excommunication/expulsion from the Church

[stuartjohngroser]

Greetings to you all in the Name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
I am a Catholic who has a Baptist friend whose father is a pastor.He recently got married in his village church to a Baptist girl from the neighbouring village where his father is the pastor.Shortly after that the other Baptist Church in his village complained to the Southern Tangkhul Naga Baptist Association about this marriage and orders were issued from them that my friend the pastor of the church that performed the marriage and my friend's father were to be expelled from the church.This has caused a lot of heartache to my friend and his father and the village church pastor who are all God-fearing people.The strange thing is that the girl,my friend's wife was not expelled at the same time.If there is anyone who can shed some light on this matter I would be very grateful as I am not.

[novcncy]

Greetings to you all in the Name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
I am a Catholic who has a Baptist friend whose father is a pastor.He recently got married in his village church to a Baptist girl from the neighbouring village where his father is the pastor.Shortly after that the other Baptist Church in his village complained to the Southern Tangkhul Naga Baptist Association about this marriage and orders were issued from them that my friend the pastor of the church that performed the marriage and my friend's father were to be expelled from the church.This has caused a lot of heartache to my friend and his father and the village church pastor who are all God-fearing people.The strange thing is that the girl,my friend's wife was not expelled at the same time.If there is anyone who can shed some light on this matter I would be very grateful as I am not.


That's not enough info. I'm pretty sure there's more to the story than that.

[daveleau]

I have never been involved in a situation where someone has been excluded from a church, thanks be to God. But, the topic has been discussed, and it is my understanding that a person must be approached by the church body and rebuked 3 times. If on the third attempt to bring the person away from the sin, the person can be excluded from participation in that church's fellowship. This does not have the same effect that I understand RCC excommunication has. This has no effect on a person's salvation, because that is between the person and God. The church helps people to grow in Christ, but cannot separate them from God (Rom 8:35-39).

I do not know enough of the situation here, so I cannot say whether this is correct or not. Your telling of it seems rash and based on some sort of bigotry. If that is the case, then this is not a Scriptural stance.

[mesue]

What country? What village?

[Crazy Liz]

This does not have the same effect that I understand RCC excommunication has. This has no effect on a person's salvation, because that is between the person and God.
It is my understanding that excommunication and anathema are two different things, WRT the "effect on a person's salvation." But I'm sure someone in OBOB could explain it better.

I know in the Orthodox church, excommunication only means exclusion from receiving the Eucharist for a given period of time, in an effort to bring about repentance. It happened to a few people I know. Several people were involved in the same offense, and all of them were excommunicated for 2 years, IIRC, except the one who had terminal cancer, because the church expressly DID NOT want to affect his salvation or his ability to worship during his final days. Excommunication can be lifted when a penitent is dying.

[arunma]

Mesue, Tangkhul Naga is in India.

[mesue]

Mesue, Tangkhul Naga is in India.

Thank you. :D

[arunma]

Greetings to you all in the Name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
I am a Catholic who has a Baptist friend whose father is a pastor.He recently got married in his village church to a Baptist girl from the neighbouring village where his father is the pastor.Shortly after that the other Baptist Church in his village complained to the Southern Tangkhul Naga Baptist Association about this marriage and orders were issued from them that my friend the pastor of the church that performed the marriage and my friend's father were to be expelled from the church.This has caused a lot of heartache to my friend and his father and the village church pastor who are all God-fearing people.The strange thing is that the girl,my friend's wife was not expelled at the same time.If there is anyone who can shed some light on this matter I would be very grateful as I am not.

I tried reading this post very carefully, but I'm not sure I fully grasp the situation. Further details would be appreciated.

I do know this much. Most Baptists will agree that excommunication is done for the benefit of the person who is excommunicated. It says, "For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow." (2 Corinthians 2:6-7). When we excommunicate a person from the church, after giving him many chances to repent, we do so in the hope that he will realize his error, and return to the church. Just as Christ forgave us while we were still sinners (Romans 5:8), so too must we forgive the excommunicated person.

It appears that your friend's father wasn't given a chance to repent. For that matter, it doesn't appear that he is even aware that he has committed any sin (if it can be said that he has sinned at all). This excommunication was not done in a proper Christian manner. And based on what little information you've given, it appears that the people involved shouldn't have been excommunicated at all.

Forgive me for sounding simplistic, but if this incident has taken place in the Naga Baptist church in India, then it doesn't surprise me that it revolves around a marriage. In fact, it sounds a lot like what happens in my extended family: boy marries the wrong girl, boy gets kicked out of family. Usually the girl was "wrong" because she wasn't educated enough, didn't provide the dowry, or just wasn't from the right caste. Believe it or not, some Christians in India still practice the caste system, because of the potent influence of Hindu idolatry in that country. It's possible that this might play some role (but you've given very little information, so this is all speculation).

