eternal security, yea or ney?

[sola fide]

I just wanted to see some Scriptural opinions on this topic. Do you believe that it is possible for a person to lose their salvation, based on Scripture?

Soli Deo gloria!

[Blessed-one]

there's a verse in the NT where Jesus was saying how in the end days, some "Christians" cry out to God, yet God said he's never known them.

The thing, you don't know whether you're saved, maybe it's not at the point of baptism, maybe it's not when you decide not to criticise others, only God knows when it is that your saved.

[Andrew]

Nope you can never unborn yourself. If you want scripture proof it's all here :)

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/eternalsecurity.html


quote: "The thing, you don't know whether you're saved, maybe it's not at the point of baptism, maybe it's not when you decide not to criticise others, only God knows when it is that your saved."

that's purely unbiblical! How can one not know?

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

You will know in your spirit whether you are a child of God or not.

[Blessed-one]

i was thinking in the line of OSAS. If one's "saved" and later from his actions and words, others reckon that he's not saved, with he himself not even sure, or maybe to the point that he rejects God, so was he saved at the beginning?

please don't respond to this post, i don't want to start another debate on OSAS.

[Andrew]

Who cares what "others reckon"? Once you are saved you are saved, according to the Word and Spirit. :)

[hobart schmedly]

Fellowship and Relationship

(This post actually deals with numerous issues including OSAS, two kinds of life, the difference between fellowship and relationship, and why Christians are sick and cannot receive their healing. They are all intertwined and so the post is a little long.)

A theological battle has been raging in the church for hundreds of years. This is the battle over the concept of the "security of the believer". Some call it "once saved, always saved".

Many years ago, I worked the evening shift at a local plant. I would get off work after midnight, and because I had no vehicle, I would walk a mile home in the dark. It was during one of these walks that the Lord began to speak to me about the difference between relationship and fellowship.

There are two kinds of life (and death) spoken of in the Bible. There is physical life (and death) , and spiritual life (and death) . Physical life is life in the body. When you die physically, your spirit leaves your body, for "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Spiritual death means you have the fallen nature of the devil in your spirit. All men are spiritually dead from the day they are born. When a person is born again, that old dead spirit is removed, and the living new spirit of Christ is placed in you!

There are two kinds of sin for the new testament Christian. There is "sin unto death", and "sin not unto death". The sin unto death is the sin "after the similitude of Adam", that causes one to die spiritually, and results in a loss of relationship with the Father. Sin not unto death is sin that does not cause you to die spiritually, but does cause you to lose fellowship, and may eventually result in a judgment against you, leading to physical death.

1 John 5
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Let me paraphrase and emphasize these verses for clarities sake:

1 John 5 (Hobie paraphrase)

16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto (spiritual) death, he shall ask, and he shall give him (physical) life for them that sin not unto (spiritual) death. There is sin unto (spiritual) death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is sin not unto (spiritual) death.

With this, you can see the two kinds of sin, life, and death being discussed.

The reason I am bringing this out, is to show you that you do not lose your eternal life with every sin you commit. All unrighteousness is sin, and has a price. But that price is not always spiritual death. Most sin is sin not unto spiritual death. This sort of sin causes a break in fellowship with God, but not relationship. To fellowship means to partake of the cup together. It means to share of food with each other at the same table. When you sin a sin not unto spiritual death, you remain born again but you will be out of fellowship with God, and not be able to partake of the benefits of His table. You must restore fellowship with Him at once. Failure to repent and restore fellowship can lead to mental and physical sickness, problems in your life and family, and even physical death!

The above passage from 1 John shows that we should pray for our brother who we see has sinned a sin not unto spiritual death. If we pray for Him, our intercession on his behalf can actually save him from physical death! But John goes on to say that we should not pray for the man who sins a sin unto spiritual death. To do so is a waste of time. The one who has sinned a sin unto spiritual death is spiritually dead, and beyond the reach of our prayers to restore him. He has cast off Jesus and God and denied the Gospel. He is a child of satan again, and we cannot overrule his decision by our prayers anymore than we could pray to have any sinner born again against their will.

Lets Look at a few more passages to bring out and confirm this truth further.

Look at what Paul said about the sowing of the flesh, and where we would reap the corruption:

Galatians 6
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

"...he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.."

You are going to pay for unconfessed sins of the flesh by the corruption of your flesh. This is why John said to pray for those who you see sinning sins of the flesh. You can save them from that corruption. The words say that the Lord will "...give them life ...".(1 John 5:16)

Look at another of Paul's references:

1 Corinthians 5
1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed, {judged: or, determined}
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Here we have a man who was sinning a grievous sin. He was engaging in sexual relations with his father's wife (it does not specify if it was actually his own mother, it may have been a step mother). Could this man still be "saved", or born again?!! Paul states that the man is "among you", opposed to being "among the Gentiles". Paul further says that the man "might be taken away from among you", showing that the man had not yet been taken from among them. But the main point here is that the man was to be "delivered unto satan for the destruction of the flesh...". Why? So "that the spirit be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".!!! This man's spirit was still saved, but because he was in danger of eventually denying Christ in preference to his sin, it was better that he be delivered to satan; not for the destruction of his spirit, but for the destruction of his flesh. It would be better that he die physically while in a saved condition than to continue to live in, and be hardened by sin, and eventually deny the Lord.

We see similar wording in to Timothy:

1 Timothy 1
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

These men were actually into some sort of false doctrine, and were in the same danger as the above mentioned fornicator because of it.

