hard question ...one to think about

[holyshe]

heres a hypothetical question for all you christians out there?

now lets just say for a moment that devil worshipping takes over the world (99%) and all other religion was punishable by death

now if you were being persecuted for being a christian would you chose to publicly reject christ and convert to devil worshipping.. but on doing so would save all members of your family from being brutally raped and murdered including yourself
or would you not reject christ and christian teaching but would have to watch you family being raped and murdered after which the same would happen to you???

[gitlance]

What does it profit a man to gain the world, yet lose his soul?

[SeenAndUnseen]

Christ would not wish for my family, or for me, to be brutally raped or murdered -- and I am sure He would know I was still Christian, whether the enemies did or not.

[Father Rick]

You ask this as a hypothetical, but in some parts of the world right now this is the situation in which believers live.

[angelosKD]

What does it profit a man to gain the world, yet lose his soul?

exactly what I think, too

[Zacharias]

What does it profit a man to gain the world, yet lose his soul?
AMEN!

[AngCath]

If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me

I will do as Christ commands

[holyshe]

interesting answers i would not deny christ !

[TomUK]

interesting answers i would not deny christ !

The question is though, what does it mean to deny Christ? In a way i deny Christ every time i sin, but does that mean i am condemned to hell? Provided in my heart i didn't deny Christ then i would say that in this instance it may be acceptable to spare my family (and myself) from suffering.

[Zacharias]

Matthew 5:10
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (RSV)

[julian the apostate]

depends on the grace of God at that time

[SeenAndUnseen]

heres a hypothetical question for all you christians out there?

now lets just say for a moment that devil worshipping takes over the world (99%) and all other religion was punishable by death

now if you were being persecuted for being a christian would you chose to publicly reject christ and convert to devil worshipping.. but on doing so would save all members of your family from being brutally raped and murdered including yourself
or would you not reject christ and christian teaching but would have to watch you family being raped and murdered after which the same would happen to you???

Just think for a moment: there are a lot of people who publically proclaim Christ and call themselves Christian. Some of them are, but some of them are not. It works similarly in both directions. Just saying something does not make it so. If I said to a bunch of devil worshippers "Okay, okay! I deny Christ! I now worship Satan!" well....all the rituals and words in the book will not make that true. In order for it to be as black and white as this fictional situation aspires to, things would have to always be exactly what they seem to be -- and we all know that is not the case. My actions and words are not me, and neither can they be relied upon for all evidence as to my true intentions and whom I truly serve. They can function as signs of it, but they can also mislead.
If a married person is raped, is he or she an adulterer? All of the physical evidence is there isn't it? The sexual act, maybe even the perpetrator demanded the victim say "I love you and I renounce my spouse!" That does not make it true, but it might spare the victim further harm.
Righteousness, carrying the cross and following Jesus, suffering persecution and all the rest of it is highly subjective. One man's suffering is not another man's.

[svdbygrace]

What does it profit a man to gain the world, yet lose his soul?

:amen:

[trooper]

Before I had my kids, I would have answered really bravely. Now, I can only pray for the strength of Jesus to make me make the right decision - which is declare Christ and accept the repercussions.

Honestly, though, only God could give you strength to do such a thing; none of us has that bravery inherently.

[gitlance]

It seems to me that this is exactly what the early Christians faced against the Roman Empire. They were being told to deny Christ and worship the Emperor. How many of them actually did that? The vase majority, instead, refused to worship the Emperor and gave up their hopes, dreams, families, and lives to remain faithful to Christ.


32 ‘Everyone therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven; 33but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven.

34 ‘Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.
37Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.


It would probably be the hardest thing anyone could ever do, but if someone ever had to face it, I believe Christ would give them the strength to proclaim him.


I've often wondered what happened to Peter's family, for we know at the very least that he was married. Did he have kids? What happened to his wife, and possibly his children? We know that he was martyred. It must have been very difficult for him to make that decision, and yet he would rather lose his very life than deny Christ.

[PaladinValer]

**Leaps on the fire**

IC XC NIKA!

[Philip]

Might I suggest a review of the Seventh Chapter of the Second Book of the Maccabees?

[romaneagle13]

I would publicly pretend to renounce Christianity and keep my family alive (hopefully my family follows my lead on this one). We would remain Christians practicing in secret and I would hope that in time others who have done the same would join with us and by keeping an underground Christian group going, we may eventually prevail and turn things around and perhaps enough people would side with us and we could overrun the Devil worshippers and restore Christianity.

I know martyrdom sounds much more glorious, but I would take the harder road of trying to save the faith. If all the Christians are martyrs, then no one will be able to keep our religious beliefs and practices alive.

[SanctusEst]

I would pray for the Grace to accept the repercussions of remaining faithful to Christ. If I deny Christ, I have lost everything already. But...If I proclaim Him, though I may lose my family and life for the moment, I will get them and so much more when I stand before Christ on the day of Judgement.

