most unsaintly saint

[pjw]

who would be the most unsaintly orthodox saint?
i'm gathering samson, gideon, rahab, & others mentioned in heb. 11 are regarded as saints. so, perhaps samson would have to take that title? or maybe there's a new testament (i.e. after Christ) saint who is more unsaintly? although, of course, Samson is holy now.

[CFoxDWH]

Dracula would be a contender I bet, but I don't think he's canonical.

[gzt]

Vlad Tepes is not a saint.

[Moros]

A saint can not be unsaintly. This is an oxymoron. Do you mean which Orthodox saint is most unlikely to be a saint in our eyes?

A monk was telling me about a saint (I forget his name, perhaps someone here will know) who was a Roman comedian. His particular niche was parodying Christians. One of his acts was mocking the mystery of baptism. One day as he was performing, he immersed himself thrice (while making fun of the sacrament) and received the Holy Spirit instead of laughs (as his secular Roman audience didn't find it too amusing.) After that, he began a life of repentance and austerity as a devout Christian and a "fool-for-Christ" (someone here should define this term, I'm not sure how to explain), who was either martyred by the Roman elite which he formerly entertained, or lived out his days sharing the Good News, I forget which.

[Cappadocian]

St. Mary of Egypt -- former prostitute?
Rasputin -- Russian Orthodox Monk (not a saint).

[pjw]

no, i'm referring to the saint who lived the most unsaintly life AFTER being converted. the Bible speaks of the faith of sampson, so I was wondering if he was an Orthodox saint? if he is (he must be, if he's in heaven), then he must be the saint who lived the least saint-like life while on earth. of course, as with all saints in heaven, he is now holy.

[Orthodox Andrew]

St. Mary of Egypt -- former prostitute?
Rasputin -- Russian Orthodox Monk (not a saint).

Was he an actual Monk? I don't think so. I think people called him that because he looked like one. However, as far as I know, he was married.

[CFoxDWH]

Vlad Tepes is not a saint.
Isn't he a national Romanian saint? If not, he's at least got a folk following.

[Cappadocian]

Was he an actual Monk? I don't think so. I think people called him that because he looked like one. However, as far as I know, he was married.

Sounds sketchy:

It was while on one of his escapades that Rasputin was first impacted by the mystical powers of the Russian Orthodox religion. At Verkhoturye Monastery Rasputin was fascinated by a renegade sect within the Orthodox faith, the Skopsty. Followers of the Skopsty firmly believed that the only way to reach God was through sinful actions. Once the sin was committed and confessed, the penitent could achieve forgiveness. In reality, what the Skopsty upheld was to "sin to drive out sin." Rasputin, one of the biggest sinners of the province, was suddenly struck by the potential held by this theory. It was soon thereafter that the debauched, lecherous peasant adopted the robes of a monk, developed his own self-gratifying doctrines, traveled the country as a "staretz" and sinned to his heart's content.

http://www.eurohistory.com/Rasputin.html

[Orthodox Andrew]

Sounds sketchy:


It was while on one of his escapades that Rasputin was first impacted by the mystical powers of the Russian Orthodox religion. At Verkhoturye Monastery Rasputin was fascinated by a renegade sect within the Orthodox faith, the Skopsty. Followers of the Skopsty firmly believed that the only way to reach God was through sinful actions. Once the sin was committed and confessed, the penitent could achieve forgiveness. In reality, what the Skopsty upheld was to "sin to drive out sin." Rasputin, one of the biggest sinners of the province, was suddenly struck by the potential held by this theory. It was soon thereafter that the debauched, lecherous peasant adopted the robes of a monk, developed his own self-gratifying doctrines, traveled the country as a "staretz" and sinned to his heart's content.


http://www.eurohistory.com/Rasputin.htmlWell, I got my information on him from his A&E biography.

[gzt]

Um, no, he isn't, and I certainly hope he doesn't. He may be a folk hero for fighting hte Turks, but something is wrong if he's being venerated as a saint.

[CFoxDWH]

Um, no, he isn't, and I certainly hope he doesn't. He may be a folk hero for fighting hte Turks, but something is wrong if he's being venerated as a saint.
I could be wrong, I guess, it's just what I've heard from folks.