Look at something Jesus said:

Luke 13
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Note that Jesus said these men were not sinners beyond anyone else. He also says that the tragedy they suffered was a result of their sin. He also said that if we do not repent of our sin, we could likewise perish. The "likewise" perish was physical death. Nothing is said about hell or the condition of their spirits. If fact, Jesus specifically says they were no worse than anyone else. It is conceivable that there may have been righteous men among them! But Jesus said that if we do not repent of our sin, we would suffer, and even lose our physical lives. "Ye shall all likewise perish", i.e. you will suffer physical death. Yes, there is a hell, and there will unfortunately be many in it. But not all sin condemns you to hell. Not all sin causes you to lose your spiritual life.

I am trying to bring you to the place where you see the love of the Father for you. The prodigal son who left his Father and ended up eating pig food never ceased to be his Father's son. When he finally repented and went home, the Father was waiting for him with open arms. When we sin, we leave the banqueting table of the Father and eat pigs food. Sin has it's own punishments. The Father waits for you, hunting your silhouette on the horizon. He is not angry with you, nor will He cast you out for your weakness. He waits for your return. (Jesus, however, may have a few words with you about your conduct toward Himself and the Father, if you will humble yourself and listen! This is the chastisement that you need if you are to learn how to conduct yourself in the household of God.)

I want you to understand that He is on your side. He wants you to be victorious and overcome. He is cheering you on, and moving at every opportunity you give Him to act on your behalf. His is not waiting with a big flyswatter, drawn back ready to smack you at the first sign of weakness. He is not against you. He is like any earthly father who watches his children grow up. They fall, and pick themselves up, only to fall again. The father is there to help them up and heal their wounds. But he cannot walk for them. He cannot learn the lessons for them. He is saddened when they fail. He is disappointed when they fall short. But he does not turn his back on them. He does not disown them when they need him the most. Our Heavenly Father is infinitely better than any earthly father.

What does this have to do with overcoming sin and never sinning again? You need to understand that your Heavenly Father is on your side, even when you sin a sin not unto death. He is there ready to forgive and accept you back into fellowship with Him. He wants you seated at the table with Him where you belong! Sinning a sin not unto death breaks your fellowship, but does not break your relationship.

DO NOT LET FAILURE KEEP YOU AWAY FROM THE THRONE OF GRACE!

It is when you fail that you need Him the most!!!

Much of the teaching today has you running to the woods to hide like a servant who go caught with his hands in the coin box. It is when you sin that you need Him! It is when you sin that you have need of His mercy, not when you are righteous!

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

He is telling you to come boldly unto the throne of grace when you have sinned! You do not need grace, mercy, and help when you are walking in the light of righteousness! This is the place of those who have sinned, and are in need of mercy and grace. This is a departure from common theology. Most teach that when you sin, you are lost, and cannot approach God. This is saying that not only can you approach, but you can approach BOLDLY! God is on your side, and wants you to come to Him when you fail. Do not hide your face from Him, which would be the natural thing to do.

There are two things we are dealing with: relationship and fellowship. Sin not unto death breaks fellowship with God, and results in loss of "physical life" blessings. Sin unto death breaks relationship with God, and results in loss of eternal life.

If you sin a sin not unto death, you should immediately repent and confess your sin. This restores your fellowship and restores your access to the "physical life" benefits. Realize that God is on your side, and wants you restored

[Andrew]

Just some comments hobie,

"All men are spiritually dead from the day they are born."

It is said (and I believe it) that babies are spiritually alive. and that shld they die, they go to heaven. however, when a child comes to the age of accountability, he dies spiritually. those who believe this make ref to Paul's statement: "I was once alive then I died." surely he cld not have been refering to physical death. but this is not to deny that the sin nature is present in the baby.

the other thing is this. wld you agree that when a Christian starts to sin the sin unto spiritual death, and eventually renounce/deny Christ, that he is not making self-contained decisions -- ie the devil has a big part to play all the way, right from the start? I dont believe a born again Christian will just out of the blue decide to deny Christ on his own without any prompting/temptations from the devil.

So if this Christian loses his salvation, doesn't it mean the devil has suceeded in plucking him out of God's hand, Jesus' hand, and breaking the seal of the Holy Spirit? Doesnt it mean that the devil has succeeded in separating this Christian from the love of God, becos now he is in hell? Yet Paul says that nothing -- not even principalities or powers -- can sep us from the love of God.

i think we do agree that 'ordinary' sinning cannot cause us to lose salvation. the quest is more one of renouncing Christ. If a person renounces Christ, i doubt he was ever saved in the first place.

[tericl2]

Very good post Andrew!! My thoughts exactly. What is really at issue here is the matter of TRUE salvation. Only God knows our hearts. I would urge anyone reading this that claims to be Christian but has no evidentiary works or desire to further God's kingdom to search your heart deeply. You may be one of those supposed "christians" that get to the judgement throne only to stutter, "but, I thought we were buddies!!".

Even the "demons believe and shudder". It is not a head belief that saves you. Search your hearts, for it must be a belief born in the heart to save you. At that moment you will be reborn in spirit, never to be the same again. Even when you may be sinning and not have full confidence in your mind of your salvation, you will still know in your heart, and your heart (by the Spirit) will be puling you back to God. You won't be able to ever be happy while doing wrong. If you can be happy while doing wrong - you most likely are not saved. Many will think they have salvation but will find out they never gave lordship of their lives to Jesus.

