Did she go to Heaven

[HeHasHelpedMe]

This is got to do with BTK. He killed an 11 year old girl. Will she go to heaven? Did she know the Lord? Did anyone talk to her about the Lord? Why should she not be able to go heaven because someone took her life before she could know Jesus? Will BTK be able to be forgiven and be let into heaven while this innocent 11 year old child may not of known about Christ? Does god accept good people that do not know about the Lord? Why should they suffer if it was never put out in front of the word of Christ? They may of lid a perfect life but just did not know the Lord yet.

[TwinCrier]

Who goes to heaven isn't decided by what we deem as "good" but what God deems acceptable. I doubt an 11 year old is capable od making a decision for Christ yet, but God is just to little children. As for BTK, if he accepts Christ's forgiveness he is entitled to the same heaven as the rest of us saved sinners. There is no one who lead a perfect life, except Jesus.

[crossrunner]

Who goes to heaven isn't decided by what we deem as "good" but what God deems acceptable. I doubt an 11 year old is capable od making a decision for Christ yet, but God is just to little children. As for BTK, if he accepts Christ's forgiveness he is entitled to the same heaven as the rest of us saved sinners. There is no one who lead a perfect life, except Jesus.

^
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What she said! :)

[JimfromOhio]

Jesus Himself blessed the children which means before they understand God's Grace of Salvation, it is UP to God who decides who will enter into Heaven. God KNOWS each person's heart BEFORE they were BORN.

All (children and mentally challanged) who die before they reach the understanding of salvation and embrace the gospel by faith, are graciously saved eternally by God through the work of Jesus Christ. In other words, infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, Who works when, where, and how He pleases. So also are all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 ).

Born in sin, yet having not committed sin as an act of the will? The key issue here is one of comprehension of, or the understanding of the Gospel message. How can God judge someone (i.e. infants) who can't even understand words? And what about those who are older, but can't understand words? Like a severely retarded (mentally-challenged) person? Will they be held accountable for their sins?

From reading the bible, Jesus never had an encounter with a child and lead him to faith. He encounter a lot of people; preached to a lot of crowds, and a lot of people believed, but there is never any indication about a child believing.

Jesus praised children for their innocent faith; "for such is the kingdom of heaven." While this is most probably an endorsement of healthy character and attitudes, it is also an approval of children in general. Jesus' teachings concerning children show the highest love and respect (Matt. 18:1-6).

David makes a proclamation which many feel reveals the eternal state of an infant. 2 Sam. 12:23 states,

"But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."

The condition of salvation for adults is personal faith. Infants and mentally challenged souls are incapable of fulfilling this condition. For this reason, many have suggested that there is an age of accountability. By this, it is understood that at a certain time in a person's life he/she becomes aware of personal responsibility for wrong actions.

We need never fear about God being unjust. He cannot be. His mercy and justice are from everlasting to everlasting. I therefore conclude, that there will be no children in hell. There will also be no retarded, or otherwise mentally-incapacitated individuals there, those who cannot fully comprehend and understand what Christ has accomplished on their behalf at Calvary.

I hope this helps. :)

[abbygirlforever]

I agree with JimFromOhio. God is just and would never condemn a person unable to comprehend the gift of salvation (ie children, babies, mentally incapacitated, ect.). I do believe that there is an "age of accountability" and that said age differs from person to person, but that there is a general area of age that almost everyone falls under. Is an 11-year old able to comprehend salvation? Depends on the 11 year old.

I would put forth a guess (since I don't know for sure how God would rule on this) that since God would have it that none should perish and is loving and merciful as well as just, the 11-year old is in Heaven. Unless she was offered the gospel message, understood it, and denied it, then she is with God.

[Flynmonkie]

This is got to do with BTK. He killed an 11 year old girl. Will she go to heaven? Did she know the Lord? Did anyone talk to her about the Lord? Why should she not be able to go heaven because someone took her life before she could know Jesus? Will BTK be able to be forgiven and be let into heaven while this innocent 11 year old child may not of known about Christ? Does god accept good people that do not know about the Lord? Why should they suffer if it was never put out in front of the word of Christ? They may of lid a perfect life but just did not know the Lord yet.