[gzt]

Well, rest assured: I don't make a habit of being wrong.

And as for Samson, he did end his days with style.

I might consider somebody with a spotted legacy, like St. Constantine...

[Marjorie]

St. Irene, too. I mean the Byzantine Empress. Great GRRL POWER! symbol but her life is definitely a bit spotty (if you believe various accounts.)

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[xristos.anesti]

Hm... tricky one...

Let's imagine that Ethiopians are right when they think of Pilate as an Orthodox Saint... in that case.. it would be him.

Otherwise... I don't know... The guy that invented pizza?!

[CFoxDWH]

Well, rest assured: I don't make a habit of being wrong.

And as for Samson, he did end his days with style.

I might consider somebody with a spotted legacy, like St. Constantine...
I believe you. Happy Birthday!

[Michael the Iconographer]

who would be the most unsaintly orthodox saint?
i'm gathering samson, gideon, rahab, & others mentioned in heb. 11 are regarded as saints. so, perhaps samson would have to take that title? or maybe there's a new testament (i.e. after Christ) saint who is more unsaintly? although, of course, Samson is holy now.

What do you mean unsaintly? Do you mean the one who the world would least guess was a saint? Please explain yourself.

[repentant]

What do you mean unsaintly? Do you mean the one who the world would least guess was a saint? Please explain yourself.

Yeah, what do you mean? People are saints because of the life they lead after they found Orthodoxy and Christ not before. So none of them could be called unsaintly.

[Philip]

Do you mean the one who the world would least guess was a saint?

If we are going with this meaning, I see only one possible answer: me.

[InnerPhyre]

Vlad Tepes is not a saint.

Whew. My heart skipped a beat when I read that lol. I'm glad he's not.

[The Prokeimenon!]

"Dracula" I think is popular for fighting the Turks, but I'm pretty sure nobody (canonical) venerates him as a saint.

Rasputin was not Orthodox. He was a member of a gnostic cult that emphasized wild sex and drunkeness. He may have looked Orthodox, or even been baptised Orthodox, but he wasn't Orthodox and is not venerated by any (canonical) group as a saint. (Though I wouldn't doubt that somewhere there's a "Ss Gregory & Vlad Orthodox Church" that belongs to no canonical group and venerates both of them as saints...)

Moses

[pjw]

i was talking about the orthodox saint who, in his 'christian' life, after conversion, had the most 'unchristian' behaviour. i don't know when samson was converted, but was just throwing up some suggestions.

[repentant]

i was talking about the orthodox saint who, in his 'christian' life, after conversion, had the most 'unchristian' behaviour. i don't know when samson was converted, but was just throwing up some suggestions.

I would say none. If they had un-Christian behavior, they would not be saints. But there are some, whom to the outside world seemed strange, or crazy, but you can't say the were un-Christian. They were just so full of grace or love for Christ, they seemed out there.

[prodromos]

"Dracula" I think is popular for fighting the Turks, but I'm pretty sure nobody (canonical) venerates him as a saint.
Vlad Tepes (Vlad the Impaler) is not held in high esteem, it is his grandfather Vlad Dracul (so named because he fought like a devil [dracul] against the Turks) who is considered a national hero, but not even he is considered a saint.

John

[The Prokeimenon!]

i was talking about the orthodox saint who, in his 'christian' life, after conversion, had the most 'unchristian' behaviour. i don't know when samson was converted, but was just throwing up some suggestions.

Any given Fool-for-Christ would fit this profile. A friend and I were talking recently about one (I forget who) who would go into Churches, blow out all the candles, and throw nuts at people. :D

Moses

[Michael the Iconographer]

i was talking about the orthodox saint who, in his 'christian' life, after conversion, had the most 'unchristian' behaviour. i don't know when samson was converted, but was just throwing up some suggestions.

