Toll House theory

[repentant]

What are some of your thoughts on the toll house theory. I think they exist in some way. The story of Theodora the disciple of St. Basil the Great, seems to be shared by alot of saints of the churchs. Well what do you all think?

IC XC
NI KA

[Llauralin]

Hmmm...there's a fairly extensive thread about that somewhere around here...I'll go see if I can find it....

I'd offer a comment, but really know absolutly nothing about this topic.

[Llauralin]

Here's (http://www.christianforums.com/t1803909-the-soul-after-death-by-fr-seraphim-rose.html) that one, if it helps.

[repentant]

thank you.

[choirfiend]

Hello, repentent...glad to see you're playing nice. This is a lovely community; welcome!

[repentant]

Hello, repentent...glad to see you're playing nice. This is a lovely community; welcome!

I was always nice. Thank you for welcoming me. I always liked what you had to say, I just disagreed with you on a few things.

[Maximus]

I have not yet read Fr. Seraphim Rose's book, so I am glad this thread is not about it but about the Toll House idea itself.

Although I am open to instruction, right now I do not accept the Toll House idea for a number of reasons. It does not seem to jive with Scripture or the early Fathers, and there is good reason to suspect that it has pagan origins.

We will be judged by God, not by demon "civil servants."

It is the fire of Love and Truth Himself that will purge us of our imperfections, not passage along a celestial version of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

[RobNJ]

There IS one Toll House theory that has almost universal acceptance:
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[Maximus]

I have put that one to the test on numerous occasions and have found it entirely satisfactory!

:yum:

[xristos.anesti]

The theory RobNJ has presented is not fullness of faith...



Thus I am presenting the other part of that theory:

http://www.tribalconnections.org/photos/glassofmilk150.jpg

[choirfiend]

lol :)

[Photini]

There is a book called Life After Death by Met. Hierotheos Vlachos that has a chapter about the customs houses. In it, he discusses the various early Church Fathers that supported this imagery and the various Saints through history as well. It's a great book, with great information (but it's sole focus is NOT the custom's houses).

[Michael the Iconographer]

The theory RobNJ has presented is not fullness of faith...



Thus I am presenting the other part of that theory:

http://www.tribalconnections.org/photos/glassofmilk150.jpg

Yes, how dare RobNJ suggest that you can have chocalate chip cookies without having a nice cold glass of milk to wash them down!! IS OUTRAGE!!

[RobNJ]

Yes, how dare RobNJ suggest that you can have chocalate chip cookies without having a nice cold glass of milk to wash them down!! IS OUTRAGE!!

Some of us dunk them in coffee, from time to time! ;)

[The Prokeimenon!]

Some of us dunk them in coffee, from time to time! ;)

This is valid, as long as the coffe contains creamer that is 51% milk :D

Moses

[Maximus]

There is a book called Life After Death by Met. Hierotheos Vlachos that has a chapter about the customs houses. In it, he discusses the various early Church Fathers that supported this imagery and the various Saints through history as well. It's a great book, with great information (but it's sole focus is NOT the custom's houses).

Are you sure the quotes in that book come from early Church Fathers? Most of the quotations I have seen used in support of Toll House theory come from some of the later theologians.

Please help me to understand what you mean by the word imagery, which you emphasized through the use of bold, italic type.

If Toll Houses do not literally exist, then what do they signify? The particular judgment?

How do they serve to help us understand it better?

If there are no real Toll Houses and no demon tax collectors, then why should we care about them?

[pravoslavno]

Dear all,

:cool:

I have the same opinion of the Father Michel Azkoul.

The toll house are a neo-Gnostic theory. I have much ternderlly and respect with the others books of Father Seraphim Rose, but i can't acept this teaching.

[pravoslavno]

If there are no real Toll Houses and no demon tax collectors, then why should we care about them?

:sorry:

I agree.

Indeed, i want to recomend this book: "Toll-House Myth: The Neo-Gnosticism of Fr. Seraphim Rose"; Father Michael Azkoul.

[Photini]

Are you sure the quotes in that book come from early Church Fathers? Most of the quotations I have seen used in support of Toll House theory come from some of the later theologians.

Please help me to understand what you mean by the word imagery, which you emphasized through the use of bold, italic type.

If Toll Houses do not literally exist, then what do they signify? The particular judgment?

How do they serve to help us understand it better?

If there are no real Toll Houses and no demon tax collectors, then why should we care about them?
Maximus, I stated my understanding of this in the last thread approaching this subject. I don't intend to get involved in it again. Yes, it was early Church Fathers, I am sure of that. All I have to say, is I accept the teaching, and have NEVER read Fr Seraphim's book.

[Cappadocian]

http://www.saintbarbara.org/images/about/ladder.jpg

The Tollhouse theory reminds me of the Ladder icon.

[repentant]

There are many saints and fathers like St. John Chrysostom, who have supported the toll houses. The life of St. Anthony the Great mentions them. Also St. Niphon a 4th century Bishop, who seen many things, including the spiritual warfare saw the toll houses. There are many other lives of the saints who mention it, Theophan the Recluse, Ephraim the Syrian, and John Klimakos mentions them in the Ladder of Divine Ascent. These are books I have personally read and that it why I mention them. St. John of San Franscisco and Shangei wrote a homily on the toll houses and mentions these saints and many others, including St. Basil the Great and St. John Chrysostom.

