OSAS Question

[JeffreyLloyd]

How does the belief in OSAS work for you? What scriptures do you beleive support it?

My questions:

1) A hardcore Christian, turns his back on his faith and ends up killing someone in cold blood. Is he saved?

2) An abortion doctor who loves God and Jesus and has said the sinners prayers and beleives in his heart that Jesus is his Lord. But he sees nothing wrong with killing babies every day... is he saved?

Thank you in advance :)

[mesue]

Why are you asking?

[seebs]

FWIW, I am pretty sure the canonical answer should be "I don't know" to both questions. Unless God recently registered an account.

[MbiaJc]

How does the belief in OSAS work for you? What scriptures do you beleive support it?

My questions:

1) A hardcore Christian, turns his back on his faith and ends up killing someone in cold blood. Is he saved?

2) An abortion doctor who loves God and Jesus and has said the sinners prayers and beleives in his heart that Jesus is his Lord. But he sees nothing wrong with killing babies every day... is he saved?

Thank you in advance :)

The answer to both questions is could be. The only one that really knows is God and maybe the person.

[ZiSunka]

1) A hardcore Christian, turns his back on his faith and ends up killing someone in cold blood. Is he saved?


Someone who has saving faith in Christ lives a transformed life and doesn't have the desire to murder, but instead sees every person as more worthy of life than himself. A follower of the teachings of Jesus gives his own life to save another's, he doesn't take a life for his own selfish reasons.


2) An abortion doctor who loves God and Jesus and has said the sinners prayers and beleives in his heart that Jesus is his Lord. But he sees nothing wrong with killing babies every day... is he saved?


There is no such thing as an abortion doctor who loves God. A person who has saving faith in Christ could never earn his living by taking the life of unborn children. It would sicken and disgust him.

Saying a prayer doesn't save you. It is not a magic trick or a secret incantation that somehow brings you out of an unsaved condition and into eternal life. Salvation is by grace through continuing faith in Chirst. People who walk an aisle or say a prayer are no more saved than someone who never heard the name of Jesus. Salvation is an event, but it is expressed through a life lived in humble submission to God. A Christian may make a mistake and sin, even accidentally kill, but no one who knowingly plans a murder or murders in anger is a follower of Christ. That person has no relationship with Christ at all.

[JeffreyLloyd]

Why are you asking?

I caught up with a friend I knew back in High School. We were in the same bible study group together and went to the same baptist church. He, like myself was a hardcore Christian back then.

Now, today he is not a believer. He said he doesn't believe in God anymore. How does the doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" work for him?

I gave two extreme examples, just to see what it would be in those cases.

He was saved, he had Jesus in his life. We went door to door passing out tracts, if you'd have asked me 7 years ago was he "saved" I would have said of course he was.

I used to believe in OSAS when I was baptist, that's why I'm asking here :)

[Project 86]

I caught up with a friend I knew back in High School. We were in the same bible study group together and went to the same baptist church. He, like myself was a hardcore Christian back then.

Now, today he is not a believer. He said he doesn't believe in God anymore. How does the doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" work for him?

I gave two extreme examples, just to see what it would be in those cases.

He was saved, he had Jesus in his life. We went door to door passing out tracts, if you'd have asked me 7 years ago was he "saved" I would have said of course he was.

I used to believe in OSAS when I was baptist, that's why I'm asking here :)

So now your a Catholic and he's a nonbeliever. If he's really a nonbeliever and not just on an extreme backslide I would say he never was saved. What is a hardcore Christian? People can act hardcore about a lot of things but their heart is much different then their actions. As for scripture supporting OSAS let me list a few.

1 John 5:13, John 10:27-29 and 2 Corinthians 5:17

[Project 86]

How does the belief in OSAS work for you? What scriptures do you beleive support it?

My questions:

1) A hardcore Christian, turns his back on his faith and ends up killing someone in cold blood. Is he saved?

2) An abortion doctor who loves God and Jesus and has said the sinners prayers and beleives in his heart that Jesus is his Lord. But he sees nothing wrong with killing babies every day... is he saved?