What exactly is 'unchristian behavior'? Is there some stereotype that all Christians must fit to be considered a saint. The fools for Christ are a great example of this. Take St. Maximos the Hut Burner. Is pyromania a Christian quality? Yet he would occasionally set fire to hit hut, which was his only worldly possession other than his monastic habit, because he felt he was becoming too attached to it and wanted to make sure God was #1 in his life. The fools for Christ are a whole class of saints who like St. Maximos lived an unorthodox (do not read this as heretical, it is not capitalized) lifestyle in order to most fully live for Christ. To further this point I suggest you read the book by John Eldredge "Wild at Heart."

[Ioan cel Nou]

Vlad Tepes (Vlad the Impaler) is not held in high esteem, it is his grandfather Vlad Dracul (so named because he fought like a devil [dracul] against the Turks) who is considered a national hero, but not even he is considered a saint.

John

Not quite right, but I'm impressed that you know Vlad Dracul was Vlad Tepes's grandfather and even more impressed that you know what his nickname means and how he got it.

You're quite right that neither of the Vlads are saints (and certainly not Vlad Tepes - he made a political conversion to Roman Catholicism at one point, which shows you just how important Orthodoxy was to him!). Both are, however, folk heros, albeit that Vlad Tepes is also remembered for his cruelty. In any case, both are looked up to for their defense of Tara Romaneasca (Wallachia) against the various Turkish attempts to invade Europe. I have never, ever seen any signs of a cult of veneration for either Vlad as a saint and I seriously doubt that any such movement exists. If it did, you'd almost certainly see icons of them in the awful tourist shops that try to cash in on 'Dracula'. You don't, but you certainly see plenty of other trash.

There is a contemporary of Vlad Tepes who was his cousin, is a far more reknowned Romanian folk hero and is a saint, though, and it might be him that people are getting confused by. He is Stefan cel Mare (Stephen the Great), ruler of Moldova from 1457 to 1504. He was staunchly Orthodox, a massive patron of the Church (in fact, in this era he was about the only Orthodox ruler, Constantinople having fallen to the Turks and Russia to the Tartars) and was considered the protector of Orthodoxy. He donated a wonder working icon of St. George that had accompanied him into battle against the Turks to a monastery on Mt Athos, where it can still be seen, built almost 50 monasteries and churches (in thanks to God for each one of his victories), and was even recognised by the Pope with the title 'Athlete of Christ' despite not being Roman Catholic (and fighting the Hungarians and Poles on occasion). In addition to all this, he is my son's patron saint and his icon is what I use as my avatar.

James

[prodromos]

Not quite right, but I'm impressed that you know Vlad Dracul was Vlad Tepes's grandfather and even more impressed that you know what his nickname means and how he got it.
I got the information from you on OC.net ;) :D
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=1402.0

[prodromos]

BTW there is a church which supposedly contains the relics of one of the Vlads, purported to be Dracula's tomb. It is mentioned in the following blog. Just do a search in the page for Dracula or scroll down until you find it.

http://www.bookcase.com/~claudia/mt/archives/2004_10.html

[Ioan cel Nou]

I got the information from you on OC.net ;) :D
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=1402.0

Oh, OK. I never can remember who I've told these things to. It's because I get such a bee in my bonnet about westerners so often getting just about every detail wrong. And, of course, I post on far too many forums - which is probably why I spend less time here than I'd like to.

James

[Marjorie]

Also, Samson was never converted. He was Jewish all his life, as were almost all OT figures (excluding, like, Ruth.) Most of the saints were raised in the faith, like Samson. There are a lot of converts, though.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Ioan cel Nou]

BTW there is a church which supposedly contains the relics of one of the Vlads, purported to be Dracula's tomb. It is mentioned in the following blog. Just do a search in the page for Dracula or scroll down until you find it.

http://www.bookcase.com/~claudia/mt/archives/2004_10.html

Well I had heard that when they excavated the supposed tomb at Snagov it was empty. Who knows? Legends grow up around Stefan and Vlad in much the same way as they do for Alfred the Great or Harold Godwinson in England. To my knowledge, they have never identified Vlad Tepes's remains and I doubt they ever will. Of course, this does go to show that, unlike Stefan cel Mare, nobody was venerating him shortly after his death - everybody knows where Stefan's relics are - nobody knows where Vlad's body is.