Believe on Him. Confess that He is the LORD and Master of your life. Ask Jesus to change you and you will be changed and set free!! It will be the most wonderful beginning to a wonderful new life in Christ's love!!

In His Hands :bow:

[Thunderchild]

It is simple enough. For those who endure and remain faithful, salvation is assured.

[isshinwhat]

Romans 11:20-23

Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

First, notice that Paul is addressing those who stand by faith: Christians who have an active faith in Christ. He warns them not to use the life they have been given, their free gift of grace, as an excuse to sin, lest through their actions they deny God and slip into unbelief.

A denial of God doesn't have to be a mental assertion, it can be a physical one as well. A man who lives like there is no God denies his Father, even if he was once an adopted child, a brother of Christ. This is what Paul was talking about in Galatians 5:1-6.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Notice again Paul is speaking to believers, people like himself who have been "made free". Paul cautions them not to submit again to the yoke of slavery which had bound them, warning that if they do, they will be estranged from Christ; He will profit them nothing; they will fall from grace. To be estranged from someone, one must have first had a relationship with that person. That is what Paul taught in Romans 11, as well. We have to remain in Gods's goodness. How do we do this?  Through having a "faith [in Christ] working through love."

Some say Paul was calling out only the Christian Judaizers in this passage, but we can see from Galatians 5:7 that Paul was not so much concerned with what their particular sin was, only that they were not being obedient to God: "You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?" Paul wanted them to be obedient to Him that had become their Father. He goes on in verse 13 to again warn his brothers and sisters to not abuse their freedom, and in verses 19-21 enumerates certain other sins which could cause them to fall from grace.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I agree with Thunderchild, we must persevere in the Faith, trusting Christ that he will give us all that we need to persevere. He will not abandon us, but sadly, we can abandon him.

God Bless,

Neal

[Loser For Jesus]

Luke 8:13
Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Notice:
[1] They are "believers" for a "while."
[2] In the time of "testing," they "fall away."

Jesus said a person could believe for a while and then fall away. It doesn't get much clearer than that. Anyone want to argue with Jesus and say He was wrong?

love in Christ,

Malcolm

[Andrew]

"He will not abandon us, but sadly, we can abandon him."

hmmm i dont think so....

Christians who believe that salvation can be lost generally agree that there are many clear verses in the Bible that support eternal security. However, they draw the line when it comes to a Christian wilfully renouncing Christ. In other words, these same verses don't "cover" the Christian who decides to give up Christ.

But which true-blue, born-again Christian would, in his right mind, suddenly decide to renounce Christ? Surely, it must be a temptation of the devil, a demonic influence. It cannot be a self-contained decision.

This being the case, let's suppose that a Christian does renounce Christ and "lose his salvation". This would mean that the "demons" and "powers" responsible for influencing him into rejecting Christ have succeeded in separating him from the love of God. This scenario, however, contradicts Romans 8:38-39.

Romans 8:
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

He is faithful, not us

Many Christians think that after they are saved, they have to work at keeping their salvation, or they might lose it. This is really no different from trying to earn salvation, which can only be received by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

If we have to do certain things to keep our salvation, then salvation is simply not free. This contradicts Romans 5:15-18 and Romans 6:23, which say that salvation is God's free gift to us. It is free for us but it cost God His darling Son.

Think of it this way: When someone gives you a Christmas gift, do you receive it and then tell him, "Okay, how much do I owe you?" The person will be hurt, if not, offended.

Now, suppose you open up the gift only to find half of it. The giver then tells you, "You'll have to work for the other half." And we think our heavenly Father is like that!

We began in grace, and it is grace that will lead us home, not our performance.

Galatians 3:3 -- Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Christians are also foolish to think that they have the power to "maintain" their salvation. They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). It is God who keeps them saved. It is God who is always faithful, not them.

Philippians 1:6 [NIV] -- being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

In the above verse, we are even exhorted to be confident (not unsure) of the fact that it is Jesus (not us), who will definitely bring the good work begun in us to completion.

There are so many other verses that assure us that God is the one who keeps us saved, such as:

Romans 14:4 -- Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

1 Corinthians 1:8 -- He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

1 Corinthians 10:13 -- No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

2 Corinthians 1:21 -- Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.

Philippians 2:13 -- for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

2 Thessalonians 3:3 -- But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.

2 Timothy 4:18 -- The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 2:18 -- Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Hebrews 7:25 -- Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Jude 1:24 -- To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy--

[Thunderchild]

My goodness. Nearly fell off my chair - Someone actually agrees with something I said. hmmm. Did I get it wrong?

Thankee Neal.

[Miss Shelby]

Andrew:

This being the case, let's suppose that a Christian does renounce Christ and "lose his salvation". This would mean that the "demons" and "powers" responsible for influencing him into rejecting Christ have succeeded in separating him from the love of God. This scenario, however, contradicts Romans 8:38-39.

Romans 8:
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Did God not love us before we were saved? Does he not love the 'unsaved' or the lost? I don't see how this verse pertains to salvation.

Michelle

[Thunderchild]

Some will believe for a time and then fall away. Simple - direct - no way to avoid the implications. Of Judas - Jesus said to the Father "Of those you have given me, none has been lost except that son of perdition." Simple - direct - no way to avoid the implications.

Against these simple and direct statements, convoluted reasonings based on other passages are advanced to show that these simple direct statements are nothing worth.