I believe very much like Twin and Jim believe. We can never know ones heart condition, (intent of the heart) this is between God and that person alone. Some people believe that God will not spare people unless they believe in Him or have a full understanding. But we believe that God judges by intent of the heart. Or even personal knowledge. The Bible tells us to come to Him as little children. That “for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”. God is Merciful and just if He is anything. You cannot get into heaven by leading a “good” life. People are incapable of true good without God. But I do believe that God has reserved a special place in heaven for those people whom are challenged in this life. In fact, I believe they are our blessings to enjoy while we are here. But that is just my personal opinion.

Regarding BTK… If He is truly remorseful for what He has done, I believe God is just, He will be forgiven. But again we can never truly know ones heart condition. However I do believe He should be locked up.

Personally, I try never to think about these things. We don’t need to worry about anyone else’s salvation God has it covered. The Bible tells us that this is Gods business alone. Our role here is sharing Gods Love and Mercy with others, by setting an example with our words, actions and attitudes. Making sure our walk with Him stays on track so we can effectively witness with the tools He has given us.

[arunma]

Maybe I'm out of the loop, here. Who is BTK?

[TwinCrier]

Maybe I'm out of the loop, here. Who is BTK?The BTK Killer Dennis Rader.

[arunma]

Oh, that guy. Thanks.

[ZiSunka]

If you are talking about Josephine, the first little girl he killed, then yes, she was a Christian and is in heaven now. She is remembered for having faith like her mother.

[Willo]

I think an eleven year old can and does have the knowledge that is needed for salvation. I know personally that at the age of 10, I understood sin, and my need for the Saviour.

Plus I have seen alot of kids younger that seem to understand it.

So we cannot say that any set age is the 'magic' number of knowing about salvation, its a case by case basis

[No Swansong]

,

[JimfromOhio]

I think an eleven year old can and does have the knowledge that is needed for salvation. I know personally that at the age of 10, I understood sin, and my need for the Saviour.

Plus I have seen alot of kids younger that seem to understand it.

So we cannot say that any set age is the 'magic' number of knowing about salvation, its a case by case basis


Depends on their mental maturity. I have seen many who are not able to comprehend until they are older. This is why I believe only God decides WHEN a person is able to comprehend the Doctrine of Salvation because only God can see inside a person's heart and motives why they chose to accept or not accept Christ.

[ZiSunka]

Depends on their mental maturity. I have seen many who are not able to comprehend until they are older. This is why I believe only God decides WHEN a person is able to comprehend the Doctrine of Salvation because only God can see inside a person's heart and motives why they chose to accept or not accept Christ.

But this goes back to the idea of Age of Accountability, an idea that is not supported Biblically. Usually the basis for this idea is what David said when his son with Bethseba died:

22 David answered, "As long as the child was alive, I fasted and cried. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But why should I fast now that he's dead? Can I bring him back? [Someday] I'll go to him, but he won't come back to me."

And what Jesus said to his disciples when they wanted to send the children away without a blessing:

13 Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven." 15 And He laid His hands on them and departed from there.

But these hardly are affirmative proof that all children under a certain ability to reason go directly to heaven. Historically, David's remarks have been interpreted to mean that the child is in the grave and that someday David would also be in the grave. It's only in the 20th century that the current popular interpretation gained acceptance.

And Jesus's words don't necessarily mean that all children go to heaven, since we, people of faith who are still alive, also belong to the kingdomof heaven. He was remarking about the faith of little ones, as demonstrated by all his other statements about children (unless you have the faith of a child, you will be no means enter the kingdom of heaven, and whoever makes himself as humble as a little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven).

Christ wasn't taking about heaven as a place where good dead people go, he was talking about the state of people of faith here on earth, and he wasn't saying that all children who haven't yet developed the ability to understand sin go to heaven, he was saying that faith is the key ingredient to entering into the kingdom of God.

There is no direct or indirect evidence that children get into heaven just because they are too young to understand sin.

[JPPT1974]

I hope that she was a Christian and is in heaven. Because that is all I will say and leave it at that. As I prefer not to question somebody's faith and get into a huge and somewhat heated debate. But even though you want people to be in heaven, that is up to them. And accepting Christ is up to them. All we can do is pray and hoped that they do accept Christ as Savior & Lord.

