All about your doctrine.... [Archive]

Jon_

21st August 2005, 01:53 AM

But if God knows who is going to choose him in advance...wouldn't it be safe to assume that God chooses us based on his foreknowledge?
That would only be true if men were capable of choosing God without him first choosing them.

There are two ways to show this to be impossible: philosophically and theologically. I'll start with the first.

God is omnipotent and completely sovereign. That means that he is all-powerful and that he is completely and totally in control of all things everywhere: even our own choices. Now, if it were not true that God is in control of everything, including our choices, he would not be sovereign. If he were not able to prevent us from doing something, or able to make us do something, then he would not be omnipotent. So, by virtue of God's omnipotence and sovereignty, we do not have unmitigated free will. Our will is always subject to God's. He alone has truly free will.

Because of this, even if we were to choose God, he would first have to "approve" of that choice. He would have to be willing it would happen. Take note of what this means. God must first choose to allow us to choose him before we can choose him. Now, if God chooses to allow us to choose him, then we must choose him because he has chosen to allow it. Because God is sovereign and omnipotent, if he chooses to allow us to choose him, then we must choose him because he willed that we choose him. If he were to will us to choose him and we didn't, then that would make God not sovereign. It would also make him not omniscient (because, we would postulate, he could not see that we would not choose him given the opportunity to do so). Basically, everything that God chooses to do will come to pass. If God chooses to allow us to choose him, we will choose him. Therefore, salvation is based on God's choice, not man's.

The Holy Scriptures also make this same argument, but in much greater detail. The Scriptures tell us precisely why we need God to choose us, why he chose us, what he did for us, how he did it, and what his promise is regarding it. There is an handy acrostic that we use to spell out the five defining doctrines of Calvinist soteriology (the study of salvation):

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistable Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

TULIP. Predestination is completely summed up in these.

Total depravity teaches that all men everywhere are completely corrupted by sin. There is nothing in him that is good or righteous (Rom 3:10, 12). He is a completely fallen creature and is incapable of loving God (Rom. 8:7). He is a spiritual corpse (Col. 2:13). Because he is spiritually dead, he cannot hear or accept the offer of the Gospel (John 3:20). The things of the Gospel are spiritual, and those who are spiritually dead cannot discern them (1 Cor. 2:14).

Unconditional election says that God has chosen his elect according to his good pleasure and not on any grounds or merit of his elect. God has chosen us because he loves us and desires to show his grace and mercy toward us. There is absolutely nothing we can do to earn this. He bestows it upon us without any requisite--without any condition.

Limited atonement typically makes people squirm, but for no good reason. It asserts that Jesus's death on the cross has accomplished everything that it was intended to do: to redeem the elect. Our Lord did not die to make "salvation possible." His sacrifice was real and effective and he really did save those chosen by his Father through his death. This consequentially means that Jesus's death is not effective for those who do not believe in him. For them, his sacrifice does not mean anything because they have refused to hear the Gospel.

Irresistable grace is the act of the Holy Spirit in regeneration. If you remember back to total depravity, we saw that all men are corpses and are incapable of hearing the Gospel, much less accepting it. Before we can accept the Gospel, we must be born again--regenerated by the Holy Spirit. In keeping with unconditional election, this divine grace is without merit on the part of the person. Remember, he is just a dead man walking. He is worthless, there is nothing redeeming in him. God regenerates him because he loves him and desires to show him mercy. Because he is a corpse, he is also not capable of fighting back. God's grace is irresistable, both because man is dead in sins and not capable of resisting, and also because God is omnipotent and sovereign. When man's will and God's will collide, man loses.

Perserverance of the saints is God's promise to always hold us in his arms and sustain us through his mercy. God's Holy Spirit is continually at work in us, sanctifying us and enabling us to defeat our human nature through the blood of Christ. God will not allow us to fall away, nor will he condemn us again for our sins. They are covered for all time by Jesus's sacrifice. True faith will not fall into apostasy and will never forsake God because he will never let it.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

oworm

21st August 2005, 01:56 AM

But if God knows who is going to choose him in advance...wouldn't it be safe to assume that God chooses us based on his foreknowledge?
That would be the Arminian view which is in direct opposition to Calvanism. God's foreknowledge isn't based on the decisions of men. It is based on his predestined purpose of his own will. Everything hangs on the doctrine of God's sovereignty,which teaches us that God is absolutely sovereign in all the affairs of his creation. :)

Rick Otto

21st August 2005, 12:07 PM

lol, Welcome to Semper Reformanda, Godz!
Just lurk & browse around. There are plenty of already asked questions you can learn from, but don't be shy to ask more. We learn doctrine better by articulating it ourselves:cool: .

CCWoody

21st August 2005, 05:13 PM

But if God knows who is going to choose him in advance...wouldn't it be safe to assume that God chooses us based on his foreknowledge?

I'll bite...

