Need some help...

[Bushmaster78FS]

Dear folks,

I have great interest in the Orthodox church and early Christian history. This past Saturday I have attended my first Orthodox service on the military post I am stationed at, and I was really moved with this service. I am starting to believe that it might be the way I am called to follow. But I am quite ignorant much about the Orthodox church, except I discuss things about the early church with a Lutheran friend who also is in the decision process to become an Orthodox. If it is proper to introduce myself a little bit, I am of Turkish origin and serving in the US military, I was a person who confessed faith in Allah and Muhammad, and I have met Christianity in the US after meeting my wife. We go to a pentacostal church, so I can say I grew up in the protestant church in my Christian faith. I have attended many protestant churches in the service, I have this uneasy feeling, all these churches feel like they are pop psychology, make feel good places, I can't feel the worship, most of the time I look at my watch to see when the pastor's sermon will be over, or I get extremely bored or sleepy. I am just not happy. I felt this was not the way in the Orthodox service, everything was new to me and I was watching and observing in awe...

Here is the most important issue, my wife is strictly against it. I don't believe that Orthodox church introduced extra traditions rules etc since the beginning, I believe it is the way it was 2000 years ago, my wife believes Orthodoxy is equal to Roman Catholicism. I am afraid we will seperate our ways on sunday mornings. Recently when I was discussing with her to bring her overseas where I am stationed at on an unaccompanied tour, I raised the issue that I was told by our Orthodox priest, we might not get health benefits, then all of a sudden the phone cut off and I got rather a nasty email from her saying, You just best go back to your priest friend and make him cough up where he heard that news, you know if you do sign on for 2 more years there and I do move...........I'm not going to become some Orthodox church goer Christian.

My wife also accused me of trying to back to my roots in Islam that is why I am interested in Orthodoxy where everything is rules and traditions. She said "I understand you want to read about this stuff and all that. You are a very research, methodical orientated person. You come from a culture whose roots are in the Muslim religion..........in which is very ritual and tradition orientated (the religion itself.............you have to pray so many times a day and you have to say "Allah,.....when you pray with the prayer beads and more.........do you see a connection....what I mean? It's almost like I can see why you like this Orthodox stuff. It's very similar to Catholicism and Lutheranism. Very tradition..and methodical related. You research something to make sure it's exact. It's just your nature. But we are saved through grace. God's grace..........not through works or good deeds. Faith will produce works. Works and good deeds do not earn your salvation. It's by grace we are saved. Not traditions, chanting, etc. God put his Son on the cross to die for our sins. But I want you to know that I strong in my faith in Christ and I do not need to search out and try other beliefs. I do not feel I need to believe in these chants in church, kneeling....up down, up down, and the rosary and believing in Purgatory, and saying so many hail Marys, and praying for dead souls to go to Heaven, and OH YEAH...........the extra "books" the Catholics have in their Bible. Yeah........I don't feel like I need to believe in any of that, for which I know where my faith is already in Christ. God loves me for who I am and accepts me for who I am (by His grace I am saved).............not for what rituals I perform in church or my daily life. I will not let anyone make me doubt my faith anymore."

I wouldn't want to go separate churches with my wife as it is not good for the marriage but I love God and I want to go where I believe He is calling me.

I need some guidance and help, also prayers, later on, I will be visiting this forum more often and I will be asking questions.

[Dust and Ashes]

I will most definately be praying for you. :crosseo:

[repentant]

Yeah I wouldn't even know where to begin to help. The born again or protestant type are very hard to sway into Orthodoxy. But the first thing is she must understand, that orthodoxy and catholicism are not the same. We have the same 27 NT books as everyone else. And we don't believe in purgatory.

When you get the strictly by the bible types, who have no idea of Apostolic Traditiona, that believe everything is in the bible, and there is no need of an organized 'Church', it is very hard to talk to them. They think the bible is the only source of christianity. They don't realize what the bible actually says. It is just a guide and it clearly says to keep to the Traditions of the Church rather written or oral. Meaning they also taught orally. They don't realize that the epistles were written to already existing Churches. How did these Church's start, and what were they first told? The bible does not say. Also it is only a minute telling of the life of Christ, what about all the rest he taught? Didn't St. John at the end of his Gospel say that Jesus did and said so much, that even the world could not hold the books it would take to write it? So what happened to all this teaching of Christ and also all the other oral teachings Paul speaks of ? Were they lost? No, they are what the Apostolic Tradition is.

The scriptures also clearly show organization and structure of Churches, and also the appointment of Bishops and Elders.

It's sad to say, but these types are basically lost. Even my spiritual father says that you could perform a miracle in front of them and they still would not believe.