Nothing can separate us from God's love for us? OK - regardless of what we do, God loves us - his love is unconditional. Accepted. "For while we were yet sinners, God commended his love for us." I am sure that most will have observed that God doesn't play favourites when it comes to loving people - he won't stop loving us because we sin. Indeed, he will warp Heaven and Earth themselves if it will serve to save a single person - did he not even allow the sacrifice of his only begotten son to enable salvation to be available to all? Certainly - but are all saved? In terms of the possibility of losing salvation, the passages showing that we cannot be separated from God's love DO NOT show that we cannot lose salvation.

But which true-blue, born-again Christian would, in his right mind, suddenly decide to renounce Christ? Surely, it must be a temptation of the devil, a demonic influence. It cannot be a self-contained decision. Name one!? Ahhhmmmm .... Judas Iscariot? Oh that's right, he was lost, so that means he could never have been saved in the first place. OK. Which true-blue apostle in his right mind would suddenly decide to renounce Christ? Surely it must be a temptation of the devil, a demonic influence. It cannot be a self contained decision. Ahhhmmmmmm .... I know, I know .... PETER! Oh, and James, and John, and all the other apostles too. (they ran away when Jesus was arrested.) About the only difference between any of them and Judas is that they repented. Temptation of the devil? Demonic influence? But which true-blue, born-again Christian would, in his right mind, suddenly decide to renounce Christ? Surely, it must be a temptation of the devil, a demonic influence. It cannot be a self-contained decision.
James 1:14 - 16 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Mark 4:18 - 19 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
Yes. I can see how all of that is a demonic influence.

[hobart schmedly]

"Some will believe for a time and then fall away. Simple - direct - no way to avoid the implications. Of Judas - Jesus said to the Father "Of those you have given me, none has been lost except that son of perdition." Simple - direct - no way to avoid the implications."

There is one very big difference between the believers Jesus was talking to during His ministry and believers today. They were not born again children of God. No-one was born again until after the resurrection. So it is really like comparing apples and oranges. They were still OT. We are not.

[hobart schmedly]

But which true-blue, born-again Christian would, in his right mind, suddenly decide to renounce Christ? Surely, it must be a temptation of the devil, a demonic influence. It cannot be a self-contained decision.

It must be remembered that these statements: confessing and denying Christ , have to be from the heart . A person may confess Jesus as lord out of his mind as an act of mental assent. This is not saving faith. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Mechanical statements are meaningless.
This is also true about denials. They too have to be from the heart.
Coupled this together with:

1 John 4:
2 The test by which you may recognize the Spirit of God is that every spirit which acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come as man is from God,
3 and that no spirit is from God which does not acknowledge this about Jesus. Such is the spirit of the anti-Christ; of whose coming you have heard, and it is already in the world.

How could a child of God speak these words of denial? They could not.
Your spirit would have to believe it, and these verses say you spirit cannot do that. So it is not a matter of being in your "right mind." It is a matter of being in your "right spirit."

[Andrew]

Michelle,

My point is simply this: I cant for a moment believe that an "ex-Christian" (if there's such a thing) burning and screaming in pain in hell is still basking in the love of God and enjoying the Father-son relationship. To me its commons sense he's been separated from the love of God -- which contradicts Rom 8:38-39

"Name one!? Ahhhmmmm .... Judas Iscariot?"

Judas was a true-blue, born-again Christian? hmmm that's new, considering that the church was only born on Pentecost. Also, Judas never addressed Jesus as Lord.

quote:"How could a child of God speak these words of denial? They could not.
Your spirit would have to believe it, and these verses say you spirit cannot do that. So it is not a matter of being in your "right mind." It is a matter of being in your "right spirit."

get your point Hobie. agreed. so wld u say it still boils down to whether a person's really saved? ie a truly born-again Christian will never deny Christ from his heart.

[Andrew]

Predestination implies eternal security

Paul talks about predestination in Romans and Ephesians.

Romans 8:
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Predestination simply says that God, in His foreknowledge, knew who would accept His Son and who would not. He then predestinated those who would believe in Jesus Christ to be saved and glorified.

Predestination is beautiful because it says that it was God's will, love and pleasure to save us. He did not do it reluctantly. Neither was God's salvation plan a "last-minute" thing or afterthought. No, God predestined us to be saved even before the creation of the world!

The very idea of predestination implies that God knows all things beforehand. He is, after all, omniscient and not bound by time. So, why would God predestinate someone "to be conformed to the image of his Son" when He knows beforehand that this person would eventually renounce Christ and "lose his salvation" (assuming that that is possible)? The very purpose of predestination and GodÕs perfect foreknowledge contradict this.

Also, note the unbroken chain of events in Romans 8:30: predestinate --> called --> justified --> glorified. God will complete the process for every Christian, not just for some.

In a sense, Christians are already glorified in Christ Jesus, being seated with Him in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). But there is more to come.

At the rapture, they will receive new imperishable bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52-54). There is also further glorification when the church is presented as the spotless bride to the Father by the bridegroom, Christ Jesus (Ephesians 5:27).

So, how can "them he also glorified" be completely true if believers, after being called and justified, can eventually lose their salvation?

[lared]

True, Jehovah God wills that the earth will be restored to a paradise that the meek will inherit. But exactly who will be saved at Armageddon will be up to the individuals themselves. Jehovah God would like all people to survive, that is why the global preaching work is taking place. All people are being invited but not all are taking advantage of the invitation.