James

[Teshi]

Well I had heard that when they excavated the supposed tomb at Snagov it was empty. Who knows? Legends grow up around Stefan and Vlad in much the same way as they do for Alfred the Great or Harold Godwinson in England. To my knowledge, they have never identified Vlad Tepes's remains and I doubt they ever will. Of course, this does go to show that, unlike Stefan cel Mare, nobody was venerating him shortly after his death - everybody knows where Stefan's relics are - nobody knows where Vlad's body is.

James

Did you just read The Historian? :D

I'd like to nominate St. Princess Olga of Kiev as one of the least saintly saints ever. She was kind of scary.

[pjw]

Also, Samson was never converted. He was Jewish all his life, as were almost all OT figures (excluding, like, Ruth.) Most of the saints were raised in the faith, like Samson. There are a lot of converts, though.
yes, but samson is mentioned in hebrews as having faith. therefore he is in heaven, which makes him an orthodox saint: right?? or have i gotten my definition wrong?
by 'unsaintly,' i mean the saint who least fits our stereotype of the perfect Christian saint. i realise that people are only saints by God's grace, but, in the normal person's thinking, a 'saint' is a person who lives a life like an angel. that idea probably comes from the roman catholic concept of saints, and that we aren't in heaven till we've either been through purgatory, or paid off all our sins in this life. i was just referring to any person who, when pll observed their behaviour, would not have guessed they were a saint.

[Moros]

Anybody know who I'm talking about?

[Xpycoctomos]

I've always been uncofortable with St Theodosius (or is he not a saint) being that, as i understand it, vast persecution of non-Christians in the Empire took place under his watch. But, I'm not sure if this is indirect or direct and I don't knwo all the ins and outs of this. St. COnstantine (As someone mentioned) is another and St Stefan was said to be quite cruel. I saw his grave in a monastery (or at least there was a large relic of his) in Romania and I just prayed for him. At the time I couldn't bring myself to see him as a Saint. But, I do trust the Church knows what she's doing... I also believe we do not have to ask every Saint for his or her intercessions. It's something I struggle with.

John

[Marjorie]

yes, but samson is mentioned in hebrews as having faith. therefore he is in heaven, which makes him an orthodox saint: right?? or have i gotten my definition wrong?
by 'unsaintly,' i mean the saint who least fits our stereotype of the perfect Christian saint. i realise that people are only saints by God's grace, but, in the normal person's thinking, a 'saint' is a person who lives a life like an angel. that idea probably comes from the roman catholic concept of saints, and that we aren't in heaven till we've either been through purgatory, or paid off all our sins in this life. i was just referring to any person who, when pll observed their behaviour, would not have guessed they were a saint.

Yes, of course he's a saint, as he is with God... but that doesn't require a conversion. He was just brought up in the faith and always was faithful.

A saint doesn't mean an angel. We're all sinners. Saints are just the ones who emptied themselves enough that we can see God in them. There are some in whom this is more apparent than others, but they are the ones that we know intercede for us before God. Others do too, but we can't be as sure of them.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[pjw]

A saint doesn't mean an angel. We're all sinners. Saints are just the ones who emptied themselves enough that we can see God in them. There are some in whom this is more apparent than others, but they are the ones that we know intercede for us before God. Others do too, but we can't be as sure of them.
i know a saint doesn't mean an angel, i'm referring to what pll normally think of as saints (i.e. led a Godly, caring life, healed people, gave to others, &c.) i was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions about which saint (i.e. person in heaven), would be least likely to be suspected as a genuine Christian in their life on earth. i guess it means more glory to God, who uses people we would never dream of.

[rainbowbright]

Was he an actual Monk? I don't think so. I think people called him that because he looked like one. However, as far as I know, he was married.
Rasputin was actually a part of a sectarian group and was not even close to being an Orthodox monk. He was called a Holy man because he was able to predict things and they would come true. However other ways of him trying to prove himself of his holiness was not in anyway Godly. He was married and had three children, but his wife allowed him to be nomadic and sleep with whomever he wished. I would recommend reading a book on him, I was surprised at how interesting his life was. But I also heard from a Russian at my church that everything written about his life is all composed of rumors and was not as bad as people think.

