Does this bother you?

[aReformedPatriot]

:preach: In a lot of debates I read around the fora I see proof-texting going on in order to prove a point. Then if someone disagrees with person A's position they respond with another scripture apparently running contrary to the position of another scripture. This dance will go back and forth for a bit until the thread dies. Very rarely do I see someone deal with the scripture(s) at hand if they disagree with how it is being interpreted. It is easier to shift the focus to a new scripture without dealing with the one(s) already presented.

Does this bother anyone?

[Sword-In-Hand]

It bother's me that people try to use scripture to disprove scripture when, since God's Word is inerrant, that's not possible.

[ZiSunka]

:preach: In a lot of debates I read around the fora I see proof-texting going on in order to prove a point. Then if someone disagrees with person A's position they respond with another scripture apparently running contrary to the position of another scripture. This dance will go back and forth for a bit until the thread dies. Very rarely do I see someone deal with the scripture(s) at hand if they disagree with how it is being interpreted. It is easier to shift the focus to a new scripture without dealing with the one(s) already presented.

Does this bother anyone?

Yep. But here's what's going on. Person A has based some part of their concept of God on Verse A. Person B has based their concept of God based on Verse B, maybe without even knowing that Verse A existed or had any bearing on the subject. Person B doesn't want to have to rethink his/her whole concept of God based on a new verse because that threatens their self-concept as an intelligent and special person, so Person B diverts Person A by posting Verse B, thinking that when Person A sees Verse B, they'll abandon their current belief system and move to a "more informed" belief system that Person B already has.

Or sometimes it's just because Person A obviously hasn't looked at the whole issue and is merely wanting to argue about why they're the grandest tiger in the forest.:D

[MrJim]

But what is the alternative? It is a problem with Protestantism anyhow--we can interpret this scripture to how we see fit. If my view doesn't match your view then you are wrong and I am right. Do you really think that if there was a way we could all sit down and reason together? How many protestant/anabaptist denoms are there? And they are all correct, since they are all "led by the Spirit", just ask them!

If you have an open enough mind you can read apologetics from any group and see their reasoning. I can understand lots of points of view and how they are created. Somewhere down the line I have to select what "I think" or "feel led" to believe is truth. Sounds just like a set up for a train wreck.

But how else is a person going to defend a point of view but select the proof passages and deflect the "other" passages that "seem" to contradict? It's debate buddy--how else are you going to get around it? It's not like they'd dare to examine the tradition of the early church or church fathers on how they'd interpret the passages...;) so it's left up to the individual--really it is. If I decide I don't like how church/pastor A says something I'll just mosey on down to church/pastor B since he agrees with me. And you know, that somehow sounds so...I don't know, wrong or something.

[aReformedPatriot]

But what is the alternative? It is a problem with Protestantism anyhow--we can interpret this scripture to how we see fit. If my view doesn't match your view then you are wrong and I am right. Do you really think that if there was a way we could all sit down and reason together? How many protestant/anabaptist denoms are there? And they are all correct, since they are all "led by the Spirit", just ask them!

If you have an open enough mind you can read apologetics from any group and see their reasoning. I can understand lots of points of view and how they are created. Somewhere down the line I have to select what "I think" or "feel led" to believe is truth. Sounds just like a set up for a train wreck.

But how else is a person going to defend a point of view but select the proof passages and deflect the "other" passages that "seem" to contradict? It's debate buddy--how else are you going to get around it? It's not like they'd dare to examine the tradition of the early church or church fathers on how they'd interpret the passages...;) so it's left up to the individual--really it is. If I decide I don't like how church/pastor A says something I'll just mosey on down to church/pastor B since he agrees with me. And you know, that somehow sounds so...I don't know, wrong or something.

Right, but thats not exactly what I am saying. What I am focusing in on is the fact that when Person A lays down their scripture to prove a point and person B disagrees, instead of Person B dealing with the content of Scripture A they will throw down scripture B to countermand the first argument. I am saying that in debate, Person B should not arbitrarily throw down another scripture without dealing first with the one already presented. This will add much depth to the discussion and challenge people in the way they approach heremeneutics.

[MrJim]

Right, but thats not exactly what I am saying. What I am focusing in on is the fact that when Person A lays down their scripture to prove a point and person B disagrees, instead of Person B dealing with the content of Scripture A they will throw down scripture B to countermand the first argument. I am saying that in debate, Person B should not arbitrarily throw down another scripture without dealing first with the one already presented. This will add much depth to the discussion and challenge people in the way they approach heremeneutics.

You're suggesting sort of a "Robert's Rule of Order" sort of thing...sounds like a good idea if you want to be a referee.

Pride stands in the way to deal with those passages that "contradict" our stances. It's not enough just to say "I don't know" so better to skip it and just go on throwing mud against the wall. It goes back to what I posted earlier--we are free to believe what we want and interpret as we see fit...

[MbiaJc]

:preach: In a lot of debates I read around the fora I see proof-texting going on in order to prove a point. Then if someone disagrees with person A's position they respond with another scripture apparently running contrary to the position of another scripture. This dance will go back and forth for a bit until the thread dies. Very rarely do I see someone deal with the scripture(s) at hand if they disagree with how it is being interpreted. It is easier to shift the focus to a new scripture without dealing with the one(s) already presented.

Does this bother anyone?