A young girl may dream of someday getting married. In her mind, she thinks of a nice size wedding of perhaps a hundred people. Who they will be is yet to be decided. In later years, once she is engaged, she sends out invitations, it is up to individuals to accept or reject.

[Miss Shelby]

Andrew,

Michelle,

My point is simply this: I cant for a moment believe that an "ex-Christian" (if there's such a thing) burning and screaming in pain in hell is still basking in the love of God and enjoying the Father-son relationship. To me its commons sense he's been separated from the love of God -- which contradicts Rom 8:38-39

"Name one!? Ahhhmmmm .... Judas Iscariot?"

If a person goes to hell that is complete separation from God. I'm not sure that God doesn't love the person, though.

There is Scriptural support that Judas was a true believer. He was one of the 12 given to Jesus from the Father. (Luke 6:12 16, John 17 6-8). He was given along with the other 11 the authority to drive out evil spirits and heal all manner of illness. (Matt 10 1-8) Judas could not have been an apostate at this point because Jesus said "If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided agains himself. How then can his kingdom stand?"

Later, he did become a traitor and was referred to as the son of perdition, implying that he had fallen from grace and was well on his way to being eternally lost.

Michelle

[sola fide]

There is scriptural evidence that Judas was before ordained to fall into perdition, which would mean he was not of the elect. Such as John 12:4-8, when he apparently doubted an act of obedience to Christ. He was not of them, because if he had been of the sheep, he wouldn't have went out from the sheep. And Christ did say "of them which thou gavest me I have lost none." John 18:9.
And I do not want to contest the idea that "God loves everyone" persay, but Romans 8 definitely sheds light on God's feeling towards those that are against Him.
I do not believe that a person can "lose" their salvation. to make that claim is to deny any form of biblical predestination. And I believe that the canon is clear on that issue. Who can lay any charge to the elect of God? If He has chosen to start a good work in you, He is the only one who can finish it. Christ is the author and perfector of our faith and He said that we could not be plucked from His hand. To say that you can lose your salvation is to say that Christ could not finish a job He began. That is, if you believe that it is grace that saved us. If salvation is a gift given by God, how can it be given back?
A story I once heard about the subject goes like this. There's an article in the newspaper that offered a free matinee movie at a local movie theater. Many people went and got into the movie free only to find out as they were about to leave that they had to pay a fee to be let out of the theater. What a scam the cinema manager had concocted.
I don't believe this principle applies to salvaiton. You get it for free, but you can pay a fee by works to get out of it. If God has chosen you, you are in His grip, by your own free will, b/c His will and yours have become one in the issue. If salvation is purely of God, and not of man, and we conceed that God is perfect, then how can we lose what was purely of God to begin with? God bless.

Soli Deo gloria!

[Andrew]

"I'm not sure that God doesn't love the person, though. "

yes but that's not the point here. the point is "separation". when one is in hell, he is certainly separated from the love of God. can demons and powers succeed in separating a child of God from God's love, NO, according to Romans 8:38,39.

Judas. He's b4 the cross b4 the church was born. so you can't say Judas was a believer in the sense of being a Christian coz there was no cross or church yet.

also the apostles themselves werent born again until the day of pentecost - cos only then was the Holy Spirit given.

and once the holy spirit is given, it cant be taken back. once a person is born again, he cant by another miracle, become unborn. nature itself teaches us that.

finally, just becos Judas was named one of the disciples and went out among them does not mean he made Jesus Lord over him. if being a disciple meant you are automatically a believer, why would Jesus ask his disciples " 31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?"

[Miss Shelby]

[i]Originally posted by Andrew
"I'm not sure that God doesn't love the person, though. "

yes but that's not the point here. the point is "separation". when one is in hell, he is certainly separated from the love of God. can demons and powers succeed in separating a child of God from God's love, NO, according to Romans 8:38,39.


Our sin can and does separate us from God.  But He still loves us, so I don't see a contradiction with the Scripture.



finally, just becos Judas was named one of the disciples and went out among them does not mean he made Jesus Lord over him. if being a disciple meant you are automatically a believer, why would Jesus ask his disciples " 31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?"

The reason I believe that Judas was a true follower is because of what Scripture says.  It says he was given the power and the authority to do the things commisioned him by Jesus... and Jesus himself said that if Satan casts out Satan the kingdom will not stand.

Admittedly, I don't know if this is a real defense for OSAS--since theoretically Judas could have repented.  However, I think it totally demolishes the myth of double predestination or unconditional election.

Michelle

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by sola fide
[B]There is scriptural evidence that Judas was before ordained to fall into perdition, which would mean he was not of the elect. Such as John 12:4-8, when he apparently doubted an act of obedience to Christ. He was not of them, because if he had been of the sheep, he wouldn't have went out from the sheep. And Christ did say "of them which thou gavest me I have lost none." John 18:9.

But even Peter's faith was weak at times. 