[Ioan cel Nou]

I've always been uncofortable with St Theodosius (or is he not a saint) being that, as i understand it, vast persecution of non-Christians in the Empire took place under his watch. But, I'm not sure if this is indirect or direct and I don't knwo all the ins and outs of this. St. COnstantine (As someone mentioned) is another and St Stefan was said to be quite cruel. I saw his grave in a monastery (or at least there was a large relic of his) in Romania and I just prayed for him. At the time I couldn't bring myself to see him as a Saint. But, I do trust the Church knows what she's doing... I also believe we do not have to ask every Saint for his or her intercessions. It's something I struggle with.

John

I would certainly dispute your idea of Stefan cel Mare being cruel and I don't doubt at all that he is a saint (or I wouldn't have had my son baptised in his name). In comparison to some modern rulers he may appear cruel, in that he did execute enemies (such as the boyars who assassinated his father), take away lands, basically bankrupting nobles and the like, but aren't we taught that rulers are given their authority by God? I think it's a strange thing to question whether a ruler is a saint because he doesn't quite live up to modern PC expectations when exercising that authority.

In actual fact, Stefan was extremely enlightened for his era. He raised loyal subjects to the ranks of the nobility in gratitude for their services, even when they were previously peasants, totally changed the political structure of the country to reign in the previously rapacious boyars who had caused a long period of civil war and usurpations (just look at the number of rulers of Moldova in the previous 50 years - it's unbelievable), avoided the sorts of bloodthirsty excesses that his cousin Vlad and other contemporary rulers indulged in, was an accomplished diplomat, using negotiation to secure Moldova at least as often as warfare, persecuted no minorities (not even Roman Catholics or Muslims) within Moldova, even when attacked by their co-religionists. He basically saved Moldova and guaranteed her remaining in the Orthodox faith. Not for nothing is there a saying that Stefan found Moldova a nation of clay but left it a nation of stone.

He also showed a rare humility for a medieval ruler when it came to his spiritual father St. Daniil Sihastru. In fact, it at times looks as though Daniil wielded almost as much power as Stefan, even though indirectly, through his advice to him. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that Stefan dedicated his entire life and labours to God and the Church and this, I would say, is enough for people to begin venerating him as a saint, which is precisely what happened very soon after his death. This is not to say that Stefan had no flaws - he did and some were pretty major weaknesses - but I don't think cruelty was one of them. In fact, I've never (before now) heard anyone complain that he was cruel at all. Hanging boyars for treason doesn't seem at all cruel when compared to contemporaries who impaled people for stealing food.

James

[xristos.anesti]

In comparison to some modern rulers he may appear cruel, in that he did execute enemies (such as the boyars who assassinated his father), take away lands, basically bankrupting nobles and the like, but aren't we taught that rulers are given their authority by God? I think it's a strange thing to question whether a ruler is a saint because he doesn't quite live up to modern PC expectations when exercising that authority.


:thumbsup:.

[Ioan cel Nou]

Further to my last reply, it's worth noting that the Church was extremely careful about recognising Stefan cel Mare as a saint. Despite his being popularly venerated from immediately after his death in 1504, he wasn't officially glorified by the Church of Romania until 1992 - some 488 years later!

James

[rafaeldaher]

I have a "icon" of Rasputin with the Tsarevich Alexy. :eek:

To me, this is a blasphemy.

I think that the defense of Rasputin is type of "wishfull thinking".

But, if someone whant to see this garbabe, send a private mensage here or in my e-mail.

[Cecilytwin]

I think threads like these are very dangerous. Who are we to judge esp. saints of all people?! We have no understanding of anything spiritual, and we dare to set ourselves up as deciding this saint or this saint is not quite a saint? Before judging these holy people whom God himself has revealed to us as examples, we should first look at ourselves and pray God will show us how far we are from their spiritual height.
Sts. Constantine and Olga brought hundreds of thousands of people to Christ, while we have not brought even ourselves.
May God forgive us for such presumption!

[moses916]

yeah i didn't think too much about this thread... well said Cecily! Lord have mercy on me :crosseo: