Faith...

[seekingpurity047]

If we are saved by grace, then faith must be a work, right?

Randy

[Godzchild]

Yes belief is a work and it's the only work that is required...

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Paleoconservatarian]

No, faith is not a work... at least, faith is not our work. Faith is a gift. Ephesians 2:8-9.

I like the way the Belgic Confession explains it:

Article XXII - Our Justification Through Faith in Jesus Christ

We believe that, to attain the true knowledge of this great mystery, the Holy Spirit kindles in our hearts an upright faith, which embraces Jesus Christ with all His merits, appropriates Him, and seeks nothing more besides Him. For it must needs follow, either that all things which are requisite to our salvation are not in Jesus Christ, or if all things are in Him, that then those who possess Jesus Christ through faith have complete salvation in Him. Therefore, for any to assert that Christ is not sufficient, but that something more is required besides Him, would be too gross a blasphemy; for hence it would follow that Christ was but half a Savior.

Therefore we justly say with Paul, that we are justified by faith alone, or by faith apart from works. However, to speak more clearly, we do not mean that faith itself justifies us, for it is only an instrument with which we embrace Christ our righteousness. But Jesus Christ, imputing to us all His merits, and so many holy works which He has done for us and in our stead, is our righteousness. And faith is an instrument that keeps us in communion with Him in all His benefits, which, when they become ours, are more than sufficient to acquit us of our sins.

Salvation is not our reward for believing. What we believe (and know) is our salvation. A common misconception is that faith is something that we do, a formula we must complete before we may be accepted. But this would make faith a meritorious work, and no grace at all. Faith isn't something we do, but a resting upon what has already been done by Christ. It is not an effort or exercise of our own. And it is not because of faith, but by means of faith that we are justified.

[seekingpurity047]

So, faith is the work of God, and he gives it to us freely, when He changes our hearts to love Him. I understand now. Thank you very much!

Randy

[jonas3]

So, faith is the work of God, and he gives it to us freely, when He changes our hearts to love Him. I understand now. Thank you very much!

Randy

Yes, faith is absolutely given to a person by God upon regeneration, and the faith that a regenerate person confesses is a belief in the Gospel, which is the belief that Jesus Christ has secured salvation for His people alone through His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. Faith believes that Jesus Christ met all the conditions for salvation; and therefore, faith by definition cannot be a prerequisite for salvation. Those who say that faith is a prerequisite for salvation do not believe that the salvific work of Christ was finished on the cross; therefore, they do not believe the true gospel, but another gospel, which is accursed.

This is why ALL people who believe in universal atonement are presently lost (i.e. unregenerate) (2Cor 4:3), because they do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone that has meant the conditions for salvation, but that it is the "faith" of the sinner that is required of a person before He is saved (i.e. regenerated). Universal atonement advocates say that only if a man chooses to accept what Christ did for everyone without exception will Christ's sacrifice become effective towards him. That is a damnable false gospel. Jesus Christ is, "...the author and finisher of our faith..." - Heb 12:2, and Jesus Christ laid down His life for His sheep (Jn 10:15), and He gives unto THEM eternal life (Jn 10:28).

-jonas3

[Cajun Huguenot]

Yes, faith is absolutely given to a person by God upon regeneration, and the faith that a regenerate person confesses is a belief in the Gospel, which is the belief that Jesus Christ has secured salvation for His people alone through His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. Faith believes that Jesus Christ met all the conditions for salvation; and therefore, faith by definition cannot be a prerequisite for salvation. Those who say that faith is a prerequisite for salvation do not believe that the salvific work of Christ was finished on the cross; therefore, they do not believe the true gospel, but another gospel, which is accursed.

This is why ALL people who believe in universal atonement are presently lost (i.e. unregenerate) (2Cor 4:3), because they do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone that has meant the conditions for salvation, but that it is the "faith" of the sinner that is required of a person before He is saved (i.e. regenerated). Universal atonement advocates say that only if a man chooses to accept what Christ did for everyone without exception will Christ's sacrifice become effective towards him. That is a damnable false gospel. Jesus Christ is, "...the author and finisher of our faith..." - Heb 12:2, and Jesus Christ laid down His life for His sheep (Jn 10:15), and He gives unto THEM eternal life (Jn 10:28).

-jonas3

Hello Jonas,

I agree with you that Arminianism is a grave error, but you seem to believe that one must understand the finer theological teachings of Scripture to be saved. I think that too is a grave error. It makes theological understanding necessary for salvation. I was saved by the Lord and knew Christ for many years before I ever heard of such things about God's sovereignty in salvation. By God's grace, my eyes were opened and I have come to love these truths very much. Salvation is by grace and is a work of the Holy Spirit. It is not dependent on the theological acumen of the one being saved.

God saves the ignorant as well as the learned and all Christians hold to some false ideas about God and the Bible. Thankfully our God is a great and gracious God.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

[Cajun Huguenot]

If we are saved by grace, then faith must be a work, right?

Randy

We are saved by the grace of God. We must have a true and active faith, but even that faith that we have is a gift from God. We do actively believe and trust in Christ, but it is God's Spirit working in us both to will and do his good pleasure.

All that we have is of grace even the faith that we have in Christ.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

[Jon_]

Hello Jonas,

I agree with you that Arminianism is a grave error, but you seem to believe that one must understand the finer theological teachings of Scripture to be saved. I think that too is a grave error. It makes theological understanding necessary for salvation. I was saved by the Lord and knew Christ for many years before I ever heard of such things about God's sovereignty in salvation. By God's grace, my eyes were opened and I have come to love these truths very much. Salvation is by grace and is a work of the Holy Spirit. It is not dependent on the theological acumen of the one being saved.

God saves the ignorant as well as the learned and all Christians hold to some false ideas about God and the Bible. Thankfully our God is a great and gracious God.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith
I guess the topic really begs the question, "What is salvific faith?" (i.e., the fertile soil, as compared to the seed that falls on the path, among the thorns, or on the rocks).

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[jonas3]

I agree with you that Arminianism is a grave error, but you seem to believe that one must understand the finer theological teachings of Scripture to be saved.

The atonement is not a "finer theological" teaching. The atonement is the very heart of the gospel; it is the very core of Christianity. All regenerated people (i.e. Christians) have a proper understanding of the PERSON and WORK of Jesus Christ (1Jn 5:20). The PERSON of Jesus Christ is that He is the God-man mediator, and the WORK of Jesus Christ is that He came and died to redeem His people alone through His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. An “Arminian” believes that his “christ” came and died for all men without exception (including those who end up in hell); thereby, making the sacrifice of Christ to be a weak, meaningless, ineffectual, purposeless work that only makes it possible for an individual to be saved based on their "faith". What is the difference between someone who is saved and someone who is not saved under their view? It is conditional work of the sinner, and not the work of Christ. They glory in man, and not in the grace of God. They are ignorant of the righteousness of Christ revealed in the Scriptures, and they are going about to establish their own righteousness. True faith, which is received upon regeneration, believes that Jesus Christ met all the conditions for salvation and gives all the glory to God.


I think that too is a grave error. It makes theological understanding necessary for salvation.

I never said or implied that anything was necessary for salvation. In fact, my entire point was to declare that true faith believes that NOTHING is required for salvation; therefore, faith by definition cannot be a prerequisite for salvation. No one is saved by their, "theological understanding"; however, those who are saved absolutely believe and understand the gospel, as it is written, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost" – 2Cor 4:3. Those who are lost do not believe the gospel. There are certain things that all regenerate Christians believe. Your accusation is false and hypocritical. Would you say that a person can be saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing that Jesus is not God? If you are consistent, you would have to yes, if you are a hypocrite, you will say no. Now, is believing that Jesus is God necessary for salvation? No. However, do all regenerate people (i.e. Christians) believe that Jesus is God? Yes. Do you see the difference? There is a knowledge that is given to an individual upon regeneration by the Holy Spirit. The knowledge of the gospel (i.e. which includes the atonement!) is apart of this knowledge. As it is written, "For I [the apostle Paul] delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" – 1Cor 15:3. Universal atonement is not how Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.

I was saved by the Lord and knew Christ for many years before I ever heard of such things about God's sovereignty in salvation. By God's grace, my eyes were opened and I have come to love these truths very much. Salvation is by grace and is a work of the Holy Spirit. It is not dependent on the theological acumen of the one being saved.

Of course salvation is not, "dependent on the theological acumen of the one being saved"! If I believed that, then I would believe in conditional salvation! Before a person is regenerate they can believe that Bugs Bunny is god; however, upon regeneration, they are given a proper understanding of the PERSON and WORK of Jesus Christ. They will no longer believe that Bugs Bunny is god, but rather they will believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, does the fact that they now believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ mean that their salvation was dependent on them first having believed this truth? No, regeneration precedes faith, and that was my entire point.

God saves the ignorant as well as the learned and all Christians hold to some false ideas about God and the Bible. Thankfully our God is a great and gracious God.

Wait-a-minute, God saves the ignorant every time. Everyone before they are saved is absolutely IGNORANT of the gospel. The truth of the total depravity of man affirms this. Also, you’re wrong in saying that some will still hold to "false ideas about God" after they are saved (i.e. regenerate). Could you give me an example of some "false ideas about God" that a regenerate person might believe?

-jonas

[Jon_]

The atonement is not a "finer theological" teaching. The atonement is the very heart of the gospel; it is the very core of Christianity. All regenerated people (i.e. Christians) have a proper understanding of the PERSON and WORK of Jesus Christ (1Jn 5:20). The PERSON of Jesus Christ is that He is the God-man mediator, and the WORK of Jesus Christ is that He came and died to redeem His people alone through His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. An “Arminian” believes that his “christ” came and died for all men without exception (including those who end up in hell); thereby, making the sacrifice of Christ to be a weak, meaningless, ineffectual, purposeless work that only makes it possible for an individual to be saved based on their "faith". What is the difference between someone who is saved and someone who is not saved under their view? It is conditional work of the sinner, and not the work of Christ. They glory in man, and not in the grace of God. They are ignorant of the righteousness of Christ revealed in the Scriptures, and they are going about to establish their own righteousness. True faith, which is received upon regeneration, believes that Jesus Christ met all the conditions for salvation and gives all the glory to God.
This all seems consistent with the Scripture to me:
(John 7:17, 18 AV) If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. 18) He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hello Jonas,

Thanks for your reply. It seems that we either misunderstand one another, or we have a serious disagreement. I am not yet sure which one it is, but I think it is likely the later.