Foreknowledge and Predestination

ROMANS 8: 28 - 30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is the Truth of Scripture, evidenced clearly enough for all to see in what has been called "The Golden Chain of Predestination" in Romans 8: 28 - 30:

God's Foreknowledge of the Eternal Destiny of Men is NOT BASED on His Predestination.
God's Predestination of the Eternal Destiny of Men is BASED UPON His Foreknowledge.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son."

No one can deny that those whom God has Predestined as to their Everlasting Destiny, He first Foreknew as to their Salvation. The exact number, and the every name, of every individual of whom God has Predestined to be called, and justified, and sanctified, and glorified, these very same ones He first Foreknew that He would Save.

The question is not whether God's Predestination of the Saints as to their ultimate Glorification is, or is not, based upon His Foreknowledge as to their Salvation. God has Predestinated based upon His Foreknowledge, that is certain enough.

The Question is this, and this specifically: ON WHAT BASIS has God Foreknown those whom He would Predestine??

The Answer given by some, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of their actions towards Him.
The Answer given by others, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of His Own actions towards them.
Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

Elderone

21st August 2005, 06:11 PM

Godzchild

One of the best books I have read on Predestination is "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Loraine Boettner. Here is the table of contents.

I. Introduction

SECTION I

II. Statement of the Doctirne
III. God Has a Plan
IV. The Sovereignty of God
V. The Providence of God
VI. The Foreknowledge of God
VII. Outline of Systems
VIII. The Scriptures are the Final Authority
By Which Systems are to be Judged
IX. A Warning Against Undue Speculation

SECTION II

The Five Points of Calvinism

X. Total Inability
XI. Unconditional Election
XII. Limited Atonement
XIII. Efficacious Grace
XIV. The Perseverance of the Saints

SECTION III

Objections Commonly Urged Against the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination

XV. 1. That It Is Fatalism
XVI. 2. That It Is Inconsistent With the Free Agency
And Moral Responsibility of Man
XVII. 3. That It Makes God the Author of Sin
XVIII. 4. That It Discourages All Motives To Exertion
XIX. 5. That It Represents God As A Respecter Of Persons,
Or as Unjustly Partial
XX. 6. That It Is Unfavorable to Good Morality
XXI. 7. That it Precludes A Sincere Offer of The
Gospel To the Non-Elect
XXII. 8. That It Contradicts The Universalistic Scripture Passages

SECTION IV

XXIII. Salvation By Grace
XXIV. Personal Assurance That One is Among The Elect
XXV. Predestination In The Physical World
XXVI. A Comparison With The Mohammeden Doctrine of Predestination

SECTION V

XXVII. The Practical Importance Of The Doctrine

SECTION VI

XXVIII. Calvinism In History
Appendix
Index of Subjects
Index of Authors
Bibliography

It is an easy to read and understand 440 pages.

It is a very worthwhile addition to any Christians library.

Godzchild

21st August 2005, 10:00 PM

God must first choose to allow us to choose him before we can choose him.

Why would he allow us to choose him? Is there something he forsees in us that warrants that choosing?

For them, his sacrifice does not mean anything because they have refused to hear the Gospel.

Yes but if he didn't allow them to hear and act on the gospel and choose him then it's hardly their fault is it?

Before we can accept the Gospel, we must be born again--regenerated by the Holy Spirit. In keeping with unconditional election, this divine grace is without merit on the part of the person.

I do believe that the Holy spirit leads them and enables them to hear but I don't know about them being born again by the spirit that makes them hear. Wouldn't it be the other way round?

God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

I'm not sure but I THINK that's what I was trying to say. But I'll elaborate to be sure (mainly for my own understanding) Are you saying that say Joe Brown would one day choose Christ as his Lord...God foresaw this so enabled him to hear the gospel. However Jack Black would NOT choose Christ as Lord so, knowing this, God chooses not to call him at all. Is this what you're saying?

Jon_

21st August 2005, 11:02 PM

Why would he allow us to choose him? Is there something he forsees in us that warrants that choosing?
No, not at all. That was precisely my point. God must choose us. :)

Yes but if he didn't allow them to hear and act on the gospel and choose him then it's hardly their fault is it?
Is it God's fault that they rejected the Gospel? Or is it their fault? Who is the sinner? Who is the God-hater? If they hate God and want nothing to do with him, then is he not simply allowing them to do so? Who denied whom?

The sinner is fully responsible for his unbelief. And it is indeed his own unbelief because God does not cause anyone to disbelieve.

I do believe that the Holy spirit leads them and enables them to hear but I don't know about them being born again by the spirit that makes them hear. Wouldn't it be the other way round?
Actually, the Bible says that it is not. Regeneration precedes justification.
(Eph. 2:1-2 AV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
The Apostle Paul shows here that regeneration (quickening) comes while the elect are still dead in sin. Through the Holy Spirit, we are born again and our spiritual nature is transformed. God then gives us faith in his Son, so that we might be saved:
(Eph. 2:8 AV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Godzchild

21st August 2005, 11:21 PM

No, not at all. That was precisely my point. God must choose us. :)

Does he base that on his forknowledge of us though?