I also feel compelled to say that much of the Nagaland Baptist Church has gone apostate, because the Church harbors many terrorists. There is an insurgency in Nagaland, and the NLFT (the local terrorist group) has ties to the Baptist Church in the area. Since the Indian Baptists in that area engage in violent practices which are contrary to the Gospel, it should not surprise us that the Naga church has also abandoned sound doctrine in other areas.

Once again, it would really help if you elaborate on this situation, because at the moment, I feel as if all my speculation is little more than shots in the dark.

[ZiSunka]

It does happen that a person can be expelled from a church for marrying a catholic if the church laws say that a member cannot marry outside their faith.

My father was excommunicated from his church when he married my catholic mother, but when my mom died 30 years later, the church readmitted him as a member.

Inter faith marriages can be difficult and have consequences. It is best to consider the consequences and to investigate the consequences before you marry anyone.

[arunma]

It does happen that a person can be expelled from a church for marrying a catholic if the church laws say that a member cannot marry outside their faith.

My father was excommunicated from his church when he married my catholic mother, but when my mom died 30 years later, the church readmitted him as a member.

Inter faith marriages can be difficult and have consequences. It is best to consider the consequences and to investigate the consequences before you marry anyone.

That's true. However, the Bible also tells us that if a Christian is married to an unbeliever, then the proper way to repent for that sin does not involve divorcing the person, since the Lord hates divorce. It doesn't make any sense for a church to correct marriage to a non-Christian with excommunication.

And Catholics aren't even non-Christians, so I'd consider your father's situation especially strange.

[ZiSunka]

That's true. However, the Bible also tells us that if a Christian is married to an unbeliever, then the proper way to repent for that sin does not involve divorcing the person, since the Lord hates divorce. It doesn't make any sense for a church to correct marriage to a non-Christian with excommunication.

And Catholics aren't even non-Christians, so I'd consider your father's situation especially strange.

No one asked my father to divorce my mother, they just told him he could not be a member of their congregation anymore. And, in most protestant circles, catholcism is considered a different religion. It's really just here at CF that catholicism is so graciously accepted by protestants. Very, very few protestant churches accept catholics as being in the same religion, and visa versa.

[Crazy Liz]

Greetings to you all in the Name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
I am a Catholic who has a Baptist friend whose father is a pastor.He recently got married in his village church to a Baptist girl from the neighbouring village where his father is the pastor.Shortly after that the other Baptist Church in his village complained to the Southern Tangkhul Naga Baptist Association about this marriage and orders were issued from them that my friend the pastor of the church that performed the marriage and my friend's father were to be expelled from the church.This has caused a lot of heartache to my friend and his father and the village church pastor who are all God-fearing people.The strange thing is that the girl,my friend's wife was not expelled at the same time.If there is anyone who can shed some light on this matter I would be very grateful as I am not.
Have you asked your friend the reasons given for the excommunication? Did they tell the people excommunicated what they had to do to get back in good standing?

Was it the first marriage for both of them? Did either of them have "unfinished business" WRT a sexual issue or relationship problem? Was one of them under some kind of church discipline before they married? Did the pastors know about it? Did the bride? Did the bride marry against her parents' wishes?

The information you have is very sketchy. If your friend can't tell you the reasons, there is little you or we can do to help explain it. There is another possibility. Your friend may know very well the answers to these questions, but may be embarrassed to tell you the details, even though he's willing to share the fact that it happened and he is upset about it.

[Crazy Liz]

Very, very few protestant churches accept catholics as being in the same religion, and visa versa.
When I was a kid, people used to ask, "Are you Christian or Catholic?" But I think things have changed a lot since then, thank God.

[ZiSunka]

When I was a kid, people used to ask, "Are you Christian or Catholic?" But I think things have changed a lot since then, thank God.

In some regions of the US maybe, but in most of the world, it's still an obvious issue.

How can a church that believes in salvation through grace by faith alone be the same faith as a church that believes in salvation through grace by performance of sacrements and sacrementals? It would seem that only those Westerners who see themselves as highly enlightened can say that both faiths can be true at the same time...

[arunma]

As far as I can tell, on paper Catholics believe in salvation by grace through faith. Unfortunately, in practice they tend to rely on the sacraments instead of faith. But if Catholics believe that unbelievers and idolaters can be saved, I'm curious as to how they could believe that a believing Christian may be condemned by not receiving the sacraments.

[ZiSunka]

As far as I can tell, on paper Catholics believe in salvation by grace through faith. Unfortunately, in practice they tend to rely on the sacraments instead of faith. But if Catholics believe that unbelievers and idolaters can be saved, I'm curious as to how they could believe that a believing Christian may be condemned by not receiving the sacraments.

:confused: confusing, isn't it.

[arunma]

:confused: confusing, isn't it.