Let me write a thing or two to see whether we are on the same page or not. Then you can tell me.

When Paul wrote is epistle to the Church at Rome he was writing to born again People who had heard and received the Gospel. I think we can all agree on that point even without looking at how Paul addresses them, but let’s look at what he says just to be sure.

He says of the Roman Church that “Ye also the called of Jesus Christ” that they are “beloved of God” and “called to be saints.” We could look at other items, but from what Paul’s says of them here in Romans one it is clear that they have heard, and received the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

They have heard and received the Gospel. (Right?)

Now let’s leap forward to Paul’s great section on God’s sovereignty and predestination in Romans chapter 9. If I am understanding you correctly (I hope I am mistaken) then when Paul tells these Roman Christians, who have heard and received the Gospel of Jesus Christ, about God’s predestination and sovereignty in the lives of Esau, Jacob and Pharaoh their response should be a hearty “Amen. Preach it Brother Paul.”

But that is not what they say. Instead Paul knows that these Roman Christians ,who have heard the Gospel and have been baptized into Christ and are a part of the Bride of our Lord, are going to object to what Paul has to say.

Look at what Paul says will be their reaction to this portion of God’s sovereignty in the salvation of sinners. Here is how he expects them to respond to what he has just written “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?”

Humm!!. Paul expects the Roman Christians, who have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which is the ONLY true Gospel) to respond VERY negatively to what he says about God’s sovereignty in His Salvation of and His rejection of sinners. Paul thinks that these Gospel believing Christians will be disturbed by what he is teaching on this subject.

In fact, Paul rebukes them for the response that he knows they are going to have on this subject. Here is his rebuke to the Gospel believing Christians at Rome. Paul says “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

If the Christians at Rome had received the Gospel (which they certainly had) and trusted in Christ alone for salvation (which they had also done) could react in disbelief to Paul’s teaching on this subject, don’t you think it is possible today for Christians who have heard and received the Gospel of Christ to still shrink from these things and lack knowledge and understanding of them? They did so in Rome, why can it not be so now?

I heard the Gospel and trusted in Christ for more than a dozen years before I ever heard any thing close to the doctrines of Grace. (i.e. God’s election and predestination). I responded the way Paul expected the Romans to respond. Thankfully I had a bro-in-law who was kind, gentle and patient with me and discussed these things with me for two full years before I embraced them as my own.

I knew Christ and loved Him and His Church long before I heard of these things and I shrunk in horror from them. When our brothers are in error on this subject, we need to do as do as Paul told Timothy. We need to “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine”

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

[Cajun Huguenot]

Ps. I agree that Christ atoning work is the heart of the Gospel. I don't think one has to understand God's sovereignty in our coming to Christ to come to christ. The two things are not even remotely similar. God Sovereignly called me to Himself and I did not understand the how of it for better than a decade, yet I knew Christ all that time.

[Jon_]

Here's a good, balanced view of the subject at hand.

http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/Articles/ArminiansUnsaved_f.htm

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Cajun Huguenot]

[QUOTE=Jon_]Here's a good, balanced view of the subject at hand.

http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/Articles/ArminiansUnsaved_f.htm

Soli Deo Gloria



I read a good bit of the beginning and some in the middle and then the conclusion. What I read was very good, especially the conclusion. To think that one must be a Calvinist to be saved is a part of hyper-Calvinism and not not part of true Calvinism, nor is it biblical. Hyper-Calvinism is a bad thing and has done a WHOLE LOT of damage over the years.

In Christ,
Kenith

[jonas3]

Thanks for your reply. It seems that we either misunderstand one another, or we have a serious disagreement. I am not yet sure which one it is, but I think it is likely the later.

For starters, if you cannot state that you are in full agreement with my previous post, then I can conclude from this that we have a serious disagreement. Furthermore, having read your current post, I can affirm that we have a serious disagreement.


Let me write a thing or two to see whether we are on the same page or not. Then you can tell me.

When Paul wrote is epistle to the Church at Rome he was writing to born again People who had heard and received the Gospel. I think we can all agree on that point even without looking at how Paul addresses them, but let’s look at what he says just to be sure.

He says of the Roman Church that “Ye also the called of Jesus Christ” that they are “beloved of God” and “called to be saints.” We could look at other items, but from what Paul’s says of them here in Romans one it is clear that they have heard, and received the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


They have heard and received the Gospel. (Right?)

True Christians (i.e. regenerated individuals) are the ONLY ones who have received the knowledge of the gospel; everyone else is ignorant of the gospel (Mk 16:16, Ro 10:2-4, Ro 11:7, 2Cor 4:3, etc). The fact that Paul addresses his epistle to born-again believers and that they have received the gospel is obvious since ONLY born-again believers have received the Gospel.

Now let’s leap forward to Paul’s great section on God’s sovereignty and predestination in Romans chapter 9. If I am understanding you correctly (I hope I am mistaken) then when Paul tells these Roman Christians, who have heard and received the Gospel of Jesus Christ, about God’s predestination and sovereignty in the lives of Esau, Jacob and Pharaoh their response should be a hearty “Amen. Preach it Brother Paul.”


But that is not what they say. Instead Paul knows that these Roman Christians ,who have heard the Gospel and have been baptized into Christ and are a part of the Bride of our Lord, are going to object to what Paul has to say.

Look at what Paul says will be their reaction to this portion of God’s sovereignty in the salvation of sinners. Here is how he expects them to respond to what he has just written “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?”

Humm!!. Paul expects the Roman Christians, who have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which is the ONLY true Gospel) to respond VERY negatively to what he says about God’s sovereignty in His Salvation of and His rejection of sinners. Paul thinks that these Gospel believing Christians will be disturbed by what he is teaching on this subject.

The apostle Paul is not suggesting in ANYWAY that Christians (i.e. those who are regenerate) would respond by rejecting the sovereignty of God. He is speaking after the manner of men and illustrating exactly how the unregenerate would respond! Do you think he is trying to be approved of men, or God, or do you think he seeks to please men? A Christian would NEVER reply against God and say, “Why does He yet find fault”! This is the sign of an unregenerate person, and not something that the apostle Paul would hear from the “beloved of God”, “called to be Saints”.

In fact, Paul rebukes them for the response that he knows they are going to have on this subject. Here is his rebuke to the Gospel believing Christians at Rome. Paul says “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

Indeed, Paul rebukes the unregenerate reprobates who say that God is not sovereign or that God does not show mercy or wrath to whom He chooses to show mercy or wrath, etc.

If the Christians at Rome had received the Gospel (which they certainly had) and trusted in Christ alone for salvation (which they had also done) could react in disbelief to Paul’s teaching on this subject, don’t you think it is possible today for Christians who have heard and received the Gospel of Christ to still shrink from these things and lack knowledge and understanding of them? They did so in Rome, why can it not be so now?

No, those who, “trusted in Christ alone for salvation” through regeneration could not and would not have respond in disbelief to Paul’s teaching on this subject.

I heard the Gospel and trusted in Christ for more than a dozen years before I ever heard any thing close to the doctrines of Grace. (i.e. God’s election and predestination). I responded the way Paul expected the Romans to respond. Thankfully I had a bro-in-law who was kind, gentle and patient with me and discussed these things with me for two full years before I embraced them as my own.

So what you are suggesting is that those who have been regenerated and given the knowledge of the gospel of Christ can still “shrink” from the truth and respond negatively to the gospel of Christ? Even though they have been given the knowledge of the gospel of Christ upon regeneration they may still actually hate the gospel of Christ?

Christians (i.e. regenerated individuals) detest their former false profession of “Christianity”. They hate the false gospel that they once believed in. They do not look back on their life and say that they were just a little “unlearned”, or not “mature”. They hate the false gospel that they once professed, and they count their former life as “dead works” (Heb 6:1) and “dung” (Php 3:7-9). How then, could they say that they were regenerated when they believe in such blasphemy?

I knew Christ and loved Him and His Church long before I heard of these things and I shrunk in horror from them. When our brothers are in error on this subject, we need to do as do as Paul told Timothy. We need to “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine”

So you loved Christ and His Church, which stands upon God’s election and sovereignty, yet you, “shrunk in horror” from the message of God’s sovereignty? How can you say that you formerly loved Christ and His Church if you hated both Him and His Church?

I had asked you in my previous post if you could give me an example of some false beliefs about God that a regenerate person might confess. Obviously, you would say that one of these beliefs is in relation to God’s sovereignty. So you believe that a regenerate person can profess that God is not sovereign and yet believe the gospel? How can this be, since true faith believes and confesses that salvation rest entirely upon the sovereignty of God through grace?

Here is where your notions logically end. If someone doesn’t believe that God is sovereign, then they must believe that God is not sovereign, and if they believe that God is not sovereign, then they must believe in free-will, and if they believe in free-will, then they must believe that they choose to have faith in Christ for salvation, and if they believe that they choose to have faith in Christ for salvation, then they must believe that Christ died for all men without exception, and if they believe that Christ died for all men without exception, then they must believe that it is not the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ towards His people alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, and if they believe that it is not the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ towards His people alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, then have believed upon “another Jesus” and “another gospel”; therefore, they are unregenerate and currently polluted with a hatred of the true and living God of heaven.


A couple final questions,

1. Do you currently believe that you were regenerate when you believed that God is not sovereign?

2. Would you say that a person can be saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing that Jesus is not God?

-jonas

[Cajun Huguenot]

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A couple final questions,

1. Do you currently believe that you were regenerate when you believed that God is not sovereign?

2. Would you say that a person can be saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing that Jesus is not God?

-jonas

Hello Jonas,

Yes we are. What you express is not historic Calvinism. I have greatly rejoiced at coming to the truth of God’s absolute sovereignty. My knowledge and understanding increased dramatically with that understanding.


Yes there was a time when I did not understand the absolute sovereignty of God and yes even lacking that understanding I knew that I was saved because I trusted in Christ alone for my salvation.