And God will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more sorrow.

[Philip]

I would publicly pretend to renounce Christianity

If I may, I am not sure this is possible.

I know martyrdom sounds much more glorious,

I don't think it is about glory. Rather, it is about truth.

If all the Christians are martyrs, then no one will be able to keep our religious beliefs and practices alive.

But if you believe the Scriptures, you know that the Church can not be 'wiped out'.

[Simon_Templar]

"If you deny me before men, I will deny you before my Father and the angels of Heaven"

Its really not possible to answer a question like this simply because you never really know until you are in that position. I have alot of ideals in my mind that I am determined to live up to, should the occasion ever arise.. but you never really know if your resolve and strength will hold until you are actually tested.

[julian the apostate]

I would publicly pretend to renounce Christianity and keep my family alive (hopefully my family follows my lead on this one). We would remain Christians practicing in secret and I would hope that in time others who have done the same would join with us and by keeping an underground Christian group going, we may eventually prevail and turn things around and perhaps enough people would side with us and we could overrun the Devil worshippers and restore Christianity.

I know martyrdom sounds much more glorious, but I would take the harder road of trying to save the faith. If all the Christians are martyrs, then no one will be able to keep our religious beliefs and practices alive.


i believe the above has been the common practice amongst christians

very annoying op btw
cant quite put my finger on it,, but annoying

[gitlance]

Actually, it is thanks to the martyrs that the Faith has continued.

The Blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.

[julian the apostate]

no doubt

obviously it wasnt the majority,is all i was saying,
it wasnt even the majority of clergy and bishops

see donatist controversy

[pmcleanj]

very annoying op btw
cant quite put my finger on it,, but annoying
Perhaps it is this:

That in real life situations, choices are never black and white, and never reduce to a simple either/or. Some of us, when we find our choices artificially reduced in this way, find our creative response is being frustrated -- because what we hope we would do in such a situation is find a truly godly response; one that not only holds true to our calling, but also protects "Christ's little ones".

It is easy to see the morality in a choice like "would you renounce God, or sacrifice yourself". The assumption is that the same morality prevails in a choice like "would you renounce God, or sacrifice yourself and other innocents who would have no personal choice in the matter". And I am far from convinced that wilfully sacrificing other persons is a moral choice -- but as I say, I am also far from convinced that it is ever the only alternative.

Indeed, I would hope that if such a situation ever did arise, enough Christians would feel the creative need to find other options that they would seek and find that third alternative -- such as, perhaps, overthrowing the satanist in question and restoring compassionate, or at least neutral, forms of government.

[holyshe]

the whole point about my questions was to see evryones guts instincts on what they would or wouldn't do??? of course nothing is black and white(except a zebra crossing) lol but jokes aside the whole point about a hypothetical question is to respond from your heart and mind and not rationalise everything! of course one could argue but god would know i did it for the best and i didnt reject him in my heart of course one could say my childrens lives comes before what i am seen to believe but the questions is there taking all that complicated stuff out!
would you prefere to die and family die to stand up for jesus and god?

many people couldn't answer and wouldn't want to answer and some like those who have been martyrd before would prefere to suffer now to protect jesus and our lord god!

i know it is a tuff question that is exactly why i asked it!

god bless you all
xxx

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Might I point out a sentence in the OP that totally changes things?

but on doing so would save all members of your family from being brutally raped and murdered

It's not just you. If you choose martyrdom, you are choosing martyrdom for your whole family. Do you have the right to do that? And even if you do, is it the right decision to make?

When I look at the Backslideret (he was 1 three weeks ago) and I ask myself the question in the OP it's no-brainer. I'm not going to expose him to brutal death so that I can feel virtuous about my decision. I'll risk death and Hell first.

[Simon_Templar]

"anyone who does not hate his family for my sake is not worthy of me."

[masuwerte]

I voted for "don't know". I think if it was just me I might choose martyrdom, but I have a wife and baby to consider. Maybe I could plea bargain it down to just me? :) I liked pmcleanj's answer.

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

"anyone who does not hate his family for my sake is not worthy of me."

I'll file that under worthless proof texting, thank you very much.

[julian the apostate]

hey karl,,

at least it was short

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

True, but terribly out of context. I'm pretty sure that it's about prefering Him over family if our family wants or tempts us to renounce Christ either in word or deed - we are to say no to them. To extend it to mean that it's acceptable to let them be brutally murdered as the OP describes so that we can piously say we didn't even pretend to renounce Christ is an extension that needs more than simple quoting to substantiate.

[holyshe]

please can everyone vote before they make comments on this thread!
many thanks xxx

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Until I'd discussed it a bit on this thread, I wasn't sure whether I was 1. or 3.. I've now decided.

[holyshe]

thank you
xxx