[ZiSunka]

You are right, the only way to know for sure somebody went to heaven it to know whether or not they had saving faith in Christ. I sometimes worry that parents put way to much stock in the idea that their children are cover by this invisible "age of accountability" clause in the covenant and don't put enough time or effort into instilling saving faith into their children. :(

[HeHasHelpedMe]

Ok, but would she of gone to heaven if she had been told about Christ, but did not yet accept it. What if she was still not sure exactly what Christianity is. I'm just trying to get opinions. I pray that she is with our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Flynmonkie]

Ok, but would she of gone to heaven if she had been told about Christ, but did not yet accept it.
If she had been told - and understood - and rejected it. No. But again we have no idea her capacity of knowledge.

What if she was still not sure exactly what Christianity is.
Again, no one knows someone else's heart condition, only God knows these things. If she did not understand, God is merciful and loving and I believe in my heart He would protect that child.

Try to think of it like this, a first grader is not going to be tested in math by college algebra standards. (This is probably a horrible analogy, but it is late and the only one I can think of at the moment)

Because God is merciful, he judges by standards of expectations only from that individual.

God does not expect us to be rocket scientists. If an 11 year old child is still pondering the understanding of God, He knows their heart condition, their mental capacity for learning.. or what path He has them on. Some would argue that they knew right from wrong at an early age. However, right and wrong by society standards and Gods standards are two different things. C.S. Lewis is a writer he used a phrase “law of human nature” in one of His books “Mere Christianity”. Not that I follow every thing he says, but I found this to be interesting.

Sometimes people are raised with a “should act” this way or that way or not. Some call it refinement, others call it education etc..

There is a basic law amongst humans that things should be done a certain way. For instance, a child whom has been taught to share obviously is doing something good when he or she does share. However, the why we share is left to the thought that it is “good”. Usually it is a self-gratifying thing. If someone does a good thing it makes him or her feel better and they believe “hmm, I am a good person for doing this good thing”.

But the Bible clearly tells us why we share, as Christians we share because God has shared with us Christ has shared with us. Because we recognize this –is why we share. Out of obedience or reverence to God. We also are taught that we can do no good thing without God!
Romans 3:12
All have turned away from God; all have gone wrong. No one does good, not even one."

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Galatians 6:2,10 Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

So people can seem to do things that are “good” yet they have no idea of the true meaning behind why they are doing good.

I thought this way for many years, even after I had been saved and had faith. It took many years for me to understand what God wanted me to know. But I thought I had it all understood. It taught me that sometimes even when people think they know someone else’s thoughts – we could never know them or understand them as God does. So back to the same answer – we just have no idea what others know or don’t know. This is Gods responsibility alone. Our role here is to share what we do know, and build our relationship with God minding our personal walk. It is just not something we can answer.

[ZiSunka]

Here's the bottom line:
We can't know for certain whether or not this little girl, or any little child, is in heaven or not because we don't know how the Lord deals with children or even if he treats children differently than he treats adults. All we can know for sure is that the Lord is incapable of being unfair. Jesus assured us that God does not see children as less human than adults. He clearly loves children because of their faith and humbleness. Faith and humbleness are characteristics that admit a person to heaven. Therefore, we have every reason to believe that children do go to heaven. But it is not because they haven't reached an age of accountability or because they can't understand the gospel. It is because God has gifted them with faith. He said it in three gospels, "These little ones have faith in Me." Then he said to them, "I can guarantee this truth: Unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

To me that means that children are in the kingdom of heaven because they have faith, not because they don't understand sin.

[Ginny]

talking about the age of accountability tied to someone's understanding of Jesus.... then could not the same be said for an adult? (rhetorical question)

Someone could be an adult and truly not understand the whole Christian concept. Just b/c one "appears" of age, does not necessarily make them accountable...(does it?)

[Flynmonkie]

Ginny, I believe this to be very true.. :)

[lawtonfogle]

did the spirit come to her, 'asking to be let in'. If yes, and she said no, then she blashemied the spirit, and died before she let the Holy Spirit in. Then sorry, but she is not in heaven. I myself do not know if spirit came to her, and mostlikely it was based on how she was raised. Could the killer be let in heaven, yes he could.