I suggest you follow your heart, because it is from God. I hate to say it, but don't let a woman come between you and salvation. I also hate to say this, but obviously you are not married in the orthodox Church, so divorce is also an option. I don't mean to sound mean, but I would never let a woman come between me and God, and talk of my Church that way.

Sala malako my brother..

[pilgrimtim]

I do not accept the idea the GOD impotent to change the heart of a protestant believer. But your wife see that you are very methodical and study alot. But I sense from her she lives from the heart. One thing that I am doing with my mother (a protestant) is reading stories of the saints with her. Every morning I read from the prologue of Ochrid. It has stories of Saint, and some reflection on the faith. I think slowly her heart is softening toward this strange faith.
I would encourage you to continue your journey to orthodoxy. GOD sees and knows you wife and this may be what she needs to find her way into the church. But I would speak of the fantastic stories in Orthodoxy. I would find the great quotes on repentance, faith, surrender. All those teaching are things she will accept. But the Orthodox go so much deeper in working through those ideas she may find somethings to turn over in heart.
It is not by arguement from history that you will help your wife find her way into the Church. By Love and experience.

[prodromos]

It is not by arguement from history that you will help your wife find her way into the Church. By Love and experience.
Pray, fast, and love your wife. She will eventually recognise something in you which she and her church lack.

John

[repentant]

What he is doing could work, but from my experience, it seldom does. Most protestants think that the stories of the saints are puffed up, or just immaginative stories, that never happened. It is hard to get them to believe.
But also like he said, you could be her guide to bring her to the Church, but I thought this once and it wasn't meant to be.
And the thing is, is that God does not come and change your mind, He wants you to, come to Him, through your own free will. So the gentleman here could be what God sends to this woman so that she may come to Him, but maybe not.
Also you must think of the problems having a non believing wife will cause. What about your kids? Who do they follow? You have to think of this as well.

Of course I wouldn't want you to divorce her, I was just saying what I would do in your situation. Of course I am "cradle" Orthodox, so I would never marry a non Orthodox in the first place.
What you can do is set up talks with a priest who can show her the beauty of Orthodoxy. Also has she been to Church with you? If not she should go.
Just some things to think about.

[xristos.anesti]

Love her like you never did before, and pray like you never did before... and it all comes to good to those who hope in God.

[elizabethevangeline]

Hi Bushmaster,
I'm in a similiar situation...but I'm the wife who is interested in Orthodoxy and my husband isn't so excited. (...so I have the worry about not being a "good submissive wife" and go where my husband says...:) ).

My 1st experience with Orthodoxy was when my best friend from college joined the church. I responded much like your wife did...very threatened by it, and concerned that my friend and I no longer had in common all that had previous been foundational in our friendship. 4 yrs later my heart was softened enough to really start considering Orthodoxy. Now my husband has had that same fear...that all we had in common is gone. So that is an important reassurance your wife might need...that there is still something you have in common.

Your wife is focused on God's grace. Maybe that's a place to start reading about Orthodox theology...on the Orthodox understanding of God's grace, and the wonder of the Incarnation. Also, you might read up on how the disciplines of the faith, the "works" are tools to help build and exercise faith...not a method to earn salvation. These things might be important points of discussion for you and your wife...to help clarify some assumptions and immediate areas of concern, ease some fears.

But mostly...like the others said, love your wife, be patient, slow to anger, and pray for guidance!, don't despair.

[e=mv^2]

Have her read some Narnia! Just kidding (kinda..) I am also in a similar situation. My wife and I were both raised as protestants. Now that I am considering Orhtodoxy she is not really excited. I am lucky that she is not militantly opposed to it tho (yet at least...)

Maybe those here could pray for those of us that are in a period of transition / considering a change? I sure would appreciate it. I think the others would as well.

[Marjorie]

Bushmaster, hang on in there! Pray, fast, talk to the priest, educate yourself... and everything else will be added freely unto you. What is your first name? And that of your wife? If you're not comfortable giving those, can I have first initials?

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Marjorie]

Have her read some Narnia! Just kidding (kinda..) I am also in a similar situation. My wife and I were both raised as protestants. Now that I am considering Orhtodoxy she is not really excited. I am lucky that she is not militantly opposed to it tho (yet at least...)

Maybe those here could pray for those of us that are in a period of transition / considering a change? I sure would appreciate it. I think the others would as well.

Of course! We love praying for inquirers/catechumens. I have been praying for 'e' but what is your first name, if you don't mind?

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[e=mv^2]

My first name is Rob, and thank you for your prayers.

[Xpycoctomos]

Pray, fast, and love your wife. She will eventually recognise something in you which she and her church lack.