It is obvious that we understand Paul in Romans 9 very differently. I believe it is as it appears. Paul is writing to believers he tells them what he does in Romans 9 and then he says to the same believers “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will.” The “Thou” is the same people that he addresses in Romans 1 when he says. “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” That is whom the letter is written to. It is not written to unbelievers. The “Thou” here and “all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints” are the exact same people.


You have to force (eisegete) your views onto the text to get what you get from it. What I say is the natural flow of the book of Romans.


From what I have read of you so far, I think you present a fine example of what has historically been called hyper-Calvinism. I find such teaching to be unbiblical and destructive to the witness of the Church of Jesus Christ.


If you like you can read what my take is on Romans 9 here (http://www.christianforums.com/t1172416-romans-914-20.html). Here you can read how I believe my Grandfather was saved (http://www.christianforums.com/t1561967-pa-pa-becnel-salvation-and-theology.html).


I am sure we will get to know each other better as time goes on. I also hope others (Reformed/Calvinists) here will read our separate posts and let us know their thoughts as well.


Have a good day.


Coram Deo,
Kenith

[jonas3]

Hello Jonas,

Yes we are. What you express is not historic Calvinism. I have greatly rejoiced at coming to the truth of God’s absolute sovereignty. My knowledge and understanding increased dramatically with that understanding.


Yes there was a time when I did not understand the absolute sovereignty of God and yes even lacking that understanding I knew that I was saved because I trusted in Christ alone for my salvation.


It is obvious that we understand Paul in Romans 9 very differently. I believe it is as it appears. Paul is writing to believers he tells them what he does in Romans 9 and then he says to the same believers “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will.” The “Thou” is the same people that he addresses in Romans 1 when he says. “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” That is whom the letter is written to. It is not written to unbelievers. The “Thou” here and “all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints” are the exact same people.


You have to force (eisegete) your views onto the text to get what you get from it. What I say is the natural flow of the book of Romans.


From what I have read of you so far, I think you present a fine example of what has historically been called hyper-Calvinism. I find such teaching to be unbiblical and destructive to the witness of the Church of Jesus Christ.


If you like you can read what my take is on Romans 9 here (http://www.christianforums.com/t1172416-romans-914-20.html). Here you can read how I believe my Grandfather was saved (http://www.christianforums.com/t1561967-pa-pa-becnel-salvation-and-theology.html).


I am sure we will get to know each other better as time goes on. I also hope others (Reformed/Calvinists) here we read our separate posts and let us know their thoughts as well.


Have a good day.


Coram Deo,
Kenith

Since you affirm by your previous comments, the comments above, and your writings in the links that you posted, that you believe that a regenerate person can believe in an false idol-god who cannot save (Isa 45:20), and that a regenerate person can believe in "another Jesus" and "another gospel"; thereby, calling Jesus Christ a liar when He said,

Mt 7:17-20, (KJV)
"17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

I must tell you, for the sake of your soul, that you are an unregenerate false professor of Christianity. I say this out of love, and not hatred. This "christ" that you believe in is a false idol god who cannot save; and therefore, you remain dead in your sins. I am not saying that you are doomed for hell, since the sovereign God of the universe may cause you to repent and believe the gospel; however, what I am saying is that you are currently unregenerate, and will remain so unless God causes you to be otherwise.

I am sure that we will get to know each other better; however, not as brethren, save God regenerates you and gives you a belief of the truth.

-jonas

PS: Look at the beginning of Romans 9 to see who Paul is talking about... Also, take a look at what Paul said in Romans 9:2. Also, I encourage you to read the entire chapter.

[Cajun Huguenot]

I must tell you, for the sake of your soul, that you are an unregenerate false professor of Christianity. I say this out of love, and not hatred. This "christ" that you believe in is a false idol god who cannot save; and therefore, you remain dead in your sins. I am not saying that you are doomed for hell, since the sovereign God of the universe may cause you to repent and believe the gospel; however, what I am saying is that you are currently unregenerate, and will remain so unless God causes you to be otherwise.

I am sure that we will get to know each other better; however, not as brethren, save God regenerates you and gives you a belief of the truth.

-jonas

PS: Look at the beginning of Romans 9 to see who Paul is talking about... Also, take a look at what Paul said in Romans 9:2. Also, I encourage you to read the entire chapter.

Jonas,

Like I said, and you confirm, you are a hyper-Calvinists, but unlike you, I am unable to see into hearts so God knows whether you know Christ or not. I've read the book of Romans countless times so I will not bother to do so at this moment, but I am sure I will read it all again in the near future.

I will let others judge as to which of us has more closely presented the truth here. I think you present a gross distortion of the Doctrines of Grace.

I stand in Christ washed in His blood my faith is secure in Him. You may believe as you will.

Again I wish you a good day.

Deo Vindice,
Kenith

Ps you may want to look up WordOfFaithEvangelist. Y'all are worlds apart theologically, but you both have the same spirit.

[jonas3]

I am unable to see into hearts so God knows whether you know Christ or not.

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." - Lk 6:45

you may want to look up WordOfFaithEvangelist. Y'all are worlds apart theologically, but you both have the same spirit.

"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" - Gal 4:16

You judge me to have an antichrist spirit, but on what basis do you make your "righteous judgement" (Jn 7:24)? I have told you how I made mine. You do not believe the gospel. Do you judge by a different standard?

-jonas

[Cajun Huguenot]

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." - Lk 6:45-

"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" - Gal 4:16

You judge me to have an antichrist spirit, but on what basis do you make your "righteous judgement" (Jn 7:24)? I have told you how I made mine. You do not believe the gospel. Do you judge by a different standard?

-jonas

Jonas,

We will let others see and decide who speaks the truth on this matter. I am certain I am in line with God's Holy Word and you teach a distortion. You think the same of me.

By your standard (not Scripture) there are likely very few, if any, other true Christians on this forum.

I will let the brethren here (I do believe these folk are my brothers and sisters in Christ) decide who speaks the truth.

I pray you find the truth and chunk your hyper-Calvinism. I don't think there is any more I can say to you on this thread.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

[Jon_]

Uhhh. Did what I think just happened just happened? Did he call you "unregenerate"? Those of us who have borne witness to your fruit know better than that, Kenith.

I agree with the article that I posted in that those who believe "their" faith is consequential to salvation and that their faith is of their own doing, they are the ones who are in danger of hellfire. Actually, I read another article by Vincent Cheung that is pretty level-headed on this issue (instead of his usual flame-throwing). It is applied to Biblical inerrancy, instead, but I think that all the principles are pretty much the same.

http://www.vincentcheung.com/2005/09/06/biblical-inerrancy-not-optional/

In any case, I think jonas went way overboard here. It is one thing to stand against true semi-Pelagians as the heretics they are, but something completely different to claim Reformed brethren are unregenerate because of their views on the matter.

I do struggle with the issue of those who stubbornly reject the doctrines of grace, though. I really do. I have many dear family members who do just that, but the overwhelming presence of fruit in their lives leads me to believe otherwise, unless that fruit is undetectably rotten.

I simply resign that the state of the souls of any man but myself are ever hidden from me and for that I praise God for his sovereign will. I can do no other.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[jonas3]

In any case, I think jonas went way overboard here. It is one thing to stand against true semi-Pelagians as the heretics they are, but something completely different to claim Reformed brethren are unregenerate because of their views on the matter.

1. All who believe a false gospel are not saved.
2. Arminianism is a false gospel.
3. Therefore, all who believe Arminianism are not saved.

Do you believe in point #1 and #2?

I do struggle with the issue of those who stubbornly reject the doctrines of grace, though. I really do. I have many dear family members who do just that, but the overwhelming presence of fruit in their lives leads me to believe otherwise, unless that fruit is undetectably rotten.

What is this "fruit in their lives"? Is it there "wonderful works"? The Bible calls the "good works" of the unregenerate "dead works" (Heb 9:14), and "fruit unto death" (Ro 7:5).

I simply resign that the state of the souls of any man but myself are ever hidden from me and for that I praise God for his sovereign will. I can do no other.

Jon_, if you would could you take a look at these Scripture verses below and answer the simple questions that I have asked following each verse reference in your next post.

Romans 16:17-18
"17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

Question: Who are Christians to avoid?

2 Corinthians 6:14-17
"14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

Question: Who are Christians not to be unequally yoked together with?

Question: Who are Christians commanded to be separate from?

Ephesians 5:7-12
"7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret."

Question: Who are Christians not to be partakers with?

Question: Who are Christians to have no fellowship with?

2 John 1:10-11
"10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

Question: Who are Christians not to receive into their house?


Final Question: How can you separate yourself from unbelievers if you don't judge someone to be an unbeliever?

Christians are not to judge the eternal state of an individual (i.e. judge one to be going to hell); however, they are commanded to judge all things (1Cor 2:15), and they are commanded to judge someone to be a Christian or not depending on that persons doctrine (i.e. belief in the true gospel of Jesus Christ). The gospel is the means by which Christians are to judge other people, judging by any other standard is wicked.

-jonas

[Imblessed]

Nice post Jon.

I can totally see where you are coming from.

I'm fairly new to the teachings of the Doctrines of Grace, but the longer I am "here", the harder it is to understand those who are "there"!

[Cajun Huguenot]

Uhhh. Did what I think just happened just happened? Did he call you "unregenerate"? Those of us who have borne witness to your fruit know better than that, Kenith.

I agree with the article that I posted in that those who believe "their" faith is consequential to salvation and that their faith is of their own doing, they are the ones who are in danger of hellfire. Actually, I read another article by Vincent Cheung that is pretty level-headed on this issue (instead of his usual flame-throwing). It is applied to Biblical inerrancy, instead, but I think that all the principles are pretty much the same.

http://www.vincentcheung.com/2005/09/06/biblical-inerrancy-not-optional/

In any case, I think jonas went way overboard here. It is one thing to stand against true semi-Pelagians as the heretics they are, but something completely different to claim Reformed brethren are unregenerate because of their views on the matter.

I do struggle with the issue of those who stubbornly reject the doctrines of grace, though. I really do. I have many dear family members who do just that, but the overwhelming presence of fruit in their lives leads me to believe otherwise, unless that fruit is undetectably rotten.