Is it God's fault that they rejected the Gospel? Or is it their fault? Who is the sinner? Who is the God-hater? If they hate God and want nothing to do with him, then is he not simply allowing them to do so? Who denied whom?

The sinner is fully responsible for his unbelief. And it is indeed his own unbelief because God does not cause anyone to disbelieve.

But if God didn't allow them to hear the gospel in the first place then what, exactly are they rejecting? Hardly their fault if they were not allowed to hear it.

Actually, the Bible says that it is not. Regeneration precedes justification.(Eph. 2:1-2 AV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The Apostle Paul shows here that regeneration (quickening) comes while the elect are still dead in sin. Through the Holy Spirit, we are born again and our spiritual nature is transformed. God then gives us faith in his Son, so that we might be saved:(Eph. 2:8 AV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Hmm I'm not sure about that part. I know that the Holy Spirit gives us the desire and the faith etc. But we need to repent and come to Christ first though right? And believe in him for us to be quickened by the Holy Spirit?

CCWoody

21st August 2005, 11:44 PM

I'm not sure but I THINK that's what I was trying to say. But I'll elaborate to be sure (mainly for my own understanding) Are you saying that say Joe Brown would one day choose Christ as his Lord...God foresaw this so enabled him to hear the gospel. However Jack Black would NOT choose Christ as Lord so, knowing this, God chooses not to call him at all. Is this what you're saying?

Not at all. What I am saying is that "Joe Brown" would one day choose Christ as his Lord BECAUSE God chose to do something to "enable" him to hear the gospel and believe. However "Jack Black" would not choose Christ BECAUSE God choose not to call him at all.

Answer these questions as true false questions as it pertains toMatthew 11: 20 - 27:

God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
TRUE or FALSE?

God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
TRUE or FALSE?

God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.
TRUE or FALSE?

you see Election has absolutely nothing to with man. God knew of certain miracles which would result in certain people freely repenting and God knew that the non-performance of those miracles would result in their freely not repenting. It is, therefore, a matter of God's choice to perform or not perform miracles at his pleasure which results in his perfectly foreknown response of men.

Godzchild

22nd August 2005, 12:07 AM

Not at all. What I am saying is that "Joe Brown" would one day choose Christ as his Lord BECAUSE God chose to do something to "enable" him to hear the gospel and believe. However "Jack Black" would not choose Christ BECAUSE God choose not to call him at all.

But I'm almost certain I had it right based on your explaination...probably my fault though.

What I mean is that God CHOSE not to call Jack based on the God's foreknowledge of Jace not choosing Christ. If God had called Jack - then Jack would have rejected the call anyway so God, knowing this, doesn't call. Is that right?

But that doesn't explain the "Many are called, few are chosen" scripture though. Ok So Jack's called but he's not chosen because God foreknew that Jack wouldn't choose God? How's that?

LOL So confusing!

Godzchild

22nd August 2005, 12:58 AM

He chooses those who he forknows would have chosen him.

Example - If I knew my husband was going to cheat on me before I married him I wouldn't choose him to marry.

How's that?

Just trying to get my head around it all ;)

CCWoody

22nd August 2005, 09:38 AM

But I'm almost certain I had it right based on your explaination...probably my fault though.

What I mean is that God CHOSE not to call Jack based on the God's foreknowledge of Jace not choosing Christ. If God had called Jack - then Jack would have rejected the call anyway so God, knowing this, doesn't call. Is that right?

But that doesn't explain the "Many are called, few are chosen" scripture though. Ok So Jack's called but he's not chosen because God foreknew that Jack wouldn't choose God? How's that?

LOL So confusing!

It is our belief that no man naturally seeks God so there would never be any foreknowledge of any person choosing God without a prior divine act toward that man. This if part of what it mean's for man to be Totally Depraved.

If any man chooses God, then it is only because of a divine act on bahalf of that man.

However, we also believe that there is an external call which reaches many men who reject God. You see, while they were confronted with the gospel, because there was no divine act to draw that man to God, he does what comes naturally to him and rejects the gospel.

Rick Otto

22nd August 2005, 08:29 PM

You are trying to figure out God's reasoning re: whom He chooses.
It sounds like you're pretty convinced of His sovereignity re: this, but you want Him to be "fair" or "logical" so you can "understand" &/or "agree" with Him re: what He chooses in this affair.

But you can't.

There's no way.

It doesn't make sense as far we know sense.

You have to trust Him. It's all for His glory, and He's all good,so "It's All Good!"lol

Ro 9:16 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ro+9:16&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Eph 1:5 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=eph+1:5&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Php 2:13 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=php+2:13&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Re 4:11 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=re+4:11&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Godzchild

22nd August 2005, 08:33 PM

Ok I'll try again....

Say God knows that if was to call jack - that jack would reject him....so he doesn't call him?

How's that?

Rick Otto

22nd August 2005, 08:48 PM

You just made what God does dependant upon what Jack would do.
Jack is not sovereign God is.
Since Adam, EVERYone rejects God. That's why EVeryone needs salvation.
Think of foreknowing, not as some kind of "clairvoyance", but as planning.
God planned creation, it wasn't a crapshoot that He could peek ahead on.

