I've been thinking... With regards to conversion...

[88Devin07]

I've been thinking... Why not, instead of converting to Orthodoxy, can't I try to do some reforming in the Protestant Church? If I have the blessings of an Orthodox Father in doing it, then I could (if I end up not liking the Architecture field) go into seminary for my church, then when i'm a minister of a church, I could start changing things that are more in line with Orthodoxy. Then, when my parents die, I could officially convert to Orthodoxy.

I personally just don't want to hurt my parents by converting, my dad has had alcoholic problems in the past and I don't want to possibly risk causing him to fall back into that again.

I will ask Fr. John Troy about this BTW...

[gzt]

The thing is, you're either Orthodox or you're not. If you don't want to convert, that's fine, and you could be as much like Orthodox as you'd like. You wouldn't be Orthodox, but that's how it goes. If you do want to convert, I don't think it would be honest to become a minister in your current denomination and I don't think you could effect much change - and what would be the point of such change?

However, wishing to respect your parents may be a valid reason for delaying your conversion if you do decide to convert, but someday you've got to live your own life and you shouldn't have to wait until you are 60 to do so.

[Michael the Iconographer]

The thing is, you're either Orthodox or you're not. If you don't want to convert, that's fine, and you could be as much like Orthodox as you'd like. You wouldn't be Orthodox, but that's how it goes. If you do want to convert, I don't think it would be honest to become a minister in your current denomination and I don't think you could effect much change - and what would be the point of such change?

However, wishing to respect your parents may be a valid reason for delaying your conversion if you do decide to convert, but someday you've got to live your own life and you shouldn't have to wait until you are 60 to do so.

Darn rep nazis won't let me rep you again just yet.

[xristos.anesti]

Belive it or not, when it comes to adversity in the face of conversion issues, I would really suggest simple, good old faith.

Hm... wait... that is what I would suggest when it comes to anything... for, if you can worry and plan, calculate and think, and by it all change even a smallest thing - go for it...

The only thing I should worry about is the fact that every day I kill people around me, because I am I... and I is not good.

[Marjorie]

Even if every Protestant did and believed everything Orthodox do, it wouldn't be the Church until they were in communion with the Orthodox Church. Truth is communion.

The best thing you can do to help Protestants is to become Orthodox yourself and learn from the Church how to become holy. It's no good to 'infiltrate' some other belief system when you yourself are not in the communion of the Holy Spirit.

The first step to becoming Orthodox is being like a child and realizing that you don't just believe in the Church-- you NEED the Church. It's where God touches us.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[The Prokeimenon!]

Dear Devin,

What others have already said is enough. I'm certain Father would agree (though don't hesitate to ask.) I wanted to address this:

I personally just don't want to hurt my parents by converting, my dad has had alcoholic problems in the past and I don't want to possibly risk causing him to fall back into that again...

It's pretty common for children of alcoholics to blame themselves for their parents' problems. Your father's past drinking problem is his own problem. There is nothing that you can ever do that will either keep him sober or make him drink. It is his problem and his alone. Yes, the resulting behavior and consequences of drinking become everybody else's problem, but his decision is his own, and you CAN'T base your spirituality on whether or not it will cause him to drink. (I understand that this is just one factor, but I suppose if it's important enough to mention, then it deserves an answer.) You can help an alcoholic by encouraging him, keeping alcohol away from him, etc. But you can't do anything that will "push him over the edge" unless he makes a clear decision to go over the edge. If he wants an excuse to drink again, he'll find one regardless of what you do. Pray that he stays on the path of salvation/sobriety and continue to live your life.

I know you're well aware of what Christ said about loving family more than Him. And, believe me, I know how hard it is to know that you will deeply hurt your parents. I think it's wise to wait until you're off at college. But if God is leading you into The Church, you need to go where He leads you. In my experience, resisting God is much more painful and destructive than breaking your mother's heart.

Moses

[MariaRegina]

Dear Devin,

What others have already said is enough. I'm certain Father would agree (though don't hesitate to ask.) I wanted to address this:



It's pretty common for children of alcoholics to blame themselves for their parents' problems. Your father's past drinking problem is his own problem. There is nothing that you can ever do that will either keep him sober or make him drink. It is his problem and his alone. Yes, the resulting behavior and consequences of drinking become everybody else's problem, but his decision is his own, and you CAN'T base your spirituality on whether or not it will cause him to drink. (I understand that this is just one factor, but I suppose if it's important enough to mention, then it deserves an answer.) You can help an alcoholic by encouraging him, keeping alcohol away from him, etc. But you can't do anything that will "push him over the edge" unless he makes a clear decision to go over the edge. If he wants an excuse to drink again, he'll find one regardless of what you do. Pray that he stays on the path of salvation/sobriety and continue to live your life.

I know you're well aware of what Christ said about loving family more than Him. And, believe me, I know how hard it is to know that you will deeply hurt your parents. I think it's wise to wait until you're off at college. But if God is leading you into The Church, you need to go where He leads you. In my experience, resisting God is much more painful and destructive than breaking your mother's heart.

Moses


Excellent response, Moses.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MosestheBlack again.

Oh.Well.