I simply resign that the state of the souls of any man but myself are ever hidden from me and for that I praise God for his sovereign will. I can do no other.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Hello Jon,



Thanks for your kind note. I have a good friend, he was Pentecostal (Four Square), and he and I discussed the Doctrines of Grace for six years. Still he could not see it, then my job changed and I had to go off for some training. When I came back after a number of months he had the whole package. It was awesome to see.



There are things that clearly, if they are denied, take you outside the Christian faith. I believe many semi-Pelagians are lost, but there are countless other people who have heard nothing but Arminianism. All the Christian fruit is there, they trust totally in the finished work of Christ for their salvation, but these doctrines are alien to all that they have been taught. And they find it shocking like the folks in Rome.



When I was confronted with Calvinism I knew nothing about it except that is was a bad thing. I met my first Calvinist when I was 23. I am unusual (like most Calvinists) when confronted with something alien; (time allowing) I go after it and try to understand all that I can from all sides.



I was confronted with these ideas at 23/24 years of age and I had time to look at it closely and carefully. The journey took me two full years. To grasp these truths is awesome. Our understanding of God's sovereignty is so important. By God’s grace I have seen many Christian friends also come into these great truths. Some have done so quickly while others have taken up to six years. I counted all these folk as brethren before they understood these doctrines. Their lives should forth the fruit of Salvation and they still do.



I think Jonas is out of line, but there are lots of folks like him and the other fellow I mentioned earlier. He, like the Arminians, will only come to these truths if the Lord reveals them to him by His Spirit, through His Word.



I depend on the Vindication of Christ in these matters. Deo vindice is my motto when confronted by someone like Jonas.



Thanks again.

Dominus vobiscum,

Kenith

[jonas3]

I think Jonas is out of line, but there are lots of folks like him and the other fellow I mentioned earlier. He, like the Arminians, will only come to these truths if the Lord reveals them to him by His Spirit, through His Word.

Amazingly you call me an Arminian, and one who needs the truth of the Lord revealed to him by His Spirit. You just called me unregenerate, but you hypocritically judge me to be unregenerate because I judged you to be lost based on your lack of knowledge regarding the true gospel.

Let's see, Cajun would judge a person who believes that God isn't sovereign to have a knowledge of the gospel, but he would judge someone like me not to have a knowledge of the gospel? Now what does that say about Cajun's knowledge of the gospel?

Please provide something that I said to prove my lostness? Give me one statement?

-jonas

[Cajun Huguenot]

Jonas,

Is R.C. Sproul a Christian?

What about Spurgeon? Is he in hell?

Is John Piper a Christian?

Are there any Christian Pastors in the PCA?

Just curious.

In Christ,
Kenith

[jonas3]

Jonas,

Is R.C. Sproul a Christian?

What about Spurgeon? Is he in hell?

Is John Piper a Christian?

Are there any Christian Pastors in the PCA?

Just curious.

In Christ,
Kenith

Cajun, perhaps you could answer at least one of my questions. Come on, humor me.

-jonas.

[Cajun Huguenot]

Please provide something that I said to prove my lostness? Give me one statement?

-jonas

I never said you were lost. I can not see your heart and I do not know your works. If you tell me know Christ then I accept that as so untill you reveal otherwise.

I did say that you lack knowledge and understanding about the Christian faith, but that does not equal being unregenerate. You jomp to lots of conclusion.

I hope you continue these posts, because I think we are getting to know you pretty well. You are not very warm and fuzzy are you?;)

Deo Vindice,
Kenith

[Cajun Huguenot]

Cajun, perhaps you could answer at least one of my questions. Come on, humor me.

-jonas.

I answered your early questions and you decided that I am lost. So since I have answered the most important of your questions why dont you give a simple yes or no on the ones above. You can see into my heart so how about the men I mention?

Deo vindice,
Kenith

[Cajun Huguenot]

Cajun, perhaps you could answer at least one of my questions. Come on, humor me.

-jonas.

I hope no one got hit by that dodge Jonas is driving.:D :P

Kenith

[Jon_]

1. All who believe a false gospel are not saved.
2. Arminianism is a false gospel.
3. Therefore, all who believe Arminianism are not saved.

Do you believe in point #1 and #2?
Yes. I cannot rightly say that I do not. If the charge of heresy be rightly leveled at those who deny the deity of Christ, those who deny his redemptive atonement must likewise be anathema.

What is this "fruit in their lives"? Is it there "wonderful works"? The Bible calls the "good works" of the unregenerate "dead works" (Heb 9:14), and "fruit unto death" (Ro 7:5).
That is my struggle, though. How can I rightly judge if they are truly unregenerate? I do affirm that God does use the reprobate for his own ends despite theirs. God is completely sovereign, which I praise and thank him for daily. I praise him that all things are by his will and none by mine.


Romans 16:17-18
"17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

Question: Who are Christians to avoid?
Indeed. Those who proclaim false doctrine.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17
"14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

Question: Who are Christians not to be unequally yoked together with?

Question: Who are Christians commanded to be separate from?
The answer to the first is unbelievers (v. 14). The answer to the second is these same. These I understand and uphold.

Ephesians 5:7-12
"7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret."

Question: Who are Christians not to be partakers with?

Question: Who are Christians to have no fellowship with?
It would seem according to the context (vv. 3-6) that this passage refers to unrepentant sinners, thereby indicating the unregenerate, which are unbelievers. Them we should neither partake nor hold fellowship with.

2 John 1:10-11
"10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

Question: Who are Christians not to receive into their house?
Them who do not abide in the "doctrine of Christ," which I take as analogous to those who teach a false gospel (vv. 7, 9).

Final Question: How can you separate yourself from unbelievers if you don't judge someone to be an unbeliever?
Him who professes remission of sins through the blood of Christ and faith in the same unto salvation I consider to be a man of God. With those who refuse Christ as Lord and Savior I have no fellowship.

Christians are not to judge the eternal state of an individual (i.e. judge one to be going to hell); however, they are commanded to judge all things (1Cor 2:15), and they are commanded to judge someone to be a Christian or not depending on that persons doctrine (i.e. belief in the true gospel of Jesus Christ). The gospel is the means by which Christians are to judge other people, judging by any other standard is wicked.
Indeed...

Thank you for your encouragement. I see that I must prayerfully and scripturally consider these things in greater depth. The necessary consequences of my adherence to the whole of what you put forth is the declaration that three retired ordained pastors on my mom's side and nearly all their kin (a handful uphold the doctrines of grace) are accursed of God for faith in a false gospel. Furthermore, the Bible says that I am to set them apart and not have fellowship with them anymore, which means that I will no longer visit them for any reason but to evangelize them.

This kind of division is indeed biblical (Luke 12:51-53), but I hope you'll forgive me if I do not immediately grasp this but pause to consider all the relavent Scriptures and to engage in prayer in this.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[jonas3]

That is all I ask, that these things be considered.

Yes. I cannot rightly say that I do not. If the charge of heresy be rightly leveled at those who deny the deity of Christ, those who deny his redemptive atonement must likewise be anathema.

Good, you recognize that the atonement is essential to the gospel, rather it is the central message OF the gospel!

That is my struggle, though. How can I rightly judge if they are truly unregenerate? I do affirm that God does use the reprobate for his own ends despite theirs.

Christians are to judge based on one's belief in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. It is written, "3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." - 2Cor 4:3-4. However, a man may say that he believes in the true gospel, but contradict this belief through other heretical notions, such as the idea that he or she was regenerate while he or she believed in a false gospel, or the idea that someone else who believes in a false gopsel (i.e. an Arminian, etc) is or could be regenerate. They bring "another gospel" because they suggest that two totally different gospels are actually acceptable in the eyes of the Lord, which is blasphemy. Furthermore, they would be ones who embraced those who, "abideth not in the doctrine of Christ"; therefore, they, "hath not God", and they would be, "partaker of his evil deeds" (1Jn 9-11). I am only saying that those who profess a false gopsel are currently lost (i.e. unregenerate).

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - Jn 3:18

"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." - Ro 1:16

"2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." - Ro 10:2-4

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." - 1Cor 1:18

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." - Gal 1:8

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" - 2Th 1:8

Etc, etc.

Also, in response to your statement that God uses the reprobate for His own ends, I would like to be more specific:

a. In eternity past, God (in order to more fully reveal to the elect His saving love towards them) purposed to create a people for displaying His power, wrath, and hatred of sin and unbelief. [Exo 9:14-16; Psa 73:17-18; Pro 16:4; Jer 6:28-30; Hab 1:6-11; Rom 9:17,21-23; 1Pe 2:8]

b. Every person without exception is either a vessel of mercy or a vessel of wrath. There is no one about whom God is undecided.

c. The Father determined to include the elect and the reprobate in one common fall, that they should be equally ruined and undone, equally guilty and defiled, and equally in need of a righteousness that neither could produce on their own. [Rom 3:9-12,23; 5:12-14; Eph 2:3]

d. God actively causes the reprobate to hate His glory, persecute His people, and oppose His gospel, that He may justly punish them. [Exo 7:3; 9:12; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 2:25; Psa 105:25; Rom 9:18; Rev 17:17]

e. God does not have any love toward the reprobate or any desire to save them, for God does not show love at the expense of His justice. The good things that God gives to them in this life lead only to their destruction, increasing their guilt for their thanklessness to God. Jesus Christ did not die for the reprobate in any sense, and they do not benefit in any sense from His death. Scripture, in speaking of God's love for "all men" and "the world" is not speaking of all men without exception. Rather, these words refer to God's love for all men without distinction - that is, regardless of their nationality or status. [Psa 2:4-5; 5:5-6; 11:5; 73:11-12; 92:7; Pro 3:32-33; 11:20; 12:2; 16:4-5; 17:15; Joh 3:16; 15:22; 17:9; Rom 9:13; 1Ti 2:4; 1Pe 2:8; 1Jo 2:2; 4:10]

f. God uses the preaching of the gospel as a special means of hardening the reprobate.

g. Contrary to the aspersions of the enemies of God, this doctrine of reprobation does not make believers exalt themselves over other men; instead, it humbles them and causes them to tremble before Almighty God, thankful that He has graciously numbered them among the elect rather than the reprobate. [Rom 9:15-16,23,29; 1Co 4:7; 2Th 2:11-13]

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[i][i]Final Question: How can you separate yourself from unbelievers if you don't judge someone to be an unbeliever?