And I do not want to contest the idea that "God loves everyone" persay, but Romans 8 definitely sheds light on God's feeling towards those that are against Him.
I do not believe that a person can "lose" their salvation. to make that claim is to deny any form of biblical predestination. And I believe that the canon is clear on that issue. Who can lay any charge to the elect of God? If He has chosen to start a good work in you, He is the only one who can finish it. Christ is the author and perfector of our faith and He said that we could not be plucked from His hand. To say that you can lose your salvation is to say that Christ could not finish a job He began. That is, if you believe that it is grace that saved us. If salvation is a gift given by God, how can it be given back?
A story I once heard about the subject goes like this. There's an article in the newspaper that offered a free matinee movie at a local movie theater. Many people went and got into the movie free only to find out as they were about to leave that they had to pay a fee to be let out of the theater. What a scam the cinema manager had concocted.
I don't believe this principle applies to salvaiton. You get it for free, but you can pay a fee by works to get out of it. If God has chosen you, you are in His grip, by your own free will, b/c His will and yours have become one in the issue. If salvation is purely of God, and not of man, and we conceed that God is perfect, then how can we lose what was purely of God to begin with? God bless.

Soli Deo gloria!

This lets the believer off the hook, though.  Salvation is a gift from God received by faith through grace, however--we can give that gift back.  We can throw it in the trash.  We can decide that we don't want it.  That is why we are warned strongly against falling away.

Michelle

[suzie]

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who ar God's possession--to the praise of his glory."

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Galations 4:6-7; Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out "Abba, Father." So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

2 Cor 5:5; Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come

[Miss Shelby]

Andrew:

Judas. He's b4 the cross b4 the church was born. so you can't say Judas was a believer in the sense of being a Christian coz there was no cross or church yet.

Jesus was there.

Michelle

[Thunderchild]

If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Ah - this statement applies only to Old Covenant believers.

[Thunderchild]

Nothing can separate a person who is faithful from the love of God. (scripturally supported) There is no declaration here that a person cannot be separated from God and become unfaithful.

Nothing can separate a person who is faithful from God. (scriptural support = zero)

Something might separate a person who is faithful from God - (he becomes unfaithful.)

Peter in unfaithfulness separated himself from God. Being rebuked by Paul, Peter repented. His repentance placed his sins in the past, whereby he was again restored to grace. Again and yet again - the Bible declares that grace is extended with respect to past sins.

[DaveKerwin]

Eternal Security ? YEA !


Romans 11:11

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!


Romans 11: 29

for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

[Thunderchild]

Romans 11:11? You neglected to mention the warning at Romans 11:17 - 22.
(verses 20-22)
[quote] For unbelief they were broken off. And you stand by faith. Do not be high minded, but fear, for if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest neither He will spare you. Behold, then, the kindness and severity of God. Indeed on those having fallen, severity. But on you, kindness, if you continue in his kindness Otherwise you also will be cut off.

But what does verse 23 say? If they that were cut off repent and do not continue in unbelief, they will AGAIN be grafted in.

Neither being cut off nor being saved is necessarily permanent. I will say it again: those who live in unbelief are pre-destined for hell - except they repent. Those who live in belief are pre-destined for heaven - except they repent.

And your mention of verse 29 is timely. It actually continues on from verse 28 (as shown by the "for" as the first word of verse 29). "indeed enemies with regard to the gospel, but nonetheless beloved for the sake of the fathers."

[Loser For Jesus]

For what it's worth, I agree with Thunderchild's last two posts.

I'll quote the words of Jesus again:

Luke 8:13
Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Doesn't get much clearer than that.

love in Christ,
Malcolm

[DaveKerwin]

I will write this out with premesis and a conclusion.



1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)
3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1)
4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2)


5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract.

[DaveKerwin]

Romans 11


The Remnant of Israel

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day." 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."

Ingrafted Branches

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, there is the most of it. The part about the ingrafted branches is a bit complex, and I will admit that parts of it seem that they could be used for either side of the argument, but as it stands now, I do not see branches being ingrafted meaning that you can lose God's gift of eternal life. It talked so much about Israel, and God's covenant with them, yet bringing Gentiles into the whole salvation thing. I will study more and post more later.

[wblastyn]

I think eternal life is a gift from God, and in order to have eternal life we must accept the gift. So I do believe it is possible for someone to "lose" their salvation by giving it back to God, ie. rejecting Christ (deciding Christianity is false after becoming saved, etc).

[Andrew]

so, wblastyn

wld you give it back to God?

[lared]

The Origin and Development of Predestination

In ancient times people believed that their lives could be guided by the stars. This practice, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, was "first categorized and cataloged in ancient Mesopotamia." In time "Babylonian diviners began-for the purpose of predicting the course of an individual's life-to utilize some planetary omens." (Italics ours) Thus the basis for a later belief was laid.

From Babylon such thinking spread and developed in other parts of the earth. It had penetrated Jewish religious thought before the advent of Christianity. The first-century historian Josephus tells us that the Pharisees and Sadducees differed over it. "The Pharisees," he wrote, " . . . ascribe everything to Fate or to God." According to the Muslim Koran: "No soul can ever die except by Allah's leave and at a term appointed."-Surah 3:145, Mohammed Pickthall's translation.

The doctrine of predestination (or, foreordination) was introduced to Christendom by the Roman Catholic "saint" Augustine in the fifth century. It is sometimes called the doctrine of Augustine. The Catholic Church still holds to it, yet not to the extent that Augustine taught. The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 11, page 713, states: "All things are foreknown and foreordained by God."-See also page 714 under the heading "Predestination in Catholic Theology."

The 16th-century Protestant reformer John Calvin was more explicit, like Augustine. "Predestination," Calvin defined as "the eternal decree of God, by which he has determined in himself what he would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others." According to him, God fixed every individual's destiny, including yours, "before the first man was created."

