet. What were the reasons for instituting the New Calendar?

[xristos.anesti]

Okay.. I'll bite.. because I have never come across a good reason for it yet. What were the reasons for instituting the New Calendar?

Ecumenical Patriarch wanted to get closer to Anglicans in the 1920ties.

It didnt work out with them and we got stuck with it.

[Xpycoctomos]

Ecumenical Patriarch wanted to get closer to Anglicans in the 1920ties.

It didnt work out with them and we got stuck with it.

Yeah, I've heard something like that. Not sure how that was supposed to bring us closer to anyone. The calendar is not intrinsic to our Faith so I cannot imagine that the fact they celebrate Christmas on the 25th could have been any stumbling block towards reunion. Oh well. So it is. And Orthodoxy still stands firm.

John

[Petronius]

Ecumenical Patriarch wanted to get closer to Anglicans in the 1920ties.

It didnt work out with them and we got stuck with it.


I think there is a confusion here between these two notions: instituting and accepting/introducing into practice of the calendar.

The NSC was instituted in 1582.
See below a list when the NSC was introduced in different countries. (sorry, do not have enough posts to be entitled to post an image).
By informed that Great Britain introduced the NSC in 1752
and that generally Catholic areas introduced the NSC in or immediately after 1582, Protestant areas during the first half of the 18th century and Orthodox areas in Europe during the first quarter of the 20th century.
Some orthodox Churches are since no longer in symphony with their states.

[Emmanuel-A]

Holy Transfiguration Monastery (HOCNA), when it was part of ROCOR, did produce some good liturgical resources, such as a nice translation of the Psalter, which is own, but their history is problematic, so it's hard to purchase materials from them, for fear of supporting what is apparently a schismatic group, plagued with mulitple charges of sexual abuse and cult-like behavior. I cannot ignore the mass of information presented against them, such as can be found here: http://hocna.info (http://hocna.info/)

Basil

I understand your concern regarding the support of schismatic publishers.
But in my country, the canonic orthodox churches tremble at the idea of publishing anything that would make the almighty local catholic hierachy uneasy.
If I was able to read in my own longuage (french) authors such as Saint Photios, Justin Popovic, Nicolas Cabasilas just to name a few, it was thanks to the GOC publishers. They were also among the first that found that having services in french was vital and made a great work of services translation that a lot of canonic parishes (including mine) use today.
I in no way support the GOC schisms, but I and a lot of canonic orthodox people in my country know what we owe to some of these groups.