Thank you in advance :)

1. Was he hardcore for Christ with his actions but had a hard heart towards Christ inside? Also, who did he say Christ was when he was so hardcore for him?

2. Does he honestly believe he's not murdering and at the same time he honestly believes in his heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior?

[Oxygen]

I have to agree with some of the above posters, either one could be saved, that is between God and that individual. None of us can see that person's condition and heart.

I will say this...on point one, hardcore Christian means nothing. I think Steven Curtis Chapman summed it up pretty well in his song THE CHANGE. He talks about having all of this Christian "junk" and being all "jesus-ified" but, while all of that is all well and good there has to be a change of heart and renewing of mind. I know many former "hardcores" who are atheists now. Christianity is not about being "hardcore," it is about faithful discipleship and walking with the Lord daily. We may fail and fall, but I don't think a true believer could ever walk away in the sense that question one seems to have.

On point two, I think you misunderstand the SINNERS PRAYER. It is not a magical formula to salvation. Salvation is by Grace through Faith (Faith being given by the Grace of God as well). The Sinners Prayer is more of a way of communicating in words your conviction and faith, rather than a means of salvation. You can pray that prayer a billion times and never be saved.

[eldermike]

I caught up with a friend I knew back in High School. We were in the same bible study group together and went to the same baptist church. He, like myself was a hardcore Christian back then.

Now, today he is not a believer. He said he doesn't believe in God anymore. How does the doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" work for him?

I gave two extreme examples, just to see what it would be in those cases.

He was saved, he had Jesus in his life. We went door to door passing out tracts, if you'd have asked me 7 years ago was he "saved" I would have said of course he was.

I used to believe in OSAS when I was baptist, that's why I'm asking here :)

I have seen many people saved after years and years of church going. I know one man that was a youth minister.
The bible tells us that there is a strange attraction to Christianity. We know it's Christ and not us. We can also know that many will hear or see what they want to hear or see. But in a time of testing they will fall away. This is not a lost salvation, they never had the root in the first place.
Read this: (most leave out the important first part)
LK 8:9 His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,

" `though seeing, they may not see;

though hearing, they may not understand.'

LK 8:11 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

Jesus tells us about 3 types of followers. Those on a rock are those that will not stay through the first trial. Those in the thorns will go a bit farther along but will fall away. Those that are good soil will produce and retain the Word (salvation).
God get's the glory in salvation, it's His word not ours.
The answer to your question is in the bible, we can know we are saved.

I am saved, I know others that are saved. I will not lose my salvation, that's not pride, it's blessed assurance.

A saved person is God's witness to a lost world, God's word is the seed, the Christian is the result. A Christian is not saved for His personal good or benifit, it's for God's purposes that we are saved. Salvation can't be earned, given away or sinned away. There is only one hiding place for us.

A good bible study is to find all the means by which we are protected and kept as Christians.
Jesus is my Shepherd.
Jesus gathers.........
Jesus tucks.......
Jesus died for............
Jesus is my.............
The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want (wow) He leads (who leads?) me to sill water, He restores my soul.......(I can't fix or replace a soul)

Saved forever,
Eldermike

[JeffreyLloyd]

1. Was he hardcore for Christ with his actions but had a hard heart towards Christ inside? Also, who did he say Christ was when he was so hardcore for him?

The guy loved the Lord! I have no doubt in my mind. He was a Christian, of course I don't know his heart, but I really doubt he did what he did to "look cool." He lead Bible studies and such.

Anyway, I don't want to start a big thread over this, and from the responses it looks like your just as confused as I am over it! lol (save Eldermike's fine post).

Thanks guys!

[Richard]

When I get home from school, I'll post scripture on the matter. I don't have time right now to do so.

The only problem I forsee is that the way people interpret the scripture is. I will say this shows OSAS, but you will say HOW? I will say like this... and you will say that doesn't mean the same thing. The only one who knows if OSAS is true is Christ.

It's just a matter of opinion, one that has seperated the whole theme of unity for centuries and centuries to come.