It is a way to describe the particular judgement, immediatly after our death. Where people get confused is they think the demons will judge us, and that is not the case. If you get accused of a crime, does the prosecuting attorney judge you? No he just shows the evidence. It is the same thing the demons show you your sins, and if they are many you can no longer ascend, and the Angels guiding you leave you in the hands of the demons. This is not eternal though, the second coming of Christ and the general judgement of man will be eternal. In between your particular judgement, and the second coming, the prayers of the church can save you. These were the tokens the angel had in the story of Theodora, they were the prayers of St. Basil the New.

Also some people think, it is maybe one last chance for the demons to tempt you. If you are pure in heart the demons and their passions look repulsive to you, like they did to Theodora, but if you are not pure and evil, they may entice you, but this is a secondaty opinion of the toll houses.

If people think this is heresy or a Gnostic teaching, then all of the saints who mentioned it were heretics and Gnostics, and this is not true, as they were glorified by God and the Church. Also when people debate this, they really show no other teachings on the subject of something besides toll houses. Their really is no other teaching on the subject, so when someone speaks against it, it is really their own opinions, unlike the peopel who teach it, who use the teachings of the sainst I mentioned and more.

[Cappadocian]

Seems to me that this is all speculation about matters that are beyond us.

[repentant]

Seems to me that this is all speculation about matters that are beyond us.

Well it is beyond us, but so is alot of things. But to say speculation I don't think fits either. All these saints saw this, or were told of it. So to say it's speculation, is to say their sainthood is speculation. And if we can't believe our saints, then where would we be. The Church was kept alive with the blood of our saints and martyrs. If we can't believe our own saints when we are already Orth. Christ. then how can we begin to convert unbelievers to the saving grace of the Church?

[Lacrimosus]

Toll houses sound suspiscious, but if they are indeed true, then there's your purgatory for you.

[repentant]

Toll houses sound suspiscious, but if they are indeed true, then there's your purgatory for you.

Not really, the Catholic belief in purgatory is a place of limbo that you go to from the time of your death, until the 2nd coming. The toll houses are diff. It is not a place you go, but a process you go through.

[Llauralin]

Not really, the Catholic belief in purgatory is a place of limbo that you go to from the time of your death, until the 2nd coming. The toll houses are diff. It is not a place you go, but a process you go through.
Untill the second coming? :scratch: I didn't think they believed that... I thought it was supposed to be for as long as it took for a person to become holy, and this could be longer or shorter depending on the person's sinfulness and the prayers of others.

But I could just be making that up, and have no clue what Catholics believe... it's been known to happen.

[seebs]

The theory RobNJ has presented is not fullness of faith...



Thus I am presenting the other part of that theory:

http://www.tribalconnections.org/photos/glassofmilk150.jpg

Have any of you guys considered popping into GA occasionally? After the 17th time someone's been bashed by posters with no sense of humor, I think they might find the approach some of the Orthodox take refreshing; both in terms of your theology and in terms of your ability to recognize that not all religious humor is "mocking God".

[seebs]

Untill the second coming? :scratch: I didn't think they believed that... I thought it was supposed to be for as long as it took for a person to become holy, and this could be longer or shorter depending on the person's sinfulness and the prayers of others.

But I could just be making that up, and have no clue what Catholics believe... it's been known to happen.

To the best of my knowledge, you have it right; it is the "refining fire", and time in purgatory is a function of your venial sins.

Presumably at least some people would go there even after the second coming, but this is pure speculation.

(Note: Not Catholic, just very interested in peoples' beliefs.)

[isshinwhat]

Untill the second coming? :scratch: I didn't think they believed that...

We don't.

I thought it was supposed to be for as long as it took for a person to become holy, and this could be longer or shorter depending on the person's sinfulness and the prayers of others.

Pretty much right on. Purgatory is a state of existence and is not what we properly call a "place." As Pope John Paul II said, "the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".

"Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]

Now I'll butt out and keep on learning.

God Bless,

Neal

[Joykins]

I haven't read the book but...it does seem to me that the "toll houses" bear some resemblance (even if only metaphorical) to the "life review" reported in some near-death experiences. Not that I know what that means, really. But it would make sense if some of the Saints saw the same kind of thing. I saw mention that the book did speak of near-death experiences, so I may be overstating the obvious.

[repentant]

Untill the second coming? :scratch: I didn't think they believed that... I thought it was supposed to be for as long as it took for a person to become holy, and this could be longer or shorter depending on the person's sinfulness and the prayers of others.

But I could just be making that up, and have no clue what Catholics believe... it's been known to happen.

Yeah it could be that, I don't know or care much about catholic teachings either. Anyway I was trying to show the difference.

[Michael the Iconographer]

http://www.saintbarbara.org/images/about/ladder.jpg

The Tollhouse theory reminds me of the Ladder icon.

The Icon of the Ladder of Divine Ascent does not in any way support the Tollhouse theory.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Some of us dunk them in coffee, from time to time! ;)

That works as well, too! But to suggest you can eat the cookies without a refreshing liquid such as coffee or milk is purely outrage!

[pravoslavno]

The Icon of the Ladder of Divine Ascent does not in any way support the Tollhouse theory.

I agree. The ladder are our live on earth.