The only time it bothers me is when a person is way far left\right in their interpertation of scriptures

I had a brother tell me one time, that it was a sign of weakness and inmaturity for a person to change his beliefs. However the truth of the matter is opsite. For one to change his beliefs through debate, study, prayer is a sign of growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord and saverior Jesus Christ. And hopefully the latter is what happons now and again on this forum.

[aReformedPatriot]

The only time it bothers me is when a person is way far left\right in their interpertation of scriptures

I had a brother tell me one time, that it was a sign of weakness and inmaturity for a person to change his beliefs. However the truth of the matter is opsite. For one to change his beliefs through debate, study, prayer is a sign of growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord and saverior Jesus Christ. And hopefully the latter is what happons now and again on this forum.

I agree totally and I've seen people here who sway like the waves in the sea who are tossed to and fro. The happy middle can be had to achieve.

[TexasMike]

Proverbs 27:17-17 17 As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. :D As long as you have a heart that is OPEN to the truth then there is no harm in sparring with fellow believers for the sake of learning and getting it RIGHT. The only reason you should speak with total authority without using scripture is if you are 100% confident that you are right.

The problem I see is that we are all so deadset on what we believe based on what we have always believed, or what we WANT to believe to reconcile our minds so that we feel we are where we should be that we dont really search our hearts and ask God to reveal the truth. IM not talking about lip service, Im talking about REALLY opening ourselves up and being totally willing to allow God to reveal the truth to us in his word. And being willing to accept the truth whether it fits into our mold or not.

The Bible clearly says that God is not the author of confusion, I think our confusion is because some, if not all of us arent really ready to accept the TRUTH in the word of God and what it means to mankind.

I can tell you that if we all really got where God wanted us to be according to his will, we wouldnt have time to sit here and argue amongst ourselves online about doctrine........

We would be too busy out fulfilling The Great Commission.

[Richard]

This happens so much in the Once Saved Always Saved official poll. It does bother me, but what can we do?

[ZiSunka]

This happens so much in the Once Saved Always Saved official poll. It does bother me, but what can we do?

How about fully discussing the first verses, in context and detail, before posting countering verses?

[JPPT1974]

You're suggesting sort of a "Robert's Rule of Order" sort of thing...sounds like a good idea if you want to be a referee.

Pride stands in the way to deal with those passages that "contradict" our stances. It's not enough just to say "I don't know" so better to skip it and just go on throwing mud against the wall. It goes back to what I posted earlier--we are free to believe what we want and interpret as we see fit...

Pride does get in the way that compromises the Bible and our faith. As it is as they say, easier said then done. We are indeed free to believe what we want as we are also entitled to our faith and free to worship whoever we want to worship.

[Joykins]

Some people debate to prove a point, others debate to learn. Luckily we can learn from other people's points no matter why they are debating. Sometimes all we learn is that Person A is not a person we want to spend a lot of time talking to, and that's a very important lesson as well ;)

[Richard]

How about fully discussing the first verses, in context and detail, before posting countering verses?


The problem is that you can interpret context in more then one way, if you really wish to twist the verses.

It's an endless cycle.

[MrJim]

The problem is that you can interpret context in more then one way, if you really wish to twist the verses.

It's an endless cycle.

And it's always the other person that "twists" the scripture...

[MrJim]

We are indeed free to believe what we want as we are also entitled to our faith and free to worship whoever we want to worship.

:doh:

Perhaps in an American/Socio-Political sense--but maybe you'd want to rephrase that one just a little bit?

[Flynmonkie]

:preach: In a lot of debates I read around the fora I see proof-texting going on in order to prove a point. Then if someone disagrees with person A's position they respond with another scripture apparently running contrary to the position of another scripture. This dance will go back and forth for a bit until the thread dies. Very rarely do I see someone deal with the scripture(s) at hand if they disagree with how it is being interpreted. It is easier to shift the focus to a new scripture without dealing with the one(s) already presented.

Does this bother anyone?
:thumbsup: yep!

But be careful, when you try to post something that enlightens others to what the scripture is actually saying.(even without true opinion) You ‘re either ignored for good - or pounced on as if YOU were the enemy! ;) One thing I know for sure (based on my own very humble experience) - this only lasts for so long-- then people actually start to "study". You know I heard it once said, the proper way to study the bible is allow 2 hours for each verse, and you would still never know everything! I think we figured it up to be 29 years straight. WHEW! Sometimes I think people look too deep into scripture - and other times I think they don't look hard enough - umm that rule goes for me too at times! (Shrugs shoulders)

But what I really have a hard time with, is while in discussion, (not debate)if someone does not know the answer they get very personal, or jab and then walk away. Instead of truly trying to study and answer.. this does bug me – I just want to scream - I am not here to change your mind - I just want to study!! I don’t want to win- I want to learn! I feel I have regressed into a proverbial 5 year old "why, why, Why’s???" all the time!

If I don’t know – I hesitate to answer. I would rather humble myself than be humbled and spread misconception along the way!

I learned the hard way to find out why I believe what I believe. There will come a day when you will need an answer - how sad it can be when you don't really have it! :sigh:

[Dicy mind]

It's a lot of work but pray for wisdom and that God's will to be served and search for the answers from the context of the whole Bible in order to find the truth. Then just let the Bible talk and those who are allowed to understand will understand.

Jeremiah 23:29-31

2 Timothy 2:9-16

It's impossible to break out of the loop if we don't for some reason understand, so I believe it's best to just let the God's word do the talking and pray. For He's word is like a hammer that smashes every lie in to pieces.