[lared]

Predestination and Its Widespread Effect on People

Calvin's influence became very widespread. Explaining this, the book The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism says: "Calvinism was the faith over which the great political and cultural struggles of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries were fought in the most highly developed countries, the Netherlands, England, and France. . . . the doctrine of predestination was considered its most characteristic dogma. . . . It served as a rallying-point to countless heroes of the Church militant, and in both the eighteenth and the nineteenth centuries it . . . formed the battlecry of great new awakenings."

This doctrine, "most characteristic" of Calvinism, affected people in different ways. Commenting on this, the Encyclopaedia Britannica says: "It minimized man's freedom, and so produced either an over-confidence in those who believed themselves elect, or despair in those who could not reach the assurance." Sometimes such "over-confidence" spread through whole communities, who imagined themselves to be a "chosen race." It was used to justify the suppression of other races considered primitive.

Predestination promotes a fatalistic view toward life, something very common among South Africans, both black and white. This is understandable in view of the strong Calvinistic influence there, especially from the Dutch Reformed and Presbyterian Churches. In the event of death, Xhosas in that country sometimes say: "A man is entitled to slaughter what belongs to him." This implies that God causes deaths, just as a man has the right to slaughter his own sheep.

Belief in predestination can cause a person to lose faith in God. When disaster or serious illness strikes, such a one may blame God, turning against him. This belief can also lead to foolhardiness. Some believe that no matter what risks they take, their life will only end at 'God's fixed time.' For example, this has led to reckless driving, with resultant loss of life, in some north African countries.

[Andrew]

lared,
that's the wrong view of predestination. Predestination is Biblical.

[lared]

What Does the Bible Teach?

It teaches that God created man in his 'image and likeness.' (Genesis 1:26) Such "likeness" refers to qualities, not physical appearance. For instance, just as the Creator is free to do as he chooses, he has created man with a free will. Out of regard for this, the Creator does not fix or foreordain the path each individual will take. Does this conflict with God's ability to see into the future? No! To illustrate: A radio enables one to hear world news in the home, but it must first be switched on and the right station selected at the correct time. Likewise with the Creator's power of foreknowledge; he makes discretionary and selective use of it, showing regard for the free will he gave to man.

The Bible teaches that coincidences and disasters are often a matter of "time and unforeseen occurrence." (Ecclesiastes 9:11, 12) For example, consider a busy traffic intersection. An "unforeseen occurrence," such as failing brakes, at the wrong "time" could cause a fatal accident. The Bible does not teach that God is responsible for or foreordains such things. Realizing their personal responsibility, Christians will endeavor to drive with "soundness of mind," seeing to it that their vehicles are kept in a roadworthy condition.-2 Timothy 1:7.

As to mankind's final destiny, the Bible teaches that there are three possibilities. First, from among those who have accepted God's provision for salvation, he has "called" a certain class. These ones have been destined to life in heaven and the number is fixed-144,000. Under God's appointed King, Jesus Christ, they will form a heavenly government for the blessing of mankind. (Romans 8:29, 30; Revelation 14:1-3; 20:1-4) Although this class and its number have been "foreordained," this is not so respecting the individuals making it up. It is possible that an individual might fail in living up to the heavenly calling, requiring a replacement. Hence the warning: "Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown."-Revelation 3:11; see also Matthew 24:13; Philippians 3:12, 13; 2 Peter 1:10; Jude 3-5.

The other two possibilities are for people to live forever on this earth or finally to lose life altogether. In both cases neither the number nor the individuals have been fixed. The choice depends on man. As the Creator says: "Here I am putting before you people the way of life and the way of death." If a person is on the "way of death," it is not too late to change. God's own invitation is: "Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why is it that you should die?" Also, if a person has chosen "the way of life," he must be careful to stay on it. Jehovah's Witnesses take to heart God's warning: "When I say to the righteous one: 'You will positively keep living,' and he himself actually trusts in his own righteousness and does injustice, all his own righteous acts will not be remembered, but for his injustice that he has done-for this he will die."-Jeremiah 21:8; Ezekiel 33:11, 13.

A wonderful future awaits those who choose and stay on "the way of life." Either by a resurrection from the dead or by surviving into God's New Order, they have the prospect of eternal life. (Psalm 37:10, 11, 29; John 11:25) "The gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus." (Romans 6:23)

[Andrew]

Lared,

You are a JW? Ok, I'm outta here.

anyway, u lost me when you talked abt the 144,000 fixed no. special elect, of which i presume you consider yourself to be one of the priviledged few.

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
I will write this out with premesis and a conclusion.



1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)
3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1)
4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2)


5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract.



cmon.. no takers on this one ?

[lared]

Andrew,
Please do not be afraid. We are peace loving and will not harm you. In fact, we opt to go to jail rather then to serve in the armies of the world.

No, I am not one of the 144,000 that the book of Revelation clearly talks about. I hope to be one of the millions that will inherit the earth, just as Jesus promised......Blessed are the meak for they shall inherit the earth.

Only 144,000 from among mankind are invited to heaven to rule with Jesus in his heavenly kingdom government that shall soon rule over the earth.

Isn't it obvious that man's governments cannot bring about true peace and security here on earth. That is why, we as Christians pray for God's kingdom (government) to come.....or in other words rule over us from heaven.

[Andrew]

Lared,

not afraid. just think JWs are vry off so it'll take a lot of tiring discussion to get back to basics first b4 we can even address the topic of the thread.

anyway I believe in eternal security.

[wblastyn]

so, wblastyn

wld you give it back to God?

No, I meant people, who were Christians and aren't anymore because they don't believe in Jesus or whatever, gave their gift back to God. God doesn't force people into heaven.

[Andrew]

quote:
"so, wblastyn

wld you give it back to God?

No, I meant people, who were Christians and aren't anymore because they don't believe in Jesus or whatever, gave their gift back to God. God doesn't force people into heaven."

well I was asking you wblastyn, not those people. If u believe its possible for them, then you shld also believe its poss for you to one day denounce Christ. so do u belive in your heart that u might just do it one day?

[suzie]

I have a question wblastyn. If you believe that you can lose your salvation that would mean that you have renounced Jesus and turned your back to God, right? How can you do that if when you are saved you no longer live, but Christ lives in you. If Christ is alive in us then how can we deny Christ?

[sola fide]

She has a great point. A true sheep cannot leave the flock, because the shephard will seek him each time he tries to go astray. I think it's important that we do not frustrate the grace of God. We should accept it for what it is, unmerited favor. If it's unearned, that how can we "earn" the loss of it?

Soli Deo gloria!

[Thunderchild]

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Of course they didn't fall beyond recovery. If they repent they are recovered, same as for anyone else. Unrepentant people are not recovered.

1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23) Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Quite simple, isn't it? If your master is sin - you reap the reward of sin. If your master is Christ - you reap the reward of Christ.

2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)Rom 11:26 - 27 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. God will not revoke his gifts and calling - all Israel will be saved when God takes away their sins. Again, same as for anyone else... Note that "pas" translated as "all" does not mean "every one."

"Pas" is used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts

  - "of all sorts" is to be taken as representative samples of all levels of Jewish society. Christ saved some Pharisees, some prostitutes, some fishermen etc and so forth. Anyone of Israel will be saved when God takes away his sins.



3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1)Agreed. "servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life" - well, loyal servants, anyway. Jesus did have a few things to say about unrighteous servants.

4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2)mis-applied with regard to salvation at the [i]individual level - this premise is based on what?


5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract.based on a false premise at point 4, therefore invalid. The "gift" is sanctification - the end result of sanctification is eternal life. Eternal life is not a gift of God, but results from the gift of God. And the gift of God, "sanctification," is bestowed upon whom? Those who remain in him.

This word "foreknowledge" is interesting - it is translated from "pro-ginosko" (compare pro-life, pro-active, arguments pro etc. It is the opposite of contra). Why are people trying to make it mean the same as would be meant by "pre-ginosko?"

[Andrew]

quote: "She has a great point. A true sheep cannot leave the flock, because the shephard will seek him each time he tries to go astray. I think it's important that we do not frustrate the grace of God. We should accept it for what it is, unmerited favor. If it's unearned, that how can we "earn" the loss of it?"

amen! and a sheep cannot turn back into a goat or dog or pig -- one cannot reverse the greatest miracle and be UN-born-again.

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Andrew
quote: "She has a great point. A true sheep cannot leave the flock, because the shephard will seek him each time he tries to go astray. I think it's important that we do not frustrate the grace of God. We should accept it for what it is, unmerited favor. If it's unearned, that how can we "earn" the loss of it?"

amen! and a sheep cannot turn back into a goat or dog or pig -- one cannot reverse the greatest miracle and be UN-born-again.

Hey Andrew, we agree!

[Hojo Hominygrits]

Andrew, it's nice to see another who understands what Paul was saying in Romans!! You are right on.

Romans: What a powerful book!

[Andrew]

"Hey Andrew, we agree!"

Dave, feel like giving you a kiss here but slapping you on the other healing/prosperity threads. *LOL*

thank God we agree on something.
btw: saw your cute tagline -- now now, you shldnt quote me out of context.

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Thunderchild
Of course they didn't fall beyond recovery. If they repent they are recovered, same as for anyone else. Unrepentant people are not recovered.

1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23) Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Quite simple, isn't it? If your master is sin - you reap the reward of sin. If your master is Christ - you reap the reward of Christ.

2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)Rom 11:26 - 27 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. God will not revoke his gifts and calling - all Israel will be saved when God takes away their sins. Again, same as for anyone else... Note that "pas" translated as "all" does not mean "every one." - "of all sorts" is to be taken as representative samples of all levels of Jewish society. Christ saved some Pharisees, some prostitutes, some fishermen etc and so forth. Anyone of Israel will be saved when God takes away his sins.



3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1)Agreed. "servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life" - well, loyal servants, anyway. Jesus did have a few things to say about unrighteous servants.

4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2)mis-applied with regard to salvation at the [i]individual level - this premise is based on what?


5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract.based on a false premise at point 4, therefore invalid. The "gift" is sanctification - the end result of sanctification is eternal life. Eternal life is not a gift of God, but results from the gift of God. And the gift of God, "sanctification," is bestowed upon whom? Those who remain in him.

This word "foreknowledge" is interesting - it is translated from "pro-ginosko" (compare pro-life, pro-active, arguments pro etc. It is the opposite of contra). Why are people trying to make it mean the same as would be meant by "pre-ginosko?"

Premise 4 is based on premise 2, as noted. Premise 2 is quoted scripture, not my words, if you don't like them, too bad. God's gifts are irrevocable.

What other problems do you see with this argument? I don't see any.

[lared]

You will have to excuse me as I was told that I could no longer be part of the discussions.