Him who professes remission of sins through the blood of Christ and faith in the same unto salvation I consider to be a man of God. With those who refuse Christ as Lord and Savior I have no fellowship.

I agree with your answers to the other questions; however, I would rather say to this last one that an unbeliever is someone who does not believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ, which conditions salvation alone on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ for His people alone. Virtually all professing "Christians" would profess that they have remission of sins through Christ's blood and "faith" in Him unto salvation. However, this is not an indication that an individual is regenerate. It would be a great folly to embrace as brethren someone who simply professes "faith" in Christ. What does their faith IN Christ actually profess?


Indeed...

Thank you for your encouragement. I see that I must prayerfully and scripturally consider these things in greater depth. The necessary consequences of my adherence to the whole of what you put forth is the declaration that three retired ordained pastors on my mom's side and nearly all their kin (a handful uphold the doctrines of grace) are accursed of God for faith in a false gospel. Furthermore, the Bible says that I am to set them apart and not have fellowship with them anymore, which means that I will no longer visit them for any reason but to evangelize them.

You can visit people, but fellowship means to call someone a brother and or sister in Christ, and to fellowship with them in worship. Now if one is witnessing the true Gospel of Jesus Christ to a family member and they show themselves to be an unregenerate false professor, then one must not speak peace to them, when there is no peace. Bring to mind 2Jn 1:9-11 again. Also, if you declare the TRUE GOSPEL, this is what will happen, "Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you." - 1Jn 3:13.


This kind of division is indeed biblical (Luke 12:51-53), but I hope you'll forgive me if I do not immediately grasp this but pause to consider all the relavent Scriptures and to engage in prayer in this.

May God cause you to believe His truth!

"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them." - Pro 20:12.

-jonas

[Jon_]

Christians are to judge based on one's belief in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. It is written, "3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." - 2Cor 4:3-4. However, a man may say that he believes in the true gospel, but contradict this belief through other heretical notions, such as the idea that he or she was regenerate while he or she believed in a false gospel, or the idea that someone else who believes in a false gopsel (i.e. an Arminian, etc) is or could be regenerate. They bring "another gospel" because they suggest that two totally different gospels are actually acceptable in the eyes of the Lord, which is blasphemy. Furthermore, they would be ones who embraced those who, "abideth not in the doctrine of Christ"; therefore, they, "hath not God", and they would be, "partaker of his evil deeds" (1Jn 9-11). I am only saying that those who profess a false gopsel are currently lost (i.e. unregenerate).
I understand, and say I do believe this. I have felt conviction of this truth nearly from the immediate beginning of God's revelation of his doctrines of grace to me. I have always considered that if what I profess to be true is true, then those that profess something contradictory are wrong. As what I affirm as true is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it follows that these people contradict the same; thus, they are unregenerate and not partakers with Christ.

Also, in response to your statement that God uses the reprobate for His own ends, I would like to be more specific:

. . .


e. God does not have any love toward the reprobate or any desire to save them, for God does not show love at the expense of His justice. The good things that God gives to them in this life lead only to their destruction, increasing their guilt for their thanklessness to God. Jesus Christ did not die for the reprobate in any sense, and they do not benefit in any sense from His death. Scripture, in speaking of God's love for "all men" and "the world" is not speaking of all men without exception. Rather, these words refer to God's love for all men without distinction - that is, regardless of their nationality or status. [Psa 2:4-5; 5:5-6; 11:5; 73:11-12; 92:7; Pro 3:32-33; 11:20; 12:2; 16:4-5; 17:15; Joh 3:16; 15:22; 17:9; Rom 9:13; 1Ti 2:4; 1Pe 2:8; 1Jo 2:2; 4:10]
I suppose this depends on your definition of "love." God most certainly bestows blessings and does good for the evil and unjust in the form of kindnesses and favor through nature (Mt. 5:43-48). I think we are called to show the same kindness and blessings toward the reprobate. If we are called to love all and thus be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, does it not follow that God loves all men (at least in some sense)?

I do understand that God shows hatred toward the reprobate in the form of judgment and wrath and love toward the elect in the form of mercy and grace, but are you saying that all God's motives for "loving" the reprobate are intended only to promote further sinful rebellion in them?

It seems to be a far stretch to read this text to mean that God shows these favors to all kinds of men, but that only the good and just are loved while the evil and unjust are hated. This inference is not made in the passage in Matthew, indeed just the opposite.

Might you provide an exegesis of it?

f. God uses the preaching of the gospel as a special means of hardening the reprobate. [Isa 6:9-12; Mat 13:13-15; Mar 4:11-12; 2Co 2:14-16]
Right, the denial of "common grace" and the "sincere offer." I too reject the "sincere offer" of the gospel, finding it to be dangerous Arminian error.

g. Contrary to the aspersions of the enemies of God, this doctrine of reprobation does not make believers exalt themselves over other men; instead, it humbles them and causes them to tremble before Almighty God, thankful that He has graciously numbered them among the elect rather than the reprobate. [Rom 9:15-16,23,29; 1Co 4:7; 2Th 2:11-13]
Definitely. I am a worm saved solely by the grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus by no merit of my own but by according to his sovereign purpose in election. For that I am forever thankful and full of love toward him, for while I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me and really did complete the work of redemption required by the Father for the forgiveness of my sins, this being effectual to my salvation by way of his irresistable grace unto faith.

I agree with your answers to the other questions; however, I would rather say to this last one that an unbeliever is someone who does not believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ, which conditions salvation alone on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ for His people alone. Virtually all professing "Christians" would profess that they have remission of sins through Christ's blood and "faith" in Him unto salvation. However, this is not an indication that an individual is regenerate. It would be a great folly to embrace as brethren someone who simply professes "faith" in Christ. What does their faith IN Christ actually profess?

[QUOTE=jonas3]You can visit people, but fellowship means to call someone a brother and or sister in Christ, and to fellowship with them in worship.
Let me ask you this, is it sinful to partake of the Lord's Supper with any who do not profess the doctrines of grace? If so, then I could not even participate at church. Moreover, I realize I should not be at the church I am, but I made commitments prior to knowing better and I believe that I should uphold them.

Now if one is witnessing the true Gospel of Jesus Christ to a family member and they show themselves to be an unregenerate false professor, then one must not speak peace to them, when there is no peace. Bring to mind 2Jn 1:9-11 again. Also, if you declare the TRUE GOSPEL, this is what will happen, "Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you." - 1Jn 3:13.
I understand.

May God cause you to believe His truth!

"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them." - Pro 20:12.
Amen and amen.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Cajun Huguenot]

Jonas, holds to a deviant branch of Calvinism known as hyper-Calvinism and to a subsection of hypers that have fittingly been tagged by the folks at Monergism.com (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/hypercalvinism.html)as Neo-Gnostic Calvinism (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/neo_gnostic.html). I recommend y’all read it (especially Jon).

I asked Jonas about some of today’s prominent Calvinist and about C.H. Spurgeon but he has not answered (he has dodged the questions). So let me answer for. If his version of Calvinism is correct than:

RC Sproul is NOT saved.

JI Packer is NOT saved.

John Piper is NOT saved.

There are few if any saved pastors in the PCA, OPC, REC. or among the Reformed Baptist Churches.

C.H. Spurgeon is NOW in hell.

99.9 percent (give or take one or two) of all Calvinists are in hell or going to hell if Jonas’ understanding of the Gospel is correct. I have not yet read all of Calvin, but I have read at least 3/5 of the Institutes and a number of his letters and other writings and I think that by Jonas’s Standard he too was lost.

Few if any of the great Princeton theologians of the last century was saved. I can’t think of even one of the Church Fathers who was a Christian by the standard used by Jonas and other hyper-Calvinists like him.

Here are a couple of quotes from a hyper-Calvinist Blog that is mostly in agreement with Jonas. The Blog owner would allow that a Calvinists with my views can be saved, but others it is clear that by Jonas’ standard I am in good Calvintic company. I am going to be going to hell with some/most of the greatest Calvinists that have ever lived.

Marc Carpenter [Note: who agrees with Jonas] has anathematized certain theologians because they are tolerant of Arminianism. For example, Marc has anathematized John Robbins, Gordon Clark, John Pederson, the Protestant Reformed Church, WildBoar, John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, Arthur Pink, and others... His reasoning behind this is because these men have stated in one or more of their writings that *some* Armininians are saved while still an Arminian. (http://forums.5solas.org/showthread.php?postid=21763#post21763 (http://forums.5solas.org/showthread.php?postid=21763#post21763) )

[From a contributor] My judgment is that preachers who go on preaching duty faith and duty repentance have not been called of God, but are running the errands of their own belly. Of the such kind was Charles H Spurgeon, and many others past & present. This type is only one kind of Satan called preachers. (Harold)

[Blog owner response] Thank you Harald for so eloquently explaining what I have been struggling to convey. I must admit that you portrayed in one paragraph the truth much better than I did with my incoherent rambling! I agree with you that duty-faith is an error that is VERY serious. So much so that if people really believe the logical implications of such teaching, they have no knowledge of grace. It is heresy. It goes hand in hand with common grace, free offer preaching, "two wills" of God teaching, denial of sovereign reprobation, etc.... What I can't figure out is why Charles is so willing to defend it when he trashes the rest as dung as we rightfully should. (http://forums.5solas.org/showthread.php?postid=24976#post24977 (http://forums.5solas.org/showthread.php?postid=24976#post24977))

I will keep to the Gospel of Christ which was the Gospel that Calvin. Augustine, the Hodge’s of Princeton, CH Spurgeon, RC Sproul, Greg Bahnsen, John Piper, ad infinitum…

Jonas, and all who agree with him, are teaching, not only a false Calvinism but a greatly distorted Gospel as well.