[eldermike]

When I get home from school, I'll post scripture on the matter. I don't have time right now to do so.

The only problem I forsee is that the way people interpret the scripture is. I will say this shows OSAS, but you will say HOW? I will say like this... and you will say that doesn't mean the same thing. The only one who knows if OSAS is true is Christ.

It's just a matter of opinion, one that has seperated the whole theme of unity for centuries and centuries to come.

Jesus said He came to save what was lost. Jesus saves! The whole losing salvation discussion is right out of hell.
Satan tells us:
We are not clean enough.
We do not do enough.
We failed again.
and again

Baptist's need to tell people the good news, It's Jesus that saves and He will not fail you.

The broken unity comes from a lie, that's what we need to say.:wave:

I look forward to your post.

[Richard]

A brief overview of where I am coming from...

People say Jesus doesn't turn our back on us. We turn our backs on Him. It is not possible for us to leave Him. And since He never leaves us. We are therefore, Once we are saved. He, nor we, can never leave the presence of Christ.

[mesue]

I caught up with a friend I knew back in High School. We were in the same bible study group together and went to the same baptist church. He, like myself was a hardcore Christian back then.

Now, today he is not a believer. He said he doesn't believe in God anymore. How does the doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" work for him?

I gave two extreme examples, just to see what it would be in those cases.

He was saved, he had Jesus in his life. We went door to door passing out tracts, if you'd have asked me 7 years ago was he "saved" I would have said of course he was.

I used to believe in OSAS when I was baptist, that's why I'm asking here :)
I'm sorry about your friend. I pray that the Holy Spirit call to him to come back to God.
Jesus said
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
and
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
and Paul said

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You can turn your back on God, but He will never leave thee nor forsake thee.
Hebrews 13:5B ... for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

[Richard]

I'm sorry about your friend. I pray that the Holy Spirit call to him to come back to God.
Jesus said

and

and Paul said

You can turn your back on God, but He will never leave thee nor forsake thee.

You quoted alot of what I was going to say, but where in the Bible does it say that we can run away from God?

"I will never leave you nor forsake you."

If He will never leave us , how can we possibly leave him?

[mesue]

You quoted alot of what I was going to say, but where in the Bible does it say that we can run away from God?

"I will never leave you nor forsake you."

If He will never leave us , how can we possibly leave him?

We get angry at life and blame God. We think we leave Him.

[JPPT1974]

We get angry at life and blame God. We think we leave Him.

I get angry at life and blame God. But I stop short of blaming Him completely because I know He will never leave nor forsake me. As I have His son in my heart is all that matters!

[Free Gracer]

The facts of the matter are:

Jesus died 2000 years ago. All of our sin was yet future to His death and ALL of our sins were on Him.

We are saved by grace through faith apart from works. Grace wouldn't be grace if it couldn't be abused.

Works do not show whether one is saved or not. Remember the wolf in sheep's clothing? All outward appearances are of being a Christian.

Christians are capable of heinous sin. Yet God disciplines those He loves, and unrepentant Christians are liable to temporal judgements from God, up to and including physical death. And at the Bema of Christ (the judgement seat of Christ) such people will incur God's displeasure resulting in loss of reward, priviledge, role, and heirship in the kingdom of God.

The message of Christ is one of eternal security:

You shall never perish
You shall not come into condemnation
You shall be resurrected
You shall live forever
You shall never thirst
You shall never hunger
No one can pluck you out of My hand

If a person has not believed the message of Christ, which is eternal security, they have not believed the message of the gospel of Christ.

Antonio

http://www.faithalone.org

[MrJim]

Not all baptists believe in OSAS. The "never truly saved" arguement is lame. Ultimately it means you really can't trust anyone because they may not be saved and could just be someone being used by satan and living a lie. Maybe 90% of the "christians" you ever knew were faking it. Maybe that minister or teacher you learned under wasn't really saved. Maybe none of us are really saved. See where this line of thought leads?