John

I second this. Assure her that looking into Orthodoxy has only strengthened your Faith in Jesus as God and Savior and has only taken you further from Islam. Sure, it is true that Orthodoxy and Islam recognize that man is physical and that he can (and is supposed to) use his body to worship God, but there is no reason to talk about this. Talk to her about why we use icons (because we recognize that Christi really did become Man.. for real! and that because of this Nature and the physical reality of life is something that has been re-sanctified by God. THis is anything but Muslim theology). POint out the important differences between the relgions and point out how the fundamental beliefs that she holds (the Trinity, God is Love, God became Man, we saved only through Christ... not by any Saint, etc) are all present in Orthodoxy and have only helped reaffirm these beliefs you have held for the past few years.

A few things:
1)Don't push the Orthodox thing too much. Look out for your marriage and it's health. Your wife is scared because she sees someone she loves leaving that which is so precious to her for something she has be convinced is evil... that's scary!

2) Don't expect her to become Orthodox or try to push her in anyway. Just work towards making her comfortable with the idea that you looking at or becoming Orthodox is your way of strengthening the faith she introduced you to in the first place. Make sure she understands how grateful you are to her for telling you about Christ, the Trinity and all of that.

3) I am not married so please ignore anything I have said that you think might put your marriage at jeopardy. Just pray and fast and love her!

[rainbowbright]

Somehow, try to find a way to get her to go to church with you and then leave it up to the Holy Spirit. She really doesn't know anything about the church until she sees it for herself. But only the Holy Spirit can move her towards it --correct me if I'm wrong

[Xpycoctomos]

Somehow, try to find a way to get her to go to church with you and then leave it up to the Holy Spirit. She really doesn't know anything about the church until she sees it for herself. But only the Holy Spirit can move her towards it --correct me if I'm wrong

I believe that if He is busy there is a stipulation that allows me to step in to "Push people in the right direction" but being as humble and modest as I am, I hardly ever step in for this.

[Bushmaster78FS]

Thanks for all the responses, I need to go to bed since it is close to 0100 and I didn't get to check the forum today, I pretty much spent the whole day with a friend who also considers Orthodoxy and the new Orthodox Chaplain from my battalion. I am learning and learning. My name and wife's name is in my profile under the picture.

I kind of told my wife last night that I want to go to Orthodox church but also protestant services on post are nice, hinting that she can have her own way if she wanted, she told me that she wants us to go to church together and take our child together somewhere. Also Fr. Velez (my orthodox chaplain) mentioned that his wife was also in the same shoes, that kind of encouraged me that prayers and his attitude worked.

[pilgrimtim]

it appears to be normal for the womanto be slower in coming in to the Orthodox Faith

[Xpycoctomos]

Yes, although I often wonder if it's virtue or vice that tends to bring the man over to Orthodoxy first.

[e=mv^2]

There would be alot more converts if it were the other way around....

[ufonium2]

it appears to be normal for the womanto be slower in coming in to the Orthodox Faith

I think maybe it's because women tend to be more involved in (low church, at least) Protestant churches than do their husbands. At my parents' church, most of the men hang around outside and smoke during Sunday school, if they're there at all. Every administrative position is filled by a woman, and every Sunday school class is taught by a woman. I think this is pretty common in the Protestant churches, especially those that are emotionally oriented. Guys don't like to get all touchy-feely, as a general rule :sorry:

[Xpycoctomos]

I think maybe it's because women tend to be more involved in (low church, at least) Protestant churches than do their husbands. At my parents' church, most of the men hang around outside and smoke during Sunday school, if they're there at all. Every administrative position is filled by a woman, and every Sunday school class is taught by a woman. I think this is pretty common in the Protestant churches, especially those that are emotionally oriented. Guys don't like to get all touchy-feely, as a general rule :sorry:

I think you are on to something. Guys tend to get more into the theological analytical stuff and don't tend to look as much for the emotional connection (which comes sooner or later anyhow). To a lot of guys, if it is logical then, why not?! I have noticed with my fiancee in her journey toward the Church she was logically convinced a long time ago (and she is certainly a better analytical thinker than I am... I just "get into it" more than she does) but she needed a good deal of time to find that emotional connection to the Church. Us guys tend to think that is superfulous and unimportant... non-essential. I think many would have to disagree.

John

Disclaimer: to others who may not have picked up on it yet, these are blatant generalizations that we are talking about and I think we all understand that there are many men and many women who do not really fit into these categories. I personally am only speaking from my experience and the experience of my friends and their signifigant others. In all cases it was the guy who became Orthodox first and in all cases it is the women who is now just as devout or (from some aspects) even more devout (we men TEND to get hung up on the interesting theology junk). Just my observations.

[moses916]

There would be alot more converts if it were the other way around....

:D

[choirfiend]

Fiancee now, huh John? Congrats!! Many Years!!!

[Xpycoctomos]

Fiancee now, huh John? Congrats!! Many Years!!!

Thank you! The Wedding is now slateds for July 1st! :)