[Cappadocian]

Even if a Protestant Church adopts all of our theology and all of our liturgy, and piety, and saints, and icons etc. etc. etc., it will still not have Apostolic Succession.

[Dust and Ashes]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MosestheBlack again.

Oh.Well.

Covered. :thumbsup:

[MariaRegina]

Covered. :thumbsup:

Thanks.

[MariaRegina]

As Bishop Basil has stated:

There are some who look like, smell like and sound like Orthodox Christians but they are not joined to us.

[Cappadocian]

The church is a mystical body -- the body of Christ, and it is contiguously joined. You don't have a living arm except that it be attached to the torso at the shoulder.

[The Prokeimenon!]

As Bishop Basil has stated:

There are some who look like, smell like and sound like Orthodox Christians but they are not joined to us.

I love Bishop BASIL! :liturgy:

Moses

[Michael the Iconographer]

Excellent response, Moses.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MosestheBlack again.

Oh.Well.

I just repped him for you! :D

[Michael the Iconographer]

As Bishop Basil has stated:

There are some who look like, smell like and sound like Orthodox Christians but they are not joined to us.

I have only met Bishop Basil once, but it was an awesome meeting! He is a great bishop and a very wise man!

[The Prokeimenon!]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Michael the Iconographer again.

Well- I keep trying to respond to your rep greetings, but the Nazis won't let me- so, hello! :wave:

Moses

[88Devin07]

I just thought, if I taught ppl the way Orthodox Priests run their services, then the people could be easily "converted" to Orthodoxy.

[Llauralin]

If you invited them to an Orthodox service they would find out how Orthodox priests run their services....

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Devin-

May I ask why you think your parents would be so upset about your desire to convert? Are they very strict members of their denomination?

You don't have to answer if it's not something you want to talk about, I was just wondering.

Pax tecum,
Rob :wave:

[MariaRegina]

I just thought, if I taught ppl the way Orthodox Priests run their services, then the people could be easily "converted" to Orthodoxy.

They would most likely tell you to find another pastorate and quick.

Several Protestant ministers dared to preach Orthodoxy and to change the style of worship ... they were given the quick boot ... and then converted to Orthodoxy themselves.

If you read the conversion stories available through Conciliar Press (and possibly Amazon.com) it would be very enlightening.

I enjoyed reading those stories when I was a catechumen. It gave me strength.

[Xpycoctomos]

Devin, my suggestion to you is, just keep exploring for the time being. A good rule of thumb (and understand this is not true for everyone, but IN GENERAL) is don't become a catcumen (on your own... it's different when it's entire families that convert) until you graduate high school. Just trust me on this one to at least give it some good thought. Don't worry about conversion for right now. Keep in touch with that priest from time to time, let him know how you're doing, try to incorporate orthdoox praxis into your life LITTLE by LITTLE (and practical about it).. ask questions, don't be afraid to doubt and deal with it, explore your parent's faith more, but most of all, use this time to pray and ask God to show you where you as a person need spiritual improvement (like, dealing with certain sins, gaining more patience, growing in humility etc). and then work on those things. Notice, I said nothing about praying to God about conversion. I'm not saying you shouldn't bring this up.. but that's one of those things that time will work out. Yes, it may come that one day you have to make that painful decision that you have to confront your parents and "come out of the closet so to speak" asbout becoming Orthodox.. that won't be easy.. but don't worry about that now. Who knows what God has in store for you and your family down the road. Don't worry about your conversion and especially not your parents.

By the way, chances are, if you do decide to do this when you are out on your own, your parents won't be completely surprised.. I mean, your mom already knows you want an icon and your parents have probably already seen your little prayer corner. you have probably asked them questions. If this contines liek so over then next few years... well... you're parents aren't dumb... even if they don't agree, they will have had time to adjust to the idea that you might not be DofC (is that your denomination) forever.

Just put it in God's hands and for right now worry about becoming a more Christian Devin.

Remember, this is a Journey, not an excursion... it's meant to take a long time :)

[88Devin07]

achem... my mom doesn't know I want an icon (never said that)... And they haven't seen my icon corner. I take down the icons and put them underneath the papers with my prayers on them. So all that is on the shelf are the crucifix's and the statue.

I'm just afraid because my mother gets her feelings hurt easily and she was brought up as a Methodist so she is a little more serious than my dad (But less so on theology and such). My Dad has always enjoyed telling me things about history and scripture and I've told Fr. John this, but converting to Orthodoxy would kill the only real oral connection I have with my dad.

[Xpycoctomos]

Okay.. then ignore that last part.. What I said I still stand by. Don't worry about conversion at your age. Dont even approach a priest about becoming a catecumen until you graduate and are on your own. Things just.. are different then. You see life and your parents and your independence differently then. That's all. For now jsut concentrate on being a better Christian, loving your parents, praying for them and incorporating Orthodox practice into your life where it makes sense, is practical and helps you in your relationship with God. Read Orthodox stuff in order to gain insight into your faith. Believe me, if you are destined to convert, you will in due time, and God will look over your relationship with your Father and your parents well-being. It won't be easy, but Christ only promised the opposite of easy.

John

[88Devin07]

I've contacted Fr. John Troy about this... Could you guys pray for him? He's told me he's been in bed since Wednesday