And yet the OSAS are strong advocates of the "you can really know that you are saved". So you can "know" you are saved, and then really not be.:scratch:

[eldermike]

Not all baptists believe in OSAS. The "never truly saved" arguement is lame. Ultimately it means you really can't trust anyone because they may not be saved and could just be someone being used by satan and living a lie. Maybe 90% of the "christians" you ever knew were faking it. Maybe that minister or teacher you learned under wasn't really saved. Maybe none of us are really saved. See where this line of thought leads?

And yet the OSAS are strong advocates of the "you can really know that you are saved". So you can "know" you are saved, and then really not be.:scratch:





Are you saying that you are being taught by people that might get saved?

[MrJim]

Are you saying that you are being taught by people that might get saved?

The possibility is there according to OSAS. The preacher teaching Bible may not be saved at all even though he says he is. And since that may be, he's not indwelt with the Spirit and is teaching from the flesh...

Sounds to me since that "they were never saved to begin with" hangs out there the OSAS need to continually "work out their salvation with fear and trembling" just as much as the rest of us. Hey, everyone knows someone that "seemed" to be saved and backslid into perdition...examples abound.

[mesue]

...
And yet the OSAS are strong advocates of the "you can really know that you are saved". So you can "know" you are saved, and then really not be.:scratch:

I can really know that I'm saved, I can't really know that you are saved. I am not equipped to tell if someone with vast Biblical knowledge is saved.
Satan knows the Bible better than I, is he saved? God knows the heart. God knows my heart, I know my heart. I know I'm saved, but you can't know my heart.

[seebs]

In my experience, at least some people who think they know their hearts are wrong. I have been one before, and probably will again.

[mesue]

In my experience, at least some people who think they know their hearts are wrong. I have been one before, and probably will again.
Was it a period of doubt or guilt?
How can you not know your own heart?
Sometimes my head plays games with me, but not my heart.
My head will tell me that I deserve hell, I can't really believe that I am going to Heaven. I broke all 10 of the top ten commandments and probably 80% of the remaining 603. There's no way I'll ever enter into the joy of the Lord.
My heart says Jesus covered all of my sin with His blood. I am forgiven. I have called upon the name of the Lord and I am saved. Soon my head answers "Oh yeah, I did do that."

[seebs]

Was it a period of doubt or guilt?

Not particularly. Well, depending on how you define it, I'm currently probably about halfway through a period of doubt that started around the first time I used my lungs; I was made to be a skeptic.

But guilt? No.

How can you not know your own heart?

I have no idea. I merely know that sometimes when I think I know my heart on an issue, I later find that my views have changed.

I know many people who said all the same things you or I might say about faith, and a couple of years later, were not believers.

If they can be mistaken, then so can I.

My head will tell me that I deserve hell, I can't really believe that I am going to Heaven. I broke all 10 of the top ten commandments and probably 80% of the remaining 603. There's no way I'll ever enter into the joy of the Lord.

Then you should read Romans 8:38-39.

My heart says Jesus covered all of my sin with His blood. I am forgiven. I have called upon the name of the Lord and I am saved. Soon my head answers "Oh yeah, I did do that."

Cool.

But nonetheless, some people experience confidence and certainty about their state, then later realize they were wrong. I have more than once been quite sure I was genuinely in love when I just had a crush.

[JeffreyLloyd]

So are all of our sins forgiven the moment we become saved? Or do we still need to ask forgiveness for our sins after we are already saved?

[seebs]

So are all of our sins forgiven the moment we become saved? Or do we still need to ask forgiveness for our sins after we are already saved?

Le me give this the most definite answer I can: I have no idea.

I do not know whether or not I need to seek forgiveness for sins, or whether my Get Out Of Hell Free card works anyway.

I do know that it is very edifying to me to seek to understand my transgressions, and that a policy of seeking forgiveness helps me remember to do this.

[seebs]

Are you saying that you are being taught by people that might get saved?

I missed this question before. I have been taught a great deal by many people whose relationship to God is a pure mystery to me. I rely on the Spirit to show me the lessons they have for me. I know that there are people whose hostility to Christianity has not kept them from insights into the nature of love that I have found edifying.