It is. But I do wish Catholics would actually read their church traditions once in awhile. Much of it flies in the face of Roman Catholic doctrine. Tertullian, for example, advocated believer's baptism.

[novcncy]

It is. But I do wish Catholics would actually read their church traditions once in awhile. Much of it flies in the face of Roman Catholic doctrine. Tertullian, for example, advocated believer's baptism.

They're not the only ones. Did you know a majority of Mormon doctrine is directly against the Book of Mormon? The doctrine come from "revelations" to the prophet, and from another book, called "Doctrines and Covenants". It's amazing how the vast majority of Mormons are completely unaware of this contradiction. Anyway.....

[arunma]

They're not the only ones. Did you know a majority of Mormon doctrine is directly against the Book of Mormon? The doctrine come from "revelations" to the prophet, and from another book, called "Doctrines and Covenants". It's amazing how the vast majority of Mormons are completely unaware of this contradiction. Anyway.....

Yes, I know. I suppose that this is what happens when one creates a church whose doctrine can change with time. That's one reason I'm entirely in favor of sola scriptura.

[novcncy]

Yes, I know. I suppose that this is what happens when one creates a church whose doctrine can change with time. That's one reason I'm entirely in favor of sola scriptura.

^EXACTLY. :)

[Joykins]

As far as I can tell, on paper Catholics believe in salvation by grace through faith. Unfortunately, in practice they tend to rely on the sacraments instead of faith. But if Catholics believe that unbelievers and idolaters can be saved, I'm curious as to how they could believe that a believing Christian may be condemned by not receiving the sacraments.

To be entirely fair, my understanding is that Catholics believe that sacraments are conduits of divine grace , and therefore would not be in place of faith.

[stuartjohngroser]

Thanks to all those who replies to my message.To those who have asked for more information in this matter I would like to say that tomorrow at 05:30p.m.IST I will be checking in to CF and will have my friend with me he will be able to answer any and all questions raised in this matter.Thanks once again.God Bless You All.

[JPPT1974]

Thanks to all those who replies to my message.To those who have asked for more information in this matter I would like to say that tomorrow at 05:30p.m.IST I will be checking in to CF and will have my friend with me he will be able to answer any and all questions raised in this matter.Thanks once again.God Bless You All.

You are very welcome my friend. God bless you to. :groupray:

[stuartjohngroser]

Thanks for your reply,I too do not know much about the matter that's why I posted the message hoping that someone can enlighten me about what to do to help my friend.
I have never been involved in a situation where someone has been excluded from a church, thanks be to God. But, the topic has been discussed, and it is my understanding that a person must be approached by the church body and rebuked 3 times. If on the third attempt to bring the person away from the sin, the person can be excluded from participation in that church's fellowship. This does not have the same effect that I understand RCC excommunication has. This has no effect on a person's salvation, because that is between the person and God. The church helps people to grow in Christ, but cannot separate them from God (Rom 8:35-39).

I do not know enough of the situation here, so I cannot say whether this is correct or not. Your telling of it seems rash and based on some sort of bigotry. If that is the case, then this is not a Scriptural stance.

[12volt_man]

I have never been involved in a situation where someone has been excluded from a church, thanks be to God.

Good.

I've been there twice and a third time was narrowly avoided when the person chose to leave the church on his own.

It's ugly. Trust me, you don't want any part of it.

[JPPT1974]

Good.

I've been there twice and a third time was narrowly avoided when the person chose to leave the church on his own.

It's ugly. Trust me, you don't want any part of it.

Glad the person chose to leave the church on his own. Rather than someone else deciding for him. It does sound ugly indeed.

[novcncy]

Good.

I've been there twice and a third time was narrowly avoided when the person chose to leave the church on his own.

It's ugly. Trust me, you don't want any part of it.

Hmmm, I actually had the opposite experience. Person was disciplined from the church because he divorced his wife, had and affair, and married the other woman (not too sure of the order, but that's sort of irrelavent) At any rate, after a year or two, that man came before the church, confessed his sin, and asked the church to forgive him. If it's done Biblically, it's not ugly, it's God's plan.

[12volt_man]

Hmmm, I actually had the opposite experience. Person was disciplined from the church because he divorced his wife, had and affair, and married the other woman (not too sure of the order, but that's sort of irrelavent) At any rate, after a year or two, that man came before the church, confessed his sin, and asked the church to forgive him. If it's done Biblically, it's not ugly, it's God's plan.

This was done Biblically.

[arunma]

Hmmm, I actually had the opposite experience. Person was disciplined from the church because he divorced his wife, had and affair, and married the other woman (not too sure of the order, but that's sort of irrelavent) At any rate, after a year or two, that man came before the church, confessed his sin, and asked the church to forgive him. If it's done Biblically, it's not ugly, it's God's plan.

That's an excellent testimony to the wisdom of God's ways.

By the way Stuart, any new information on your friends?