The question is, would you forgive him if you knew that she was not a christain. Could you?

[ZiSunka]

If yes, and she said no, then she blashemied the spirit, and died before she let the Holy Spirit in.

That's not what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. If blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was rejecting the gospel when you first hear it, or refusing to have faith in Jesus Christ, then very few people would ever get saved because we would all have unforgivable sin on our records.

I heard the gospel dozen of times before I finally accepted it. In fact, I used to rally against Christianity, trying to steer others away from it. I rejected the Good News many, many times, even though I now know the Spirit was trying to reach me. If that was what blasphemy of the Spirit was, I would still be lost because at least some of my sins would be unforgivable.

In fact, that definition of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is very much in line with what JWs, mormons and other heretical groups believe.

But traditionally, orthodox Christianity has taught for two millenia that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to use the name of the Spirit for unholy purposes or for personal gain or to cause people to leave the faith. For example, people who say they have a message from the Lord, then say something that is completely different from the revealed will of God as committing this unforgivable sin. Back in the mid 1800's, a lot of new religions popped up in the US. One of them called itself, "New Revelation Methodists." This group had a leader that told his followers that he was in direct communication with God and that God told him that all the women members should leave their husbands and become his wife. He said that God told him that all of his children would become evangelists and that if he had many wives, he would be blessed with many children and the gospel would spread dramatically through his lineage. Many people were tripped up by this teaching because they wanted to believe that God had chosen them for this special mission of creating more evangelists, so wives left husbands and husbands let wives go sleep with this preacher and thus obey the word of the Lord. This preacher, this liar in holy cloth, directly defiled everyone of these men and women using the authority of God in vain by blaspheming the Holy Spirit by claiming to have heard directly from Him that they should commit abominable sin in the name of the Lord. That man shall not be forgiven, because he has committed the unforgivable sin.

[JPPT1974]

Even though you can't ask God to save your children yourself. Because they are accountable for God themselves. Because God wants them and not you, to ask His Son Jesus into their hearts as Savior & Lord. And repent of their sins. I had a pastor who said that he thought that his daughter was saved because of being a pastor. Then they had a long talk in the car one night. And she admit that she really wasn't saved and that she was going with the flow all due to him. And that night, she was saved and repented and became born-again. They and not we, need to accept Christ themselves. Not let us ask Christ to let Him come into their hearts.

[lawtonfogle]

That's not what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. If blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was rejecting the gospel when you first hear it, or refusing to have faith in Jesus Christ, then very few people would ever get saved because we would all have unforgivable sin on our records.

I heard the gospel dozen of times before I finally accepted it. In fact, I used to rally against Christianity, trying to steer others away from it. I rejected the Good News many, many times, even though I now know the Spirit was trying to reach me. If that was what blasphemy of the Spirit was, I would still be lost because at least some of my sins would be unforgivable.

In fact, that definition of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is very much in line with what JWs, mormons and other heretical groups believe.

But traditionally, orthodox Christianity has taught for two millenia that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to use the name of the Spirit for unholy purposes or for personal gain or to cause people to leave the faith. For example, people who say they have a message from the Lord, then say something that is completely different from the revealed will of God as committing this unforgivable sin. Back in the mid 1800's, a lot of new religions popped up in the US. One of them called itself, "New Revelation Methodists." This group had a leader that told his followers that he was in direct communication with God and that God told him that all the women members should leave their husbands and become his wife. He said that God told him that all of his children would become evangelists and that if he had many wives, he would be blessed with many children and the gospel would spread dramatically through his lineage. Many people were tripped up by this teaching because they wanted to believe that God had chosen them for this special mission of creating more evangelists, so wives left husbands and husbands let wives go sleep with this preacher and thus obey the word of the Lord. This preacher, this liar in holy cloth, directly defiled everyone of these men and women using the authority of God in vain by blaspheming the Holy Spirit by claiming to have heard directly from Him that they should commit abominable sin in the name of the Lord. That man shall not be forgiven, because he has committed the unforgivable sin.

maybe i did not word it right. You may blashemy the Spirit many times, but only when you die with out accepting the spirit does it become permanent.