[mesue]

... I have more than once been quite sure I was genuinely in love when I just had a crush.
That's because love, the life long marrying kind, is a decision. I have to decide daily to love my husband. Most days it's easy, because he's so likable. But somedays we just argue, like most married couples, I suppose. Love goes through stages like most people do. In the beginning it's more a "feeling" thing, then it grows into something more deeper. But with the growing comes growing pains. I think the same goes with our walk the Lord.

[MrJim]

I can really know that I'm saved, I can't really know that you are saved. I am not equipped to tell if someone with vast Biblical knowledge is saved.
Satan knows the Bible better than I, is he saved? God knows the heart. God knows my heart, I know my heart. I know I'm saved, but you can't know my heart.

Problem is that those no longer walking with God knew in their heart they were really saved too. One day you may be a statistic--another that was on fire for Christ and then turned away (God forbid:eek: ), but the point I'm getting at is that "they were never really saved to begin with" doesn't hold water.

[mesue]

Problem is that those no longer walking with God knew in their heart they were really saved too.
Or did they?

One day you may be a statistic--another that was on fire for Christ and then turned away (God forbid:eek: ),
doubtful. I was already an unbeliever.

[MbiaJc]

I caught up with a friend I knew back in High School. We were in the same bible study group together and went to the same baptist church. He, like myself was a hardcore Christian back then.

Now, today he is not a believer. He said he doesn't believe in God anymore. How does the doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" work for him?

I gave two extreme examples, just to see what it would be in those cases.

He was saved, he had Jesus in his life. We went door to door passing out tracts, if you'd have asked me 7 years ago was he "saved" I would have said of course he was.

I used to believe in OSAS when I was baptist, that's why I'm asking here :)

I am not the judge here, but let me give you some scripture. YOur friend is on some dangerous ground I think.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit. Heb 6:4 For itis impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


If he fits this bunch here I would say there is no need to pray for him.

As far as your two questions goes, David commited murder and was forgiven. He had to suffer the consiquences of his sins. However David never quit believing in God.

[ZiSunka]

I caught up with a friend I knew back in High School. We were in the same bible study group together and went to the same baptist church. He, like myself was a hardcore Christian back then.

Now, today he is not a believer. He said he doesn't believe in God anymore. How does the doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" work for him?

:)

A person who has saving faith in Christ perseveres in the faith. Although a person might fall away for a season, in their heart and mind, they are still a believer and follower of Christ, a person who looks to Christ to be his savior.

Someone who falls away and doesn't even believe in God anymore never knew God, never had saving faith in him, even if they went through all the motions of being a Christian and had zeal for Christianity. He never experienced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that makes it impossible to deny Christ.

Once you know true saving faith in Christ, you can never really not believe in him anymore because saving faith makes your heart and spirit alive through the indwelling of Christ. A person who leaves the faith and denies God never had new life at all.

[ZiSunka]

So are all of our sins forgiven the moment we become saved? Or do we still need to ask forgiveness for our sins after we are already saved?

It's different than you are thinking. You don't get saved because all your sins are wiped off the books, your sins get wiped off the books because of your saving faith in Christ that saves you. Our faith in God and Christ's atoning death is accounted to us as righteousness, that is, God sees us as being righteous because of our faith in Him, not because we repent all our sins. There is no need to make a laundry list of sins and repent them all one by one because forgiveness isn't what confers grace to us. God's mercy and acceptance of our faith in him is what confers grace to us. It's all God's doing, and not an achievement on our parts.

[JeffreyLloyd]

Thanks for your answers everyone!

[JPPT1974]

Problem is that those no longer walking with God knew in their heart they were really saved too. One day you may be a statistic--another that was on fire for Christ and then turned away (God forbid:eek: ), but the point I'm getting at is that "they were never really saved to begin with" doesn't hold water.

God will only turn you away if you didn't accept His one and only begotten Son into your heart and live as your Savior & Lord.