Rick Otto

22nd August 2005, 08:50 PM

with total sovereignity is that you believe it wipes out individual responsibility for sin.
It doesn't.

Godzchild

22nd August 2005, 08:52 PM

NO?

So it has nothing to do with Jack rejecting the call of God which causes God not to call?

Rick Otto

22nd August 2005, 09:04 PM

God is not reactive.
I'll do ya better later, Gotta run for now, but I found this:

"Analysis of total depravity, arising out of Scripture, witnessed to by countless events in history, and confirmed in an honest appraisal of personal experience after one has received God’s grace in renewal, led to a common creedal formulation in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. These creeds, as Shedd put it, “never shrank from affirming that the ultimate form of sin is a nature, that this nature is guilty, and that the wrath of God justly rests upon every individual of the human race because of it.”31 Protestant thought thus was echoing Paul’s when he said men are “by nature children of wrath.”32 The Belgic Confession states that man “willfully subjected himself to sin” and thereby “separated himself from God” and “corrupted his whole nature.”33 This activity by man was so “vile and abominable in the sight of God that it is sufficient to condemn all mankind.”34 The canons of the Synod of Dordt are no less specific when they declare that man “entailed on himself blindness of mind, horrible darkness, vanity, and perverseness of judgment,” and “became wicked, rebellious, and obdurate in heart and will, and impure in all his affections.”35 Nevertheless, man “retains some knowledge of God . . . and of the difference between good and evil.” This knowledge, as in Calvin, is not sufficient to bring man to a saving knowledge of God and, indeed, cannot even be used aright in the ordinary affairs of life. Man, in fact, corrupts this light and “holds it back in unrighteousness.”36

From here:
http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Gregory.html

Godzchild

22nd August 2005, 10:00 PM

Ok well I think I've got it now. Thank you all for educating me. I don't feel like such an ignorameous now. You were all very patient with me and I thank you for that.

Bless you's all!

Rick Otto

23rd August 2005, 01:37 AM

I thought for sure I'd need to get some more material on this for ya. It is the hardest part for me to articulate - why man is guilty of sin, even though he is predestined.
Actualy you could cut through all the sophistication & just say (at risk of blowing minds) "because his guilt & individual responsibility are predestined (created) too.
As clay, we get in trouble when we presume to angrily say "Why did You make me this way!" Because it questions His unquestionably good motives.

Anyway, I wanted to add one more thing in regards to this part of the above excerpt:
"Nevertheless, man “retains some knowledge of God . . . and of the difference between good and evil.”
Romans 1:20 is the verification of that statement:
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I feel it is important because it is one thing that DID survive the fall, but isn't enough to save, just enough to convict - it isn't a "redeeming quality"; but having this innate knowledge can tempt us to believe that we must have some redeeming quality(we're SO perceptive), and we immediately sieze upon our will (motives) because it is so appealing to believe we mean well & were "born innocent" when in fact, we are born guilty - spiritualy dead. So of course we need to be "born again".

And finaly, Romans 1:20 explains why & how Psalm 53:1 is so true:

Ps 53:1 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ps+53:1&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

THANKS FOR ASKIN"!!!:cool:

reformedfan

27th August 2005, 10:48 AM

the Boettenr book is excellent, so is the book, "Hard Chairs, Easy Words" by Doug Wilson.

Oh no, wait, it's called "Easy Chairs, Hard Words", buit the content is quite the former!

JamesMichael

29th August 2005, 07:12 PM

All people, everywhere, will eventually be redeemed. :thumbsup:

CoffeeSwirls

29th August 2005, 11:45 PM

All people, everywhere, will eventually be redeemed. :thumbsup:

What a relief! That means that I don't have to fear God in the least! Sanctification is null and void, the justice of God is no longer a factor and we worship a paper tiger of a god!

Seriously, can you support that quote with scripture? A verse or two won't cut it if you want to challenge positions that have been held for 2000+ years.

JamesMichael

30th August 2005, 12:50 AM

A verse or two won't cut it if you want to challenge positions that have been held for 2000+ years.

^_^ Now that statement is the most hillarious comment by a calvinist that I've read in a long time on any Christian forum I have ever visited! ^_^

A Calvinist asking for more than 2 scriptures as Biblical evidence!

:clap: Hoooooray! :clap:

If one, or two scriputres are not sufficient, then how can any scriputres be sufficient?

If one part of Gods word is no longer true, none of it is......

CoffeeSwirls

30th August 2005, 08:20 AM

If one, or two scriputres are not sufficient, then how can any scriputres be sufficient?

If one part of Gods word is no longer true, none of it is......

Agreed. However, you need to interpret scripture with scripture and mind the whole counsel of God. If you take one verse out of context, but ignore the wealth of verses that point you in the correct direction you are not properly handling the word of God and you are mocking His name.