I will respond to particulars soon as work and time allows.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

[Jon_]

Jonas, holds to a deviant branch of Calvinism known as hyper-Calvinism and to a subsection of hypers that have fittingly been tagged by the folks at Monergism.com (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/hypercalvinism.html)as Neo-Gnostic Calvinism (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/neo_gnostic.html). I recommend y’all read it (especially Jon).
Yeah, Neo-Gnostic Calvinism was the first thing that came to my mind, too.

From what I gather, Jonas seems to believe that a fully Calvinistic soteriology is the mark of a truly regenerate person, moreover, that such a person will profess the same, viz. that only those with a fully Calvinistic soteriology are regenerate.

What is difficult for me is that, as you mentioned Kenith, such a stance makes almost the entire world apostate. There are only thousands, maybe tens of thousands that affirm as Jones does, which seems to question the very foundation of our faith. I seriously doubt you could find a single church where everyone upheld the doctrine that he is putting forth. Such a church would have to be absolutely rigid with their admission requirements because allowing an Arminian into the midst could potentially jeopardize the salvation of everyone present!

While I commend his commitment to polemic against the false doctrine of Arminianism, I think he oversteps the biblical bounds of Christian judgment by unilaterally declaring who is and is not regenerate.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Cajun Huguenot]

Yeah, Neo-Gnostic Calvinism was the first thing that came to my mind, too.

From what I gather, Jonas seems to believe that a fully Calvinistic soteriology is the mark of a truly regenerate person, moreover, that such a person will profess the same, viz. that only those with a fully Calvinistic soteriology are regenerate.

What is difficult for me is that, as you mentioned Kenith, such a stance makes almost the entire world apostate. There are only thousands, maybe tens of thousands that affirm as Jones does, which seems to question the very foundation of our faith. I seriously doubt you could find a single church where everyone upheld the doctrine that he is putting forth. Such a church would have to be absolutely rigid with their admission requirements because allowing an Arminian into the midst could potentially jeopardize the salvation of everyone present!

While I commend his commitment to polemic against the false doctrine of Arminianism, I think he oversteps the biblical bounds of Christian judgment by unilaterally declaring who is and is not regenerate.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Thanks for your post Jon. Yes we all agree that Arminianism is a terrible heresy. But Jonas has gone far beyond the bounds of God's Word.

Here are some quotes from C.H. Spurgeon’s great sermon “A Defence of Calvinism (http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm).” According to Jonas this sermon proves that Spurgeon was not a Christian because Spurgeon held to a false Gospel. Jonas must believe that Spurgeon is in HELL.

When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this.

I recollect an Arminian brother telling me that he had read the Scriptures through a score or more times, and could never find the doctrine of election in them.

But far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views. Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley.

Deo favente,
Kenith

[seekingpurity047]

Sorry to kinda, though not really, shift the topic, but...

Say Christ saves someone who is on their death beds, then suddenly, that person dies. Without ever knowing anything about doctrine, is that person saved?

Randy

[Jon_]

Sorry to kinda, though not really, shift the topic, but...

Say Christ saves someone who is on their death beds, then suddenly, that person dies. Without ever knowing anything about doctrine, is that person saved?

Randy
Yes. Anyone saved by Christ is saved indeed.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Cajun Huguenot]

Sorry to kinda, though not really, shift the topic, but...

Say Christ saves someone who is on their death beds, then suddenly, that person dies. Without ever knowing anything about doctrine, is that person saved?

Randy


Randy,

Like the thief in the Cross next to Jesus? Yes. It is God who saves and not cognative ability or learning. If these other things are needed, than Mentally retarded people can not be saved, and perhaps even all infants that die are lost as well.

In Christ,
Kenith

[seekingpurity047]

Randy,

Like the thief in the Cross next to Jesus? Yes. It is God who saves and not cognative ability or learning. If these other things are needed, than Mentally retarded people can not be saved, and perhaps even all infants that die are lost as well.

In Christ,
Kenith

Then, I think we just proved a very important point concerning whether an arminian is regenerate or not. The question was merely rhetorical, as I already knew the answer, but it was just one of thsoe things to prove a point, ya know. As, I do however believe that arminians should be taught sound doctrine, God will surely make everyone a calvinist in eternity, surely.

Randy

[jonas3]

I suppose this depends on your definition of "love." God most certainly bestows blessings and does good for the evil and unjust in the form of kindnesses and favor through nature (Mt. 5:43-48). I think we are called to show the same kindness and blessings toward the reprobate. If we are called to love all and thus be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, does it not follow that God loves all men (at least in some sense)?

Please consider all that I have said...

God does not love the reprobate in anyway, nor does he desire to save them. If God had a desire to save them, then they would be saved. God does not have desires that He cannot fulfill, for He is the sovereign God of the universe who does whatsoever He pleases. God only has love for His elect, and even they were enemies to God before they were regenerated. As it is written,

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." - Ro 5:10.

The blessings that the reprobate receive in this life only lead to their destruction (every single one of them). They are made to be destroyed, and everything God gives them only hardens them further. Check out the Scripture references in relation to the section quoted above, which were: [Psa 2:4-5; 5:5-6; 11:5; 73:11-12; 92:7; Pro 3:32-33; 11:20; 12:2; 16:4-5; 17:15; Joh 3:16; 15:22; 17:9; Rom 9:13; 1Ti 2:4; 1Pe 2:8; 1Jo 2:2; 4:10]). Nevertheless, as it is written,

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever" - Ps 92:7.

Vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction (Ro 9:22). Take for example what has been written of Judas, that wicked son of perdition,

"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born." - Mat 26:24.

Did the blessings that Judas received in his life benefit him? Was it a blessing for him to be taught at the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Indeed, Christians are to love their enemies, but loving their enemy's means that they don't speak peace to them! I don't love my enemies by telling them they are regenerate and fit for the kingdom, when in fact they prove themselves to be wicked blasphemers. I would hate them if I told them that they should be at peace with God when they are currently lost. Christians are commanded to love (i.e. do good unto) all men and seek to live peaceably with all men (i.e. Christians never seek to harm anyone); however, is this kindness a blessing to the reprobate? It is written,

Romans 12:17-21
"17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." - Ro 12:17-21

These loving acts were certainly not blessings to the reprobate, for they only increased their guilt towards God. Gods' people hate what God hates; therefore, they hate the false gospel of the unregenerate, as well as those who profess it; however, this in no way contradicts the command that Christians love their enemies. Christians do good unto their enemies, which includes telling them that they are unregenerate as well as praying for their enemies that God might save them (i.e. regenerate them). As it is written, "21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies." - Ps 139:21-22, and this "hatred" does no evil thing unto them.

I do understand that God shows hatred toward the reprobate in the form of judgment and wrath and love toward the elect in the form of mercy and grace, but are you saying that all God's motives for "loving" the reprobate are intended only to promote further sinful rebellion in them?

It seems to be a far stretch to read this text to mean that God shows these favors to all kinds of men, but that only the good and just are loved while the evil and unjust are hated. This inference is not made in the passage in Matthew, indeed just the opposite.

As written above, God does not love the reprobate in anyway, and yes, as stated above all of the blessings that the reprobates receive in this life lead only to their destruction. The supposed blessings that the reprobates receive in this life do not help them one bit in the flames of hell, for it is only fuel for their destruction.

"f. God uses the preaching of the gospel as a special means of hardening the reprobate. [Isa 6:9-12; Mat 13:13-15; Mar 4:11-12; 2Co 2:14-16]"

Right, the denial of "common grace" and the "sincere offer." I too reject the "sincere offer" of the gospel, finding it to be dangerous Arminian error.

I do not think you do firmly believe it. Although you say that you reject it as a, "dangerous Arminian error", your statements above actually show that you do not reject it because you think that God shows "love" (i.e. "common grace") to the reprobate. For example you stated above, "It seems to be a far stretch to read this text to mean that God shows these favors to all kinds of men, but that only the good and just are loved while the evil and unjust are hated. This inference is not made in the passage in Matthew, indeed just the opposite." So if the Matthew passage is showing the opposite (i.e. that God shows love to the evil and unjust), then how can you now say that it is a "dangerous Arminian error"? Furthermore, and what do you mean when you say that it is a, "dangerous Arminian error"? It can only be dangerous if those who believe it are unregenerate, or if those who think that others are regenerate while believing it. However, you do not feel that you can judge someone to be presently unregenerate by their confession, so I see why you stumble on this. Christians are commanded to separate from unbelievers, and how do Christians know who the unbelievers are? (see Mat 7:17-20, and Lk 6:45 for starters).

Let me ask you this, is it sinful to partake of the Lord's Supper with any who do not profess the doctrines of grace? If so, then I could not even participate at church. Moreover, I realize I should not be at the church I am, but I made commitments prior to knowing better and I believe that I should uphold them.

Christians are not to fellowship in worship with anyone but believers (i.e. those who have obtained like precious faith (2Pet 1:1)). To fellowship with unbelievers is to call them brothers and sisters in Christ, which is why God has commanded that Christians be separate from unbelievers in order to witness to them (i.e. by being separate from them Christians are telling them that they ARE unbelievers (i.e. unregenerate)). Christians call people their brothers and sisters in Christ ONLY after they have stated their belief in the true gospel, and only if they do not contradict this belief by some other heretical doctrine. This is why Christians are commanded to, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." – Jn 7:24. Christians are commanded to judge who unbelievers are based on their doctrine; and therefore, Christians do not fellowship with those who bring not the doctrine of Christ (please read 2Jn 1:9-11). To clarify, Christians are NOT commanded to judge the eternal state of an individual (i.e. judge someone to be going to hell (1Cor 2:15)); however, Christians are absolutely commanded to judge someone to be a Christian or not (i.e. regenerate vs. unregenerate) based on that persons doctrine at that point in time (i.e. I say, "at that point in time", because God may very well regenerate that person later on in their life and give them the knowledge of the gospel). This righteous judgment is required of Christians so that they will properly separate themselves from unbelievers as they are commanded to do. Christians will declare the gospel unto all men, but Christians will not allow unbelievers into the fellowship of believers, since that is unbiblical. Therefore, Christians assemble together with those who believe the true gospel, which I might add is a very small number. Nonetheless, Jesus said, where two or three are gathered together in HIS name, there He is in the midst of them (Mat 18:20). Is Jesus in the midst of the assemblies of believers and unbelievers? Do unbelievers gather together in His name? To conclude, God has blown His trumpet, "Come out of her my people" (Rev 18:4).