[ZiSunka]

maybe i did not word it right. You may blashemy the Spirit many times, but only when you die with out accepting the spirit does it become permanent.

What is your Biblical basis for this belief?

[Flynmonkie]

maybe i did not word it right. You may blashemy the Spirit many times, but only when you die with out accepting the spirit does it become permanent.
Hi! :wave:
Could you clarify what your definition of Blasphemy is with scripture context? The reason I ask is because your treading a thin line here.. Even Christians make the mistake of resisting the Holy Spirit - if not we would be considered sinless, correct? So I do not consider Blasphemy and resisting being so tied together and loosely termed. So do you mind elaborating on this?

[Christian7340]

This is got to do with BTK. He killed an 11 year old girl. Will she go to heaven? Did she know the Lord? Did anyone talk to her about the Lord? Will BTK be able to be forgiven and be let into heaven while this innocent 11 year old child may not of known about Christ? Does god accept good people that do not know about the Lord? Why should they suffer if it was never put out in front of the word of Christ? They may of lid a perfect life but just did not know the Lord yet.

I think the simple answer here is that it is impossible to know. Any attempt to answer this question would be strictly hearsay and opinion. I think we should leave this to God and be willing to admit that we just have no clue.
That being said, I know I might be getting myself into hot water on this here Ana/Baptist thread, but I think that as long as she was baptized she would be saved.

Why should she not be able to go heaven because someone took her life before she could know Jesus?

This really does bother me a great deal when I read things such as this. In a way this to me seems as if you are almost stating that God owes her salvation and eternal life in Heaven simply because of her age. The simple fact is that God doesn't owe us anything! We owe God everything and should acknowledge that we all deserve eternal punishment.

[JPPT1974]

Hi! :wave:
Could you clarify what your definition of Blasphemy is with scripture context? The reason I ask is because your treading a thin line here.. Even Christians make the mistake of resisting the Holy Spirit - if not we would be considered sinless, correct? So I do not consider Blasphemy and resisting being so tied together and loosely termed. So do you mind elaborating on this?

Blasphemy means cursing while resisting means not to look upon or lean upon. Christians do resist the Holy Spirit but what sets them apart from non-believers however is that they can ask forgiveness from the Lord. Because the Lord grants them forgiveness and repentance.

[93fleetwoodlowlow]

one of them situations where we wish we knew what the "age of accountability" is.

[Athanasian Creed]

Jesus Himself blessed the children which means before they understand God's Grace of Salvation, it is UP to God who decides who will enter into Heaven. God KNOWS each person's heart BEFORE they were BORN.

All (children and mentally challanged) who die before they reach the understanding of salvation and embrace the gospel by faith, are graciously saved eternally by God through the work of Jesus Christ. In other words, infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, Who works when, where, and how He pleases. So also are all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 ).

Born in sin, yet having not committed sin as an act of the will?


Jim, i agree totally with what you said above because it is Scriptural (except for the indented part) ! :thumbsup:

Seems to me from chatting with you previous that you are a Calvinist right ?? However, so much of what you say above is not Calvinist teaching at all ! Calvin, nor leading Calvinistic teachers today do NOT believe nor teach anyone has free will.

"God does not foreknow the free decisions of people to believe in Him because there aren't any such free decisions to know"
John Piper, Piper & Staff, "TULIP:...", pg. 22

"...the foreknowledge of God...(is) not (based) upon some forseen act of positive volition on the part of man."
James White

Calvin (and Augustine, whose doctrines Calvin developed and expounded) also taught that all non-elect babies who die go to Hell ! God only loves his elect and hates those billions He has reprobated, even babies who

"...God in his mercy selects and predestinates a (certain) number...for eternal life...From the rest of mankind...God withholds his grace, and will condemn them even if they should die in infancy..."
John Horsch, "History of Christianity"

Thank God for one who was a "leaky" Calvinist at best, Charles Spurgeon who asked the question-

"Shall we never be able to drive into men's minds the truth that predestination and free agency are both facts."
"The Best Bread: Sermons Preached in 1887", pg. 109

Jim, i'm not pointing this out to be contentious but out of curiousity on how a Calvinist can believe what is not taught in Calvinism. :scratch:;)



Ray :wave: