Can Satan Be Forgiven?

[DiscipleOfIAm]

What if, for some odd reason, Satan decided to ask for forgiveness and repent? Can he do that or is that reserved for human beings only? We all know it isn't going to happen since we know the end story, but you'd think he would want to since he knows the end story, too.

God Bless

[HumbleMan]

I don't know. Interesting question, though.

I'm thinking John 3:16 "For God so loved the world ". I don't know if angels qualify as worldly beings, or just Spiritual.

[jcright]

I've often wondered the same thing. The conclusion I've come to is that even though he knows what will happen, he's so wrapped up in his own lies that he actuallly believes them and therefore doesn't believe what will happen.

I've talked with a pastor angels and demons. He made the case that the angels were in a state of unconfirmed holiness when they were created. Once the demons decided to rebel against God, they were permanently stuck in a state of unholiness.

To make this post legit, I'll try and answer your question. No. I don't think he can sincerely ask for forgiveness.

[DiscipleOfIAm]

I'm with HumbleMan, I'm not sure if he qualifies as the "world". It might just apply to humans.

However, if there are any scholarly folks out there, please ring in!!

[MagusAlbertus]

Don’t know… but my take:

Satan could as much repent as Jesus could have sinned.

[novcncy]

I don't think Satan can repent. He still says "I will be like the Most High." And for the time being, he is nearly there. It is interesting that the most intelligent creature of God, is still susceptible to delusions of grandeur.

[Joykins]

Jews pretty much believe that Satan works for God. It's an interesting viewpoint.

[novcncy]

Jews pretty much believe that Satan works for God. It's an interesting viewpoint.

They also believe that Jesus wasn't the Messiah, which is an interesting viewpoint, as well.

[Joykins]

They also believe that Jesus wasn't the Messiah, which is an interesting viewpoint, as well.

Yes, but the tradition of Satan existing as a heavenly prosecutor is older than that other tradition ;)

[eldermike]

From Baptist doctrine you could draw this conclusion.

God would make the first move, drawing Satan to Him.
Salvation forumula: God moves - we respond - God gives us His Spirit and seals us as part of His Kingdom (seal = ownership)
Since we have the whole story, we know how it ends.

[abbygirlforever]

I don't think Satan would be forgiven even if he did repent (which he won't do).

The angels had direct access to God. They dwelled in heaven. They knew far better than Adam and Eve ever did the glory of God and the vastness of His holiness. Satan did far more than just rebel against God. He actively attempted to destroy God's creation. He messed with Adam and Eve.

To fall so far from such prominence demands a greater degree of responsibility. Christ died for humans, not angels. Fallen angels are bound for the Judgement Day, but in a sense their fate has already been sealed.

Hebrews 2

14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

[JPPT1974]

I don't know. Interesting question, though.

I'm thinking John 3:16 "For God so loved the world ". I don't know if angels qualify as worldly beings, or just Spiritual.

God loved the world that He sent Jesus into the world for us to die and pay the price for our sins. Eternal life was at stake and on the line.

[Richard]

I believe that the devil could repent, but the question is what would happen to Hell?

[abbygirlforever]

I believe that the devil could repent, but the question is what would happen to Hell?

Even if Satan repented, that doesn't mean the angels that fell with him would repent. And even if all of them repented, there are still all the humans who did not repent.

[Crazy Liz]

I believe that the devil could repent, but the question is what would happen to Hell?
revelation 20:14

[Flynmonkie]

Something I thought of -- I would have to find the verse. But God cursed Satan and reprimanded Adam. I remember this because it always intrigued me. Satan was cursed - however Adam was punished. If I believe that Satan is "cursed" - IOW - No options.
I believe this is the verse I am thinking of.........
Genesis 3:14
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

[Theophorus]

Don’t know… but my take:

Satan could as much repent as Jesus could have sinned.

I would go with this, most definetly.

[PaladinGirl]

I don't think Satan could repent. But even if he could, I don't think he'd be forgiven. The sin he committed (if you can call it a sin) is worse than blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, the unforgivable sin.

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Satan and the other fallen angels made their choice. They are at the point we will be at after we die. That is, we'll be stuck with the choices we made.

[DiscipleOfIAm]

Satan and the other fallen angels made their choice. They are at the point we will be at after we die. That is, we'll be stuck with the choices we made.

I like this one. They, (Satan and fallen angels), made their choice and are stuck with it. I suppose it is the same if we went to Hell and then decided we "changed our mind" and wanted to repent. We couldn't do it. We have to choose now, just like he had to choose in eternity past.

Thanks for the responses!

[eldermike]

God speaks only truth. God spoke Satan's fate in Gen chapter 3. Satan is not in charge of His fate, God spoke it.
So, Satan did not accept God as Lord, in fact Satan thought He was just like God by knowing good and evil. When Satan passed this tidbit of false information along to Eve, God spoke Him into hell. There is no way to resolve this, God is not a liar.

[aReformedPatriot]

What if, for some odd reason, Satan decided to ask for forgiveness and repent? Can he do that or is that reserved for human beings only? We all know it isn't going to happen since we know the end story, but you'd think he would want to since he knows the end story, too.

God Bless

I think scripture reveals the answer

First Scripture tells a little bit of a rebellion in heaven.

The new Testament states that Hell is specifically for Satan and the rebellious angels.

From the begginings of Genesis we prophetically see him being crushed under God's heel.

All of the New Testament affirms his destination as well as the destination of all the rebellious angels.

Based on this, I believe that Christ's sacrifice was only for the sin of Adam as he is mentioned as being the new Adam. Satan and the angels have no hope for redemption. The very fact that his destruction is prophisied is enough to answer the question.

Mark

[Dmckay]

This is basically a rhetorical along the lins of, How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Since we know the answer the discussion is a waste of time.

[DiscipleOfIAm]

This is basically a rhetorical along the lins of, How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Since we know the answer the discussion is a waste of time.


Sorry to have wasted your time. There are many other discussions you can join and comment on.

Thanks to all who took the time to comment and discuss. This was just something I thought about while listening to a sermon recently and thought it would be a interesting topic to comment on.

God Bless

[abbygirlforever]

You mean to say that God holds grudges? How can he expect from us what He himself would not do?

God said we have to forgive other humans, not heavenly beings.

Christ didn't die for heavenly beings, so even if they did repent the blood of Christ does not cover their sins.

But as was said, it doesn't really matter since it's never going to happen.

[JPPT1974]

Never in a trillion years can Satan ever, ever be forgiven as he is such an evil spirit and God. He does evil things to people as well as is the really arch-nemesis of the Lord as well as the Christians of the world.

[TwinCrier]

I believe Satan could and would indeed be forgiven if he were to repent, but God already knows he won't. God knows everything.

[Crazy Liz]

I believe Satan could and would indeed be forgiven if he were to repent, but God already knows he won't. God knows everything.
:( Reading this statement just makes me sad. I think about the people I don't want to forgive, people I just know won't repent. And then I think about people who have at various times felt that way about me, and how much that attitude makes it more difficult to repent.

Why? It's pointless. They won't even believe it if I try.

I know you're not trying to say exactly that about God, but believing something is never going to happen does have influence. It can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. :(

[FreeinChrist]

What if, for some odd reason, Satan decided to ask for forgiveness and repent? Can he do that or is that reserved for human beings only? We all know it isn't going to happen since we know the end story, but you'd think he would want to since he knows the end story, too.

God Bless

I believe Hebrews 2 makes it clear that there is a salvation plan for fallen man, but not for angels.

The Jews may be right that God uses Satan by allowing him to accuse and to buffet men. But that doesn't change Satan's nature which is evil.

[HoneyDew]

:( Reading this statement just makes me sad. I think about the people I don't want to forgive, people I just know won't repent. And then I think about people who have at various times felt that way about me, and how much that attitude makes it more difficult to repent.

Why? It's pointless. They won't even believe it if I try.

I know you're not trying to say exactly that about God, but believing something is never going to happen does have influence. It can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. :(

Thank you for this perspective. :) This is an interesting thread.

[seebs]

I don't know whether it can happen.

But I think our duty is clear; to hope and pray that it does.

[seebs]

God speaks only truth. God spoke Satan's fate in Gen chapter 3. Satan is not in charge of His fate, God spoke it.

I see no hell there. Satan's fate sounds no worse than ours.

So, Satan did not accept God as Lord, in fact Satan thought He was just like God by knowing good and evil. When Satan passed this tidbit of false information along to Eve, God spoke Him into hell. There is no way to resolve this, God is not a liar.

I don't see anything about hell in there. I see a very significant change in status... But I don't see anything about hell.

Our status was changed there, too, but according to Jesus, we can come back if we want to.

[mesue]

It is not God's will that any should perish.
Satan is like a lot of people, he knows the Bible very well, but he doesn't have a relationship with the Author and finisher of our faith.
2Pe:3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Crazy Liz]

God speaks only truth. God spoke Satan's fate in Gen chapter 3. Satan is not in charge of His fate, God spoke it.
So, Satan did not accept God as Lord, in fact Satan thought He was just like God by knowing good and evil. When Satan passed this tidbit of false information along to Eve, God spoke Him into hell. There is no way to resolve this, God is not a liar.
I've seen this opinion and several other variations of it all over this thread. But I can't figure out exactly how what God says to or about Satan differs from what God says to and about the Ninevites in Jonah. :scratch:

[FreeinChrist]

Then he told the story of the Prodigal Son. Here the son left on his own. He did not get lost and he did not stray. He made a decision to leave. We often focus on the son, but forget the father. Unlike the woman and the shepherd, the father does not go after the son. Immediately, if we were careful in our interpretation we would have seen that the father cannot represent Jesus. Jesus did not stay at home waiting for us to change our minds. But the father in this story does. So, if the father does not represent Jesus in the plan of salvation the son cannot represent us. I think that story is God's deepest heart cry, expressing the hope that Satan would realize that he is in a pig sty and get up and come back home. Because he left on his own God cannot go out and rescue him. But if he ever should decide to come back he would be welcomed in the same way the father in the story rushed out to celebrate his son's return.

Well, I believe the father represents God the Father.




What is interesting is the way so many in this thread reflect the behavior of the older boy who insist that he should not be accepted back. The Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish. That includes Satan. It is time for us to stop acting like the selfish older brother.


Discussing a theological question is not acting like the older brother, stateri. Try not to be so judgmental.

[abbygirlforever]

Romans 12:9 - Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

Anybody believe that Satan is not evil?

Hebrews 2:16 - For surely it is not angels he [Jesus] helps, but Abraham's descendants.

Hebrews 9:22 - In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Christ did not die for angels. There is no intercessor for the fallen angels (Satan being one of them). Even if they did repent, no sacrifice has been made to allow that repentence to be accepted.

Satan and his followers did more than just sin; they literally fought against God. There was a war in Heaven. When Satan lost the battle and was cast down, he decided to destroy God's creation, hence Adam's fall. And ever since then, Satan has been roaming the earth turning humans against God.

The curse put upon Satan in Genesis 3 was more than just a curse - it was judgement in advance. There is no going back, no asking for forgiveness. The lake of fire was created for Satan and his angels, which implies that God already has decided (or at least forseen) their fate.

Of course, Satan and his angels will never repent, so all of this is just a big "what if".

[mesue]

I've seen this opinion and several other variations of it all over this thread. But I can't figure out exactly how what God says to or about Satan differs from what God says to and about the Ninevites in Jonah. :scratch:
The Ninevites were men descended from Adam, Satan was a cherub, created beings very different from men. Satan was already "saved" and in Heaven. Satan had his chance, and yes, I think God is still very disappointed and saddened by this. But Satan made his choice.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

[mesue]

There is where theologians have done the church a disservice. You can't be saved until after you have been lost. Satan was never saved, though one could argue that he was safe. What or where was he ever saved from? We can't just misuse the language to preserve our teachings.
:scratch: How is that a disservice? Can I have a Book, Chapter and Verse to back up you "Disservice Theory"?
Neither were the angels "saved" but they reside in Heaven. Are you saying God can't set the rules for residense in Heaven?
God says in His word WE must be saved. What does He say about angels, cherubs and seraphim and their entry into Heaven? Nothing about salvation.
Where did I misuse the language?

[mesue]

We need to be saved because we were lost. Adam was not saved until after he was lost. That is what it means to be saved. The disservice was done because the theologians themselves have used the word without adhering to its meaning. Now the wrong way looks like it is the right way and no one will be dissuaded.
Book?
Chapter?
Verse?

[statrei]

Satan was already "saved" and in Heaven. This is where you misused the language when you claimed that Satan was already "saved." Putting the word in quotation marks does not save the idea.

[Crazy Liz]

:scratch: How is that a disservice? Can I have a Book, Chapter and Verse to back up you "Disservice Theory"?
Neither were the angels "saved" but they reside in Heaven. Are you saying God can't set the rules for residense in Heaven?
God says in His word WE must be saved. What does He say about angels, cherubs and seraphim and their entry into Heaven? Nothing about salvation.
Where did I misuse the language?

Of course God can set the rules for residence in heaven. And God does not tell us anything about salvation of angels. I don't think that helps your case, though, since God has not necessarily revealed to us everything, just as God has not revealed everything to angels.

1 peter 1:10-12

You've asked for book chapter and verse, but the rules of logic require the one making a definite statement to provide proof, not the one saying something is possible, but unknown.

[aReformedPatriot]

Closing this thread for a few minutes for clean up.

[aReformedPatriot]

Thread Re-opened :)

MOD HAT ON

Please, only B/A members may debate here. Non B/A members may post questions and fellowship but do not cross the line.

MOD HAT OFF

Thanks,
TLE

[FreeinChrist]

The Ninevites were men descended from Adam, Satan was a cherub, created beings very different from men. Satan was already "saved" and in Heaven. Satan had his chance, and yes, I think God is still very disappointed and saddened by this. But Satan made his choice.

I agree - though I would say that Satan started off in a position of acceptance by God, and blew it.

God already let us know what will happen to Satan.

[Crazy Liz]

God already let us know what will happen to Satan.
Like God let Jonah know what would happen to the Ninevites? :scratch:

[seebs]

Romans 12:9 - Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

Anybody believe that Satan is not evil?

An interesting question! Do you consider humans evil, especially before they develop a relationship with God?

But let's look at this in the context of Christ's teachings. We are to love our enemies.

What this means is that we must distinguish between entities, who are always to be loved, and actions or behaviors, some of which we may, or even should, oppose strenuously.

Christ did not die for angels.

Are they not some aspect of the world? "For God so loved the world..."

There is no intercessor for the fallen angels (Satan being one of them). Even if they did repent, no sacrifice has been made to allow that repentence to be accepted.

And perhaps one day there will be. I am not about to tell God what to do on this.

Satan and his followers did more than just sin; they literally fought against God. There was a war in Heaven. When Satan lost the battle and was cast down, he decided to destroy God's creation, hence Adam's fall. And ever since then, Satan has been roaming the earth turning humans against God.

Do you have a citation to the Bible for any of this? Because, see, I can't find it outside of, say, Paradise Lost. I can't find it in the Bible. Maybe I just missed the important part?

The curse put upon Satan in Genesis 3 was more than just a curse - it was judgement in advance. There is no going back, no asking for forgiveness. The lake of fire was created for Satan and his angels, which implies that God already has decided (or at least forseen) their fate.

Of course, Satan and his angels will never repent, so all of this is just a big "what if".

Once upon a time, it was us who would never repent, because to do so, we would have needed grace, which we did not have.

Do you think we have used up all the grace there is? Did God run out?

[Flynmonkie]

John 16:11 KJV
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Thought this would shed some light on the subject ;)

[mesue]

This is where you misused the language when you claimed that Satan was already "saved." Putting the word in quotation marks does not save the idea.
That's because created beings, other than man, are not subject to salvation because they are already in Heaven. By putting a word in quotes one gives the "idea" of the word implying just that; an idea because there is no other way to convey the thought. How else would you have me word it? How would you have the theologians word it?

[seebs]

I think it's important to recognize how much of what we're talking about here is purely speculative. We know next to nothing about angels, and most of what we "know" comes from popular literature (such as Dante's Inferno) rather than from the Bible or even from Hebrew oral tradition. As a topic for speculation, this is an excellent way to wrestle with the question of whether there are any boundaries to the commandment to love even our enemies. As a topic for dogmatism and infighting, it is probably a poor use of time. To the best of my knowledge, none of us know the details of the nature of angels well enough to justify alienating our brothers and sisters in Christ, either in general or within this forum, over what are ultimately our own speculations and opinions.

This has the potential for being very edifying. The commandment to love our enemies is a terrifying one, and one we are eager to find exceptions to.

[FreeinChrist]

Like God let Jonah know what would happen to the Ninevites? :scratch:

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Regarding Ninevah:
Jon 4:11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know {the difference} between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"


Ninevah was spared for the sake of the children (don't know left from right) who had not offended God, and because they (the children) had a chance to be righteous since the town changed its ways. I don't think Ninevah can be used as an example that God may change His mind abut Satan, an angelic being who had been in His very presence.

[seebs]

[...]Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know {the difference} between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"

Eep! I have a friend who can't tell right from left.

Ninevah was spared for the sake of the children (don't know left from right) who had not offended God, and because they (the children) had a chance to be righteous since the town changed its ways. I don't think Ninevah can be used as an example that God may change His mind abut Satan, an angelic being who had been in His very presence.

I don't see why not.

FWIW, I don't particularly think the verse in Revelation is literally about Satan; I think it's about happenings in the first century, around the time of the destruction of the Temple. It reads, to me, like a letter written in code to the early church, to escape the censors. I could be wrong; that's just what I think.

[mesue]

I...
This has the potential for being very edifying. The commandment to love our enemies is a terrifying one, and one we are eager to find exceptions to.

Speaking of Satan's salvation is an opportunity for edyfication ... hmmm ...
I'm not terrified to love my enemies, or to edify my bretheren. But the Bible draws clear lines as to whom is whom. Further, it clearly states what my purpose is for; to worship and glorify God, not Satan. Wishing, hoping, and speculating that he would return to Heaven clarifies, for me at least, the clearly drawn lines.

[statrei]

That's because created beings, other than man, are not subject to salvation because they are already in Heaven. By putting a word in quotes one gives the "idea" of the word implying just that; an idea because there is no other way to convey the thought. How else would you have me word it? How would you have the theologians word it?I have to tread carefully lest I violate the non-debate rule. I think it is sufficient to agree that they were in heaven. Saying they were saved implies that they were lost prior to that, and lends to confusion.

Again, I hope I have not violated the rules by responding to this question.

[abbygirlforever]

An interesting question! Do you consider humans evil, especially before they develop a relationship with God?

But let's look at this in the context of Christ's teachings. We are to love our enemies.

What this means is that we must distinguish between entities, who are always to be loved, and actions or behaviors, some of which we may, or even should, oppose strenuously.

Humans without God are evil. Humans with God are forgiven and made righteous through Christ.

Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to love Satan and fallen angels in general. The verses about loving our enemies applies to people.


Are they not some aspect of the world? "For God so loved the world..."


No, they are not. They are heavenly beings, though fallen. To be otherwise would contradict the verse from Hebrews 2 that I posted before.

And perhaps one day there will be. I am not about to tell God what to do on this.

All the evidence in the Bible points otherwise.

Do you have a citation to the Bible for any of this? Because, see, I can't find it outside of, say, Paradise Lost. I can't find it in the Bible. Maybe I just missed the important part?

Revelation 12:7 - And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon [Satan], and the dragon and his angels fought back.

Yes, I know the verse is from Revelation, but prophecy happens on many levels. Other parts of the chapter speak of the dragon (aka Satan) sweeping down a third of the stars with his tail. Stars are symbols of angels. Satan and his angels were already cast down and will be again when they try to retake heaven.


Once upon a time, it was us who would never repent, because to do so, we would have needed grace, which we did not have.

Do you think we have used up all the grace there is? Did God run out?


God doesn't "run out" of grace, but He gets to choose to whom His grace is alotted.

John 16

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Satan's fate has already been decided. There is no going back.

[mesue]

I have to tread carefully lest I violate the non-debate rule. I think it is sufficient to agree that they were in heaven. Saying they were saved implies that they were lost prior to that, and lends to confusion.

Again, I hope I have not violated the rules by responding to this question.
You're not a Baptist? :scratch:
What denom are you, that you would violate the rules?

[seebs]

Humans without God are evil. Humans with God are forgiven and made righteous through Christ.

Should we love humans without God? If so, then we should love some things which are evil.

Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to love Satan and fallen angels in general. The verses about loving our enemies applies to people.

I see no restrictions here. Furthermore, what do you mean by "people"? Entities capable of volition?

No, they are not. They are heavenly beings, though fallen. To be otherwise would contradict the verse from Hebrews 2 that I posted before.

And Heaven is not part of "the world"? The heavens and the earth are a single creation, no?

All the evidence in the Bible points otherwise.

I haven't seen any yet.

Revelation 12:7 - And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon [Satan], and the dragon and his angels fought back.

Yes, I know the verse is from Revelation, but prophecy happens on many levels. Other parts of the chapter speak of the dragon (aka Satan) sweeping down a third of the stars with his tail. Stars are symbols of angels. Satan and his angels were already cast down and will be again when they try to retake heaven.

I don't see any evidence that this was supposed to be a past-tense thing at all (since the whole vision is described past-tense anyway). But even then... I think the subject of this prophecy was material-world events in the first century. So I don't see its relevance.

God doesn't "run out" of grace, but He gets to choose to whom His grace is alotted.

Okay.

John 16

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Satan's fate has already been decided. There is no going back.

I don't see the word "Satan" there. I am not sure how we would establish that the term there refers to Satan.

Furthermore, it does not say what that judgment is.

Why should it? God is not big on telling us about God's judgment of other entities; we are to be concerned with our own souls.

[abbygirlforever]

Seebs, you are bound and determined to believe what you want to believe, and that's your right. We've beat the issue to death. Anything else I could add would just be a repeat said in a different way.

I think you're wrong, but that's OK. You think I'm wrong, and that's OK.

[seebs]

I'm not particularly bound and determined to believe anything. I'm just not convinced of anything yet. :)

[PurchasedByChrist]

here is my thought...Satan was Created by God ,knowing fully the nature of God...we did not we were born into sin, Satan was not....Satan is so far Gone and totaly comsumed with himself..that he would never repent..I will become like the God Most high I will ascend to the throne of the most high...and then he used the very same madness to tempt Eve. "you will be like God, Knowing good from evil" but the question is interesting but moot.

[seebs]

Y'know, I'd like to look closer at the Ninevah thing again. Could someone tell me how the original prophecy Jonah got worked out?

[9-iron]

John 16:11 KJV
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Thought this would shed some light on the subject



I think the issue is that satan has already been judged by God. His fate has been sealed. Remember God doesn't operate in the same time/space as we do. Satan's fate is done in God's time/space. Kind of like King David accepting Christ before Christ was actually crucified. The whole time/space thing is where we get confused.

[statrei]

You're not a Baptist? :scratch:
What denom are you, that you would violate the rules?The rules say that non-members cannot debate but they can fellowship.

[Flynmonkie]

I have to tread carefully lest I violate the non-debate rule. I think it is sufficient to agree that they were in heaven. Saying they were saved implies that they were lost prior to that, and lends to confusion.

Again, I hope I have not violated the rules by responding to this question.
I don't think sharing what you believe is a violation - is it?

I agree here - of course I have yet to do a serious study on this - but you have a point. I am not sure where scripture can be found on this (probably a different subject altogether)

Humans without God are evil. Humans with God are forgiven and made righteous through Christ.

I am not so sure I agree with this point.
We are dead and have a natural tendancy to lean toward sin, however "evil" creatures... not sure I agree. (Depraived - vs. evil) The only evil "creature" I can think truly very well described in the Bible is Satan. Unless I am missing something here. :scratch:
John 16
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Satan's fate has already been decided. There is no going back.
Absolutely!

[Crazy Liz]

I think the issue is that satan has already been judged by God. His fate has been sealed. Remember God doesn't operate in the same time/space as we do. Satan's fate is done in God's time/space. Kind of like King David accepting Christ before Christ was actually crucified. The whole time/space thing is where we get confused.
jonah 3:1-4

Had Nineveh already been judged by God?

[statrei]

Jonah 3:1-41 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. 3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

Had Nineveh already been judged by God?There is difference between being judged and being sentenced. But you already know that.

[Crazy Liz]

There is difference between being judged and being sentenced. But you already know that.
Is that difference relevant to this discussion?

[Flynmonkie]

Ok guys Call me slow here…….

I am so lost…

After quick reference I am truly struggling to see the comparison of Jonah with John’s 16.11 judgment.

The translation for Judgment in John 16:11 krino = to judge, used of a legal or other decision; generally translated "judge", sometimes "determine", "conclude", etc.

The comparison to the judgment termed in Jonah seems to be different.

I see no “probationary” period for Satan in conjunction with the word judgment used clearly in John 16.11 as indicated in the word “forty” in Jonah. In addition the overwhelming scripture against Satan that is conclusive and decidedly written. Nowhere in scripture do I find where we are to make Satan an object of prayer or love.

I am really lost in this comparison – could someone elaborate this point a bit more for me? Sort of feeling like “what did I miss”?

[Crazy Liz]

Ok guys Call me slow here…….

I am so lost…

After quick reference I am truly struggling to see the comparison of Jonah with John’s 16.11 judgment.

The translation for Judgment in John 16:11 krino = to judge, used of a legal or other decision; generally translated "judge", sometimes "determine", "conclude", etc.

The comparison to the judgment termed in Jonah seems to be different.

I see no “probationary” period for Satan in conjunction with the word judgment used clearly in John 16.11 as indicated in the word “forty” in Jonah. In addition the overwhelming scripture against Satan that is conclusive and decidedly written. Nowhere in scripture do I find where we are to make Satan an object of prayer or love.

I am really lost in this comparison – could someone elaborate this point a bit more for me? Sort of feeling like “what did I miss”?
God told Jonah he was going to destroy Nineveh in 40 days. God did not put any conditions on this. God simply said it was going to happen.

WRT Satan's condemnation, God also says various things indicating unconditional condemnation. How can any of us be absolutely sure that God won't possibly do the same thing WRT Satan's condemnation as God did WRT Nineveh's?

Should Jonah have made the Ninevites an object of prayer or love after God told him to go prophesy against them?

[seebs]

To make it more confusing, I don't think Jonah had ever been told unconditionally to love his enemies. I have.

As to whether there's anything saying to make Satan an object of prayer or love: I have been instructed to pray for and love my enemies. If Satan is my enemy, I should love him and pray for him. If he is not, I should still love him and pray for him. These are unconditional responses, and I am not aware of a single verse in the NT saying "but don't pray for them, only for these people."

[eldermike]

Satan will not be saved. The only prayer we should offer is one of protection of the saints against his tricks.

2CO 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

REV 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[statrei]

Is that difference relevant to this discussion?It could if you recognize the difference. But I can't debate here.

[9-iron]

As to whether there's anything saying to make Satan an object of prayer or love: I have been instructed to pray for and love my enemies. If Satan is my enemy, I should love him and pray for him.



I don't have the verse, but something to do with 'clinging to what is good and hating what is evil......'.

[seebs]

I don't have the verse, but something to do with 'clinging to what is good and hating what is evil......'.

But my enemies may well be evil! I am still supposed to love my enemies.

It seems to me that the verse in question refers to beliefs or actions, not entities.

[mesue]

I don't have the verse, but something to do with 'clinging to what is good and hating what is evil......'.
This one
Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

[mesue]

... WRT ...
:scratch: WRT?

:help:

[Crazy Liz]

:scratch: WRT?

:help:
WRT = "with regard to" or "with reference to" or "with respect to"

[mesue]

WRT = "with regard to" or "with reference to" or "with respect to"
:doh: Ahhh!
It just got a little brighter on this side of the screen! :blush:
:D Thanx Liz!!

[mesue]

But my enemies may well be evil! I am still supposed to love my enemies.

It seems to me that the verse in question refers to beliefs or actions, not entities.
Satan is the arch enemy, or adversary, The Enemy. God says pray for your enemies, not the enemy. Not a play on words but the Strong's Concordance definition of the Hebrew text.

[Flynmonkie]

But my enemies may well be evil! I am still supposed to love my enemies.

It seems to me that the verse in question refers to beliefs or actions, not entities.
“Acting” or “being” or “doing” evil etc.., and personifying the idea are two entirely different things.

However, I have heard of the two suggested sides to the issue and the questions raised before. Haven't spent much time in deep study on the idea. Again I still have not seen evidence that we are ever instructed to pray for Satan or to love him in any matter whatsoever. Or at all the potential for His repentance. Again, I have yet to study this subject in depth, so I am open to enlightenment of other valid ideas. Satan has been judged. This combined with a multitude of scripture -I can say with what I have studied regarding Hell, death, Satan – this is most certainly not a concluded discernment I have drawn. But there are Christians with varying views and varying levels of education on the matter at that. IMHO

[FreeinChrist]

God told Jonah he was going to destroy Nineveh in 40 days. God did not put any conditions on this. God simply said it was going to happen.

WRT Satan's condemnation, God also says various things indicating unconditional condemnation. How can any of us be absolutely sure that God won't possibly do the same thing WRT Satan's condemnation as God did WRT Nineveh's?

Should Jonah have made the Ninevites an object of prayer or love after God told him to go prophesy against them?

Did you miss my post?


I posted:
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Regarding Ninevah:
Jon 4:11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know {the difference} between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"


Ninevah was spared for the sake of the children (don't know left from right) who had not offended God, and because they (the children) had a chance to be righteous since the town changed its ways. I don't think Ninevah can be used as an example that God may change His mind about Satan, an angelic being who had been in His very presence.

Look at the sequence:
Jon 1:2 "Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before Me."
Jonah tries to dodge the duty - has that interaction with the whale. But in the course of that, there is some interesting comments God saw fit to have in the book:
Jon 1:12 He said to them, "Pick me up and throw me into the sea. Then the sea will become calm for you, for I know that on account of me this great storm {has come} upon you."
Who was causing the children of Ninevah to grow up wicked?

Jon 1:14 Then they called on the LORD and said, "We earnestly pray, O LORD, do not let us perish on account of this man's life and do not put innocent blood on us; for You, O LORD, have done as You have pleased."
When the Ninevites repented....

Jon 3:9 "Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish."
Two groups concerned about perishing....innocent blood..

Now what did Jonah say:
Jon 3:2 "Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and proclaim to it the proclamation which I am going to tell you."

Jon 3:3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three days' walk.

Jon 3:4 Then Jonah began to go through the city one day's walk; and he cried out and said, "Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown."
I don't see a condition ...but I also don't see the same type of statement of God like when he said the Israelites would wander 40 years as a result of a sin.

And what was Jonah's angry response:
Jon 4:3 "Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life."


Jonah has some interesting themes...but I don't think it can be used as an argument for the possible forgiveness of Satan...and see no arguement to convince me Satan could be pardoned.

[FreeinChrist]

Eep! I have a friend who can't tell right from left.
That is a problem for him.
However, the meaning of the phrase in Jonah is to indicate children.


I don't see why not.
tht is for you to decide.


FWIW, I don't particularly think the verse in Revelation is literally about Satan; I think it's about happenings in the first century, around the time of the destruction of the Temple. It reads, to me, like a letter written in code to the early church, to escape the censors. I could be wrong; that's just what I think.
And as I beleive, as the ECF did that Revelation was written in the time of Dominitan - 95- 96 AD, I very much disagree with you.

[FreeinChrist]

I think the issue is that satan has already been judged by God. His fate has been sealed. Remember God doesn't operate in the same time/space as we do. Satan's fate is done in God's time/space. Kind of like King David accepting Christ before Christ was actually crucified. The whole time/space thing is where we get confused.

Yep!

[Crazy Liz]

Did you miss my post?


I posted:
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Regarding Ninevah:
Jon 4:11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know {the difference} between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"


Ninevah was spared for the sake of the children (don't know left from right) who had not offended God, and because they (the children) had a chance to be righteous since the town changed its ways. I don't think Ninevah can be used as an example that God may change His mind about Satan, an angelic being who had been in His very presence.

I saw that, but it has no bearing on my point. God said Nineveh would be destroyed, just like God said Satan would be condemned. Yet the ninevites were not destroyed. Is it not possible God would show mercy on Satan upon Satan's repentance, just like God showed mercy on the Ninevites when they repented? Or just like God showed mercy on the children of Israel (who had not repented) because of Moses' arguments and pleas?

exodus 32:9-14

God had reasons for changing God's mind in each of these instances in the past. We don't know what might happen in the future that might give God reason not to condemn Satan, as God once promised to destroy both the Israelites and the Ninevites.

Several people have said we know Satan's end. But at one point Jonah knew the Ninevites' end, and at one point Moses knew the Israelites' end, as well. Is it not possible that our current state of knowledge is the same as Jonah's position and Moses' position having been told God's plans, but before God showed mercy?

[Flynmonkie]

God had reasons for changing God's mind in each of these instances in the past. We don't know what might happen in the future that might give God reason not to condemn Satan, as God once promised to destroy both the Israelites and the Ninevites.

Several people have said we know Satan's end. But at one point Jonah knew the Ninevites' end, and at one point Moses knew the Israelites' end, as well. Is it not possible that our current state of knowledge is the same as Jonah's position and Moses' position having been told God's plans, but before God showed mercy?

The problem I have with this theory is that we are looking at one incident and a few verses (passage) compared to overwhelming scripture scattered in reference in various books in the Bible about another. This is simply not comparable to the situation in Jonah. First thing I see - God dealing with People vs. Former Angelic Being.

We don't see the issue with Nineveh rose on so many occasions and in the same manner anywhere else in transcript (unless I am missing something again never studied so deeply). Nor, do we see any given "probationary" timeframe. Every reference I have found to the subject is final and conclusive. With vivid descriptions on how to act, react, who-what-where-why - and what to specifically recognize etc..

But I do absolutely agree with you, "For we cannot know the mind of God" Point taken! However, this does not negate the explicit instructions of warning etc.. Christians have. And again, it seems clear Satan has been judged, no? Seems like that is what God wants us to know now. "Final destination" as Christians is of non-importance - makes no difference, (secondary issue) we know where we are headed. IMO- Let God deal with what is His to deal with.

Could be me – but some things I believe are for the mind of God. Personally, I don’t like to give so much billing to the thought.

[FreeinChrist]

I saw that, but it has no bearing on my point. God said Nineveh would be destroyed, just like God said Satan would be condemned. Yet the ninevites were not destroyed.

Overthrown. Not destroyed specifically. The Hebrew word for overthrown is haphak - to turn, to turn over, to turn around, to convert, to pervert, to change or it can mean to destroy.
God turned (haphak) the water of the Nile into blood, Pharoah changed (haphak) his mind. It is referring to destruction when it came to Sodom and Gommorrah - but tht is obvious from the text.

So what God said did occur....Ninevah changed, turned, turned around.



Is it not possible God would show mercy on Satan upon Satan's repentance, just like God showed mercy on the Ninevites when they repented? Or just like God showed mercy on the children of Israel (who had not repented) because of Moses' arguments and pleas?

The huge question is i - would Satan, the Father of lies, repent? And we have this:
Hbr 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

Hbr 2:15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Hbr 2:16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.


And of angels, there is this:
Hbr 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?
They aren't the ones inheriting salvation.

and of the angels who fell:
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

And of Satan we read:
1Pe 5:8 Be of sober {spirit,} be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Eph 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual {forces} of wickedness in the heavenly {places.}




Several people have said we know Satan's end. But at one point Jonah knew the Ninevites' end,

Jonah thought he knew Ninevah's end pehaps. Ninevah was full of people though - not fallen angels. And they turned.

I honestly do not beleive you can use Ninevah to show that Satan can be saved.

[seebs]

It is entirely possible that Satan cannot be saved.

So? If the Calvinists are right, it may be that some friend of mine cannot be saved. This doesn't change my obligation to pray for salvation for people.

[9-iron]

It seems to me that the verse in question refers to beliefs or actions, not entities.



Valid point when relating to our fellow man. However, I view the devil as a composition of evil. I think once he rebelled his entire being changed. That change brought about the essence of evilness within a spirit. However, that is getting off topic.

[Flynmonkie]

It is entirely possible that Satan cannot be saved.

As with any other situation of assuming Gods role in this matter - it is not our business. However I am curious to understand your reasoning behind the thought that it is possible. I have yet to see scripture to support this idea. Because it seems to me to support this issue starting with Genesis, Satan’s curse and Adams punishment viewed figuratively not literally. This would cause scripture to contradict and not provide balance.


So? If the Calvinists are right, it may be that some friend of mine cannot be saved. This doesn't change my obligation to pray for salvation for people.
No the Calvinists are not correct. As with any other flawed mans theology. Humans were obviously given free will. Calvinists do not recognize the balance; free will and Gods will can coexist. Grace was offered to all - however again there is no scripture support for Christians to treat Satan in this manner. Satan is not my neighbor. And this does not fit at the very least the two greatest commandments.
IMVHO

[seebs]

I say it is possible, not because I have a definite understanding, but because I do not. Not fully understanding the scope of salvation, or knowing exactly what Satan is, I allow for the possibility that Satan is an entity who cannot be saved.

I am not aware of anything telling me that I must love my enemies "unless they cannot be saved", or that I should pray only for those that can be saved. The commandments are general and were made without exceptions, and I do not currently feel that it would be edifying for me to add exceptions to them.

[Crazy Liz]

Valid point when relating to our fellow man. However, I view the devil as a composition of evil. I think once he rebelled his entire being changed. That change brought about the essence of evilness within a spirit. However, that is getting off topic.
If Satan is not a personal being, but a mere "composition" or metaphorical personification of an abstract concept, then this whole question is, of course, moot.

[Flynmonkie]

But wouldn't the application of "love my enemies" to Satan cause contradiction in scripture? In addition, my thoughts are everything that is written about our adversary Satan is very specific - not generalizing with "our enemies" or "neighbors" IOW.. Would we not see the same verses depicting Satan also if this were the case? Many opportunities in the Bible for this to relay in this fashion, and it has not been??

Again, I completely agree with you, what is Gods is Gods! What I do not understand - just might be something I should not - either for the time being - or ever. I believe He will let us know what we need to know when we need to know it.

Interesting points.

[seebs]

I don't see any contradiction. To love is not to follow.

There was a series of books I read once in which there was a well-established formally correct greeting for Satan. "Greetings and defiance, Fairest and Fallen." To oppose wrong actions is not to hate.

To hate Satan is to surrender to his will, which is that we should hate instead of loving. It does not defeat him to surrender to him.

[eldermike]

If Satan is not a personal being, but a mere "composition" or metaphorical personification of an abstract concept, then this whole question is, of course, moot.

He's not a human being, but a very real being. I think the question is moot for a different reason. He's already been judged and thrown out of the kingdom of God. The bible says that's game over.
HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

So even though this scripture is written to comfort us in security it also seals the fate of beings that have been thrown out.

[seebs]

I am not sure how I would understand that passage. There was a guy who clearly tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy spirit, who turned away, and later repented. His name was Peter, and he denied Christ three times in one day; did he not then later repent?

I do not know what the passage in Hebrews is getting at, but I think some have repented. Perhaps, while it is impossible for them to be brought to repentance, it is possible for them to come to repentence. Perhaps this is a thing which is impossible for us; all things, though, are possible for God.

I may not have much hope for Satan's future, but I am nonetheless commanded to pray for my enemies. The first exception is the easiest, but it sets the stage for all the others.

[eldermike]

I am not sure how I would understand that passage. There was a guy who clearly tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy spirit, who turned away, and later repented. His name was Peter, and he denied Christ three times in one day; did he not then later repent?

I do not know what the passage in Hebrews is getting at, but I think some have repented. Perhaps, while it is impossible for them to be brought to repentance, it is possible for them to come to repentence. Perhaps this is a thing which is impossible for us; all things, though, are possible for God.

I may not have much hope for Satan's future, but I am nonetheless commanded to pray for my enemies. The first exception is the easiest, but it sets the stage for all the others.

Well the key word in that scripture is "impossible". You say all things are possible to God and that's true, but one of those possibles includes that God can't deny himself. So if He says it's impossible then it's impossible. Asking him to change the impossible is asking Him to deny His nature which again is impossible. So as you don't understand that scripture neither do I understand what "all things are possible" means to God.

You bring up Peter, and I agree with your example; we can quickly gather it's not possible to sin your way out of the kingdom of God. Because if you could, you can't get back. Likewise you can't clean yourself up enough to get in. Satan is not coming back in, His word says to me, it's impossible.

[seebs]

I guess I am not yet convinced that the final judgment has actually been made. There are many other things in the Bible which I thought were judgments, which never came to pass; I do not have sufficient confidence in my ability to discern God's meaning to say with absolute certainty that Satan cannot be saved.

[Flynmonkie]

To hate Satan is to surrender to his will, which is that we should hate instead of loving. It does not defeat him to surrender to him.
I do believe agree with this concept, not sure how to elaborate at this time.
I would rather "guard" myself as the Bible teaches -but on the same note carry ambivalence towards Satan. IOW again - Satan’s probably decided fate is not my concern - however instructions to lead a Christian life - are. These scriptures cannot be refuted.

We are taught however to Hate sin. God hates sin - not the sinner.

Here is an outline I found on the net - I am not sure how comprehensive it is- but it raises many points (I am not necessarily advocating the originator but my notes would take forever to post)

Additional - shedding some more "in depth" light on the subject. Take a look at these facts the author has drawn in this outline. I am not sure your education on the matter this might be less than what you have already studied. If so please forgive. Just offering it in case for quick reference.

http://www.christinyou.net/pages/satan.html

Starting with just the name alone is clear enough instruction for me-
Satan: Greek word Satanas - transliteration of Heb. (36 ref.) - adversary, opponent, to resist, oppose, counteract
Also, here is additional reading on the Serpent in Genesis.
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app19.html
(taken from main site http://www.therain.org)

[JPPT1974]

For being so evil and so wicked and doing his best to turn us away from God, Satan can and never will be forgiven. As far as I am concerned.

[statrei]

For being so evil and so wicked and doing his best to turn us away from God, Satan can and never will be forgiven. As far as I am concerned.I thought that decision was left to the God of Heaven.

[9-iron]

We are taught however to Hate sin. God hates sin - not the sinner.


This is my arguement. That satan is a being unlike us humans. A being we don't fully comprehend. It is my thought that satan is sin. His mere being is the essence of sin. I'm made of flesh and bone in a human sense. I think satan's being changed when he rebelled. This new being is sin and the full manifestation of everything that sets itself against God.