For your own sake, I suggest you evaluate that initial comment for accuracy. Also on behalf of the mods, I ask that you not try to make this into a debate forum or a place where you can lovingly spew out hateful things about Calvinists within Semper Reformanda.

http://mail.google.com/mail/?view=att&disp=thd&attid=0.1&th=10607f45e6bc3319

JamesMichael

30th August 2005, 11:02 AM

Agreed. However, you need to interpret scripture with scripture and mind the whole counsel of God. If you take one verse out of context, but ignore the wealth of verses that point you in the correct direction you are not properly handling the word of God and you are mocking His name.

For your own sake, I suggest you evaluate that initial comment for accuracy. Also on behalf of the mods, I ask that you not try to make this into a debate forum or a place where you can lovingly spew out hateful things about Calvinists within Semper Reformanda.

Put a little sweetener in that coffee cup, no need for you to go on the offensive.

I said nothing hateful about a person, maybe a doctrine, but, I can't say that I feel the need to feel any guilt about that.

But if I offended you personally, then for that I do apologize, BUt I won't apologize for feeling no love for a doctrinme I believe is not Biblically sound.

I still found it to be very amusing though that a Calvinist would ask for only one or two scritpures, most of the time Calvinsits demand the enitre Bible to prove any other Biblical teachings credibility, while their own doctrine is not based on a satisfactory use of all of Gods word.

CoffeeSwirls

30th August 2005, 03:25 PM

JamesMichael

30th August 2005, 04:24 PM

I would have agreed with you a couple years ago. Then I did read my Bible and found that it disagreed with many of the things I was taught as a child. Imagine my surprise when I finished it and found that asking Jesus into your heart was nowhere to be found in all 66 books!

I was closing my reading of the Bible and was told about this doctrine that says that man is depraved and unfit to approach God, but in His mercy He saves some for His purposes and not ours. I was shocked, but I had found untruths from the Arminian teaching I was given and knew that I could only rely on the council of the Bible. That is why I am Calvinist. I took the Bible at face value and stopped interjecting my own beliefs over it.

Enough of that. Let's get to the only doctrine you have presented. I'll repeat your words:

All people, everywhere, will eventually be redeemed. :thumbsup:

This is the topic you have brought up. What do you plan on supporting this statement with?

Actually it was meant only as sarcasm. I believe it is Gods will for everyone to at least hear the Gospel message, and be offered the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Lord and savioe, however it is certainly true that not all people will choose to accept the offer of salvation made through a presentation of the Gospel message to them, and so it is alos trtue that not everyone everywhere will eventually be saved.

BUT it is also certainly not Gods will that only a few, and no more be saved, limitted atonement is a far too feeble theory conceived by the limitted intelectual capabilities of theological thugs.

As for your personal defense of Calvinist beliefs, I was at one time in my own life, a very profound believer, promoter, and determined defender of the Calvinist doctrine, then I really read, and thoroughly studied the Entire Bible and found Calvins teachings to be extremely lacking in Biblical integrity.

I had been brain washed by denominational leaders of the denominational church I attened to blindly accept everything they promoted as Biblical truth simply because they said it was true, how great is the light revealed to those who truly seek find Gods truth revealed to them by God, outside mans worldly influenced theological teachings.

I mean no personal offense to you, or any other person, I just cannot accept or defend a doctrine which portrays God as an unloving, unmerciful, unforgiving, unkind, being who is only concerned about a specific few.

If God only cares about that specific few, then the word of God must be changed to show that, and if it were to be changed to show that, there would be very little left of it.

The body of Christ is a living portrait of Jesus that the world outside the body of Christ looks on everyday, and we are to be influenced through this doctrine within our own ranks that God loves only a few and not all?

Should John have written For God So Loved These Few Only, that he gave his only beggotten son that if these few only believe, these few only will have the opportuinty to be saved and have everlasting life?

Or should Paul have written, If these few only will call on the name of the Lord, these few only will be saved?

Or should Paul have written to timothy: that it is only Gods will that a select few be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?

And of course Peter must have been suffering from severe indigestion when he said it was not Gods will that any should persih, and Peter was certainly not speaking about the lost when he wrote that, in fact I believe he must certainly have not only been suffering from severe indigestion, but he was most certainly writing in his sleep. ^_^

What about the last thing Jesus said to his disciples just before he ascended into heaven, Go ye into this specific region of this limitted poirtion of the world and preach the gospel only to this select few individuals whose identiy I will reveal to you alone, and these few individual will be the one and only ones who will ever be saved.

And of course we must now be aware of the fact that the Gospel does not have to be preached to all nations of the world, there are only the select few who must hear that message, and it is most probable that not all people in every nation are to be afforded the opportunity to hear that message.

Well you take it as you wish, no personal offense intended, it is just a very true fact that calvins doctrine is an extremely sarcastic misrepresentation of the word of God at best, and at worst, a very disgusting affront to the cross of Christ.

CoffeeSwirls

30th August 2005, 04:55 PM

JamesMichael

30th August 2005, 09:54 PM

You are making the exact same claims that the last troll made. Just as before, you are not supporting these claims with any scripture or even any confessions that you must be familiar with according to what you have said. You twist your questions into false accusations of a doctrine you obviously do not understand. If you are like the last troll who just recently left, you do not want to understand anything but only want to promote discord and pick fights with others.

You asked Jon in another thread how he could be so unloving. I ask you the same thing for the reasons expressed above.

How could I have ever been so ignorant, well it's no wonder, seeing as how I am such a low class no account unredeemable sinner who has absolutely no hope of ever being a partaker of salvations gift.

I must say that I am truly so sorry to have offended you so greatly.

Well alrighty then your most high and Holy lordship you win, you are absolutely right, each and everything you believe is the one and only absolutely Biblically sound Biblical teaching that has ever existed or will ever exist.

No other persons anywhere will ever have the opportunity to be redeemed, only those who will accept your doctrine will ever spend eternity in heaven.

God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross in order that only you, and your denominations members might have the absolute assurance of eternal life.

Everyone else has no hope.

Does that satisfy you?

Love?

Love is just a vulgar 4 letter curse word.

Jon_

30th August 2005, 10:10 PM

How could I have ever been so ignorant, well it's no wonder, seeing as how I am such a low class no account unredeemable sinner who has absolutely no hope of ever being a partaker of salvations gift.

I must say that I am truly so sorry to have offended you so greatly.

Well alrighty then your most high and Holy lordship you win, you are absolutely right, each and everything you believe is the one and only absolutely Biblically sound Biblical teaching that has ever existed or will ever exist.

No other persons anywhere will ever have the opportunity to be redeemed, only those who will accept your doctrine will ever spend eternity in heaven.

God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross in order that only you, and your denominations members might have the absolute assurance of eternal life.

Everyone else has no hope.

Does that satisfy you?

Love?

Love is just a vulgar 4 letter curse word.
Oddly enough, even though this is littered with error, it's curiously closer to the truth than you've ever been. Perhaps you're on the right road. I suggest you continue to affirm the exact opposite of what you believe. That should help to correct many things.

When you are quite prepared to hear rational arguments and sound Biblical instruction, return to us and we will try to disciple you. Until then, my prayers go out for you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

JamesMichael

30th August 2005, 10:30 PM

Oddly enough, even though this is littered with error, it's curiously closer to the truth than you've ever been. Perhaps you're on the right road. I suggest you continue to affirm the exact opposite of what you believe. That should help to correct many things.

When you are quite prepared to hear rational arguments and sound Biblical instruction, return to us and we will try to disciple you. Until then, my prayers go out for you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

:bow: Well alrighty then your most high and Holy King of kings and Lord of lords, who is truly supreme God over all things created, I'm all ears, please, oh please I beg of you on bended knees, please do present the one and only absolutely sound Biblical Gospel truth to this Spiritually ignorant rotten no account disgusting hell bound heathen.

BTW where is your congregations campaign headquarters located, how do I go about getting elected, or is the campaign finished?

Jon_

30th August 2005, 11:20 PM

:bow: Well alrighty then your most high and Holy King of kings and Lord of lords, who is truly supreme God over all things created, I'm all ears, please, oh please I beg of you on bended knees, please do present the one and only absolutely sound Biblical Gospel truth to this Spiritually ignorant rotten no account disgusting hell bound heathen.

BTW where is your congregations campaign headquarters located, how do I go about getting elected, or is the campaign finished?
Like I said, when you're ready to hear the truth, please come back. Until then, my prayers go out for you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

JamesMichael

30th August 2005, 11:25 PM

Like I said, when you're ready to hear the truth, please come back. Until then, my prayers go out for you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Hey Jon I am being sincere, I am far ignorant to ever hope to know anything about any hing, you are far more inteligent, Spiritually, or otherwise than I could ever hope to be!

I really do want you to teach me the one and only truly Biblically sound way that I might be saved.

You were certainly chosen by God as his one and only instrument of Biblical truth!

YES Jon, I am certain now that you are the keeper of the key to salvation and it is only through your Biblical knowledge and understandinmg that I can ever hope to be redeemed from the awful demonic bondage I am now ensnared in, please Jon please teach this pitiful disgusting heathen swine me Gods eternal truth

Jon_

31st August 2005, 01:20 AM

Hey Jon I am being sincere, I am far ignorant to ever hope to know anything about any hing, you are far more inteligent, Spiritually, or otherwise than I could ever hope to be!
I am saddened to hear that you could never hope to be more intelligent or spiritual than I am. I am such a pathetic standard to which to strive that I scarcely consider myself knowledgable of anything. It is only by the grace of God that I am a Christian and that I know what I do. For that, I owe him and him alone the thanks and glory.

I really do want you to teach me the one and only truly Biblically sound way that I might be saved.
Let's start with your objections to the five points of Calvinist soteriology, then.

1) Total Depravity

Man is completely corrupted by sin and will not willing believe in God because his heart only desires evil.

2) Unconditional Election

Because man will not naturally have faith, God cannot choose his elect based on foreseen faith. Because mankind is universally sinful, there is nothing pleasing in natural man to God that would serve as criteria for him choosing certain men. Instead, God chooses who he will according to his own divine and righteous standards. The reasons he chooses those he does are hidden from us. He has not revealed why he choses specific individuals.

3) Limited Atonement

Because Christ's sacrifice really does accomplish redemption for the elect and does not simply make it possible, and because only the elect will have faith, Christ's atonement is effective for only the elect, although it is potent enough for an infinite number of men.

4) Irresistable Grace

Because God is omnipotent, men are unable to resist the grace of regeneration worked in their hearts by the Holy Spirit. When God chooses to regenerate an individual, he does so. He is not frustrated by their free will because man's will cannot oppose God's.

5) Perserverance of the Saints

Those that God has chosen, justified, and redeemed, he also perserves, meaning that he holds them in faith for the length of their days. While they stumble and fall, they will not be utterly cast down, for the Lord will uphold them with his hands. Those that God has effectually called will perservere in faith until the end and will be raised and glorified with Christ in the end times.

You were certainly chosen by God as his one and only instrument of Biblical truth!
No. Not one and only. I am certainly his instrument, though.

YES Jon, I am certain now that you are the keeper of the key to salvation and it is only through your Biblical knowledge and understandinmg that I can ever hope to be redeemed from the awful demonic bondage I am now ensnared in, please Jon please teach this pitiful disgusting heathen swine me Gods eternal truth
This would amount to Gnostic heresy. I am not the "keeper of the key to salvation," that title belongs to Christ alone. To him belongs the praise, power, and glory. I am but an humble, unprofitable servant, doing only what is my duty, and that very poorly. As Job says, I am a worm, one deserving of God's heel. But for love of his Son Jesus Christ and for love of me, God has accepted Christ's sacrifice for my sins as payment for the debt I had incurred. For that a temporary life of temporal service could never pay, but I do what I am enabled to do in his name. For it is truly his love, grace, and mercy that sustains me. Without him, I am nothing.

That alone is what you will receive from me, brother. My cause is not to deceive you, but to show you the perfect and amazing love of God. My cause is to show you the sound doctrine of Scripture for we are commanded to love God with, among other things, our minds. Knowing God is a necessary part of faithful and obedient Christian living. In this, I would seek to disciple you according to the truths of the Word of God.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

JamesMichael

31st August 2005, 02:37 AM

I am saddened to hear that you could never hope to be more intelligent or spiritual than I am. I am such a pathetic standard to which to strive that I scarcely consider myself knowledgable of anything. It is only by the grace of God that I am a Christian and that I know what I do. For that, I owe him and him alone the thanks and glory.

Let's start with your objections to the five points of Calvinist soteriology, then.

1) Total Depravity

Man is completely corrupted by sin and will not willing believe in God because his heart only desires evil.

2) Unconditional Election

Because man will not naturally have faith, God cannot choose his elect based on foreseen faith. Because mankind is universally sinful, there is nothing pleasing in natural man to God that would serve as criteria for him choosing certain men. Instead, God chooses who he will according to his own divine and righteous standards. The reasons he chooses those he does are hidden from us. He has not revealed why he choses specific individuals.

3) Limited Atonement

Because Christ's sacrifice really does accomplish redemption for the elect and does not simply make it possible, and because only the elect will have faith, Christ's atonement is effective for only the elect, although it is potent enough for an infinite number of men.

4) Irresistable Grace

Because God is omnipotent, men are unable to resist the grace of regeneration worked in their hearts by the Holy Spirit. When God chooses to regenerate an individual, he does so. He is not frustrated by their free will because man's will cannot oppose God's.

5) Perserverance of the Saints

Those that God has chosen, justified, and redeemed, he also perserves, meaning that he holds them in faith for the length of their days. While they stumble and fall, they will not be utterly cast down, for the Lord will uphold them with his hands. Those that God has effectually called will perservere in faith until the end and will be raised and glorified with Christ in the end times.

No. Not one and only. I am certainly his instrument, though.

This would amount to Gnostic heresy. I am not the "keeper of the key to salvation," that title belongs to Christ alone. To him belongs the praise, power, and glory. I am but an humble, unprofitable servant, doing only what is my duty, and that very poorly. As Job says, I am a worm, one deserving of God's heel. But for love of his Son Jesus Christ and for love of me, God has accepted Christ's sacrifice for my sins as payment for the debt I had incurred. For that a temporary life of temporal service could never pay, but I do what I am enabled to do in his name. For it is truly his love, grace, and mercy that sustains me. Without him, I am nothing.

That alone is what you will receive from me, brother. My cause is not to deceive you, but to show you the perfect and amazing love of God. My cause is to show you the sound doctrine of Scripture for we are commanded to love God with, among other things, our minds. Knowing God is a necessary part of faithful and obedient Christian living. In this, I would seek to disciple you according to the truths of the Word of God.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

OK Jon, now please don't get offended by this, BUT, I must point out to you that you, among others here in these forums, have constantly demanded scriptrues to prove other peoples beliefs outside your own, and yet in this post I saw not even ONE scripture to support yours.

If you want me to be completley fair about considering the Biblical validity your beliefs you must also present valid Biblical evidence to supprot it's scriptural integrity.

And if that proof is to be entirely sound your posts must alos deal with any other Biblical passages which might in anyway contradict your beliefs, God is not a liar, if he said it, it is settled forever, he does not contradict himself. ;)

Jon_

31st August 2005, 08:33 AM

OK Jon, now please don't get offended by this, BUT, I must point out to you that you, among others here in these forums, have constantly demanded scriptrues to prove other peoples beliefs outside your own, and yet in this post I saw not even ONE scripture to support yours.

If you want me to be completley fair about considering the Biblical validity your beliefs you must also present valid Biblical evidence to supprot it's scriptural integrity.

Total Depravity:
(Rom. 3:10-20 AV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15) Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16) Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17) And the way of peace have they not known:
18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Unconditional Election:
(Rom. 9:11 AV) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth:)
Limited Atonement:
(Matt. 1:21 AV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Irresistable Grace:
(Is. 55:11 AV) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Perseverance of the Saints:
(Ps. 37:23-24 AV) The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24) Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
And if that proof is to be entirely sound your posts must alos deal with any other Biblical passages which might in anyway contradict your beliefs, God is not a liar, if he said it, it is settled forever, he does not contradict himself.
It is upon you to show that any passages contradict these because I do not know of any.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

JamesMichael

31st August 2005, 10:20 AM

Total Depravity:(Rom. 3:10-20 AV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15) Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16) Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17) And the way of peace have they not known:
18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Unconditional Election:(Rom. 9:11 AV) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth:)

Limited Atonement:(Matt. 1:21 AV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Irresistable Grace:(Is. 55:11 AV) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Perseverance of the Saints:(Ps. 37:23-24 AV) The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24) Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

It is upon you to show that any passages contradict these because I do not know of any.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I'll be pretty busy today Jon, my son, who is a deputy Sheriffhere in Oklahoma is bringing his wife and son for a visit I haven't seen them for a few weeks so I won't be online much, my Grandson thinks poppa is all that and a big bag of Chocolate bars!

BUT I will say this, someone here in the forums recently said that I would have to post more than one or two scriptures to give satisfactory credence to my own beliefs, and Jon, on each of your points, you have only used one, or two scriptures as your Biblical evidence to support the credence of your beliefs?

Is that an equally fair requriement, or meant only for non Calvinists? :scratch:

Let me say this as well, the only part of your doctrine I disagree with is the LIP portion of TULIP.

So when I do have the opportunity to return, which might very well be after the weekend as I will also be involved in a very big anual Church event this weekend, we will address those points in particular.

Until then please see if you can find any other satisfactory scriptures to better support those points, and I also will look for scriptures to better support my own beliefs....:wave:

BBAS 64

31st August 2005, 10:36 AM

I'll be pretty busy today Jon, my son, who is a deputy Sheriffhere in Oklahoma is bringing his wife and son for a visit I haven't seen them for a few weeks so I won't be online much, my Grandson thinks poppa is all that and a big bag of Chocolate bars!

BUT I will say this, someone here in the forums recently said that I would have to post more than one or two scriptures to give satisfactory credence to my own beliefs, and Jon, on each of your points, you have only used one, or two scriptures as your Biblical evidence to support the credence of your beliefs?

Is that an equally fair requriement, or meant only for non Calvinists? :scratch:

Let me say this as well, the only part of your doctrine I disagree with is the LIP portion of TULIP.

So when I do have the opportunity to return, which might very well be after the weekend as I will also be involved in a very big anual Church event this weekend, we will address those points in particular.

Until then please see if you can find any other satisfactory scriptures to better support those points, and I also will look for scriptures to better support my own beliefs....:wave:

Good Day, James

I would like to remind you this is not a fourm for debate. Jon has given his Scripture, he is under NO opligation to support his view your question has been answered IMHO. If you have any futher questions that is an other story.

Peace to u,

Bill

CoffeeSwirls

31st August 2005, 11:33 AM

I also will look for scriptures to better support my own beliefs....:wave:

That's the foundation for the problem. You want to treat the Bible like a wax nose that you can shape into an image of yourself. For the record, you are on my ignore list, so if you respond to this I'll never know it. You were a troll as pentecostal evangelist and you are a troll as JamesMichael. You lie about who you are so we should have no reason to believe you when you say what you are.

I'm through feeding this troll.

Elect

10th September 2005, 07:20 PM

But if God knows who is going to choose him in advance...wouldn't it be safe to assume that God chooses us based on his foreknowledge?
No, for God is the cause of us choosing Him.

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple. (Psalm 65:4)

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Matthew 11:25-27)

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (Matthew 13:10-11)

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Is there something he forsees in us that warrants that choosing?
No.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Romans 9:11-13)

but if he didn't allow them to hear and act on the gospel and choose him then it's hardly their fault is it?
God still holds man accountable.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (ROMANS 9:14-24)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:18-21)