Furthermore, when you say that you realize that you should not be at the church that you are at, but that you have made, "commitments prior to knowing better", you have made your circumstances your god. You reject the commandment of God, that you may be ruled by your circumstances.

-jonas

[seekingpurity047]

Uuuh... I think, jonas, that you are missing a very important aspect here. We, as believers, do not know who are the reprobate and who are the elect, and I think that's why God commands us to love, it's to love in the sense of spreading the gospel, fulfilling the great commission, so taht those that are elect, which may be our enemies at the moment, are saved. For it says in Ephesians 5:1-2

"Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God."

Don't you understand the way that God works to fulfill His will? He uses other people to attend to His will, so that the elect may be saved, and that there may be glory to His name. Love is more than you say it actually is. If Jesus intended for us to think "Do good to your enemies" rather than "Love your enemies" that He would have simply told us to do good to them ONLY. But love is so much more than doing good to them. Love is something from the heart. It's compassion for people, no matter how much they hate God. It's to love them the way that God loved us even before we were regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Why do we actually feel compassion for these people? Because we don't know who the elect are, so we have to love them the way that Christ also loved us, even before we were regenerated by His awesome sovereignty. That's why we actually love people, because we don't know what God might do. Like, when we weren't believers, we had no idea that He was goign to save us, but the things that the other christians did around you showed you God's love, for that was God's will. To show you His love through them. Maybe that's how He changed your heart. That's what He did for me.

Randy

[Cajun Huguenot]

God will surely make everyone a calvinist in eternity, surely.

Randy

Amen!!!

In Christ,
KEnith

[Cajun Huguenot]

Uuuh... I think, jonas, that you are missing a very important aspect here. We, as believers, do not know who are the reprobate and who are the elect, and I think that's why God commands us to love, it's to love in the sense of spreading the gospel, fulfilling the great commission, so taht those that are elect, which may be our enemies at the moment, are saved. For it says in Ephesians 5:1-2

"Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God."

Don't you understand the way that God works to fulfill His will? He uses other people to attend to His will, so that the elect may be saved, and that there may be glory to His name. Love is more than you say it actually is. If Jesus intended for us to think "Do good to your enemies" rather than "Love your enemies" that He would have simply told us to do good to them ONLY. But love is so much more than doing good to them. Love is something from the heart. It's compassion for people, no matter how much they hate God. It's to love them the way that God loved us even before we were regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Why do we actually feel compassion for these people? Because we don't know who the elect are, so we have to love them the way that Christ also loved us, even before we were regenerated by His awesome sovereignty. That's why we actually love people, because we don't know what God might do. Like, when we weren't believers, we had no idea that He was goign to save us, but the things that the other christians did around you showed you God's love, for that was God's will. To show you His love through them. Maybe that's how He changed your heart. That's what He did for me.

Randy

And again: Amen!!

Kenith

[Cajun Huguenot]

Jonas,
Since you did not answer the questions I tried to give the answers you would give.

Did I get the answers correct as to the salvation of Sproul, Packer, Spurgeon, JC Ryle, the Hodges, John Calvin, most if not every pastor in the PCA, OPC, REC, most Reformed Baptist Churches and all the Fathers of the early Church.

Are they all now in hell or on the way to hell (like me)? A simple yes or no should do it.

Deo Vindice,
Kenith

[PropheticEvangelist]

God will surely make everyone a Calvinist in glory, surely

Thank God that will certainly never happen!

[Cajun Huguenot]

Thank God that will certainly never happen!

HTis is an example of not following the Rules. You have lots of room in the http://www.christianforums.com/clear.gifSpirit-Filled - Pentecostal/ Charismatic (http://www.christianforums.com/f122-spirit-filled-pentecostal-charismatic.html)
Forum, because that is what you are (it is like your own home). You have to be polite here because you enter as a guest. I can not go into your that forum acting like you do her, because it is not allowed and I too would be banned.

FOLLOW the RULES. They are not that hard to follow.

In Christ,
Kenth

[JJB]

:wave:

Now I see why it is called hyper-Calvinism. It goes beyond what is taught. Thanks everyone for enlightening me.

You learn something new everyday. Sometimes you relearn the same lesson: it is essential to be in communion with the One and follow His leading only.

[PropheticEvangelist]

HTis is an example of not following the Rules. You have lots of room in the http://www.christianforums.com/clear.gifSpirit-Filled - Pentecostal/ Charismatic (http://www.christianforums.com/f122-spirit-filled-pentecostal-charismatic.html)
Forum, because that is what you are (it is like your own home). You have to be polite here because you enter as a guest. I can not go into your that forum acting like you do her, because it is not allowed and I too would be banned.

FOLLOW the RULES. They are not that hard to follow.

In Christ,
Kenth

How did I not follow the rules?

I simply made a correct statement!

[JJB]

What was the OP again? Oh, yeah, here it is:

If we are saved by grace, then faith must be a work, right?

Randy

[CoffeeSwirls]

Looking at the record, PropheticEvangelist has had 14 posts. 8 in Semper, 6 in regional and non-Christian topics. This username has been around since November 2003, but has been idle for nearly two years. Now, in 2003 all posts were pretty vanilla, but in 2005 all posts are recent and are here in Semper.

Isn't that interesting? I can't help but wonder if JamesMichael or PentecostalEvangelist are familiar with this PropheticEvangelist who has just jumped out of nowhere to harass Semper again... I mean for the first time. I'm willing to bet that this troll, beta version 3.1, will say some hateful things of other Christians, refuse to provide biblical support for his claims, demand that we do, not read our support, accuse us of hateful things again, and end up on my ignore list... again.

Hmm, JamesMichael has been removed from the forums. He appears to be banned for some reason that is obviously not his fault. Coincidence? I think not!

[Jon_]

I do not think you do firmly believe it. Although you say that you reject it as a, "dangerous Arminian error", your statements above actually show that you do not reject it because you think that God shows "love" (i.e. "common grace") to the reprobate.
No, I certainly do. I firmly believe that God shows the reprobate love knowing that they will only be hardened by it, thus incurring further wrath upon themselves. The Bible is clear that God shows love in the form of blessings and kindnesses to all men. His intentions by these are certainly different in the sense that his love is salvific toward the elect and only a love despite his repugnance toward the reprobate. The true offer of the Gospel is only extended by the Spirit to the elect and truly only heard by them, but God nevertheless loves all men, even though he does not decree their salvation.

Christians are not to fellowship in worship with anyone but believers (i.e. those who have obtained like precious faith (2Pet 1:1)). To fellowship with unbelievers is to call them brothers and sisters in Christ, which is why God has commanded that Christians be separate from unbelievers in order to witness to them (i.e. by being separate from them Christians are telling them that they ARE unbelievers (i.e. unregenerate)). Christians call people their brothers and sisters in Christ ONLY after they have stated their belief in the true gospel, and only if they do not contradict this belief by some other heretical doctrine. This is why Christians are commanded to, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." – Jn 7:24. Christians are commanded to judge who unbelievers are based on their doctrine; and therefore, Christians do not fellowship with those who bring not the doctrine of Christ (please read 2Jn 1:9-11). To clarify, Christians are NOT commanded to judge the eternal state of an individual (i.e. judge someone to be going to hell (1Cor 2:15)); however, Christians are absolutely commanded to judge someone to be a Christian or not (i.e. regenerate vs. unregenerate) based on that persons doctrine at that point in time (i.e. I say, "at that point in time", because God may very well regenerate that person later on in their life and give them the knowledge of the gospel). This righteous judgment is required of Christians so that they will properly separate themselves from unbelievers as they are commanded to do. Christians will declare the gospel unto all men, but Christians will not allow unbelievers into the fellowship of believers, since that is unbiblical. Therefore, Christians assemble together with those who believe the true gospel, which I might add is a very small number. Nonetheless, Jesus said, where two or three are gathered together in HIS name, there He is in the midst of them (Mat 18:20). Is Jesus in the midst of the assemblies of believers and unbelievers? Do unbelievers gather together in His name? To conclude, God has blown His trumpet, "Come out of her my people" (Rev 18:4).
I would think that, according to your views, any one who shared the Lord's Supper with any but a Calvinist Christian who demanded nothing but a full Calvinist confession of faith would be shown to be unregenerate because they willingly allowed unbelievers to partake of the accidents in their midst.

If that is true, then you can probably count on your hands the number of non-apostate churches.

Furthermore, when you say that you realize that you should not be at the church that you are at, but that you have made, "commitments prior to knowing better", you have made your circumstances your god. You reject the commandment of God, that you may be ruled by your circumstances.
Would you say that if a Christian marries an unbeliever that they are free to divorce when they realize the error of their ways?

My tenure at this church will be over soon enough, but it should be readily apparent that no temporal assembly will ever be perfect. All congregations have their faults. I would be utterly flabbergasted to find a pastor within 500 miles of my church preaching the Gospel that I believe with my whole heart is correct.

Actually, there is one. The Hope Protestant Reformed Church in Redlands, CA. They are only around 472 miles away from me. Were there a Protestant Reformed Church available to me, that's where I would be. Until then, I can only trust that God will move to a church body in which I will be of service to him.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[PropheticEvangelist]

Looking at the record, PropheticEvangelist has had 14 posts. 8 in Semper, 6 in regional and non-Christian topics. This username has been around since November 2003, but has been idle for nearly two years. Now, in 2003 all posts were pretty vanilla, but in 2005 all posts are recent and are here in Semper.

Isn't that interesting? I can't help but wonder if JamesMichael or PentecostalEvangelist are familiar with this PropheticEvangelist who has just jumped out of nowhere to harass Semper again... I mean for the first time. I'm willing to bet that this troll, beta version 3.1, will say some hateful things of other Christians, refuse to provide biblical support for his claims, demand that we do, not read our support, accuse us of hateful things again, and end up on my ignore list... again.

Hmm, JamesMichael has been removed from the forums. He appears to be banned for some reason that is obviously not his fault. Coincidence? I think not!

I forgive you.

[CoffeeSwirls]

Will you at least affirm or deny what I have said?

[PropheticEvangelist]

Will you at least affirm or deny what I have said?

Coffeeswirls, I will readily afirm this, I am wrong, always have been wrong, always will be wrong, you are right, always have been right, and always will be right about anything and, everything.

I have absolutely no inteligence whatsoever.

Now does that satisfy all of you?

[CoffeeSwirls]

You have been told several times what we adhere to, what we believe, what we do not believe, that you do not have to believe as we do (calvinism) in order to be saved. You have not listened a single time. You have demanded Biblical proof to calvinism, which you have ignored. You have failed to provide any proof to your claims, and have even said that you are looking for Bible passages that will agree with you.

Now you give your typical empty apology that smacks of sarcasm and expect that to be "good enough" for us? You are a liar and a slanderer and you knowingly abuse the privledges of these forums over and over. You are in a forum where you must be a Christian to post. One concept of Christianity is sanctification, being conformed to the image of Christ. This does not mean that you do not sin, but it does imply that at some point you accept the fact that you are required by God to be truthful and sincere in your faith. You do the opposite. If I were Erwin, I would take your IP and ban it, not just your next name that you can pull from a hat.

Since your last name has been banned, there is now an open slot in my ignore list for the current name. I have no doubt that I will be putting your next name in there in a short matter of days or weeks.

[jonas3]

No, I certainly do. I firmly believe that God shows the reprobate love knowing that they will only be hardened by it, thus incurring further wrath upon themselves. The Bible is clear that God shows love in the form of blessings and kindnesses to all men. His intentions by these are certainly different in the sense that his love is salvific toward the elect and only a love despite his repugnance toward the reprobate. The true offer of the Gospel is only extended by the Spirit to the elect and truly only heard by them, but God nevertheless loves all men, even though he does not decree their salvation.

No, you certainly do not. You just articulated the very definition of "common grace", or "universal love", or as you put it, "kindnesses to all men". All of these phrases are simply different ways of expressing the same thing. Not only this, you took one step closer to the "common grace" proponents by suggesting that God has different "senses" of His love. You stated that God has a special salvific love towards His elect, and a different non-salvific love towards the reprobate. This IS the very definition of "common grace", which is what you supposedly call a, "dangerous Arminian error". God is infinitely holy, righteous, and just; thus, He does not show grace or “love” at the expense of His holiness, righteousness, or justice. God only shows loves towards His elect through the work of Jesus Christ, and since the work of Jesus Christ is not universal in any sense; therefore, God does not show any love towards the non-elect reprobate. The so called blessings that fall upon the heads of the reprobate are only a curse onto them that cause them to flourish in order that they may be destroyed (Ps 92:7).

I would think that, according to your views, any one who shared the Lord's Supper with any but a Calvinist Christian who demanded nothing but a full Calvinist confession of faith would be shown to be unregenerate because they willingly allowed unbelievers to partake of the accidents in their midst.

If that is true, then you can probably count on your hands the number of non-apostate churches.

For starters, I am not a "Calvinist", for if I were a "Calvinist", then I probably would agree with you. (Note to others reading this post. I believe in the doctrines of grace; however, I do not believe in them in the way in which "Calvinist" do.) Secondly, the only requirement that I have made for fellowship of the believers is that they ARE a believer!! Who is to be considered a believer? Namely, one who believes in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Is this some new doctrine foreign to your ears? A modern day "church" by definition is apostate, seeing how they openly invite in unbelievers, which is unbiblical. Therefore, only hypocrites “attend” church. I call them hypocrites because they say that they believe in separating from unbelievers and will give lip service to the Scripture all day long, but they WILL NOT come out. Interesting. They WILL NOT come out, because they do not have His Word abiding in them.

Would you say that if a Christian marries an unbeliever that they are free to divorce when they realize the error of their ways?

A Christian (i.e. not a professor of “Christianity”) will never marry an unbeliever.

My tenure at this church will be over soon enough, but it should be readily apparent that no temporal assembly will ever be perfect. All congregations have their faults. I would be utterly flabbergasted to find a pastor within 500 miles of my church preaching the Gospel that I believe with my whole heart is correct.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked…" – Jer 17:9.

Actually, there is one. The Hope Protestant Reformed Church in Redlands, CA. They are only around 472 miles away from me. Were there a Protestant Reformed Church available to me, that's where I would be. Until then, I can only trust that God will move to a church body in which I will be of service to him.

So you leave one "church" that serves an idol-god who cannot save, to join another "church" that serves an idol-god who cannot save. Truly, I do pray that God would cause you to believe the truth.

-jonas

[Cajun Huguenot]

A modern day "church" by definition is apostate, seeing how they openly invite in unbelievers, which is unbiblical. Therefore, only hypocrites “attend” church.
-jonas

Jonas,

So it seems that the ONLY person that Jon can worship with, and not be an apostate himself, is you. I am curious, can you name five other REAL Christians (by your standard). If YOUR standard were correct than you would be the first Christian I've ever meet. Your views would be laughable if they were not so sad.

Do you think any of the Reformers were Christians? I can't think of one of the Reformers who was a Christian by your standard.

How about the Church Fathers? I've been reading them and as for as I can tell by your standard none of the Fathers were Christians.

Do you believe Peter and Paul were Christians?

I have meet a few hyper Calvinists, but you are the hyperist hyper-Calvinist that I have ever meet. Since meeting you I have found a few more like you on the web.

What you believe would be laughable if it were not so sad. I pray the Lord will soften you heart, dampen your pride and bring you to Himself and his people the Church.

If you are not a Calvinist, as you now admit, you are not supposed to be debating on this forum. Hummm?

In Christ,
Kenith

[Jon_]

A modern day "church" by definition is apostate, seeing how they openly invite in unbelievers, which is unbiblical. Therefore, only hypocrites “attend” church. I call them hypocrites because they say that they believe in separating from unbelievers and will give lip service to the Scripture all day long, but they WILL NOT come out. Interesting. They WILL NOT come out, because they do not have His Word abiding in them.
Ah, so you're a separatist, too. That makes sense. Not even Christ himself can conform to your standards, which means neither can you. Your beliefs are utterly inconsistent. Where did you come up with this stuff?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[CCWoody]

Boy all this talk about apostate churches is making me feel all tingly and ecumenical.

[jonas3]

Ah, so you're a separatist, too. That makes sense. Not even Christ himself can conform to your standards, which means neither can you. Your beliefs are utterly inconsistent. Where did you come up with this stuff?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Of course, you have refuted nothing, nor have you backed up any of your claims with Scripture. Your "christ" conforms to everybody's standards, so of course you know nothing concerning the righteous commands of God or His gospel. The remnant of God most definitely separates from the unrighteous religious world, just as God Himself is separate from all who do not have the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to them.

The professing "church" is apostate. This does not mean that true Christians do not exist, nor does it mean that true Christians do not assemble together to hear and discuss the Word.

Questions to you in relation to the professing "church"...

1. Do they or do they not invite in unbelievers?

2. Does the Bible command Christians to separate from unbelievers?

-jonas

[Cajun Huguenot]

The professing "church" is apostate. This does not mean that true Christians do not exist, nor does it mean that true Christians do not assemble together to hear and discuss the Word.

Questions to you in relation to the professing "church"...

1. Do they or do they not invite in unbelievers?

2. Does the Bible command Christians to separate from unbelievers?

-jonas

Jonas,

When are you going to answer questions asked of you?

Are you able to assemble with other believers? Is there another Christian (by your standard) near enough for you to worship with?

In Christ,
Kenth

[CCWoody]

the hyperist hyper-Calvinist that I have ever met.

Maybe he just had too much coffee.

[CoffeeSwirls]

Jonas,
Do you listen to alot of Family Christian Radio with Harold Camping? What you are describing sounds much like his assertion that the Holy Spirit no longer works in the church. He says the "church age" is over and has even set a date (I think in 2011) for the rapture of the true church, those who came out of the apostate church and worship the Lord by listening to Family Christian Radio.

CCWoody, Too much coffee? There is no such thing!

[CCWoody]

CCWoody, Too much coffee? There is no such thing!

http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/gfursin/humor/images/humor162.jpg

[jonas3]

Jonas,
Do you listen to alot of Family Christian Radio with Harold Camping? What you are describing sounds much like his assertion that the Holy Spirit no longer works in the church. He says the "church age" is over and has even set a date (I think in 2011) for the rapture of the true church, those who came out of the apostate church and worship the Lord by listening to Family Christian Radio.

CCWoody, Too much coffee? There is no such thing!

No, and the Bible says nothing about this so called "church age" you speak of. Anyway, the true Church of God has existed, does exist, and will exist until the coming of their Lord. The professing "church", that calls itself "Christian", just like it has always been, and just like the self-righteous Pharisees, is apostate. You just think that the street corner synagogue is the true Church. You are wrong.

-jonas

[Foundthelight]

No, and the Bible says nothing about this so called "church age" you speak of. Anyway, the true Church of God has existed, does exist, and will exist until the coming of their Lord. The professing "church", that calls itself "Christian", just like it has always been, and just like the self-righteous Pharisees, is apostate. You just think that the street corner synagogue is the true Church. You are wrong.

-jonas

Paul made it plain that we are to gather together to worship God, that this is a requirement to be challenged and grow in faith. Just because there are unsaved hypocrites(sp?) in the church does not mean the whole church is apostate.

[seekingpurity047]

I am very very sorry but this all sounds cultish on jonas's part.... Christ was a friend of Sinners.

Matthew 11:19

The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

Aren't we supposed to be imitators of God, aka Jesus Christ. Ephesians 5:1

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children...

So, shouldn't we be like Jesus was, and be friends of sinners? By inviting them to church, and maybe God will use the service to open their hearts to Him. To make them willing to accept Him into their lives. God does this all of the time.

Why can't you see it? May Christ soften your heart, and bring you to the reality of it all.

Randy

[Cajun Huguenot]

I would like to have Jonas tell us how many other people he knows personally that are Christians. Iam wondering if he is the only "true" Christian that he knows. Can he count the "true" Christians he knows on more than one hand?

Jonas seems to have the worst case of "New Calvinist diseases" that I have ever seen.

"New Calvinist diseases" seems to afflect some new Calvinsts for a time, and it is more prevalent in the young. It is an att